TUXs Posted November 12, 2015 Share Posted November 12, 2015 When the PVP fits in with the spirit of SWTOR the way I have played it, I'll take part in it. Until then, PVP is no part of the "spirit of the game". And I will not dignify it by treating it as such. Enjoy not having 4X then. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Reno_Tarshil Posted November 12, 2015 Share Posted November 12, 2015 Here is my biggest problem with Fourex and Pierce... And it has to do with story... So we are supposed to be allied with each other to take down the Eternal Empire... So why are we promoting fighting with each other... Just from a story standpoint it is a poor design and does not fit with the story... Just another thought. You're playing Lazer tag to improve yourself. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TUXs Posted November 12, 2015 Share Posted November 12, 2015 It's clear from the last 25 pages that the current system is flawed, as it doesn't work either for encouraging PvP participation or for keeping people doing the alliance chains. I would suggest either: Remove the PvP requirement, give PvE missions for all companions, ignore PvP for the next 18 months (BW's usual MO). or Change PvP requirement from 20 WZ to 10 wins in which player earns 10 or more medals. Completely defeats griefing/afking tactics, but would undoubtedly upset a larger number of people. I honestly don't see any flaw, other than your final point. But 10 medals? How about 5 or 6? And 10 wins can be a killer...know how many weeklies I've completed the hard way? 10/5 or even 8/4 would be fine...but I really like the medal criteria. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SkybladeDarkstar Posted November 12, 2015 Share Posted November 12, 2015 I honestly don't see any flaw, other than your final point. But 10 medals? How about 5 or 6? And 10 wins can be a killer...know how many weeklies I've completed the hard way? 10/5 or even 8/4 would be fine...but I really like the medal criteria. You don't see any flaw because you enjoy PVP. When you have content that people hate so much that they're willing to complain about it at a rate of 15 posts a day... There's something clearly flawed. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
robertthebard Posted November 12, 2015 Share Posted November 12, 2015 Yes, really Robert. You don't have to PvP. The M1-4X companion is optional. The content following M1-4X is gated by PvPing for 4X...so if you want to do it, suck it up and hop in the WZ's. It's a perfectly fine trade off and completely reasonable for Bioware to do imo. It's a reward for participating in part of the game...nothing more. It's incentive to play WZ's - not forced and hardly that intimidating. What happens if I don't want to recruit one or the other? Guess what: I have to do their mission before I can reject them as a comp. It's a hamfisted way to put people in WZs to justify spending money on them, is what I think. It's not working, for me, because 123 go isn't what I consider PvP, so I won't be in there. However, since Eric pointed out in this very thread that they don't intend to gate PvE content behind PvP, they need to look at how this system really works. I don't need Pierce or 4X, but I should be able to refuse their services w/out doing their missions. That is not how the system currently works. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brewberry Posted November 12, 2015 Share Posted November 12, 2015 As I have stated before, the problem is their metrics are not transparent. That pretty much covers it in my book. Unless anyone with a level 65 character can show me a legacy with absolutely no pve achievements at all, the following statement is true: All players participating in pvp also participate in pve, but not all players participating in pve participate in pvp. Even if anyone could display such a legacy, they just proved they are not taking part in KOTFE. In which case this enitre thread is irrelevant. Furthermore Bioware are the ones imposing a system excluding a group of players. Hence it is Bioware (or anyone advocating this stance) that should justify that decission by making pvp participation statistics available. And as you stated in another post refering to a statistic from launch that has not been updated since does not represent valid numbers. Valid numbers would be based on the games lifetime, or an extract from a recent time period reflecting the current player base. Also, even with solid number of players regularly participating in pvp, exluding a group of players that will never participate in pvp from a companion is unbalanced. If this was to be equal for both groups there would have to be companions you cannot obtain if you ever participate in pvp. Or in other words some companions exclusive to those that participate in pvp, and some companions exclusive to those that never participate in pvp. Regardless, my main issue with the system Eric described is not related to having a pvp objective in place to aquire a specific companion. My main issue is the lack of an option to skip a specific alert/quest and move on to the next alert in the chain. Brewberry Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
robertthebard Posted November 12, 2015 Share Posted November 12, 2015 Enjoy not having 4X then. You say that like it's a bad thing. None of my Imp toons will ever have him. Most of them won't have Pierce either, and I'll be missing them so much. /sarcasm... I just hope there's nothing seriously important behind them on the alert list, because I'll never know. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TUXs Posted November 12, 2015 Share Posted November 12, 2015 You don't see any flaw because you enjoy PVP. When you have content that people hate so much that they're willing to complain about it at a rate of 15 posts a day... There's something clearly flawed. I don't see it as a flaw because I participate in every activity the game offers. It's YOU who refuses to do the same. What happens if I don't want to recruit one or the other? Guess what: I have to do their mission before I can reject them as a comp. Why would you do that? Just ignore it. I had the basic trooper gear quest in my log until 4.0 hit...know how I handled that? I ignored it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TUXs Posted November 12, 2015 Share Posted November 12, 2015 You say that like it's a bad thing. None of my Imp toons will ever have him. Most of them won't have Pierce either, and I'll be missing them so much. /sarcasm... I just hope there's nothing seriously important behind them on the alert list, because I'll never know. I'll let you know Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ikinai Posted November 12, 2015 Share Posted November 12, 2015 I don't see it as a flaw because I participate in every activity the game offers. It's YOU who refuses to do the same. Why would you do that? Just ignore it. I had the basic trooper gear quest in my log until 4.0 hit...know how I handled that? I ignored it. Why so combative about this? I personally don't like pvp either, I'll probably never get these or see what is beyond the initial requests either. That kind of sucks. What if there is a companion I do want behind one of these two guys? That is just piss poor design, that is what we should be asking them to change. Make it so that there are multiple ways to complete these quests, not just wall them off behind poor design decisions. You shouldn't have to ignore things in your quest log. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
robertthebard Posted November 12, 2015 Share Posted November 12, 2015 I don't see it as a flaw because I participate in every activity the game offers. It's YOU who refuses to do the same. Why would you do that? Just ignore it. I had the basic trooper gear quest in my log until 4.0 hit...know how I handled that? I ignored it. Because, whilst you're busy waiting for the referee to tell you it's time to play laser tag, I've been playing the game, and I can't unlock the next alert in that chain until that one is dealt with, and the only way to deal with it, currently, is to complete the mission. The ability to refuse their services is gated behind mission completion, instead of being available at the start. This was laid out by Eric, in this thread. So you can't progress past them until you handle their mission, which means, 20 WZs or 40 valor, and frankly, if you have 40 valor, the WZs aren't an issue, right? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Roalmo Posted November 12, 2015 Share Posted November 12, 2015 Yes, really Robert. You don't have to PvP. The M1-4X companion is optional. The content following M1-4X is gated by PvPing for 4X...so if you want to do it, suck it up and hop in the WZ's. It's a perfectly fine trade off and completely reasonable for Bioware to do imo. It's a reward for participating in part of the game...nothing more. It's incentive to play WZ's - not forced and hardly that intimidating. 1. You seem to ignore the post by the dev, or read it differently than I do. "Will I need to PvP for future Companions / Will I need to unlock Companions like Pierce to access future Companions? The answer to your question is maybe. We are open to the possibility of future PvP related Companions/Mission content which could require the completion of M1-4X/Pierce's Missions. That said, we would not likely have PvE related content require it." The highlighted weasel words, imposed from on-high probably, say simply there is a chance that these 2 companions are gateway companions to more companions who could be PVP only companions(and what the heck is that?) and/or PVE companions. So do we take a chance that they a truly optional or not? I've run on pvp servers in other games, enjoyed them, but actually play the arena style pvp with the obscene sin of allowing pre-mades to run against pugs, never again. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SkybladeDarkstar Posted November 12, 2015 Share Posted November 12, 2015 I don't see it as a flaw because I participate in every activity the game offers. It's YOU who refuses to do the same. Yep. And I was (for the most part) allowed to do so. Until this. Companions are PVE story content. They are all functionally identical, as you have pointed out oh so many times. The difference? Their personalities and conversations. So they are story content. What story content has been gated behind Galactic Starfighter? None. What about ship missions? No. Datacron collection? Hmm, still none. Planetary map completion? Er, no. PVE is the core of the game. It's what you have to do to do almost everything. You can't even get to PVP content without going through enough PVE to get off the starter world. Everything else is optional, and story content isn't tied to any of it. Until now. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Psychopyro Posted November 12, 2015 Share Posted November 12, 2015 Change PvP requirement from 20 WZ to 10 wins in which player earns 10 or more medals. Completely defeats griefing/afking tactics, but would undoubtedly upset a larger number of people. Sorry can't agree with 10 wins... That is the most stupid ever... Medal requirement maybe, but wins is too much to require. Hell some days I'll be lucky to get one win with a whole team trying... You sir fail.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TUXs Posted November 12, 2015 Share Posted November 12, 2015 Why so combative about this? I personally don't like pvp either, I'll probably never get these or see what is beyond the initial requests either. That kind of sucks. What if there is a companion I do want behind one of these two guys? That is just piss poor design, that is what we should be asking them to change. Make it so that there are multiple ways to complete these quests, not just wall them off behind poor design decisions. You shouldn't have to ignore things in your quest log. I don't mean to be, I'm sorry if I come off as such. I'm just shocked at the outrage that an optional companion is causing. M1-4X is one of the worst companions to have out too...he paths so poorly that it drives me crazy. I agree that people should be able to dismiss the quest (picking it up again by talking to a guy)...but other than that, I see it as perfectly reasonable to gate some things behind activities that Bioware wants to promote. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ikinai Posted November 12, 2015 Share Posted November 12, 2015 I don't mean to be, I'm sorry if I come off as such. I'm just shocked at the outrage that an optional companion is causing. M1-4X is one of the worst companions to have out too...he paths so poorly that it drives me crazy. I agree that people should be able to dismiss the quest (picking it up again by talking to a guy)...but other than that, I see it as perfectly reasonable to gate some things behind activities that Bioware wants to promote. Even at the detriment of the games community? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Psychopyro Posted November 12, 2015 Share Posted November 12, 2015 Why so combative about this? . He carries PvP to the forums, as most PvPers do... Hence why I end up an *** half the time... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
