When sages/sorcs get nerfed.

[jenlen]

The balance one is a confusing issue! It can make a few million of dmg in a WZ without killing anyone : P

 

Yeah I see several on here whining about Dot Spread like it is some huge powerful force of doom that slays thousands and leaves your entire team dead on the ground from 1 Sorc doing it. And yet, in pretty much all cases if I do that it does some small damage to a few players, who are more often than not quickly healed back up to full by their team's healers. Playing Madness I see a lot of damage points but few kills, honestly.

 

So, um, yes, Dot Spread, the most Dangerous Thing in SWTOR!

[Fellow-Canadian]

Nerfing sorcs/sages will not suddenly make mandos/mercs or scoundrels/ops more viable classes, sc/op will still be strong with a tank but lack the tools to deal with unmitigated burst and mando/merc will still suffer from the a lackluster toolkit.

 

For the other two healers to truly become viable we need a huge shift in the meta or adjustments to the specs to help them better deal with the current meta.

 

Well, I will disagree on this. The reason I think ops and commandos are irrelevant in PVP is because whatever they can do, a sage can do it better. Part of that problem is the other classes, especially commandos, need some balancing of their own. The biggest offender though is sages are just too damn good for PVP.

[alexsamma]

Well, I will disagree on this. The reason I think ops and commandos are irrelevant in PVP is because whatever they can do, a sage can do it better. Part of that problem is the other classes, especially commandos, need some balancing of their own. The biggest offender though is sages are just too damn good for PVP.

 

Do you play all three healing classes?

 

Operatives are close to equal with sorcs if they have a guard, and they would be equal or better if the meta was dot/sustained instead of burst/sustained.

 

Mandos/mercs simply lack the tools to deal with the damage output in the game (given equally skilled teams on both sides), their toolkit is simply not enough.

 

Nerfing sorcs will result in everyone taking operatives and simply dealing with their short-comings, all it does is change the meta healer from sorc to op, and it will make regs a **** show because operatives have poor tools for dealing with un-mitigated burst but are easy mode with a tank who guard swaps.

 

Why people want their healers to have **** mobility and low burst healing in a dps environment with extremely high mobility and a combination of both high burst and very strong sustained is beyond me.

[foxmob]

Operatives are close to equal with sorcs if they have a guard, and they would be equal or better if the meta was dot/sustained instead of burst/sustained.

 

I don't know this to be true, but I'll take it at face value. the most popular format of competitive pvp in the game often pops w/o a tank. so... yeah. all sorcs (since 3.0) have been at a significant advantage because of their solo survivability. adding a tank has always made things more "balanced." I mean...balance is supposed to be based on trinity comps, so that makes sense.

 

add that to the fact that regs are a crapshoot and you often don't have a tank (unless you bring one with you!) and cooperation in regs is very low, so solo survivability (and grp healing!) are a significant advantage.

 

I realize that both of the scenarios I mentioned are bastardizations of the balancing schema (trinity), but that's kind of my point: balance is predicated on a composition that doesn't exist 70% of the time.

 

edit:

Nerfing sorcs will result in everyone taking operatives and simply dealing with their short-comings, all it does is change the meta healer from sorc to op, and it will make regs a **** show because operatives have poor tools for dealing with un-mitigated burst but are easy mode with a tank who guard swaps..

agree here. but I would rather see ops homogenized and the more traditional stationary casters who you beat with interrupts and separation from tanks than having the healers themselves be mobile. my rationale is this: mobility makes the healers self-sufficient. balance in this game is supposed to be predicated on the use of tanks. so either get rid of tanks and make all healers self-sufficient in a significant way or make them all hard cast their stuff and deal with interrupts and difficulties surviving w/o a tank.

Edited December 16, 2015 by foxmob

[Fellow-Canadian]

Do you play all three healing classes?

 

Operatives are close to equal with sorcs if they have a guard, and they would be equal or better if the meta was dot/sustained instead of burst/sustained.

 

Mandos/mercs simply lack the tools to deal with the damage output in the game (given equally skilled teams on both sides), their toolkit is simply not enough.

 

Nerfing sorcs will result in everyone taking operatives and simply dealing with their short-comings, all it does is change the meta healer from sorc to op, and it will make regs a **** show because operatives have poor tools for dealing with un-mitigated burst but are easy mode with a tank who guard swaps.

 

Why people want their healers to have **** mobility and low burst healing in a dps environment with extremely high mobility and a combination of both high burst and very strong sustained is beyond me.

