*Spoiler* Rey's Force abilities

[maxetius]

Overall the hate is still tame, people refusing to look at events from different angles in their attempts to bash it - which is expected.

 

I enjoyed how Ben was the prime mover of the plot, everything that happened, unlocking Rey's force potential, ignoring Finn even though he knew something was wrong, etc, was due to an action he took.

Edited December 27, 2015 by maxetius

[magnashear]

Even in star wars canon there's been a lot of instances of people using the force in big ways enen though they were untrained. If you look at the eu there's a ton of it. Darth Zannah was snapping people's necks at 6 years old with no training. There was even a guy who could use the force to make stars go supernova with no prior training I think.

[Cbaoth]

rather then dismiss it as crap, why not just wait for episode 8 to come out. it's possiable Rey is the most powerful force user ever. she might even dwarf her grandfathers power

 

Edit: BTW can we get a fourm moderater to change this topic's title to hide the spoiler?

 

And this is a great theory to be sure mate, and the thought did cross my mind. But tbh I doubt there will be any explanation for this in ep. 8.

[DarknessInLight]

Even in star wars canon there's been a lot of instances of people using the force in big ways enen though they were untrained. If you look at the eu there's a ton of it. Darth Zannah was snapping people's necks at 6 years old with no training. There was even a guy who could use the force to make stars go supernova with no prior training I think.

 

The EU is not canon. Not anymore.

 

However, the interesting part for this was that Rey is able to pick up a lightsaber without any formal training in the Jedi arts. There are those of you saying, "so what?" and "it shouldn't matter". It does matter. Luke was trained by Yoda and Obi Wan for 2 full years before he ran off to confront Darth Vader on Bespin. They both warned him to not go, that it was more important that he complete his training. Vader overpowered him on Bespin and he was lucky that all he lost was a hand.

 

We can go one step further with this if that's not convincing enough for you. Before the fall of the Order, the Jedi trained Padawan Learners to eventually become Jedi Knights, a process that typically took 15-20 years. There was training in the Jedi arts, history, etc., and that was all before they were apprenticed to a Master to complete their training and become Knights. If Rey, who was NEVER trained in either the Jedi arts or the Force, can pick up a lightsaber and defeat Kylo Ren, a trained Force sensitive who is strong enough in the Force to stop blaster bolts in mid-air, then it stands to reason that the Younglings and Padawans in the Jedi Temple would have been strong enough to defeat Darth Vader when he marched on it.

 

This is all established canon, yet The Force Awakens abandons the canon of both the Original Trilogy and the Prequels with this non-sensical duel. Why? There is no acceptable explanation for this.

[SithKoriandr]

The EU is not canon. Not anymore.

 

However, the interesting part for this was that Rey is able to pick up a lightsaber without any formal training in the Jedi arts. There are those of you saying, "so what?" and "it shouldn't matter". It does matter. Luke was trained by Yoda and Obi Wan for 2 full years before he ran off to confront Darth Vader on Bespin. They both warned him to not go, that it was more important that he complete his training. Vader overpowered him on Bespin and he was lucky that all he lost was a hand.

 

We can go one step further with this if that's not convincing enough for you. Before the fall of the Order, the Jedi trained Padawan Learners to eventually become Jedi Knights, a process that typically took 15-20 years. There was training in the Jedi arts, history, etc., and that was all before they were apprenticed to a Master to complete their training and become Knights. If Rey, who was NEVER trained in either the Jedi arts or the Force, can pick up a lightsaber and defeat Kylo Ren, a trained Force sensitive who is strong enough in the Force to stop blaster bolts in mid-air, then it stands to reason that the Younglings and Padawans in the Jedi Temple would have been strong enough to defeat Darth Vader when he marched on it.

 

This is all established canon, yet The Force Awakens abandons the canon of both the Original Trilogy and the Prequels with this non-sensical duel. Why? There is no acceptable explanation for this.

 

Ren's training was uncomplete, he was holding back and he was shot by a bolt that normally killed others while sending them flying 20ft, which instead of killing him, it kept him bleeding out.

[DarknessInLight]

Ren's training was uncomplete, he was holding back and he was shot by a bolt that normally killed others while sending them flying 20ft, which instead of killing him, it kept him bleeding out.

 

Incomplete yes, but powerful enough to use Force Stasis, something I would guess takes years to get good at. Rey, on the other hand, had no formal training, yet could use Jedi Mind Tricks and wield her Grandfather's lightsaber as if she had been doing it all her life, when thousands of Padawan learners before her had to undergo a strict training regimen to even pick up a saber, including her father and grandfather.

