Companion Changes in 4.0.2

[eartharioch]

or sloppiness,but yes... pretty much.

 

It's a famous saying (Hanlon's Razor)...I would use sloppiness (or incompetence) instead of "stupidity" myself. That said, I am referring to EA/BW the company (as the developer/publisher) as a whole, not any particular department (dev, QA, whatever) in particular. As I have said before, based on swtor's history, they will ship whatever compiles on the release date whether it's WAI or not.

 

It's easy to blame the devs and QA, but (at least in the companies where I've worked as a dev), they don't make the final decision. They can advise management of the state of the program, but management ultimately decides whether or not the "known issues" constitute "acceptable losses" or not.

[MeNaCe-NZ]

This is where comps being OP being optional would make everything better. That way you could have it as challenging as you want and others could have it as easy as they want. Incentives and rewards could be put in place to make people want to challenge themselves when playing.

 

Then why not just run around the open world killing mobs and elites? If you don't want to be "heroic" then don't do the heroics.

[Ghisallo]

@eartharioch

 

I know the saying, just like you I did not think "stupidity" applied here.

 

I agree entirely. EA's current CEO is a pretty unforgivable SOB. I have no doubt that if it was up to BW they would have delayed the release BUT when you have the CFO at an earnings call saying they expect you to grow A LOT in the fall and winter of 2015 because of a new movie, you launch...period. Sloppiness is often a byproduct of haste.

Edited November 18, 2015 by Ghisallo

[AyeEs]

Neither of those is actually true. It was easy and non-challenging on Monday, and still possible today.

 

I speak of my own experience. I did not find the Heroic Star Fortress easy or non-challenging. I figure I am an average player, and probably had 4-6 deaths in my run, including 3 against the Exarch.

 

Here are numbers from my parse on the same heroic level Paladin

Lana healing (influence 26)

Monday 6462 HPS

Tuesday 1776 HPS

Difference 72.5%

 

My damage taken per second

Monday 6567 DTPS

Tuesday 6341 DTPS

 

Monday Lana was a little behind on the heals, but acceptable. Tuesday, there was no chance of Lana keeping up. Again, if they didn't want us soloing the Heroic Star Fortress, they wouldn't have put an achievement for soloing the Exarch.

[Ghisallo]

Don't forget her shields do not parse. And if your numbers are correct, how are any of us clearing the Heroic SF with Lana as a healer? Edited November 18, 2015 by Ghisallo

[MeNaCe-NZ]

I

Monday Lana was a little behind on the heals, but acceptable. Tuesday, there was no chance of Lana keeping up. Again, if they didn't want us soloing the Heroic Star Fortress, they wouldn't have put an achievement for soloing the Exarch.

 

It's an achievement ... no one said it should be easy. You actually need achieve something for it and now people can.

[AyeEs]

I can only give the numbers StarParse puts out. I am guessing different classes have an easier time. Maybe better gear, I have 208 with 216 main and offhand. I don't have an explanation. Bioware has all the numbers though. I would love to see numbers from others that are clearing Heroic SF post 4.0.2

[LordArtemis]

The comment keeps being made that H2+ are supposed to be done with another player, not a companion....or at least that is the gist of what is being conveyed by a few IMO.

 

Eric Musco has clearly indicated, on multiple occasions that that is not the case. The difficulty was lowered and companions boosted specifically so players could run H2+ with a companion.

 

Absolutely! It certainly may be a bit more challenging than before but you can complete them. The intent is that you can complete any [Heroic 2] with your Companion counting as one of the two. If you find this isn't true for any Heroics tomorrow, let us know.

 

-eric

 

Hey Ghisallo,

 

Good questions, let me take a stab at them.

 

First answer - This wasn't a QA issue as it isn't a bug. Our goal with Fallen Empire was to ensure that all of our story content was very accessible to all players, new and old. The power of Companions was certainly a part of that, and so we do want them to be strong. However, we went a bit too far on the strong side, and need to bring that back in line.

 

Second answer - You can kind of see from the first answer that this will work to fix the issue and not be a band-aid as it is just a question of balancing. Now, it is always possible we will make future tweaks, but this should bring Companions more in line. They will still be strong, but they will not overshadow the power of a player.

 

-eric

 

And of course the patch notes.

 

Heroic Missions

Nearly all Heroic Missions have been adjusted to be completed by groups of 2+. This means that most former [Heroic 4] missions have had their difficulties reduced.

 

And so, one has to draw some absolute facts from these statements, unless you accuse EM and the folks that write the patch notes of being dishonest....

 

1) Most Heroics were reduced in difficulty to H2+.

2) Bioware intended one of the H2+ people to be your companion as an option.

3) Companions were set to the powers they had ON PURPOSE to facilitate ease doing new and old content.

 

Star Fortress may indeed be a special case, and in that case the above may not apply.

 

These are absolute facts. Not conjecture, not hearsay, actual facts. Enough with the hyperbole.

Edited November 18, 2015 by LordArtemis

[Ghisallo]

I can only give the numbers StarParse puts out. I am guessing different classes have an easier time. Maybe better gear, I have 208 with 216 main and offhand. I don't have an explanation. Bioware has all the numbers though. I would love to see numbers from others that are clearing Heroic SF post 4.0.2

 

Oh I get that BUT you have to remember that Starparse doesn't show the entire story. This is actually half the problem I have had with SWTOR. I am a big guy on knowing why something isn't working right but the combat log doesn't record shielding in such a way that a parser can plot it. So based on "healing taken" I know that Lana healed me for only 1231 HPS and 1125EHPs on the last fight in the Nar Shadda SF, and that I lived. What she shielded me for? What if anything did saber reflect do? (its a melee heavy fight) and such? No clue so I can't figure out the whole equation.

 

Well this weekend I'll be able to see if there is a big difference between JK Guard and Commando at least.

[Ghisallo]

The comment keeps being made that H2+ are supposed to be done with another player, not a companion....or at least that is the gist of what is being conveyed by a few IMO.

 

Enough with the hyperbole.

 

Agreed. I think the problem here though maybe that people are assuming ever player and every class should be able to do them at the same pace/time. I am suspecting that if/when I get around to doing them on my agent I may have a harder time. Fewer defensive cooldowns, less AoE dps, less armor overall etc. This means I will likely need to be more careful with my gear and my rotations. This however is often a consequence of having "variety" in a MMO...different classes are better suited to different situations/encounters. Add into the is various levels of player skill/knowledge/desire to the "more challenging" comment Eric made... and "experiences will vary" in terms of when you can accomplish something.

[kylezo]

I personally was doing stuff I had no business doing (in full PvP gear doing heroic 4 dailies for rakghoul event solo with level ~10 companions at 100% health the whole entire time) before the patch. The nerf may have been ~20% too excessive but that's not something I'm gonna get my knickers in a twist about.

[Adaarye]

So this is why you have solo AND heroic versions of stuff. Yes I know they say the SF' heroics should be soloable, they are BUT they are also supposed to be a challenge. This means some people will not be able to do them, it sucks but that is how it is. The very existence of challenge (Eric's words) means some people will fall through the cracks, OR need to do more work before they can walk in the door etc. no two players are the same. It's why you have tactical and HM flashpoints and its why sometimes, when a company makes a mistake and causes players to be overpowered they have to be retuned to a lower level.

 

But when this happens, Bioware must be prepared for players to express displeasure with their wallets. Would it not have been better to test, test, and test the expansion/companions again than to have them handled this in the shoddy manner they were dealt with?

 

Giving casual players a way to have a lot of fun without tedium or the necessity to group and then snatching that ability away again is not going to gain Bioware much goodwill from those of us who are very dissatisfied with and disappointed in the severity of the nerf.

[Halinalle]

Tank companions didn't get a huge hit.

 

I started Cyber Mercenaries on Voss with rank 10 Iresso but half way through I decided to check how well companion with very low influence would survive in tank mode.

 

Rank 1 Akk Dog in tanking mode, last boss:

 

I'm not a good player (some even say I'm the worst MMO player ever).

Edited November 18, 2015 by Halinalle

[Deyjarl]

This is where comps being OP being optional would make everything better.

 

Making the toughest solo content negligible would make it better?

 

Rather than doing the other things you could do to get them done like gearing, grouping, not just standing in the middle of the AOE attacks, using a ranged companion rather than melee (they stay out of damage you are taking far better), you'd prefer to just make the content meaningless.

 

I've no problem with them doing some more minor tweeks (not that they really need them), but a god mode button is not something I'll ever support.

[shawn_the_geek]

Then why not just run around the open world killing mobs and elites? If you don't want to be "heroic" then don't do the heroics.

