[SPOILER]This is Star Wars Force Awakens Spoiler Alert Warning do not read this post

[Ghost_Spectre]

....there is NOTHING in the film that leads on to believe she is open to the force....rather the opposite...she runs away from it and denies it.

 

I guess you missed where Luke's lightsaber reached out to her. And you missed where she had the force visions of the past and future...yeah you must have gone for some snacks...

 

She has no epiphany moment ,,,,,

 

Yeah, you missed the scene where she at the edge of the crevasse with Kylo he says, "You need a teacher, let me teach you the force." And she says, "The force..." And she does what that alien woman told her to do and became a totally different person prior to that moment. That's the definition of an epiphany moment... Clearly, you were out of the theater when that happened.

 

but there is absolutely NOTHING that would lead me to the conclusion she uses the force....

 

Did you actually watch the movie or walked out after the opening moments? Because 2 times she clearly used the force whether she realized she did so or not. That's what happens to a person who the force awakens itself in said individual. Hence, the title of the movie.

 

1.) Force persuaded the stormtrooper when she was strapped in the interrogation chair after she calmed herself.

 

2.) Force pulled the lightsaber to her after Finn was hurt while Kylo tried to take it himself using the force and failed.

 

That wasn't magic. That wasn't caused by an explosion or hallucinogenic drugs either. It. Was. Her. Using. The. Force.

 

I get it you didn't like the movie and want to put it down. But to make statements that are patently false to support your denigration of the movie...is typical of someone who truly hated something. If this is not the case for you; I do apologize. However, reading your blanket statements of 'facts' concerning what happened...leads me to that conclusion.

[Garravesh]

An aspect of the force. The dark aspect of it. I think you're also missing the clone wars where they introduce three force entities. The father, son, and daughter. Physical manfiestations of three aspects of the force. The father being balance, the son being darkness, and the daughter being light. We've also had plenty of supplemental material that speaks and gives us a lot of information about the force. You're misunderstanding what aspect is. You act like aspect is some abstract thought but just because it's an "Aspect" of the force doesn't mean it doesn't exist. On the contrary.

 

Have you paid attention to George Lucas views on the force? He spoke on the nature of the light and dark side. He's given his opinion and insight. There is a light and dark side of the force (again, as shown in clone wars.) and it isn't psychological. The force wasn't meant to be psychological. It's spiritual. You also can't on one hand deny there being an actual dark side when there's places and planets "Steeped in the dark side." when there's manifestations of the dark side and even entities created entirely of the dark side. We also know the Sith species are naturally in tune with the dark side down to a biological level.

 

 

I have read all you have and more possibly. I have seen the former owner of the Star Wars and his opinions/commentary on his creations...I probably have several copies lying in my audio library somewhere.

 

I am also awares of Mortis and all that jazz......again personifications of human or human like psychology.

 

Someone who uses the force for evil will take on specific traits and personalities as does one who uses it for good,.

 

Darth Plagueis said it best IMO "A Jedi sufficiently strong in the Force can be trained to produce a facsimile, but not true Sith lightning, which, unabated, has the power not only to incapacitate or kill, but to physically transform the victim. Force lightning requires strength of a sort only a Sith can command because we accept consequence and reject compassion. To do so requires a thirst for power that is not easily satisfied. The Force tries to resist the callings of ravenous spirits; therefore it must be broken and made a beast of burden. It must be made to answer one's will. But the Force cannot be treated deferentially. In order to summon and use lightning properly, you will someday have to be on the receiving end of its power, as a means of taking the energy inside yourself."

 

It sounds to me like the force is one beast to me in that instance,

[Rhyltran]

I have read all you have and more possibly. I have seen the former owner of the Star Wars and his opinions/commentary on his creations...I probably have several copies lying in my audio library somewhere.

 

I am also awares of Mortis and all that jazz......again personifications of human or human like psychology.

 

Someone who uses the force for evil will take on specific traits and personalities as does one who uses it for good,.

 

Darth Plagueis said it best IMO "A Jedi sufficiently strong in the Force can be trained to produce a facsimile, but not true Sith lightning, which, unabated, has the power not only to incapacitate or kill, but to physically transform the victim. Force lightning requires strength of a sort only a Sith can command because we accept consequence and reject compassion. To do so requires a thirst for power that is not easily satisfied. The Force tries to resist the callings of ravenous spirits; therefore it must be broken and made a beast of burden. It must be made to answer one's will. But the Force cannot be treated deferentially. In order to summon and use lightning properly, you will someday have to be on the receiving end of its power, as a means of taking the energy inside yourself."