 

It doesn't matter if you are healing through burst or dot/sustained because a sage is better at healing through both in PVP. An operative will not be able to maintain the same level of healing a sage can under pressure. A commando is not even worth mentioning in the conversation because they are not at all balanced to function competitively in PVP.

 

You need to accept that the balance in this game is terrible and sage healers are too strong. Their survival abilities are superior, their HPS is higher, their mobility is superior, their resource management is superior, their base toolkit is superior, their utility is superior, and their vulnerability to interrupts is almost nill.

[ThorgrimLutgen]

It doesn't matter if you are healing through burst or dot/sustained because a sage is better at healing through both in PVP. An operative will not be able to maintain the same level of healing a sage can under pressure. A commando is not even worth mentioning in the conversation because they are not at all balanced to function competitively in PVP.

 

You need to accept that the balance in this game is terrible and sage healers are too strong. Their survival abilities are superior, their HPS is higher, their mobility is superior, their resource management is superior, their base toolkit is superior, their utility is superior, and their vulnerability to interrupts is almost nill.

 

Whilst this game still clings onto the vestiges of it being an MMO, we are never going to get perfect balance, we are not playing a FPS.

 

This time last year, Sawbones and Medicine Ops ruled the roost, it will change again.

 

A MMO as a core concept is not meant to have all classes the same, we are meant to be different, some better at different things than others etc etc.

 

I will let you into a secret, I have all 16 ACs at 65 in pvp gear, and the toons I play the most, are the ones that are deemed to be the worst. Why? Because currently PVP has never been easier than it is today. I truly do not understand all the whining about this and that class. It is more fun playing a "sub par" class in order to actually offer some challenge.

 

Whilst it is very clear that we do need tweeks here and there for some classes, we need to get this balance means everything crap out of our minds, as we are not meant to be perfectly balanced in the first place, it is a fundamental of MMO play that we rely on team work and play as balanced teams.

 

The main issue we face currently are the masses of utterly useless players infesting our warzones, who's only interest is to see big numbers.

Edited December 16, 2015 by ThorgrimLutgen

[Csillagkari]

It doesn't matter if you are healing through burst or dot/sustained because a sage is better at healing through both in PVP. An operative will not be able to maintain the same level of healing a sage can under pressure. A commando is not even worth mentioning in the conversation because they are not at all balanced to function competitively in PVP.

 

You need to accept that the balance in this game is terrible and sage healers are too strong. Their survival abilities are superior, their HPS is higher, their mobility is superior, their resource management is superior, their base toolkit is superior, their utility is superior, and their vulnerability to interrupts is almost nill.

 

The force whisper me something true this post and the key word was " their" Let me guess, you don't play Sage/Sorc healer.

 

So how well it can support the team under pressure? Very badly! When I'm under pressure with my Sage healer (and pressure here I mean 1-2 guys focus on me, not the whole team, coz 1-2 is enough to burn down my bubble in 2 sec and when bubble is gone my HP drops like a stone)

- I can drop Wandering mend, true it's not bad

- I can drop insta Salvation after I reached 3 stack of Resplendence by reaching 3 Healing trance critical hit but salvation alone helps close to nothing to my team mates

- And I struggle like a pig on the ice to reach the end of Force inbalance duration, so I can use bubble again (seems low duration on paper, but when you under pressure, it really feels like eternity) When Bubble is up again, I have the luxury to land a rejuvenate with a healing trance to the most damaged team member.

And that's all I can do for the team once I was focused 1-2 guys!

Some will say "but the bastion" Yea, but the bastion actually dismiss you from the map lol You can do nothing till it's up. "But the Phase Walk" Nice trick but how it helps to a team when the healer disappear in the middle of the fight, behind a wall. Honestly, the last few random 4v4 where I was like: "what the heck it's already 4v3? How our Sage died this fast?" then we all die.... 2 minutes later the Sage walks out from behind a hidden object in the other side of the map "hello!"

 

I don't wanna lobby for Sage vs Scoundrel, but let's be honest, Trick move is 100× better than Phase Walk! Of course you can totally disappear by phase walk, but from your team as well, till Trick move is a kind of " hey I'm here, take this guys down who is sticky backing me please" if you use it on a friendly target. And the double Scamper? Hah, how many times I was wondering if Sage would have double force speed But no.. it don't has. And if I would miss the totally disappear trick like phase walk, then I just pop up Disappearing act! And the single target force stun vs the flash grenade? hah what an advantage! And you still have dirty kick a 4 sec single target stun that has very low cool-down?