Edited December 28, 2015 by DarknessInLight

[DarthDymond]

The EU is not canon. Not anymore.

 

However, the interesting part for this was that Rey is able to pick up a lightsaber without any formal training in the Jedi arts. There are those of you saying, "so what?" and "it shouldn't matter". It does matter. Luke was trained by Yoda and Obi Wan for 2 full years before he ran off to confront Darth Vader on Bespin. They both warned him to not go, that it was more important that he complete his training. Vader overpowered him on Bespin and he was lucky that all he lost was a hand.

 

We can go one step further with this if that's not convincing enough for you. Before the fall of the Order, the Jedi trained Padawan Learners to eventually become Jedi Knights, a process that typically took 15-20 years. There was training in the Jedi arts, history, etc., and that was all before they were apprenticed to a Master to complete their training and become Knights. If Rey, who was NEVER trained in either the Jedi arts or the Force, can pick up a lightsaber and defeat Kylo Ren, a trained Force sensitive who is strong enough in the Force to stop blaster bolts in mid-air, then it stands to reason that the Younglings and Padawans in the Jedi Temple would have been strong enough to defeat Darth Vader when he marched on it.

 

This is all established canon, yet The Force Awakens abandons the canon of both the Original Trilogy and the Prequels with this non-sensical duel. Why? There is no acceptable explanation for this.

And if Rey was going up against Vader, he would have defeated her an a hot minute - she wasn't, she was going up against an injured Kylo Ren.

 

EDIT: And how did you reach the conclusion that Luke was trained for two years before Bespin?

Edited December 28, 2015 by DarthDymond

[DarknessInLight]

And if Rey was going up against Vader, he would have defeated her an a hot minute - she wasn't, she was going up against an injured Kylo Ren.

 

Which should have made Kylo Ren even MORE dangerous. Remember that when Luke sliced into Lord Vader's shoulder, he screamed in pain and then when berserk, eventually cutting off Luke's hand. It still doesn't show an sound explanation for Rey being able to defeat Kylo Ren in saber combat, since it is clear he is trained(he built that weapon himself)

[Zharik]

Rey's powers= Rey opening herself up to the force and let the force flow and guide her, her abilities are not unbelievable. The Force is not magic. The Force is an entity and it awakened in Rey and it became her ally and guided her. "do or do not. there is no try" and rey did

 

This, so much this. Yoda would try and tell someone that they're too old to start the training, while this is obviously false, but I think it had a purpose: to agitate the potential student so he could gauge the reaction. If the student was calm and patient, then yay! great potential, but if they whine and get frustrated, then watch out! potential Vader-like failure again. Yoda almost actually gave up on Luke when he was getting frustrated and said, "I cannot teach him, he has no patience." Rey exhibited *immense* patience, did you see the scrawl marks denoting how long she had been a 'slave' there? When Obi Wan was training Luke, the point seemed to be to trust your instincts more an let the force guide your actions more (instead of fighting it and trying to control things with your eyes). When Luke listened, he was successful, but when he didn't listen, he failed. Rey is already calm, patient and willing to allow the force to guide her more fully, therefore she is simply more advanced (and *that* is what *makes* you more advanced, not practicing with a saber).

 

I hope I am remembering this correctly:

There was a moment in one of the EU books (I forget which one) when Ben Skywalker and Jacen Solo were dueling for practice. Ben had been practicing his saber technique a LOT lately and Jacen heed been neglecting it in favor of more meditation-like things. Both actually assumed that Ben would prevail, but they were wrong because Jacen's connection to the force was the deciding factor.

 

TL;DR: stop thinking like an Earthling with no actual knowledge/experience of what the force does to/for you.

[DarthDymond]

-deleted, post was completely redundant with this one- Edited December 28, 2015 by DarthDymond

[DarknessInLight]

And if Rey was going up against Vader, he would have defeated her an a hot minute - she wasn't, she was going up against an injured Kylo Ren.

 

EDIT: And how did you reach the conclusion that Luke was trained for two years before Bespin?

 

I was including the time that Luke and Obi Wan spent on the Falcon and the time intervening between A New Hope and Empire plus the time spent on Dagobah with Master Yoda. Speaking of which, given the speculated time that it took the Falcon to reach Bespin from Hoth at sublight speed, I would guess that Luke spent at least 6 months training with Yoda on Dagobah.