 

It sounds to me like the force is one beast to me in that instance,

 

You're going to use the Sith's view of the force as the correct one when it's obvious that the Jedi's view is correct? That's the whole point in star wars. The Sith believed in using the force as a tool, bending it to their will, breaking it, and making it their own. Rather than work towards balance, harmony, and working along side the force they believed in using it for their own purposes to get the things they want. We know this is wrong. How? Plagueis admitted he felt the force fight back and it did. By creating Anakin to get rid of the Sith for trying to upset the balance. We also do know there's a dark side of the force because we're told as much. As for Mortis? It's not psychological. I had this argument with another user and defeated them in it as well. I can provide quotes that contradict you and very much claim that the Father, Son, and Daughter were very much real and really did stand for the different aspects of the force.

 

Plagueis had a very psychologist and scientific interpretation of the force. Plagueis was wrong.

Edited December 19, 2015 by Rhyltran

[Ghost_Spectre]

I have read all you have and more possibly. I have seen the former owner of the Star Wars and his opinions/commentary on his creations...I probably have several copies lying in my audio library somewhere.

 

I am also awares of Mortis and all that jazz......again personifications of human or human like psychology.

 

Someone who uses the force for evil will take on specific traits and personalities as does one who uses it for good,.

 

Darth Plagueis said it best IMO "A Jedi sufficiently strong in the Force can be trained to produce a facsimile, but not true Sith lightning, which, unabated, has the power not only to incapacitate or kill, but to physically transform the victim. Force lightning requires strength of a sort only a Sith can command because we accept consequence and reject compassion. To do so requires a thirst for power that is not easily satisfied. The Force tries to resist the callings of ravenous spirits; therefore it must be broken and made a beast of burden. It must be made to answer one's will. But the Force cannot be treated deferentially. In order to summon and use lightning properly, you will someday have to be on the receiving end of its power, as a means of taking the energy inside yourself."

 

It sounds to me like the force is one beast to me in that instance,

 

Here, I'll put an end to this argument. Lucas stated from the beginning that the Light side = good while the Dark side = evil. He designed and created the Star Wars Universe. He is the ultimate authority on it. These writers that try to expand on HIS universe do so with a 'literary license.' Why do you think most of those novels prior to the date given by TPTB on what is continuity or not, made those novels non-influencing canon? If you have an issue with what either side of the force is, take it up with Lucas and see what he says about it.

Edited December 19, 2015 by Ghost_Spectre

[SithKoriandr]

Here, I'll put an end to this argument. Lucas stated from the beginning that the Light side = good while the Dark side = evil. He designed and created the Star Wars Universe. He is the ultimate authority on it. These writers that try to expand on HIS universe do so with a 'literary license.' Why do you think most of those novels prior to the date given by TPTB on what is continuity or not, made those novels non-influencing canon? If you have an issue with what either side of the force is, take it up with Lucas and see what he says about it.

 

Always surprising to see people try to say the one who created the universe is wrong on the force It has a good and dark side!

[Garravesh]

Here, I'll put an end to this argument. Lucas stated from the beginning that the Light side = good while the Dark side = evil. He designed and created the Star Wars Universe. He is the ultimate authority on it. These writers that try to expand on HIS universe do so with a 'literary license.' Why do you think most of those novels prior to the date given by TPTB on what is continuity or not, made those novels non-influencing canon? If you have an issue with what either side of the force is, take it up with Lucas and see what he says about it.

 

thanks for proving my point......

 

 

Light SIDE is good and Dark SIDE is bad........one side of the force is bad one side is good both an aspect of the force or SIDES of the Force...huzzah

[GrandLordMenace]

They understand. The movie wasn't perfect, it's not good in many respects of setting up the world and the lore, BUT

 

NEITHER WAS THE ORIGINAL STAR WARS.

 

The Prequels had the problem of being bogged down in the world building and creation, film is about escape, not just getting bogged down in history. History should be shown, not told. The movie should not live in the past, but embrace the future, and the story it tells should be told in the film, not the story of the past.