robertthebard Posted November 12, 2015 Share Posted November 12, 2015 I don't mean to be, I'm sorry if I come off as such. I'm just shocked at the outrage that an optional companion is causing. M1-4X is one of the worst companions to have out too...he paths so poorly that it drives me crazy. I agree that people should be able to dismiss the quest (picking it up again by talking to a guy)...but other than that, I see it as perfectly reasonable to gate some things behind activities that Bioware wants to promote. You see, my thing is: Allow me to refuse his services in the initial dialog, and progress to the next alert in the chain. I don't do WZs and I'm not going to do them for a comp, but allow me to tell 'em to take a long walk on a short pier before their mission, instead of after their mission. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TUXs Posted November 12, 2015 Share Posted November 12, 2015 Companions are PVE story content. Yeah, they truly help in Ops huh? That statement is ridiculous. Companions can make or break OWPvP. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hadoken Posted November 12, 2015 Share Posted November 12, 2015 I don't mean to be, I'm sorry if I come off as such. I'm just shocked at the outrage that an optional companion is causing. M1-4X is one of the worst companions to have out too...he paths so poorly that it drives me crazy. I agree that people should be able to dismiss the quest (picking it up again by talking to a guy)...but other than that, I see it as perfectly reasonable to gate some things behind activities that Bioware wants to promote. I'm not going to speak for you, I'll let you do that, but for me my only stake in that is the few in this thread who have expressed the desire to intentionally grief PVPers just because they can't get what they want. That's just shameful behavior and shouldn't be defended at all. Yet it constantly is. I'm all for having more options or changing the system. I agree if you really wanted Pierce on someone that can't get him and you can't stand PVP, that sucks. But then, you know what? You were never guaranteed him in the first place. If you want him that bad, play a SIth Warrior. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SkybladeDarkstar Posted November 12, 2015 Share Posted November 12, 2015 I don't mean to be, I'm sorry if I come off as such. I'm just shocked at the outrage that an optional companion is causing. M1-4X is one of the worst companions to have out too...he paths so poorly that it drives me crazy. I agree that people should be able to dismiss the quest (picking it up again by talking to a guy)...but other than that, I see it as perfectly reasonable to gate some things behind activities that Bioware wants to promote. Almost as though (shock), some people actually HATE PVP and don't want story content hidden behind it! I think that you are a nigh-perfect example of BioWare right now. "But, we only made them have to do a little PVP to get this story character. Why do they hate it so much?" BECAUSE PVP SUCKS. Also, thanks for your projection. "lol, M1-4X is one of the worst companions". Yeah, thanks. Heaven help me if I actually liked him on my Trooper and wanted him on the other characters. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Psychopyro Posted November 12, 2015 Share Posted November 12, 2015 Yeah, they truly help in Ops huh? That statement is ridiculous. Companions can make or break OWPvP. I'll just point out, most of the servers and server population are PvE... While I don't think the PvP servers should be ignored, all PvP server players get a companion that functions just as well as Fourex or Pierce... Neither of them have any extra expertise... So there is not anything breaking anything there. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TUXs Posted November 12, 2015 Share Posted November 12, 2015 Even at the detriment of the games community? You mean at the risk of upsetting people who want 4X without doing what they need to do to get him? That's mostly what the complaints are about...people want him without having to PvP. I want 224 gear without having to get it too...but that's not how it works. I think it's perfectly fine to gate game items (companions) behind certain activities. If there were a crafting companion, I'd never get him unlocked... You see, my thing is: Allow me to refuse his services in the initial dialog, and progress to the next alert in the chain. I don't do WZs and I'm not going to do them for a comp, but allow me to tell 'em to take a long walk on a short pier before their mission, instead of after their mission. Since his next alert will likely be PvP related, why? I understand your desire to dismiss it...I agree with that...but not to progress without having done the 1st part. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jadescythe Posted November 12, 2015 Share Posted November 12, 2015 I'll just point out, most of the servers and server population are PvE... While I don't think the PvP servers should be ignored, all PvP server players get a companion that functions just as well as Fourex or Pierce... Neither of them have any extra expertise... So there is not anything breaking anything there. You do realize that "PvE" encompasses like 20 different play styles right? Feel free to throw any "PvE" requirement on a companion that forces significant amounts of grouping or top tier raid content and see if all the "PvE" players stand united. People are already complaining about Qyzen just because it takes a large amount of time to complete and Lokin because you can only finish his quest at certain times. People need to start accepting that you will have to play different apects of this game if you want to be an Alliance completionist. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SkybladeDarkstar Posted November 12, 2015 Share Posted November 12, 2015 Yeah, they truly help in Ops huh? That statement is ridiculous. Companions can make or break OWPvP. No, A companion can make or break OWPvP. Once you have one, there is no further PvP value to be gained. The various companions are ONLY separated by their story content. Their personalities, discussions, and stories. That's it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts