Would you PvP if Expertise was removed?

[Maraxuss]

There should be NO PROGRESSION in PVP IMO, other than rank. PVP should have very small boosts that you earn with rank, and you lose with death. The vast majority of rewards should either be useful in the rest of the game or visual IMO.

 

That means, IMO, gear should make no difference. Everyone should have the same stats across the board.

 

The reward from PVP should be the destruction of your enemies.

 

The reward from PvE should be beating the big bad robot and saving the galaxy. Fair enough?

[DomiSotto]

No, because then I would have to do HM Ops to gear up and be competitive. It's a game where a character's power is a cumulative of a build and gear set-up. It's what I am used to. If gearing is dumbed down to 'everyone has the same stats' the ACs with the biggest burst and off-heals would be the only viable ones. Edited November 2, 2015 by DomiSotto

[LordArtemis]

No, because then I would have to do HM Ops to gear up and be competitive.

 

Well, in my scenario you could PVP naked if you wanted to. Gear would be pointless.

 

Everyone has vanilla stats. You dont even START the fight with your character....you have to EARN the unlock to UNLEASH your character on the battlefield.

 

But if you mean competitive in the rest of the game...I digress.

Edited November 2, 2015 by LordArtemis

[imissleeches]

Yes! In fact, I would go one step further and make ALL gear irrelevant to PvP.

 

It should be about situational awareness, teamplay and skill at ALL levels of play, not only organised PvP guilds. If they made it so PvP zones disregard stats from gear and apply Bolster only, PvP would become more accessible to people who predominantly PvE. And it would make the forced PvP to acquire Pierce less of a traumatic experience for those who had never touched warzones prior to level 65.

[AlienEyeTX]

Ok, the best PVP system, in my biased and unqualified opinion would be set up as follows....think Battlefront.

 

You have a toon that is separate from your current toon. It is a generic soldier. You also have a temporary ability bar and you are stripped of ALL of your gear and bonuses.

 

You play, you kill, you gain in rank. Every death costs you a portion of rank, every kill increases your rank more substantially than losses.

 

At some point you do so well you gain the ability to actually unlock your toon as a "god mode", with all the abilities present....no gear boosts mind you, just the abilities. Think the "jedi mode" in Battlefront.

 

This would make playing with your characters special because they would be treated as the "gods" on the battlefield. Once your character dies, you go back to the generic toon and have to build up your victories again to unlock it once more.

 

The rewards are overall rank, naturally...which changes based on individual kills and deaths, along with victories overall, and that rank sets you closer to the character unlock. The top ten players would always start with their characters on the field.

 

The rewards would be special cosmetic gear that would NEVER be available to other players, and other sets of cosmetics (including gear) that would be locked out from PVE player use for a set period of time.

 

Also, the top ten players on each server would gain a special rank and icon displayed for all in the game to see. Something like "GENERAL so and so" or "JEDI MASTER so and so" and a champion portrait and icon.

 

The SPECIAL reward that would actually boost participation IMO would be to provide Cartel Coins as rewards.

 

This sounds terrible to me. I created my character in order to play the role of that character (duh!). I would not support being a lesser, generic, foot soldier for any reason at all. Access to my own character should never be gated.

 

Don't gate my abilities, either. If my character has learned "Rail Shot," then they would always know how to use it, no matter who they are facing.

 

I'm cool with rewards like special armor and special titles for the best players. That makes sense to me. In fact, it's a darn good prize. And, if you give the threat of taking away the title if they start performing poorly, it gives an incentive to keep trying hard once they've earned the title.

[LordArtemis]

Yes! In fact, I would go one step further and make ALL gear irrelevant to PvP.

 

It should be about situational awareness, teamplay and skill at ALL levels of play, not only organised PvP guilds. If they made it so PvP zones disregard stats from gear and apply Bolster only, PvP would become more accessible to people who predominantly PvE. And it would make the forced PvP to acquire Pierce less of a traumatic experience for those who had never touched warzones prior to level 65.

 

See what I mean....remove the current carrot and folks will bring their own sticks

[Pagy]

vanilla wow identified the issue with not having a "pvp stat". the best raiders then dominate pvp.

 

mmos are about gear grinds; put in the time, you get rewarded. separate gear grinds make the most sense to me. that way pvpers dominate pvp, pve'ers dominate pve. and they can't cross over and be instantly rewarded.

 

to make this crossover more palpable, bolster is used to give people a helping start. we all know the issues with HOW bolster is implemented, but the intent is good imo.

 

so would i pvp without a pvp stat? probably, because historically my pve gear is pretty high scale. but i prefer to have a separate pvp stat.

[Jadescythe]

It depends on the method in which it's removed.

 

If PvE gear then becomes BiS, then no I would not advocate for removal.

 

If stats do not matter at all, then no I would not advocate for removal (no stat customization).

 

If PvP gear becomes free and required to enter a warzone, so you could customize your stats but simply didn't have to grind for gear I would be fine with that.

 

But there really isn't anything wrong with the current system as long as they create a better bolster for PvE gear. Stop trying to normalize their stats and simply look at the piece and if it has no expertise, give it a set amount of stats for that slot. Then you don't have PvE players scrambling to find gear that barely exists in the game anymore in order to get bolstered properly. It also make it easier to balance bolstered stats and still gives some slight reward for continuing to PvP through a minimal gear difference.

[DomiSotto]

Even more so then. I am not a great player, and have no hope of becoming anything special. That system will make me even less competitive, not to mention will skew the balance even more, since the offhealing classes will have the distinctive advantages. And tanks and healers will not even fit anywhere.

