Elitism and Operations

[nightsproull]

I think that people should feel a bit obligated to do a basic read-up on the mechanics of each fight.

 

On the other hand, there are a lot of people in pugs who are incredibly rude and hostile, overreacting to any request for additional info.

[wmst]

I have for the most part stopped doing any sort of GF ops as a pug specifically because of above mentioned reasons. While i do not believe that gear is of any importance for SM operation, i do believe that every single person that chooses to participate in GF operation or other public group event should be able to carry his\her own weight, e.g be at least reasonably geared (even if slightly below operation requirements, but not in outrageous lvl 50 greens), be aware about at least core mechanics and have some idea how his own abilities and cooldowns work.

It is just a common courtesy. Explaining tactics and learning the fights is best done with guild runs via voice comms when a person can receive much better pointers in a timely fashion. Explaining basic tactics is easy and takes 1-2 minutes, so there is no harm in typing out some refresher pointers, but in a pug you should really not expect people to typing in walls of text for your comfort.

People do GF ops for gear, comms and some for decos\achievements. They do not do it for social engagements and random chat about weather. They just wanna kill stuff, loot stuff and move on. Ops runs for fun and giggles are usually a guild runs with ppl hanging out in TS\Mumble and whatnot. So, at least in my opinion, if the person is unable to learn the fights with his guild (e.g. doesnt have one), he should at least dedicate 5-10 minutes of his life to read up tactics. it is not hard, it is just respectful to other group members and allows to avoid alot of unnecessary arguments, blame games and dramas.

[JouerTue]

Yeah, this is why I don't do Operations. Too many people who will insult/kick you for not having done it before, which makes it really hard to get into. I used to try Queing for SM OPs, I got 4 pops, 3 of which kicked me before the run started when I admitted I hadn't run the content before.

 

you should try again because that is not the normality of a SM pug. join a fleet forming group and say you are first timer before venturing inside, read the mecs on dulfy and be sure to let them know that you did that. the general tips for a dps are don't stand in aoe/telegraphs and be aware of the main mechanics so to not be shotted by something you should avoid, like hiding behind the rocks at the underlurker. put the boss in focus target to see if something particular is happening. watch if you have strange debuffs, those generally mean you can try to cleanse yourself or that you have to not stand close to other group members. if you do these things, they'll hardly kick you once you start.

also nowadays SM are really easy so the general rudeness and fear to wipe or waste time should be mitigated by that.

[MaximusRex]

It is really irritating when people show up to the operation blindly and expect to be pampered and carried through.

 

This argument works both ways, if you aren't willing to help your team succeed by taking a few minutes to explain the fight, aren't you also expecting to be pampered and carried through?

 

If a player doesn't want to deal with having less experienced players they shouldn't be doing group finder.

[Jimvinny]

This argument works both ways, if you aren't willing to help your team succeed by taking a few minutes to explain the fight, aren't you also expecting to be pampered and carried through?

 

If a player doesn't want to deal with having less experienced players they shouldn't be doing group finder.

 

There is a difference between "less experienced", and "NO experience.". As someone above mentioned, the onus is on the player with no experience to let the rest of the group know. At that point, the group can decide if they want to deal with that. The time to do that is NOT after three bosses.

[Omite]

Anyone know of a good resource to read up on some of the mechanics? I'm pretty much a total newb and would like to start getting into some PVE content.

[DomiSotto]

It's Dulfy's site, what the guys referred to (google Dulfy SWTOR and the name of the Op you are researching). But, to be honest, when you start out, reading the guides for all 9 operations with 5+ bosses each, and omitted trash pulls is going to be daunting.

 

I know it sounds like a huge gate, but starting with a relaxed casual guild that does recite the guide before every fight and doesn't mind a few death and a wipe or two on each run is going to be by far easier on you than trying to memorize your 50 fights most of which are very similar and do not go exactly the way they do in Dulfy's movies of an ideal strong group.

 

I suggest you at least wait for the simplest Ops to start with, Eternity Vault or Karagga's Palace.

 

But, yes, guild will be the best, because in a pug folks expect a perfect execution in the most imperfect set up where nobody knows anybody and there is no voice comm.