[Zharik]

Which should have made Kylo Ren even MORE dangerous. Remember that when Luke sliced into Lord Vader's shoulder, he screamed in pain and then when berserk, eventually cutting off Luke's hand. It still doesn't show an sound explanation for Rey being able to defeat Kylo Ren in saber combat, since it is clear he is trained(he built that weapon himself)

 

In your example, Vader went from toying with Luke to royally pissed after Luke got in a lucky shot. So he lost control (dark side, emotional) and taught the little upstart a lesson.

 

Now to why the Episode VII fight *works*:

A person who is trained in martial arts for a couple of year is better than an untrained (but high potential) fighter, yes... How about you shoot the trained fighter in the side with a shotgun and THEN tell me he should still win.

 

Take *all* the information about the fight as it was shown in the movie and tell me how "trained" he was. He kept succeeding against normals (no force power) like Poe Dameron and unarmed computer stations, but didn't know how to handle someone who could (even if only as an instinctive ability) defend themselves. He was too used to having an easy time by using the force against an easier opponent. Imagine playing football as a healthy adult male vs 6-10 year olds - no contest. (this is the advantage you gain with the force) Now line up against another adult male, even if that new player has never played football, they might be "athletic" by nature, and you lose! (now do it while severely wounded in your side!)

 

Don't try to over think the movie. While it had its flaws, the confrontations between Rey and Kylo Ren were done absolutely right.

[DarknessInLight]

 

Take *all* the information about the fight as it was shown in the movie and tell me how "trained" he was.

 

Well, we know that he was a student at Skywalker's first Jedi Academy. At some point, he fell and slaughtered everything in there. We don't know at what point in the intervening years Ben Solo's training took place, but he was trained by Skywalker in the Jedi arts. It stands to reason that he is(or at least was) somewhat skilled in saber combat. Lightsabers are supposed to be clumsy weapons in the hands of those untrained in their use, which would explain why Finn can use one. Apparently the First Order trains their troops in the proper use of them.

 

I know the EU isnt canon any longer, but Kyle Katarn received Lightsaber training while at the Imperial Academy. That is part of the reason he was able to defeat, Yun, Gorc, Pic, Sariss, Boc and Jerec in his quest to protect the Valley of the Jedi on Ruusan. He outdueled them.

 

Whoa. I just had another thought unrelated to our conversation.

Edited December 28, 2015 by DarknessInLight

[maxetius]

The Force wasn't with Kylo Ren.

 

/thread

[SirenSounds]

In your example, Vader went from toying with Luke to royally pissed after Luke got in a lucky shot. So he lost control (dark side, emotional) and taught the little upstart a lesson.

 

Now to why the Episode VII fight *works*:

A person who is trained in martial arts for a couple of year is better than an untrained (but high potential) fighter, yes... How about you shoot the trained fighter in the side with a shotgun and THEN tell me he should still win.

 

Take *all* the information about the fight as it was shown in the movie and tell me how "trained" he was. He kept succeeding against normals (no force power) like Poe Dameron and unarmed computer stations, but didn't know how to handle someone who could (even if only as an instinctive ability) defend themselves. He was too used to having an easy time by using the force against an easier opponent. Imagine playing football as a healthy adult male vs 6-10 year olds - no contest. (this is the advantage you gain with the force) Now line up against another adult male, even if that new player has never played football, they might be "athletic" by nature, and you lose! (now do it while severely wounded in your side!)

 

Don't try to over think the movie. While it had its flaws, the confrontations between Rey and Kylo Ren were done absolutely right.

 

 

To add to this line of thinking and some of what others are saying (as well as myself). What is shown several times is that those that are in the First Order are young. So they're not overly trained. Gleeson is a young commander, Ren, and some of the supporting cast (the officer leaving his post in the end) were all VERY young, in terms of age.

 

My guess is, that they'll go into this some in the following movies as the First Order are essentially a bunch of upstarts, and "First Order" is like a really dedicated frat house

 

Joking aside, that yeah, they're the next generation of young, dedicated, zealots. I dont recall which actor said it in an interview, Driver or Oscar, but the theory or the acting motivation behind the "villian" of the movie isnt so much pure act of evil, its the fanatical belief of his cause that is evil.

 

So I think that Kylo losing to Rey works. He's young. As is she. She's "playing' w/the starfighter helmet, daydreaming about life ahead of her. These are acts of a young person. Older people look at the helmet and daydream w/out putting it on, and dream of life gone past.

[Audoucet]

Ok, I've had some time to process the new movie, given I've seen it twice in the last 2 days. I wanted to discuss Rey's Force abilities, starting with what I believe is her main one: Battle meditation. When Kylo was blade locked with her, and mentioned his offer to train in the Force, Rey realized she could call on the Force more directly, and she seemed to go into a meditative calm, which in turn, all of a sudden gave her a boost in combat and literally turned the tide of the fight. That to me seems like a manifestation of battle meditation. It seems as if right now her skill is limited to her personal engagements, but once she trains further will she be able to control battles on a larger scale like Bastila? Also, another fun similarity to Bastila and Satele both...given her affinity to staff based melee fighting, I truly believe once we see Rey complete her training by making her own lightsaber, she'll be the first Force user on the big screen in a while to use a double bladed lightsaber.

 

Back on topic though: are there any other Force abilities outside of the normal Jedi powers such as push, mind trick, etc. that anyone believes Rey will have? Or is it just mainly battle meditation? Discuss away

 

I think it wasn't BM, she was just calming herself, which is the way of the Light side. She was just getting rid of her emotions, to have perfect Force clarity.

[magnashear]

Episode 3 there was like an 8 year swinging a light Saber around like a pro. Took out 3 or 4 storm troopers then it took another 5 or so to bring him down. So not 15-20 years

[magnashear]

Actually he killed Jango fett clone troopers which I think are superior to storm troopers

[Audoucet]

The EU is not canon. Not anymore.

 

However, the interesting part for this was that Rey is able to pick up a lightsaber without any formal training in the Jedi arts. There are those of you saying, "so what?" and "it shouldn't matter". It does matter. Luke was trained by Yoda and Obi Wan for 2 full years before he ran off to confront Darth Vader on Bespin. They both warned him to not go, that it was more important that he complete his training. Vader overpowered him on Bespin and he was lucky that all he lost was a hand.

 

We can go one step further with this if that's not convincing enough for you. Before the fall of the Order, the Jedi trained Padawan Learners to eventually become Jedi Knights, a process that typically took 15-20 years. There was training in the Jedi arts, history, etc., and that was all before they were apprenticed to a Master to complete their training and become Knights. If Rey, who was NEVER trained in either the Jedi arts or the Force, can pick up a lightsaber and defeat Kylo Ren, a trained Force sensitive who is strong enough in the Force to stop blaster bolts in mid-air, then it stands to reason that the Younglings and Padawans in the Jedi Temple would have been strong enough to defeat Darth Vader when he marched on it.

 

This is all established canon, yet The Force Awakens abandons the canon of both the Original Trilogy and the Prequels with this non-sensical duel. Why? There is no acceptable explanation for this.

 

Just one thing : Rey had experience with melee weapons. She is clearly skilled with what looks like a vibro-staff.

[maxetius]

However, the interesting part for this was that Rey is able to pick up a lightsaber without any formal training in the Jedi arts. There are those of you saying, "so what?" and "it shouldn't matter". It does matter. Luke was trained by Yoda and Obi Wan for 2 full years before he ran off to confront Darth Vader on Bespin. They both warned him to not go, that it was more important that he complete his training. Vader overpowered him on Bespin and he was lucky that all he lost was a hand.

 

Seriously where did you get 2 full years from? I saw he trained with Obi-Wan for a few hours and Obi-Wan never once pulled out his lightsaber and showed him how to duel. and then Obi-Wan got killed. Then much, much later, he hung out with Yoda for a couple days not using his lightsaber at all and had a duel with Vader where he held himself well despite no one teaching him how to fight lightsaber vs lightsaber combat.

 

This better not be something covered in a novelization because it would invalidate your entire post. TFA has a novelization too that also explains stuff not seen in the film.

Edited December 28, 2015 by maxetius

[Miffins]

I'm just going to go out on a limb here and say that I agree that Rey's parentage is heavily hinted toward Luke being her father. But honestly I could see them doing another borrow move from the EU and making her related to the Shan family. I keep going over in my head that in the movie that line in the trailer that Luke was saying about how the force is strong in his family could've been said to Ben Solo when they were beginning their training. I'm not buying into the idea that they need a family connection to sense each other's memories, or share visions together. If Rey is as powerful within the Force then no matter what those visions would've happened to her with the lightsaber because of the strong emotional users who wielded the saber before. The living force could've surrounded itself around that object .

 

I know it's heavily implied but people really are grasping at straws at the Han/Leia theory. Lets not forget that we have other Jedi and force sensitive people in the Star Wars universe at this time. Kanan and Ezra could easily be one of her fathers. Not to mention they could just borrow another idea from EU, rename it a bit, and boom now we have a whole new plot. Ben Solo, and Moraband are literally from the EU and they just changed the names a bit. Also I'm not going to be happy if we find out she's a Solo. Just seems too convenient. So I'm going to stick with that she's a Shan that was discovered by the Rebel's crew and after Luke's disappearance they left her on Jakku to protect her from Ren/Snoke/Dark Side force users.

 

I don't buy the idea that Ren wanted to train her because he knows they're family. I think he wants to train her so together they can overthrow Snoke. Just like every Sith does some day. They go out, find a powerful apprentice, train them and attempt to overthrow any Dark Side user ahead of the former apprentice. Not saying that Snoke/Ren are Sith but I mean I'd bet Snoke is an old school Sith who was trained on Moraband.

[Zharik]

Just one thing : Rey had experience with melee weapons. She is clearly skilled with what looks like a vibro-staff.

 

What's a vibro-staff? I've heard of a vibro sword, and an electro staff, but not a vibro staff. Also it didn't do anything other than, well not break when smashed into flesh, which more likely than not makes it a... staff.

 

(were you trying to sound Star Warsy?)

[Cbaoth]

Well, that is the reason the narrative of the movie gave. It if doesn't work for you, then it doesn't work for you.

 

Some people don't buy the idea that a bunch of teddybears could wipe out an army of trained soldiers; some people don't buy that a nine-year-old kid could blow up a battlecruiser; some people don't buy that having the high ground would mean squat in a Jedi duel. Others are fine with all those things.

 

Suspension of disbelief breaks for different people at different points - even in Star Wars.

 

Ok. I can go with this, since it seems that this is indeed the reason the movie gives. And that just makes it even worse! They had plenty of time to come up with a good idea, and this is what they came up with??

 

That is just lazy!!

[Audoucet]

What's a vibro-staff? I've heard of a vibro sword, and an electro staff, but not a vibro staff. Also it didn't do anything other than, well not break when smashed into flesh, which more likely than not makes it a... staff.

 

(were you trying to sound Star Warsy?)

 

http://www.swtor-spy.com/item-single/Vectors_Killik_Vibrostaff/50361/

[Isnogut]

Ok, I've had some time to process the new movie, given I've seen it twice in the last 2 days. I wanted to discuss Rey's Force abilities, starting with what I believe is her main one: Battle meditation. When Kylo was blade locked with her, and mentioned his offer to train in the Force, Rey realized she could call on the Force more directly, and she seemed to go into a meditative calm, which in turn, all of a sudden gave her a boost in combat and literally turned the tide of the fight. That to me seems like a manifestation of battle meditation. It seems as if right now her skill is limited to her personal engagements, but once she trains further will she be able to control battles on a larger scale like Bastila? Also, another fun similarity to Bastila and Satele both...given her affinity to staff based melee fighting, I truly believe once we see Rey complete her training by making her own lightsaber, she'll be the first Force user on the big screen in a while to use a double bladed lightsaber.

 

Back on topic though: are there any other Force abilities outside of the normal Jedi powers such as push, mind trick, etc. that anyone believes Rey will have? Or is it just mainly battle meditation? Discuss away

I think she is mainly at same level apt as Obiwan. He was a total package, skilled in mind boostig, controlling and body boosting also levitating things. He also had visons. All of his shown force abilities we see in a raw form expresed by Ray. I truly do not belive she has abilities like Star Wars Legends Jedi/Sith. Neither in the movies, nor in the Canon Books and Comics and also not in the cartoons there was battle meditation at a greater scale, but only on bolstering the very own senses and reflexes. We see this on QuiGon while fighting Darth Maul, Yoda vs. Tyrannus, etc. This kind of force ability she used during the duel.

 

But are we going to see diferent exressions of the Force? I hope so. The coolest force experssions were by Kylo Ren holding up blasterfires, blocking peoples movement, probing or disabeling minds. Those are only expressions of the force. So, how far can a foceuser go? Yoda and Palpatine already gave the answer to that. The Force is mainfold. And by that, everything that a forceuser want to express with the force could be possible. ...Or in other words the Force can do what the author or the director want and can be deivered by the CGI.