 

In Star Wars, Ben tells Luke about the Clone War, but we know nothing about it. This movie is about the mystery, of the NEW canon, it's not supposed to explain everything. The problem with the prequels is Lucas was set on EXPLAINING, EXPLAINING, EXPLAINING. This movie did what a good film does, it affects you, it makes you excited for what's to come, and it makes you fall in love with new characters. This movie did the job. They understand Star Wars.

 

Remember that Star Wars is not original, it's a classic mythology, the hero's journey. The Prequels exchanged plot for world building, and while we ARE better for it, they made for **** films. This movie is literally the best Star Wars film since Empire, and sets up a new Hero's Journey. I for one can't wait for episode 8.

[PSVEindhoven]

I fully agree...

 

because of her vision of the past and future she experienced when she grabbed Luke's lightsabre. And the fact that it called for her specifically much like Baras lightsabre called for him during the SW story-line on Hoth. And the look on Luke's face when he looked at her and realized who she was, I'm sure he felt her connection to the force, but it was the look that really cemented the deal for me. He looked at her like, "My daughter...she's found me!

 

And I really hope it because then I´ll like Rey even more

[ZanyaCross]

Always surprising to see people try to say the one who created the universe is wrong on the force It has a good and dark side!

 

Actually most of what we know about the force in-canon comes from people who aren't Lucas.

 

“You will know (the good from the bad) when you are calm, at peace. Passive. A Jedi uses the Force for knowledge and defense, never for attack.”

 

“Size matters not. Look at me. Judge me by my size, do you? Hmm? Hmm. And well you should not. For my ally is the Force, and a powerful ally it is. Life creates it, makes it grow. Its energy surrounds us and binds us. Luminous beings are we, not this crude matter. You must feel the Force around you; here, between you, me, the tree, the rock, everywhere, yes. Even between the land and the ship.”

 

“Your weapons, you will not need them.”

 

All of those lines were by writers who weren't Lucas. Lucas gave us stuff like midichlorians and Obi-Wan saying "This weapon is your life!" Boiling the force down to goodies and baddies shows how poor a student of Campbell he really was. He mimicked the hero's journey, but doesn't seem to really grasp the "why" of myth and legend.

 

People who kiss Lucas's a** as the one and only arbiter of what is and isn't canon are just showing how little they actually know about Star Wars, erasing the contributions of those who helped him build this universe. Lucas had his chance to show everyone his pure, untainted vision and it's still being laughed at like someone who decided to "perfect" whiskey by removing all the base alcohol.

Edited December 19, 2015 by ZanyaCross

[cs_zoltan]

Remember that Star Wars is not original, it's a classic mythology, the hero's journey. The Prequels exchanged plot for world building, and while we ARE better for it, they made for **** films. This movie is literally the best Star Wars film since Empire, and sets up a new Hero's Journey. I for one can't wait for episode 8.

While SW is not original the previous movies at least had their own plots. TFA is closer to an ANH reboot than being the new Star Wars.

JJ wanted to be so faithfull to the original trilogy that he actually remade it.

[SithKoriandr]

Actually most of what we know about the force in-canon comes from people who aren't Lucas.

 

“You will know (the good from the bad) when you are calm, at peace. Passive. A Jedi uses the Force for knowledge and defense, never for attack.”

 

“Size matters not. Look at me. Judge me by my size, do you? Hmm? Hmm. And well you should not. For my ally is the Force, and a powerful ally it is. Life creates it, makes it grow. Its energy surrounds us and binds us. Luminous beings are we, not this crude matter. You must feel the Force around you; here, between you, me, the tree, the rock, everywhere, yes. Even between the land and the ship.”

 

“Your weapons, you will not need them.”

 

All of those lines were by writers who weren't Lucas. Lucas gave us stuff like midichlorians and Obi-Wan saying "This weapon is your life!" Boiling the force down to goodies and baddies shows how poor a student of Campbell he really was. He mimicked the hero's journey, but doesn't seem to really grasp the "why" of myth and legend.

 

People who kiss Lucas's a** as the one and only arbiter of what is and isn't canon are just showing how little they actually know about Star Wars, erasing the contributions of those who helped him build this universe. Lucas had his chance to show everyone his pure, untainted vision and it's still being laughed at like someone who decided to "perfect" whiskey by removing all the base alcohol.

 

Yes, he had help, but those who helped build lore of Star Wars, until recently, had to turn to George for the okay. He may not have been a great director, but he did have an idea many love.

 

As for the hate on the movie, reading some of the posts, I can't help but think some are trolling and others would have hated it, even if it was the best movie ever seen.

[DarthDymond]

Actually most of what we know about the force in-canon comes from people who aren't Lucas.

[...]

All of those lines were by writers who weren't Lucas. Lucas gave us stuff like midichlorians and Obi-Wan saying "This weapon is your life!" Boiling the force down to goodies and baddies shows how poor a student of Campbell he really was. He mimicked the hero's journey, but doesn't seem to really grasp the "why" of myth and legend.

 

People who kiss Lucas's a** as the one and only arbiter of what is and isn't canon are just showing how little they actually know about Star Wars, erasing the contributions of those who helped him build this universe. Lucas had his chance to show everyone his pure, untainted vision and it's still being laughed at like someone who decided to "perfect" whiskey by removing all the base alcohol.

Pretty much this.

 

Lucas was responsible for the creation of an amazing fictional universe, but in many ways he wasn't the actual architect of it. And he was certainly no Tolkien or George R.R. Martin - world-building was not Lucas's focus or his strong suit. I don't say this to jump on the en vogue "Lucas bashing" bandwagon, but because it's clear that he has a different approach to his fiction.

 

Whereas Tolkien and Martin each built a fleshed out universe and then told a story in it, Lucas started from the point of telling a fun Flash Gordon / Buck Rogers style adventure romp, and then sprinkled in lines about the surrounding universe as window-dressing (I'm not saying either authorial approach is better, but they do have different implications for the fictional setting created).

 

The lines about "You served my father in the Clone Wars" or making "the Kessel Run" weren't added because they were part of some grand universe Lucas had in mind - they were there because he needed something 'space-y sounding' for the dialogue in that scene. They had no more real substance than "Grabthar's Hammer" or "Doctor Chaotica's Lightning Shield". He or other authors went back and retroactively made up stories for them once there was a clamoring demand to know what they were about.

 

The concept of the Force is the same, Lucas needed 'space magic' for the 'space wizards' he wanted in his story, and he put a gloss of Eastern-sounding philosophy over it to make it seem unique and more interesting. It was never a fully-developed philosophy or cosmology going in, and so it is not something that's been treated all that consistently in the fictional universe. Lucas has said that the Light Side is the same as the Force being in Balance and the Dark Side is when the Force is out of Balance, but he's also responsible for the Mortis trilogy where having the Force in Balance seemed to be all about a Yin-Yang balance between the Light and the Dark.

[t-darko]

Pretty much this.

 

Lucas was responsible for the creation of an amazing fictional universe, but in many ways he wasn't the actual architect of it. And he was certainly no Tolkien or George R.R. Martin - world-building was not Lucas's focus or his strong suit. I don't say this to jump on the en vogue "Lucas bashing" bandwagon, but because it's clear that he has a different approach to his fiction.

 

Whereas Tolkien and Martin each built a fleshed out universe and then told a story in it, Lucas started from the point of telling a fun Flash Gordon / Buck Rogers style adventure romp, and then sprinkled in lines about the surrounding universe as window-dressing (I'm not saying either authorial approach is better, but they do have different implications for the fictional setting created).

 

The lines about "You served my father in the Clone Wars" or making "the Kessel Run" weren't added because they were part of some grand universe Lucas had in mind - they were there because he needed something 'space-y sounding' for the dialogue in that scene. They had no more real substance than "Grabthar's Hammer" or "Doctor Chaotica's Lightning Shield". He or other authors went back and retroactively made up stories for them once there was a clamoring demand to know what they were about.

 

The concept of the Force is the same, Lucas needed 'space magic' for the 'space wizards' he wanted in his story, and he put a gloss of Eastern-sounding philosophy over it to make it seem unique and more interesting. It was never a fully-developed philosophy or cosmology going in, and so it is not something that's been treated all that consistently in the fictional universe. Lucas has said that the Light Side is the same as the Force being in Balance and the Dark Side is when the Force is out of Balance, but he's also responsible for the Mortis trilogy where having the Force in Balance seemed to be all about a Yin-Yang balance between the Light and the Dark.

 

couldn't agree more!!

 

Hence the Lucas Story Group . . .

[Ghost_Spectre]

Actually most of what we know about the force in-canon comes from people who aren't Lucas.

 

Yes, you are quite right. However, you can bet these writer's had strict guidelines to go by to write and create in Lucas' universe. Micheal Stackpole wrote 'I, Jedi.' I know Mr. Stackpole. I worked with him and a number of other known writers in another game universe. They have guidelines that must be meet and adhered to. If any thing is going to be alter that has any deviation from the current meta it has to be approved and is not something that is done lightly.

 

These 'people' who wrote, developed, and created in Lucas' universe did so under his vision and guidelines that fit his vision for the universe. How broad these guidelines are, I cannot answer. But you can bet that if some writer was wanting to introduce some new race 'like alien bird-like creatures*' a stranded group of warriors in certain type of bipedal fighting vehicles as in one universe, will find them not so well received and probably should never be or been written about. To that end, whatever was created and introduced into the SW universe, you can bet Lucas had the final say in it.

 

*1000 points to the person who can name that novel and the universe it is in. (I suspect Brian Davion will know! )

Edited December 19, 2015 by Ghost_Spectre

[DarthDymond]

*1000 points to the person who can name that novel and the universe it is in. (I suspect Brian Davion will know! )

Universe is Battletech (Lethal Heritage was how I became a Stackpole fan, heck, my Trooper is named Phelan). The novel was like "Far Country" or something like that? Never read it because I saw those bird-people and my immediate reaction was: "Nope!"

 

(Fun fact - Battletech was originally some variation of "Battle Droids", but Lucas slapped a copyright (or maybe trademark) claim on the term "Droid" so they had to change it )

Edited December 19, 2015 by DarthDymond

[Kaedusz]

Actually most of what we know about the force in-canon comes from people who aren't Lucas.

 

“You will know (the good from the bad) when you are calm, at peace. Passive. A Jedi uses the Force for knowledge and defense, never for attack.”

 

“Size matters not. Look at me. Judge me by my size, do you? Hmm? Hmm. And well you should not. For my ally is the Force, and a powerful ally it is. Life creates it, makes it grow. Its energy surrounds us and binds us. Luminous beings are we, not this crude matter. You must feel the Force around you; here, between you, me, the tree, the rock, everywhere, yes. Even between the land and the ship.”

 

“Your weapons, you will not need them.”

 

All of those lines were by writers who weren't Lucas. Lucas gave us stuff like midichlorians and Obi-Wan saying "This weapon is your life!" Boiling the force down to goodies and baddies shows how poor a student of Campbell he really was. He mimicked the hero's journey, but doesn't seem to really grasp the "why" of myth and legend.

 

People who kiss Lucas's a** as the one and only arbiter of what is and isn't canon are just showing how little they actually know about Star Wars, erasing the contributions of those who helped him build this universe. Lucas had his chance to show everyone his pure, untainted vision and it's still being laughed at like someone who decided to "perfect" whiskey by removing all the base alcohol.

 

take a look at this

 

''During the writing of "Ghosts of Mortis," the seventeenth episode in the third season of the television series Star Wars: The Clone Wars, Lucas wanted to include two ancient Sith Lords who could serve as an "uber evil influence guiding the Son," the villain of the episode. It was decided that Darth Revan, the main character of the now-Legends video game Star Wars: Knights of the Old Republic, and Bane would be the two Sith Lords. The two characters were styled and modeled for "Ghosts of Mortis" based on their appearances in the Expanded Universe, but the scene, despite being laid out, was never animated. Dave Filoni, the show's supervising director, was apprehensive of the idea that Sith Lords could return as spirits, believing that Bane and Revan's appearance would have greater implications than the episode was exploring. Lucas thought about it as well and eventually agreed that the scene should be removed from the episode due to those implications on his ideas about the Force.''

 

This Filoni guy is a complete imbecile. After this Disney Canon is pretty much a joke.

Edited December 19, 2015 by Kaedusz

[DarthDymond]

take a look at this

 

''During the writing of "Ghosts of Mortis," the seventeenth episode in the third season of the television series Star Wars: The Clone Wars, Lucas wanted to include two ancient Sith Lords who could serve as an "uber evil influence guiding the Son," the villain of the episode. It was decided that Darth Revan, the main character of the now-Legends video game Star Wars: Knights of the Old Republic, and Bane would be the two Sith Lords. The two characters were styled and modeled for "Ghosts of Mortis" based on their appearances in the Expanded Universe, but the scene, despite being laid out, was never animated. Dave Filoni, the show's supervising director, was apprehensive of the idea that Sith Lords could return as spirits, believing that Bane and Revan's appearance would have greater implications than the episode was exploring. Lucas thought about it as well and eventually agreed that the scene should be removed from the episode due to those implications on his ideas about the Force.''

 

This Filoni guy is a complete imbecile. After this Disney Canon is pretty much a joke.

Eh, as cool as it would have been to have Revan on-screen and given a role in the new canon, boiling him down to being one of the two "Sithiest Siths who ever Sithed" by having his Force Spirit be Darth Revan and corrupting a Force God, seems like it would have been a disservice to the character. What I liked about Revan was how he was pulled between the Dark and the Light, this would have made the final word on the character boil down to: Sith.

 

And since the Mortis Arc is part of the Legends continuity too, that would have been his ultimate fate in SWTOR's universe as well as the Disney canon.

[Kaedusz]

Eh, as cool as it would have been to have Revan on-screen and given a role in the new canon, boiling him down to being one of the two "Sithiest Siths who ever Sithed" by having his Force Spirit be Darth Revan and corrupting a Force God, seems like it would have been a disservice to the character. What I liked about Revan was how he was pulled between the Dark and the Light, this would have made the final word on the character boil down to: Sith.

 

And since the Mortis Arc is part of the Legends continuity too, that would have been his ultimate fate in SWTOR's universe as well as the Disney canon.

 

Forget Revan or Bane or the Son. I too don't want Revan showed in the Clone Wars series. This is not what this is about.

 

I am looking at the underlined in particular and what it means.

Edited December 19, 2015 by Kaedusz

[Rhyltran]

Forget Revan or Bane or the Son. I am looking at the underlined in particular and what it means.

 

I actually agree with Kae here (doesn't happen often but it does) I brought it to the attention before in a debate. I really dislike the idea that there are no "Sith Spirits" in Disney Canon. it was a huge part of the EU and it alone can bring many different stories and aspects to life. Removing them I think is a great disservice to star wars. I get that they want to remove the old EU. I understand that but Sith Spirits have been a thing for many many years and even casual fans see it as being part of star wars.

[DarthDymond]

Forget Revan or Bane or the Son. I too don't want Revan showed in the Clone Wars series. This is not what this is about.

 

I am looking at the underlined in particular and what it means.

Ah, my bad, I misunderstood. Yeah, I definitely prefer the Legends universe's take on Sith Ghosts - that they can exist but are usually in some form of torment.

[DarthDymond]

Yes, you are quite right. However, you can bet these writer's had strict guidelines to go by to write and create in Lucas' universe. Micheal Stackpole wrote 'I, Jedi.' I know Mr. Stackpole. I worked with him and a number of other known writers in another game universe. They have guidelines that must be meet and adhered to. If any thing is going to be alter that has any deviation from the current meta it has to be approved and is not something that is done lightly.

 

These 'people' who wrote, developed, and created in Lucas' universe did so under his vision and guidelines that fit his vision for the universe. How broad these guidelines are, I cannot answer. But you can bet that if some writer was wanting to introduce some new race 'like alien bird-like creatures*' a stranded group of warriors in certain type of bipedal fighting vehicles as in one universe, will find them not so well received and probably should never be or been written about. To that end, whatever was created and introduced into the SW universe, you can bet Lucas had the final say in it.

There were certainly guidelines, but when it comes to world-building I think they were more open to different interpretations of the Force than you might suspect (and I believe it's been well-established by insiders that it was rarely something Lucas himself was involved in directly). I'm sure they had some mandates about "the Jedi have to always be the good guys - you can't make it so that the Dark Side is 'right'", but beyond that...

 

I mean, just look at the New Jedi Order series and Vergere - there was a whole plot line in there where she 'revealed' that looking at the Force as Light and Dark was wrong, and that it was the Force-User's intent that mattered. At the time, that was clearly meant to be treated as correct - it was only after the fact, when LucasArts gave it some further consideration, that her more relativistic approach was deemed to be inconsistent with the Star Wars themes, and she was retconned into being a Sith all along.

 

So the interpretation of the Force is clearly an area where even the reins-holders have gone back-and-forth over time.

Edited December 19, 2015 by DarthDymond

[Cuiwe]

I was extremely disappointed with TFA.

 

Story was bad. Jedi Knight's story arc in SWTOR is dozen times better not to mention KotOR 2.

 

Unappealing (in all ways) lead hero.

 

Ridiculously stupid climax, even for Star Wars (sci-fi / fantasy) story. Rey would beat Galen Marek's butt without Jedi training. Top kek.

 

John Williams performed rather poorly. Every Star Wars movie had an amazing soundtrack with memorable tracks. Not a single thing remained in my head after TFA. There are no memorable motifs / themes like Across the Stars, Imperial March or Battle of the Heroes.

 

Film is oozing with political agenda and doesn't even try to hide it.

 

I agree. But I find Consular MUCH more better than TFA. Consular story is so warm and so Jedi...my favourite <3 !

[Ghost_Spectre]

There were certainly guidelines, but when it comes to world-building I think they were more open to different interpretations of the Force than you might suspect (and I believe it's been well-established by insiders that it was rarely something Lucas himself was involved in directly). I'm sure they had some mandates about "the Jedi have to always be the good guys - you can't make it so that the Dark Side is 'right'", but beyond that...

 

I mean, just look at the New Jedi Order series and Vergere - there was a whole plot line in there where she 'revealed' that looking at the Force as Light and Dark was wrong, and that it was the Force-User's intent that mattered. At the time, that was clearly meant to be treated as correct - it was only after the fact, when LucasArts gave it some further consideration, that her more relativistic approach was deemed to be inconsistent with the Star Wars themes, and she was retconned into being a Sith all along.

 

So the interpretation of the Force is clearly an area where even the reins-holders have gone back-and-forth over time.

 

My point is a writer/developer cannot just make changes to the existing meta by adding, interpreting, or morphing something without approval from those in-charge of continuity compliance. Some writer attempting to change something without approval will find themselves less likely to be invited back to participate in any future project.

 

Someone trying to change the basic tenants of what the Light/Dark Force is as laid down by the originator because they want to make it seem, appear, or is something other than what it was original detailed as will require the ultimate approval of someone like Lucas or their direct representative with his input.

 

Do you think someone like Stackpole could write in David Webber's Honorverse and make a major change to make the Manicorians look like pirates and rampaging murders on his own without Webber saying it's fine with him? No, he cannot. Any writer in the SW universe must seek prior approval for making such changes that can radically alter the meta of said universe that may or may not directly clash with continuity.

 

What I'm seeing from many (my opinion from observation) people trying to make the Force as a whole as neutral and it is humans that make it evil...I call it the grey scale syndrome. In every movie, which are the absolute authority for canon, the force is represented by two distinct sides, Light & Dark. Ying and Yang. The Jedi use the force (light side) for good and as an aid to do what is necessary to help others. The Sith use the dark side for whatever their heart's desire (evil). The dark side is alluring, it seduces a person to itself, the light side does not. Trying to say that the force is 'neutral' goes against against what Lucas said the force is and how he represents it in his movies.

[Ghost_Spectre]

Universe is Battletech (Lethal Heritage was how I became a Stackpole fan, heck, my Trooper is named Phelan). The novel was like "Far Country" or something like that? Never read it because I saw those bird-people and my immediate reaction was: "Nope!"

 

(Fun fact - Battletech was originally some variation of "Battle Droids", but Lucas slapped a copyright (or maybe trademark) claim on the term "Droid" so they had to change it )

 

Ding Ding Ding! 1000 points awarded! Far Country is the book. Yes I read it, albeit I didn't like the 'bird-like aliens, but the story was good. However, those 'birds' while accepted by FASA turned out to be one of the worst books in all the series because the fans did not want aliens introduced into the universe whatsoever.

 

They're okay with humanoid-cyber warriors (Manei Domini), but intelligent bird-like aliens that worshiped Raven and Marauder 'Mechs? No thank you! Your reaction is how a vast majority of the fan base reacted and sales for that book flopped and never reprinted after its first and final run.

 

The BT Universe is one of the longest running game universes next to the likes of Dungeon & Dragons and Traveller. There's a reason for that. Writers and developers are smart enough to listen too the fan base in regards of making changes. Sometimes it can cause problems (introduction of the Clans (ala 3025 purists)), other times it is a huge hit (The Blakist Jihad). Unlike here, $$ takes precedence over the wants, desires, and needs of the fan base. When balance between the two is achieved, then and only then will a game flourish and retain fans for a long time to come.

Edited December 20, 2015 by Ghost_Spectre

[DarthDymond]

My point is a writer/developer cannot just make changes to the existing meta by adding, interpreting, or morphing something without approval from those in-charge of continuity compliance. Some writer attempting to change something without approval will find themselves less likely to be invited back to participate in any future project.

 

Someone trying to change the basic tenants of what the Light/Dark Force is as laid down by the originator because they want to make it seem, appear, or is something other than what it was original detailed as will require the ultimate approval of someone like Lucas or their direct representative with his input.

 

Do you think someone like Stackpole could write in David Webber's Honorverse and make a major change to make the Manicorians look like pirates and rampaging murders on his own without Webber saying it's fine with him? No, he cannot. Any writer in the SW universe must seek prior approval for making such changes that can radically alter the meta of said universe that may or may not directly clash with continuity.

 

What I'm seeing from many (my opinion from observation) people trying to make the Force as a whole as neutral and it is humans that make it evil...I call it the grey scale syndrome. In every movie, which are the absolute authority for canon, the force is represented by two distinct sides, Light & Dark. Ying and Yang. The Jedi use the force (light side) for good and as an aid to do what is necessary to help others. The Sith use the dark side for whatever their heart's desire (evil). The dark side is alluring, it seduces a person to itself, the light side does not. Trying to say that the force is 'neutral' goes against against what Lucas said the force is and how he represents it in his movies.

I agree 100% that in a shared universe an individual writer (especially one writing under contract, like most SW authors are) is going to have a ton of guidelines, and anything they write is going to be vetted by the IP holders. Even before the "Story Group" as it exists today was established, there was a continuity team that did a ton of work trying to keep things consistent across the published works.

 

But there's a difference between policing the continuity of something that is firmly established ("No, Mr. Hypothetical Author, you can't write about Han and Chewie going on an adventure in Wild Space in 35 ABY - Chewie died ten years earlier.") and something that is not well defined ("Well, the only thing we know about Hyperspace is that without precise calculations we could fly right through a star or bounce too close to a supernova, so... sure we can say gravity fields will pull something out of Hyperspace, go ahead Mr. Zahn and introduce the idea of Interdictor Cruisers.").

 

And the nature of the Force... yeah that was not well defined. That's why we went from Jedi apprentices disappearing and becoming one with the Force whenever they die, to Jedi Masters leaving bodies and it being 'special training' that only Yoda and Obi-Wan had. That's why we had midichlorians showing up. That's why we went from Vergere bringing a new understanding of the Force in New Jedi Order to her being a Sith trying to corrupt the Jedi in Legacy of the Force. That's why we went back and forth between "Balance is the Light Side, out-of-Balance is the Dark Side" to the Light and the Dark in a yin-yang Balance against each other on Mortis.

 

Again, Lucas is no Tolkien or Martin, his world building boiled down to playing it by ear as he went along - and where the continuity team at LucasArts could pin down specific facts and principles about the world he was spinning, they did. But for a lot of stuff, including the nature of the Force, things were always vague or incomplete enough that they were open to different interpretations.

 

And Lucas himself was usually not directly involved - he'd come in for some huge things ("No, you can't kill Luke to kick off New Jedi Order"), or apparently pop in from time to time when the mood struck him ("Hey guys, whatcha working on? No, no, no, if Anakin Solo becomes the next hero that will get people confused with Anakin Skywalker in the prequel stuff we're making - make the other guy... Jason? Jacen, yeah, him! Make him the hero."). That's why when he was directly involved you saw him making changes to stuff that had been approved for years or even decades - "Korriban? That sounds too much like Coruscant. Make it Moraband instead" was a decision he made in 2013, twenty years after LucasArts okayed Korriban as the homeworld of the Sith. Lucas's lack of direct input was one of the big reasons for the C-Canon / G-Canon split.

 

tl;dr: the 'basic tenants' of the Force weren't very well-defined by the originator, so even with an approval process in place things got inconsistent - both in the works of other authors and Lucas himself.

Edited December 20, 2015 by DarthDymond