Edited November 16, 2015 by DomiSotto

[benficakungfu]

Hah mate whomever speaks like that to othera must necesserily suck at the game, met some awesome plyers in this game and they are generally the goofie kind of peeps really nice and jolly they also dont do SMs so thats that i guess xD

 

In a more serious reply i think its admirable that you didnt drop after the first **** off, was a for of relate i can tell you once doing ToS i was in charge of bombs in a sm pug, SS boss, and i forgot to pick last one xD to wich some duderino wrote " what a moron" to whom i replied, "now you do the bombs big man" you think he did mate? He was silent for the rest of op ...

 

So thumbs up to you for standing integral but thumbs down for categorizing the situation.

[Makillda]

Not reading all of this but I will say, if I was leading that raid, the "elitist" would have been kicked at the first "eff off."

[Declan_Vee]

I'm not sure I quite understand the purpose of this thread. I'd almost go as far as to say you're confusing elitism with smwarriorism. A true elitist would be happy to teach someone with zero experience in the operation; at least they wouldn't pick up any of the bad habits with have been swamping the game from the carry-mode overgearing/overleveling of the last couple of years.

 

tl;dr your elitist is just a bad with a big head.

[Darkwords]

The best one so far for me was a KP run where the other healer jumped all the way down the elevator instead of stopping in the middle and was dead at the bottom. I jockeyed around a little to begin rezzing and I see my group running way ahead and starting another combat without either healer. This window licker says, "(my name), you are supposed to follow your group not just stand there!". I didn't even bother with an explanation and just said, "I don't like you", then simply bailed. Stupidity that profound does not deserve an explanation hehe.

 

If you want me to stay with the group in your flurry to keep moving then, lazy dps that can rez...stay back and do so, we are not the only class that can rez but we are the only class that can keep your dumb self alive.

[AlrikFassbauer]

A true elitist would be happy to teach someone with zero experience in the operation;

 

This is not the definition of "Elitism" that I know of.

The definition I know is that "Elitists" are those who firmly believe that they're better than anyone else, and don't want to mix with the plebs, cynically put.

And yes, the word "plebs" has already been used in this forum ...

 

I suggest you at least wait for the simplest Ops to start with, Eternity Vault or Karagga's Palace.

 

Karagga, by far, in my opinion. Eternity Chamber is more difficult, bcause of the end fight with lots of jumping. Yes, even the lava lake is more dangerous than anything in Karagga's Palace.

Edited November 18, 2015 by AlrikFassbauer

[gabigool]

So I have some more thoughts on this after doing a TFB gf pug on the pub side last night.

 

Had 5 of us in mumble, members of my imp team - both tanks and 3 dps. Threw up LFM in fleet chat and filled up quickly and ported in. Before first boss, the pug DPS (I'm not positive, but I think he was ranged) let us know he'd never done the instance before.

 

One of the other pugs, a healer, pretty much kept trying to push us along before each boss when i tried to do a quick explanation in ops chat. Nothing rude, not at all really, but I felt some impatience.

 

I'm going to list what I typed for each boss and why. I think the issue I have with this scenario will become clear.

 

1) WH: I marked the three flower spots with the markers and said "Never ever stand in these spots, and never stand anywhere you see red" "Basically DPS the boss the whole time". Then I let the rest of the raid know who was doing flowers.

 

I didn't bother explaining the adds/JM mechanic. I didn't see much point - the other 3 DPS wrecked everything. The boss was dead before the 2nd Jealous Male was.

 

2) DG: I just marked the three bosses with icons and said "kill flame, then target, then saber". "If you get red text saying you have Doom, run through two circles and make sure the debuff is gone" "If you see a yellow beam tethered to you from the saber boss, run away from her".

 

I didn't bother explaining Surging Chain it would have taken longer than it would have shortened the fight.

 

3) Op9: put the guy who didn't know the fight as blue/middle. "Stand in middle circle until it turns orange". "Then go to the outside of room and kill the cores with the other DPS" "Phase 2 we all come to middle, when you see colors stand in blue circles until they disappear"

 

I didn't bother explaining how the channel works.

 

4) Kephess: "Tank and spank"

 

Not much need to say anything else

 

5) TFB: marked the other DPS that was on his side and told him to just stand wherever that DPS was, move with that DPS and kill whatever that DPS was killing. "When the giant tentacles burrow into the ground, run to the beach. Avoid the adds that come towards the beach, stay between them".

 

I basically didn't explain a thing, because how do you explain it?

 

Now - if we were all in voice coms it's a different set of explanations. But in chat, with other pugs that (allegedly) know what they're doing, I just simply gave him the bare-bones basic version of what he needed to do to not wipe us and to contribute something. And it worked fine. The fights all went super simply.

 

And I think this is what the OP would have liked to have had.

 

But what has he actually learned? Nothing. What will he do next time? What if the next pug, someone tells him to get in the flowers? Asks why he's not on Ciphas during Surging Chain? Or channel a console? Break a pillar? Kite spit? Hes back at square 1. And this is just TFB.

 

I was in an EC pug last week where I was literally the only person that knew the fights. (Well, there was the other tank who thought he knew the fights - he told everyone to stand behind him on the ground while he tanked Stormcaller. I didn't say anything for lulz.) Once we got to minefield (and the other tank left, replaced by DPS PT queued as tank) we literally couldn't get it down. I explained the console, but it kept being done wrong. DPS PT jet charged to assassin droids. The one droid we killed enraged at 30%.

 

I know these things have historically been faceroll, but at level it's not trivial to be in a group of people with literally zero understanding of fights if you want to make it take less than 3 hours.

 

Again - I'm not supporting/applauding/encouraging the type of comments OP was subjected to. But I think it is reasonable to expect people who desire the achievements and rewards of ANY level of operations play to at least take 3 minutes of their time before hitting queue to review the first fight and have the page open in the background to peruse during trash before the next pull.

 

Am I more than happy to review mechanics or explain assignments in chat? Certainly. But I think expecting people to carry you is rude and in some scenarios, it's literally not possible.

[AlrikFassbauer]

(Well, there was the other tank who thought he knew the fights - he told everyone to stand behind him on the ground while he tanked Stormcaller. I didn't say anything for lulz.)

 

Not very team-minded from you, either.

 

Instead of having your own lulz, you could have told him that this is most likely going to fail. But instead, you had your fun, all others except you hadn't. I assume that this fight was full wipe because "for the lulz".

Edited November 18, 2015 by AlrikFassbauer

[Jamtas]

So many thoughts on this.

 

1) it sucks to be on receiving end of those rants. Can't take any of it personally. Try beign on a losing team in any WZ. There's bound to be someone who tells entrie group how bad they are during the entrie match who you see at end was on bottom of chart for all things (heals, dps, kills, objectives) and you shake your head. Pissed off grumps will be pissed off grumps.

 

2) Have to disagree that GF is a place to learn ops. You have to be respectful of other people's time. If everyone shows up with mentality of being prepared, op can go smooth. If everyone shows up with the mindset of group can teach me, you all of the sudden have an entire group who can't move through the op. To be blunt, I view it as being abit self centered to think it is the "responsiblity" of others to teach me...esp strangers.

 

3) A guild is great for this. I've been through with many guildies teaching and learning operations, FPs, and other things in game (rotations for classes, gearing/ min-maxing, etc) There are plenty of guilds on each server either faction who have no issue teaching new people parts of the game. This is true "community" you speak of.

 

4) You made no mention of this, but as a personal aside, I wish those who join GF for FP or Ops and are in it to learn would have mumble, TS or some form of the voice chats downloaded. If you don't ahve a mic, so be it- but it makes life so much easier for the people you are playing with to just be able to speak and not have to stop to type things out. And it's really helpful because they can give more timely heads up and updates in voice - "hey, you're about to see this." "so and so has doom, etc" IT's by no menas mandattory, but I feel like it is a great common courtesy to let people have ability to speak with you vs having to type it out. You'll find more people willing to speak and help than to stop what they are doing to type

[Scinald]

You should come do PvP instead. I can guarantee we are at least as nice as these people AND we can't kick you from group.

 

[psikofunkster]

You should come do PvP instead. I can guarantee we are at least as nice as these people AND we can't kick you from group.

 

 

ha ha trololo

[gabigool]

Not very team-minded from you, either.

 

Instead of having your own lulz, you could have told him that this is most likely going to fail. But instead, you had your fun, all others except you hadn't. I assume that this fight was full wipe because "for the lulz".

 

After the first 20 things you try to explain properly are ignored, maybe even you might give up.

 

But as far as the wipe goes, Im not sure. It could have been one of the other five things I did suggest that were ignored. And I did mention the cleave and I did mention only one person should be on the ground. I was possibly distracted by him telling the dps to ignore the adds on my side and when I mentioned I was just barely getting them down by myself before the next DS he told me to not kill them and let them target a healer. I also had asked if he minded me setting up the fight and he ignored me. So if at some point I decided he was so dead set on being both obnoxious and ignorant that I'd let him run his group his way, I guess that deserves being called out by you.

 

Way to pull the most insignificant point out of that post. /upvote

[DarthCognusSion]

My honest opinion on this is that you were in the wrong. The comments and responses you received telling you to "F off" were unacceptable and completely inexcusable and no amount of frustration on those players' parts can take that away. However, that being said, you should have known those fights if you expected to participate in them. My philosophy on raiding may be unpopular with people who do not do progression, but I feel that it is the best approach whether you are doing SM, HM, or NiM. The most important thing that a person can and should take into an operation, regardless of difficulty, is knowledge. These are general statements, so not all will apply to the OP, but with the amount of GF I have done in this game, these are my gripes with a certain portion of the players.

 

You should know your class. I don't expect you to know your rotation perfectly, and to execute it so that you can beat HM enrage timers in SM, but you should understand how to play it, be you tank, healer, or dps. You should also know all of the fights for every operation you plan on doing. I understand this is a lot of information as there are 9 operations with 3 difficulty modes and 46 bosses. However, no matter what interests you, be that be becoming a better player, being a good member of the community, or just having a good time and enjoying the content that this game offers, it is essential that you know what you are getting into when you enter an operation. Knowing a fight perfectly without having experienced it is pretty much impossible. However, you should know what to look for when you start a fight.

 

I think this where a lot of players don't understand how GF works in reality as opposed to ideally. GF is not a place to learn. GF is a place to do an operation quickly so as to get gear, either for alts or mains, and for some to just enjoy the content. But when doing a GF, people expect it to go quickly. None of these things happen when someone doesn't carry their weight, and it always comes down to knowledge, either of the fight, their class, or both.

So I will admit that I don't give in depth explanations of fights if they are asked for. I will often say don't stand in this or that, and if there is a mechanic that the person must do, then i explain it. But it is frustrating when you go into an operation knowing what you need to know, and other people don't. To me it is discourteous, but as I have said I am someone who enjoys progression raiding, and I am sure there are many who would disagree with me. That is enough of my 2 cents though, and I am sorry you ran into elitist ******es instead of just plain elitists because there is a difference.

[Brittaany_Banks]

Yesterday I ran through a SM GF, and as expected at times during GF SM ops, inconveniences and differences in opinions can happen. Most of the run went okay and literally virtually nothing was said throughout most of the entire op until the 4th boss. I there on stated that my last experience here was less than successful and I would like a refresher on tactics, and the following responses follow:

 

Off tank: Dulfy the mechs

Gunslinger DPS: NEVER overlap circles

Elitist: don't stand in stupid, always attack behind the boss, follow raid group, if you want anymore info dulfy the mechs, it takes 5 mins

Me: Can I please, seriously, get a actual rundown on tactics for this boss?

Raid leader: This is year old SM group content, you should know all the mechs by now.

 

From there on RL does a RC and we pull. Everything goes okay until master shows up and I start to goof. I then stand in stupid, which is 85% of the area, and then accidently run into master resorting to a death. Thankfully, even though they didn't really tell me anything, they are well aware of the mechs and finish the boss. While on our way to the final boss, this long, drawn out, back and forth convo goes on because the adds give us 0 trouble.

 

Elitist: What a moron, I told you all the mechs and you still F up.

Me: You told me a incredibly vague description of what to do which was virtually non helpful. It would be nice to take a few minutes to actually explain what to do next time.

Elitist: F off. Your a underserving moron who demands us to explain mechs.

Raid Leader: This is a SM OPERATION, if you want to learn the mechs then you should get your guild to do it.

Me: We, as a community, should help each other, not just us for your own benefits ( RIP grammar, was attacking mobs.)

Elitist : F off.

Me: You must have attitude problems if your this mad for someone trying to ask for mechs

Elitist: F off. Your a underserving moron who is crap at this game and demands tactics.

Raid leader: get your (my guilds name) to run this if you want to learn how to do it

Me: I shouldn't have to run with my guild to learn all the mechs, as a community were suppose to help each other at times without personal benefit.

Elitist: F off.

Me: So you cant say anything constructive or have a meaningful actual response to this argument, so you just say F off every time because you cant think of anything better?

Elitist: F off, what argument?

 

I read this far. I understand there is more but I wanted to respond specifically to this since it is the meat and potatoes of the issue.

 

I am what YOU would consider an elitist. That doesn't mean I am one but you would consider me one. No not THAT person that was in your group. I wouldn't curse at you for needing mechanics explained but I can see where the frustration is on both sides of the argument. You explained your side now let me explain mine as "The Elitist"

 

When you talk about us being a community and supporting each other I get where you are coming from. Asking for help from the community you play the game with is a strength not a weakness. However, we are talking about group finder story mode here. There are guides in text online in numerous places which will explain boss fights in excruciating fashion, and there are COUNTLESS videos on youtube which do the same. Those too are part of this community you can get info from but are not using.

 

People like me who do group finder story mode content are not there to teach people how to do the OP in the majority . We are there for gear/commendations, and we want to get it done as fast as possible. You said and I quote "I shouldn't have to run with my guild to learn all the mechs"...why are you part of a guild then? This at its core are what guilds are designed for. If you want boots on the ground "in OP" training then that is what a guild is designed for. If your guild is not willing to do that then maybe it is time for a new guild.

 

In closing I do not agree with how the person handled the situation. I however understand where they are coming from. This is old content. There are resources online for you to get familiar with mechanics and tactics. You REFUSE to take advantage of those resources. In my personal opinion you should learn mechanics of an OP BEFORE joining group finder. Have the common courtesy to not be a drag on your team of randoms who are there to do it quickly.

[Scinald]

ha ha trololo

 

Heh...not trolling. Go re-read all the responses and the couple after mine and you'll see that the "big bad PvPers" are not the only people who lack tolerance or the desire to help others learn parts of the game. As a matter of fact, I have had far worse experiences (except for a stalker from Ranked) from PvE folks harassing and insulting me than from PvP folks.

 

And, I guarantee you that for most WZs you enter, if you said in chat "I am new to this WZ and need help" you will get one of the following two responses:

 

1) Some people will drop (b/c they are wimps)

2) At least one other person will try to help you out with the objectives and basics.

 

You might get a couple of "noob" comments before or after the match but it, apparently, is no worse than this.

Edited November 19, 2015 by Scinald

[AlrikFassbauer]

I think I should be lucky that I've got a few friends who'd show and explain things if I asked them. I mean, they are guild members and guild leaders, but I never joined their guilds.

 

Good friends who are helpful are as good as gold in these ages.

[psikofunkster]

Heh...not trolling. Go re-read all the responses and the couple after mine and you'll see that the "big bad PvPers" are not the only people who lack tolerance or the desire to help others learn parts of the game. As a matter of fact, I have had far worse experiences (except for a stalker from Ranked) from PvE folks harassing and insulting me than from PvP folks.

 

And, I guarantee you that for most WZs you enter, if you said in chat "I am new to this WZ and need help" you will get one of the following two responses:

 

1) Some people will drop (b/c they are wimps)

2) At least one other person will try to help you out with the objectives and basics.

 

You might get a couple of "noob" comments before or after the match but it, apparently, is no worse than this.

 

Lol...we cant kick you from the group, so if you pvprs could, you would kick so many....

[Lirtoo]

Problem is that elitists lack empathy and long term memory. They have forgotten that they once were new to the game. Someone should open their window for oxygen for their brain to work properly. I was treated so badly when I joined this game two years ago. And I do everything I can now to be the opposite of what they were to new players.

 

Another issue is that pugs are huge spoilers. The elitists takes the joy away from figuring out stuff by yourself and tell you everything "you should know". Also in FP's people demand new players to skip films. It's really rude.

[DarthCognusSion]

Problem is that elitists lack empathy and long term memory. They have forgotten that they once were new to the game. Someone should open their window for oxygen for their brain to work properly. I was treated so badly when I joined this game two years ago. And I do everything I can now to be the opposite of what they were to new players.

 

Another issue is that pugs are huge spoilers. The elitists takes the joy away from figuring out stuff by yourself and tell you everything "you should know". Also in FP's people demand new players to skip films. It's really rude.

 

Actually right here is a problematic assumption. Yeah sure some elitists might, but some of us do remember. I remember going into pugs knowing not only the mechanics for the fights I was doing in SM, but also the HM ones. So I don't expect a PUG to know the higher level mechanics, but I do expect them to know the SM ones. I remember where I started, and I remember how hard I worked to get where I am. Sometimes people need to stop expecting to have everything spoon fed to them and work towards achieving things on their own.