So you still sure that the Sage healer's "toolkit is superior"? : )

 

Bu once more, I really don't wanna lobby for scoundrel nerf, all I wanna say, that who call for Sage healer nerf don't plays Sage healer! He has no clue how different heal roles works it's 100% If Sage healer would get a nerf, not many would play with it. By the way, what nerf ppl imagine when they call for one? "let me kill him 1v1 in no time!" ? lol or what?

 

Commando healer should be a bit more tanky! Scoundrel, Sage should live up by using their tricks, but commando don't wanna leave the combat field by porting our right? : ) He wanna stay in the middle and support. It really should be a kind of tank /healer mix (never will happen coz this game is about pve balance all role has a duty and JUST that AKA tank get in position, healer get in position same as dps roles and they start to loop the same rotation for 5 minutes! If something goes super tricky than they have to stand in to a big red circle for 3 sec lol)

 

Long story about the healers, but what about Sage dps? Not that tanky like some melee ones.. not that bursty like some close ranged onse... but it's a long ranged right? The long range is the benefit! But I tell you something, there is one long range dps in this game: gunslinger - because he can not be pulled, and no one can jump on him from a distance when he is behind that cover. Others have the benefit of being ranged until someone focus on them and close the gap with one button.

 

Also, my personal opinion is still: Go Sage Balance if you have medal and dmg point fetish and you are absolutely not interested about objectives, but you wanna spread dots and focus on it all over the mach - for that it's the superior discipline! And go Sage Telekinetics if you care about RPG till playing WZ. You don't believe me? make a dps challenge (duel) with a gunslinger(any discipline) or a commando gunnery in the same lvl of gear as you have! Try to duel a guardian (actually any discipline) or scoundrel scrapper as TK Sage.

You will have to realize, that it's pure RPG lol Since as soon as anyone pick you up from the team and jump on you, all you can do is run to the direction of your healer and pray that he will help you. Like a kind of force sniper it's not bad, until no one focus on you, but then why not playing gunslinger? : ) That's why I say, it's good if you wanna, RPG the mighty force user Jedi : ) It also have very good animations : P

 

And if you say, that its a ********, then pop up your swtor client, take a blink on your Sage/Sorc character and think about it a bit that how often you use it in WZ beside making the daily quests to post the commendations to your main character.

Edited December 16, 2015 by Csillagkari

[Csillagkari]

Whilst this game still clings onto the vestiges of it being an MMO, we are never going to get perfect balance, we are not playing a FPS.

 

This time last year, Sawbones and Medicine Ops ruled the roost, it will change again.

 

A MMO as a core concept is not meant to have all classes the same, we are meant to be different, some better at different things than others etc etc.

 

I will let you into a secret, I have all 16 ACs at 65 in pvp gear, and the toons I play the most, are the ones that are deemed to be the worst. Why? Because currently PVP has never been easier than it is today. I truly do not understand all the whining about this and that class. It is more fun playing a "sub par" class in order to actually offer some challenge.

 

Whilst it is very clear that we do need tweeks here and there for some classes, we need to get this balance means everything crap out of our minds, as we are not meant to be perfectly balanced in the first place, it is a fundamental of MMO play that we rely on team work and play as balanced teams.

 

The main issue we face currently are the masses of utterly useless players infesting our warzones, who's only interest is to see big numbers.

 

Very good one! Every line!

 

I would add, that fps games did not have balance as well. I play fps games for quite long and they have to smuggle some imbalance to handle frustration : ) If a pvp player can't find an excuse, then he will uninstal sooner or later but will : )

That's why the new discipline system is the biggest fail that could happened to the game's pvp content! IMO it's a big fail due to pve as well, because just think about it, you don't have to find The good tank for an OPaka the guy who knows how to build up his character, but you simply need just a tank.. and if a dog is playing with that AC at that moment it still will do the job perfectly.

So I just mentioned that if pvp players can't find any excuse due to their lose then they uninstal, I also can mentioning a fact that gamers, players generally will uninstal if they don't have ingame goals and can't reach any kind of self-justification due to their build.

What disciplines are? The worst bob track that a player can imagine! Gearing? Same! Just take a look, what are the QQ posts about? "My favorite class have to be buffed, and other classes have to be nerfed asap" lol the worst nightmare of the pvp content! Where we can find a thread here what is about " that player is very skilled" or "I still need to improve my skills" or " that player found out an extremely epic build!" or " my build have to be improved" or "my gear still needs improvement" - yes the gearing decision is a kind of illusion as well sadly : / You use power? same.. You use crit? The result is the same.. Alacrity? You will arrive to the same place. And you know what is funny, yesterday I made an experiment, I queued with my lvl 65 character in the worst gear that I found in my bank, just to take a look how it works. The gear was 94 green one for lvl 34 character lol The result? The same as in my full 208 pvp gear : P I did the most dps and I felt that I had the same defense as in my 208 pvp gear (not if it's matter in my eye, but this time it was an experiment)

 

It's a joke guys not pvp challenge!

 

We need a complex free skill system for pvp! I would say generally for the game! This WoW clone bob track is the past! And specially for pvp it is terrible.

[Ganthen]

Where are these 3.5 and 2k hps numbers coming from? I almost always heal at least 4k HPS (at the END) of a WZ, unless against lolbadds who did no damage whatsoever.

 

Again, I can only see from my own personal experience, but, from what I have seen, anywhere from 1.7k hps to about 3.6k hps is common. I have seen a couple of 5k hps, but have yet to see the 6k, 7k, and 8k hps that people are saying they have seen. Not going to say it's not possible, but, I am going to say that I don't think it's common, at least not in normal WZ's. I'm not above admitting that I was wrong, but until I see it happen frequently in WZ's, I just dont consider it common.

 

the 2k and 3.5k hps is what I experience and witness on a day to day basis in pvp. Every now and then i see some 4k hps, but have only seen about 3 or 4 5k hps.

[Ganthen]

Uhh, except you get two bounces on mend.

 

I stand corrected, you are right. mend actually gets 4 bounces and it can crit, from what I have personally experienced, for roughly 13k on a couple of those bounces. Roaming mend is on a what, 45 second cooldown? So yes, I wasn't thinking about that, but again, this is something that only has a chance of happening every 45 seconds or so.

[Ganthen]

As bleak as you make it all sound, consider that a sorc healer will perform better under bad circumstances more significantly than an ops or commando healer could. Sorc healers have made those classes irrelevant for PVP.

 

I see your point, but then this becomes a sorc vs other healer discussion rather than a sorc vs all other classes discussion. If there is a disparity between sorc healers and the other healers, then by nerfing sorc healer, it's not going to make the other healers more viable. So, perhaps the other healers need a little tweaking to bring them up into the same capacity as sorc healers.

 

On that note, I guess I can see where this would lead. By making every healing class perform equally as well as a sorc healer, it could create an issue in WZ's where there would be too much healing. Again, i'm not against balance, and in the end, want to see everything work as it should. If sorc healers need to be toned down, then by all means, it should happen.

 

My fear is that if you weaken healing too much, then it is going to be open season on anyone playing a healer class. We are already the first target on everyone's list. If you weaken their abilities, it goes from being "there's a healer, we need to kill him so he can't keep his team up" to "theres a healer, he's an easy target, lets kill him first".

 

So, if a nerf is needed, all I ask is that along with the reduction in healing power, we get a self survival increase to keep us from spending our time at the spawn point.

[ThorgrimLutgen]

I see your point, but then this becomes a sorc vs other healer discussion rather than a sorc vs all other classes discussion. If there is a disparity between sorc healers and the other healers, then by nerfing sorc healer, it's not going to make the other healers more viable. So, perhaps the other healers need a little tweaking to bring them up into the same capacity as sorc healers.

 

On that note, I guess I can see where this would lead. By making every healing class perform equally as well as a sorc healer, it could create an issue in WZ's where there would be too much healing. Again, i'm not against balance, and in the end, want to see everything work as it should. If sorc healers need to be toned down, then by all means, it should happen.

 

My fear is that if you weaken healing too much, then it is going to be open season on anyone playing a healer class. We are already the first target on everyone's list. If you weaken their abilities, it goes from being "there's a healer, we need to kill him so he can't keep his team up" to "theres a healer, he's an easy target, lets kill him first".

 

So, if a nerf is needed, all I ask is that along with the reduction in healing power, we get a self survival increase to keep us from spending our time at the spawn point.

 

Indeed. My personal view has always been this, and I wish they would make it so.

 

Sage should be the main battlefield healer. Dishes out the most burst healing second to none, but, requires teamwork around to be properly efficient. Should be squishy, should die easily when focused properly, and indeed, they currently do die easily when it is done right. Good players on dps toons, make mincemeat of Sages, the main problem we have, being that most new players and derpers in general gravitate to playing dps, very often their only toons and sulk and whine when they realise they suck, and of course, as you commented on, blame something else, other than themselves. Most of them have no concept that you don't actually have to kill the Sage, to make them ineffective.

 

Sawbones should be a support healer almost, mainly HoTs. Able to turn their hand to more things, for example, off to do some capping etc if playing regs.

 

I see Merc also as a battlefield medic, should have strong burst heals, but not as effective as Sage, but with significantly more survivability, should not have to rely as much on team to stay up.

 

Of course, what currently have is nothing like what I would like to see. But the point remains, all the heal classes should be different and fulfil different roles within the fight.

Edited December 16, 2015 by ThorgrimLutgen

[foxmob]

Indeed. My personal view has always been this, and I wish they would make it so.

 

Sage should be the main battlefield healer. Dishes out the most burst healing second to none, but, requires teamwork around to be properly efficient. Should be squishy, should die easily when focused properly, and indeed, they currently do die easily when it is done right.

 

Sawbones should be a support healer almost, mainly HoTs. Able to turn their hand to more things, for example, off to do some capping etc if playing regs.

 

I see Merc also as a battlefield medic, should have strong burst heals, but not as effective as Sage, but with significantly more survivability, should not have to rely as much on team to stay up.

 

Of course, what currently have is nothing like what I would like to see. But the point remains, all the heal classes should be different and fulfil different roles within the fight.

pretty sure -- at least in their inception -- that merc was single target burst and sage was weaker single target but the big aoe healer. hots and mobility went to ops.

 

the funny thing is the ops were able to raid heal with their hots and their mobility and relative immunity to interrupts. so that kind of took the place of an aoe healer and a burst healer.

 

meanwhile, the burst healing of a sage wasn't significantly weaker than that of a mando, but his aoe healing was significantly better than the mando.

 

as much as I hate to say it, the best healer balance we've had in arenas is probably 3.0 where ops weren't necessarily better than sages. it just depended on what type of comp you went against. the army of dot inquisitors was best countered with ops, and the sniper/PT burst comps were best dealt with by sages. of course, mandos were the odd man out either way. nothing new there. luls

 

I do think you were right in an earlier post about MMOs and balance. the real issue isn't that there's imbalance between classes. the problem is that there aren't frequent enough balancing patches to rotate what's FotM or Year or Decade. I also think a lot of these headaches would be resolved by implementing more intuitive matchmaking algorithms for ALL formats, but that would increase queue times, and even the hint of that sends BW running in the opposite direction. so at the end of the day, if they aren't going to balance often or implement more intuitive matchmaking, the next best fix is homogenization. sorry for those opposed. but really, isn't that what we're getting by default with everyone running to sorcs and PTs?

[TehMadHatterz]

I've mained a Sorc since launch (DPS/DoT) I really can't even tell if these posts are just trolling anymore lol.

 

Healing = Over tuned, needs some tweaking.

 

DPS = Fine, if anything slightly under powered when compared to other "burst" spec classes. But it could quickly become TOO strong given the nature of Thundering Blast cooldown and auto crit on Affliction.

 

DoT = Fine, it's a Damage Over Time build. Placement in the end of match report does not show what is overpowered and what isn't. It simply shows that the person knows how to use Spread mechanics to maximize dps. . . and more often than not they did NOTHING but throw dots and spam force lightning.

 

A lot of people play the class, sure -- although on my server, in any given match Sorc population is easily eclipsed by Juggernaut, Marauder and Assassins -- but you can't nerf a class because a lot of people play it.

 

Want to completely counter the oh so godly Sorcs? Assign a burst class to harass them the whole fight. Game over. I know when I roll my Arsenal Merc (given the population of the aforementioned classes in our pvp queues) I LOVE seeing Sorcs on the OpFor. At least I know I can get a kill in before the glowbats all leap on top of me -- if Force Barrier is down, or I have EN up, that is.

[Miggzy]

as much as I hate to say it, the best healer balance we've had in arenas is probably 3.0 where ops weren't necessarily better than sages. it just depended on what type of comp you went against. the army of dot inquisitors was best countered with ops, and the sniper/PT burst comps were best dealt with by sages. of course, mandos were the odd man out either way. nothing new there. luls

 

3.0 is when sorcs got buffed and ended the reign of operative healers in ranked and regs. Operatives did well against dot comps but the real counter to dot comps was burst dps anyway. Also sorcs were stronger in 3.0.

 

Operatives are right now and have been for a long time the king of wz's. Sorcs are harder to kill but in terms of raw hps, operatives surpass sorcs and thats whats uncoordinated regular wz's are all about. This is hard to see because sorcs newly found viability in 3.0 energized the most fun healing class in the game, causing a mass re roll from the top down and with such a small amount of hardcore pvpers still playing their operatives, you just dont see that class dominate like its able too. On a side note I think that giving op's a 30-45 second vanish would solve its problems. Assuming its still like 2 mins.

 

This game has been on life support for a long time and this is the reason why mercs are still trash when they should be great in ranked, and why sorcs were given a dumb ability like phase walk. This wont change and is only gonna get worse so I would recommend accepting that Operatives belong in wz's, mercs suck, and sorcs belong in ranked. Hots for regs. Burst for ranked.

Edited December 16, 2015 by Miggzy

[helpmewin]

Untill Musco play sage = never. Wait when he roll another class.

[alexsamma]

I stand corrected, you are right. mend actually gets 4 bounces and it can crit, from what I have personally experienced, for roughly 13k on a couple of those bounces. Roaming mend is on a what, 45 second cooldown? So yes, I wasn't thinking about that, but again, this is something that only has a chance of happening every 45 seconds or so.

 

Roaming mend is on a 15 second cd (minus alacrity).

[lukewarcriminal]

im starting to doubt they ever going to nerf them, how about some class limits like max of 2 sorc per team per game but srsly devs move your butts

[Technohic]

im starting to doubt they ever going to nerf them, how about some class limits like max of 2 sorc per team per game but srsly devs move your butts

 

Well, how are they doing in PVE?

[digitalyn]

I see your point, but then this becomes a sorc vs other healer discussion rather than a sorc vs all other classes discussion. If there is a disparity between sorc healers and the other healers, then by nerfing sorc healer, it's not going to make the other healers more viable. So, perhaps the other healers need a little tweaking to bring them up into the same capacity as sorc healers.

 

That should always be a healer discussion or do you face something other healer don't?

 

You are clearly misunderstanding something: operative healer don't complain about not being viable. Of course we would like a little more single target burst as it's a real a problem in pvp. But we are fine, just fine, thank you.

 

We have our strength and weakness, as intended. And if I wouldn't trade any of my defensive/mobility and Hoolycrap skills for yours, speaking about pure healing: there is no way we can perform has much as you do.

And if we could, i think there would be so much complain, i would finaly agree with people saying "Healers kills pvp" when it just seems to be one class.

 

I've spend a month pvping as an operative healer going from 0 to 60 valor (dunno how many match it represents) geared in 208 fully augmented set till beginning, and what i see in score board usually is:

 

2M+/3.5M for sorcerer/sage

1M+/2.5M for the 2 other healing class (not only me!)

 

The only time i see 4M+ from sorcerer, i'm close to 3M myself, and it's mostly due to never-ending warzone.

I know i'm not at the top of the learning curve, but again, it's not just me.

 

What can justify a 30 to 50% difference in total healing?

This should be really frustrating for those who those who consider leaderboard as an efficiency summary. Hopefully i don't (Honestly: sometimes, it still take it into account).

sometimes i've tested it: sticking the sorcerer that stick the pack (even if it have nothing to do with objectives most of the time) and ginving all i can. Then comes the leaderboard and ...meh :/

 

Being a healbot is hopefully not my goal, i have turn many match capping or delaying ennemy's cap, so i guess i'll stick to the way i feel my class: i'm a Swiss Knife with nice healing overtime abilities.

 

I don't know but doubt your heal strengh is the only thing, maybe it's a combiantion of: being albe to stay in fight longer than we do, have more instant, more crit proc, easy energy management ...or the fact that there is a lot of brainless lolilolhealers that stay middle healing loliloldps facing lolliolol ennemies?

 

Whatever it is, it's close to be a general agreement of all pvper: it's about time to bring balance in the force.

 

See you!

Edited December 16, 2015 by digitalyn

[Fellow-Canadian]

You describe some of the best PVP skills in the game as being a handicap for the class, and that makes no sense to me. As someone who has played all 3 classes I can tell you the potential you bring is unparalleled as a sage.

 

So how well it can support the team under pressure? Very badly! When I'm under pressure with my Sage healer (and pressure here I mean 1-2 guys focus on me, not the whole team, coz 1-2 is enough to burn down my bubble in 2 sec and when bubble is gone my HP drops like a stone)

 

The odds for anybody 1 versus 2 is not good. You're not immortal, and you will eventually burn your cooldowns and die. Playing a sage you will just live longer than everybody else because you have more cooldowns.

 

- I can drop Wandering mend, true it's not bad

- I can drop insta Salvation after I reached 3 stack of Resplendence by reaching 3 Healing trance critical hit but salvation alone helps close to nothing to my team mates

- And I struggle like a pig on the ice to reach the end of Force inbalance duration, so I can use bubble again (seems low duration on paper, but when you under pressure, it really feels like eternity) When Bubble is up again, I have the luxury to land a rejuvenate with a healing trance to the most damaged team member.

And that's all I can do for the team once I was focused 1-2 guys!

 

The main theme of sage healing is about instant casts. These instants casts make both AOE and single target heals invulnerable to any interrupts. The setup to chain the abilities is entirely done on the move. Not to mention, force mend is instant cast too and off the GCD to boot. The instant cast bubble is simply amazing, the debuff is there to make sure it's got some show of balance. This one ability combined with the bubble heal utility is a ridiculous heal to win button.

 

Wandering mend isn't bad you say? I guess you could say an instant cast nuke smart AOE heal is not the worst.

 

In a 1vs2 situation you rotate your control and cc cooldowns between heals to survive. If you are unable to ditch your attackers or you gain no help from others, then I would expect against competent players you will die.

 

Some will say "but the bastion" Yea, but the bastion actually dismiss you from the map lol You can do nothing till it's up. "But the Phase Walk" Nice trick but how it helps to a team when the healer disappear in the middle of the fight, behind a wall. Honestly, the last few random 4v4 where I was like: "what the heck it's already 4v3? How our Sage died this fast?" then we all die.... 2 minutes later the Sage walks out from behind a hidden object in the other side of the map "hello!"

 

Phase walk was not needed for sages at all. Their escape was god bubble but Bioware gave them this too in a totally misguided class change. This gives sage healers a 2nd get out of jail free card that can also be used while cc'd AND while in god bubble too. The breaking of line of sight is a huge advantage. The ability to teleport through walls makes this ability an amazing escape ability. This is not a handicap!

 

God bubble is amazing. I disagree comprehensively that it's a self stun, you can end it anytime you need to. It makes you immune to everything for as long as you chose to be. It's a cooldown that can reset a fight entirely if used correctly and it can also be used while cc'd. With the bubble heal utility, it makes Bioware happy to see sages heal to full and make them pay! You can use it as a 2nd cc breaker to survive situations no other healer could. I have to say a commando would happily swap their problems for a sage here.

 

I don't wanna lobby for Sage vs Scoundrel, but let's be honest, Trick move is 100× better than Phase Walk! Of course you can totally disappear by phase walk, but from your team as well, till Trick move is a kind of " hey I'm here, take this guys down who is sticky backing me please" if you use it on a friendly target. And the double Scamper? Hah, how many times I was wondering if Sage would have double force speed But no.. it don't has. And if I would miss the totally disappear trick like phase walk, then I just pop up Disappearing act! And the single target force stun vs the flash grenade? hah what an advantage! And you still have dirty kick a 4 sec single target stun that has very low cool-down?

So you still sure that the Sage healer's "toolkit is superior"? : )

 

Scoundrel mobility is great, and it needs to be. Their defensive cooldowns are pretty bad, but their toolkit makes them a little more competitive in PVP. I always found the class caveat was the really high skill cap. In the right hands they can achieve great things, but with a sage you can just faceroll to win. Anybody that can play a scoundrel at the highest levels will do even better if they played a sage instead.

 

The rest of your post I will not bother addressing as you simply attack my character and ignore any presented arguments. I don't find ad hominem attacks productive nor a compelling reason to dismiss class balance changes.

Edited December 16, 2015 by Fellow-Canadian

[CannotDeny]

The force whisper me something true this post and the key word was " their" Let me guess, you don't play Sage/Sorc healer.

 

So how well it can support the team under pressure? Very badly! When I'm under pressure with my Sage healer (and pressure here I mean 1-2 guys focus on me, not the whole team, coz 1-2 is enough to burn down my bubble in 2 sec and when bubble is gone my HP drops like a stone)

- I can drop Wandering mend, true it's not bad

- I can drop insta Salvation after I reached 3 stack of Resplendence by reaching 3 Healing trance critical hit but salvation alone helps close to nothing to my team mates

- And I struggle like a pig on the ice to reach the end of Force inbalance duration, so I can use bubble again (seems low duration on paper, but when you under pressure, it really feels like eternity) When Bubble is up again, I have the luxury to land a rejuvenate with a healing trance to the most damaged team member.

And that's all I can do for the team once I was focused 1-2 guys!

Some will say "but the bastion" Yea, but the bastion actually dismiss you from the map lol You can do nothing till it's up. "But the Phase Walk" Nice trick but how it helps to a team when the healer disappear in the middle of the fight, behind a wall. Honestly, the last few random 4v4 where I was like: "what the heck it's already 4v3? How our Sage died this fast?" then we all die.... 2 minutes later the Sage walks out from behind a hidden object in the other side of the map "hello!"

 

I don't wanna lobby for Sage vs Scoundrel, but let's be honest, Trick move is 100× better than Phase Walk! Of course you can totally disappear by phase walk, but from your team as well, till Trick move is a kind of " hey I'm here, take this guys down who is sticky backing me please" if you use it on a friendly target. And the double Scamper? Hah, how many times I was wondering if Sage would have double force speed But no.. it don't has. And if I would miss the totally disappear trick like phase walk, then I just pop up Disappearing act! And the single target force stun vs the flash grenade? hah what an advantage! And you still have dirty kick a 4 sec single target stun that has very low cool-down?

So you still sure that the Sage healer's "toolkit is superior"? : )

 

Bu once more, I really don't wanna lobby for scoundrel nerf, all I wanna say, that who call for Sage healer nerf don't plays Sage healer! He has no clue how different heal roles works it's 100% If Sage healer would get a nerf, not many would play with it. By the way, what nerf ppl imagine when they call for one? "let me kill him 1v1 in no time!" ? lol or what?

 

Commando healer should be a bit more tanky! Scoundrel, Sage should live up by using their tricks, but commando don't wanna leave the combat field by porting our right? : ) He wanna stay in the middle and support. It really should be a kind of tank /healer mix (never will happen coz this game is about pve balance all role has a duty and JUST that AKA tank get in position, healer get in position same as dps roles and they start to loop the same rotation for 5 minutes! If something goes super tricky than they have to stand in to a big red circle for 3 sec lol)

 

Long story about the healers, but what about Sage dps? Not that tanky like some melee ones.. not that bursty like some close ranged onse... but it's a long ranged right? The long range is the benefit! But I tell you something, there is one long range dps in this game: gunslinger - because he can not be pulled, and no one can jump on him from a distance when he is behind that cover. Others have the benefit of being ranged until someone focus on them and close the gap with one button.

 

Also, my personal opinion is still: Go Sage Balance if you have medal and dmg point fetish and you are absolutely not interested about objectives, but you wanna spread dots and focus on it all over the mach - for that it's the superior discipline! And go Sage Telekinetics if you care about RPG till playing WZ. You don't believe me? make a dps challenge (duel) with a gunslinger(any discipline) or a commando gunnery in the same lvl of gear as you have! Try to duel a guardian (actually any discipline) or scoundrel scrapper as TK Sage.

You will have to realize, that it's pure RPG lol Since as soon as anyone pick you up from the team and jump on you, all you can do is run to the direction of your healer and pray that he will help you. Like a kind of force sniper it's not bad, until no one focus on you, but then why not playing gunslinger? : ) That's why I say, it's good if you wanna, RPG the mighty force user Jedi : ) It also have very good animations : P

 

And if you say, that its a ********, then pop up your swtor client, take a blink on your Sage/Sorc character and think about it a bit that how often you use it in WZ beside making the daily quests to post the commendations to your main character.

 

I don't buy your garbage simply because I've just left about 15 minutes ago a Hypergate Warzone in which this happened:

A single healer Sage + Knight tank stopped us, a team of 6 people, from capping our pylon. They did not die. Period. Granted they were good players, tank throwing out taunts and the Sage healer being a sage healer that never dies and has retarded mobility+hps/burst heals.

 

But really, a team of 6 (Even if they were random) couldn't kill two people.

 

That's absolutely retarded and I never leave matches very often, but enough is enough. I'm just so tired of it all. PvP is the only thing I enjoy except when I run across a stupid guarded sage.

 

And believe me there were a lot of interrupts and I pushed him as far from the tank as I could. Ravage refused to root him so he just walked away.

Edited December 16, 2015 by CannotDeny

[foxmob]

3.0 is when sorcs got buffed and ended the reign of operative healers in ranked and regs. Operatives did well against dot comps but the real counter to dot comps was burst dps anyway. Also sorcs were stronger in 3.0..

 

depending on the comp you were up against, an op or a sorc was the optimal healer. I don't think we've ever seen that before or since in arenas. it's always been a clear one or the other. but in solo arenas, sorc all the way cuz...best healer w/o tank running away.

[tempMentive]

:

A single healer Sage + Knight tank stopped us, a team of 6 people, from capping our pylon.

 

You were probably playing against me. I love being OP.

Edited December 16, 2015 by tempMentive

[CannotDeny]

You were probably playing against me. I love being OP.

 

Azzriel? Please stop, I don't like it when you don't die kk?