Except I do solo the heroics. That's besides the point. Making companions OP optional means both sides can play the way they want. You can play the game as challenging as you want and others can play the game as easy as they want.

 

It would also foster compromise between the community and make it less divided. The people that unsubbed because of it would most likely resub. It helps and benefits everyone involved.

[Ghisallo]

But when this happens, Bioware must be prepared for players to express displeasure with their wallets. Would it not have been better to test, test, and test the expansion/companions again than to have them handled this in the shoddy manner they were dealt with?

 

Giving casual players a way to have a lot of fun without tedium or the necessity to group and then snatching that ability away again is not going to gain Bioware much goodwill from those of us who are very dissatisfied with and disappointed in the severity of the nerf.

 

I agree that yes... they should be prepared to take heat. I also agree they should test/test/test. BUT remember... if a CEO says "launch in the fall so we can make bank on the new movie or it's your job" you launch in the fall. This is the wonderful world of Corporate America /sarcasm off.

 

Also, one of the things that I have always wondered is this. I consider myself a casual player now and have for the last few years. RL and all that. because of this I look for games where the GAME PLAY, suits me. I find this game, even with the change, far more casual friendly than any other MMO I have played. So what really is a "casua" player? Is it time? is it effort? Is it content?

[shawn_the_geek]

Making the toughest solo content negligible would make it better?

 

Rather than doing the other things you could do to get them done like gearing, grouping, not just standing in the middle of the AOE attacks, using a ranged companion rather than melee (they stay out of damage you are taking far better), you'd prefer to just make the content meaningless.

 

I've no problem with them doing some more minor tweeks (not that they really need them), but a god mode button is not something I'll ever support.

The great thing about stuff being optional means you don't have to use it. It's there for the people that want to use it. I can guarantee you that it would not effect or affect you in the slightest.

 

People should be able to play how they want without it hurting anyone else and my idea is the best option.

[LordArtemis]

Making the toughest solo content negligible would make it better?

 

Rather than doing the other things you could do to get them done like gearing, grouping, not just standing in the middle of the AOE attacks, using a ranged companion rather than melee (they stay out of damage you are taking far better), you'd prefer to just make the content meaningless.

 

I've no problem with them doing some more minor tweeks (not that they really need them), but a god mode button is not something I'll ever support.

 

The god button has always existed in this game, lets be serious....and it still does. That much will likely never change.

Edited November 18, 2015 by LordArtemis

[Adaarye]

And of course the patch notes.

 

Heroic Missions

Nearly all Heroic Missions have been adjusted to be completed by groups of 2+. This means that most former [Heroic 4] missions have had their difficulties reduced.

 

And so, one has to draw some absolute facts from these statements, unless you accuse EM and the folks that write the patch notes of being dishonest....

 

1) Most Heroics were reduced in difficulty to H2+.

2) Bioware intended one of the H2+ people to be your companion as an option.

3) Companions were set to the powers they had ON PURPOSE to facilitate ease doing new and old content.

 

Note the word "ease" here. Did Bioware have a change of heart? I think they caved, plain and simple. Or this has all been a bait and switch as someone mentioned elsewhere. It worked on me .. I spent a ton of cash on CC. Made all my characters shine, existing and new insta 60s. Oh what a bad move. I should have waited to see how things would pan out.

 

I've unsub'd. I am eating 3 insta 60 purchases and CC for cosmetics. I will never trust Bioware again. Well I won't trust Bioware SWTOR. I love the rest of the titles and own all of the DLC and would buy it all again.

Edited November 18, 2015 by Adaarye

[SettGirkkurn]

• Companion base stats have been reduced.
  
• Companion damage and healing output has been reduced.
  

 

We did want to make some improvements to tanking Companions:

• We increased the threat generated by tank companions, so they should be able to hold the attention of enemy NPCs better than before.
  
• We fixed an issue involving the tank companion’s mass grapple ability, it will no longer pull in enemies that are out of combat.
  

 

-eric

 

Hello Eric,

 

since you have posted here this nicely written explanation, I really would like you to answer few questions (more of rhetoric, since I don't really expect answers to any of them)

1. whose idea was to OP companions?

2. whose idea was to sledge-hammer it down?

3. does any of above actually know how the mechanics works or they just slap in some numbers and call it a day?

4. explain to us please, how healing companion that is level 30 and do 1400 hps is "competitive"

5. are you planing to "tweak" it more, or you will just forget about it like you did with slot machine fiasco?

Thanks

 

P.S.

Absolutely! It certainly may be a bit more challenging than before but you can complete them. The intent is that you can complete any [Heroic 2] with your Companion counting as one of the two. If you find this isn't true for any Heroics tomorrow, let us know.

 

-eric

 

Pics or it didn't happened. You have your stream, please show to us peasants how you solo H2+ Star Fortress, for example Nar Shaddaa one with your healing companion.

Edited November 18, 2015 by SettGirkkurn

[Ghisallo]

The great thing about stuff being optional means you don't have to use it. It's there for the people that want to use it. I can guarantee you that it would not effect or affect you in the slightest.

 

People should be able to play how they want without it hurting anyone else and my idea is the best option.

 

And again it ignores one of the primary requirements of a persistent world MMORPG, consistent and predictible challenge. Yes this means player experience will vary for a multitude of factors, but an MMORPG with a persistent world needs this uniformity so that thepersistent world can be properly designed.

 

I agree your idea makes sense for instancing. SWTOR tries to address this with their Tactical/SM/HM/NiM paradigm. But in so far as having happen in the Open and persistent world it makes the game, from the perspective of the devs trying to track difficulty, time to complete etc a nightmare.

Edited November 18, 2015 by Ghisallo

[Akeashar]

I personally was doing stuff I had no business doing (in full PvP gear doing heroic 4 dailies for rakghoul event solo with level ~10 companions at 100% health the whole entire time) before the patch. The nerf may have been ~20% too excessive but that's not something I'm gonna get my knickers in a twist about.

 

Couldn't do the Rakghoul Heroic 4 or Lurker with my Sith Warrior solo, and that was with an influence 20 companion in 208 PvE gear on Healbot duty. Either she'd go down, or I'd go down, and not in a fun way. we won't talk about what happened the one time I set her to tank mode.

 

With my Trooper in mixed 208 and made gear? It was challenging but not impossible, just time consuming, using my full mix of cooldowns. I'm glad I got to do it before the patch, because theres no way that I'd be able to likely do either post-patch with how badly gimped the healing metrics are.

Edited November 18, 2015 by Akeashar

[LordArtemis]

Note the word "ease" here. Did Bioware have a change of heart? I think they caved, plain and simple. Or this has all been a bait and switch as someone mentioned elsewhere. It worked on me .. I spent a ton of cash on CC. Made all my characters shine, existing and new insta 60s. Oh what a bad move. I should have waited to see how things would pan out.

 

I am eating 3 insta 60 purchases and CC for cosmetics. I will never trust Bioware again. Well I won't trust Bioware SWTOR. I love the rest of the titles and own all of the DLC and would buy it all again.

 

I personally do not think bait and switch or that sort of thing was/is likely. I think that is giving Bioware far too much credit frankly.

 

I think this was yet another stumble, added to a line of stumbles over the last year. I don't know what happened, if they lost someone, or hired someone, but something happened around the time they decided to go on the balance crusade....the screwups started streaming out and they kept up the pace.

 

IMO they have certainly made some whopping mistakes. This is definitely one of them. But I do think talking about it before the patch mitigated it a bit, so that was a good move.

Edited November 18, 2015 by LordArtemis

[RealKraschman]

And yet people are doing it.

 

A few people are doing it. With certain professions, specializations, uber level gear and quite high influence and even then it's far from easy. Especially if you're a ranged character you have a bit easier road.

 

Everyone else has little to no hope whatsoever.

 

Actually I wouldn't mind except for the requirement to do the Heroic version for unlocking recruits. Change it to solo mode instead and leave heroics for those who want to seriously test themselves and all is golden.

 

Further research on my part has added more info. The Regular and Strong mobs not much of any issue, even in groups. Even the Champions are DOABLE (Although I only got as far as the Data Center) but seriously tough, which is as it should be.

 

The Knights of Zakuul specifically OTOH are just brutal. Way too overpowered, and in many ways actually harder than champion level mobs in my experience. Reduce their strength and all might actually be good. Lowering the champs a touch as well wouldn't hurt.

[Ksen]

After testing with different heroic and one SF run (doable with my vanguard, not so much with my op) - companions still glitchy but now they glitchy and dying quickly. And it's more time consuming. And yes its not so fun anymore.

Also i encounter new bug with autoloot. But at this moment it the least of my problem with this game.