 

But there really isn't anything wrong with the current system as long as they create a better bolster for PvE gear. Stop trying to normalize their stats and simply look at the piece and if it has no expertise, give it a set amount of stats for that slot. Then you don't have PvE players scrambling to find gear that barely exists in the game anymore in order to get bolstered properly. It also make it easier to balance bolstered stats and still gives some slight reward for continuing to PvP through a minimal gear difference.

 

190 greens are sold for Basic comms, that everyone is drowning in & have no use for, on the Fleet. It can't be simpler than that.

Edited November 2, 2015 by DomiSotto

[LordArtemis]

IMO there is something very wrong with the current system....lack of participation.

[Pagy]

IMO there is something very wrong with the current system....lack of participation.

pvp is my favourite gametype

 

and pvp in this game is horrible; mostly having to do with lack of class balance and minimal support from bw in terms of maps. healing is way too overpowered, classes have way too many escapes and ways to deal with problems.

 

the game is balanced around pve, and since pvp isn't a very big part of this game community, that makes sense to me.

[MillionsKNives]

Consider me +1 for the stats shouldn't matter in PVP crowd. Either that or at least make bolster make sense, and not punish people with high end PVE gear.

 

190 greens are sold for Basic comms, that everyone is drowning in & have no use for, on the Fleet. It can't be simpler than that.

 

I can't spend my common crystals fast enough on companion gifts. Lots of new influence to grind. What I can't seen to find a use for are my glowing and radiant crystals.

 

Even if there's a "simple" solution, it's an incredibly stupid system that someone would have to go and find worse gear to be more effective in PVP. Most people are going to use whatever is the best gear they've got, if only because it's the most effective outside of PVP and therefore what they're already wearing.

[TUXs]

It depends on the method in which it's removed.

 

If PvE gear then becomes BiS, then no I would not advocate for removal.

 

If stats do not matter at all, then no I would not advocate for removal (no stat customization).

 

If PvP gear becomes free and required to enter a warzone, so you could customize your stats but simply didn't have to grind for gear I would be fine with that.

 

But there really isn't anything wrong with the current system as long as they create a better bolster for PvE gear. Stop trying to normalize their stats and simply look at the piece and if it has no expertise, give it a set amount of stats for that slot. Then you don't have PvE players scrambling to find gear that barely exists in the game anymore in order to get bolstered properly. It also make it easier to balance bolstered stats and still gives some slight reward for continuing to PvP through a minimal gear difference.

 

100% agreed!!!

 

Bolster in PvP needs to ignore whatever you have on and simply look at the level it is. If it's 1 of the 2 new PvP sets, leave it alone...if not, flat stat (based on class and role of course).

 

Even if there's a "simple" solution, it's an incredibly stupid system that someone would have to go and find worse gear to be more effective in PVP. Most people are going to use whatever is the best gear they've got, if only because it's the most effective outside of PVP and therefore what they're already wearing.

 

#1 problem with PvP right there (besides balance and lack of development)...I have been screaming about how stupid it is for years!!! Could not agree more!!!

Edited November 2, 2015 by TUXs

[LordArtemis]

pvp is my favourite gametype

 

and pvp in this game is horrible; mostly having to do with lack of class balance and minimal support from bw in terms of maps. healing is way too overpowered, classes have way too many escapes and ways to deal with problems.

 

the game is balanced around pve, and since pvp isn't a very big part of this game community, that makes sense to me.

 

Fair enough. My solution would solve some of your concerns but would then likely cause others. You would not likely like higher health pools, even with vanilla stats and reduced ability sets.

 

I could be wrong of course. But you have rarely enjoyed my suggestions in the past.

 

I would like to hear what you think could be done to increase overall appeal to the current playerbase.

Edited November 2, 2015 by LordArtemis

[Pagy]

Fair enough. My solution would solve some of your concerns but would then likely cause others. You would not likely like higher health pools, even with vanilla stats and reduced ability sets.

 

I could be wrong of course. But you have rarely enjoyed my suggestions in the past.

 

I would like to hear what you think could be done to increase overall appeal to the current playerbase.

normalizing people would make for a more enjoyable match; it seems like it works fine for shooters.

 

mmo players almost NEED to grind something which this neglects.

[DomiSotto]

Even if there's a "simple" solution, it's an incredibly stupid system that someone would have to go and find worse gear to be more effective in PVP. Most people are going to use whatever is the best gear they've got, if only because it's the most effective outside of PVP and therefore what they're already wearing.

 

You need two sets of gear anyway to eventually host your PvP gear. If there is no PvP gear, that works well in PvP, than the best PvE gear becomes the best in PvP. Then you need to get into high-level PvE to PvP.

 

If stats are all normalized, the class imbalance becomes even more pronounced or the classes have to be homogenized.

 

They can downlevel PvE gear, but then they will need to work it both ways, both up and down, to account for the bolster to help folks in the lowbies/midbies.

 

Honestly, it is not simple stuff.

Edited November 2, 2015 by DomiSotto

[Myiven]

Yes/No - simple question and answer really. I'm just curious if this is a reason why many folk here don't PvP or would like to try it but lack of gear worries them.

 

No, I would not. I do not like PvP in any MMO. I have never liked PvP in any MMO.

[Jeweledleah]

sorta.

 

basically its like this. without expertise, people who raid HM will always have advantage over everyone else. while when the bolster actualy properly working - even if you are just starting out with pvp, you might not be the strongest, but at least you can hold your own.

 

so... rather then removal of expertise outright I would prefer one of two solutions. either

 

make pvp gear comparable to operations gear (downside of that is that now people will feel compelled to pvp for pve upgrades and that is not optimal)

 

or change bolster so that regardless of what type of gear you are wearing - you will always have the same stats when entering pvp - and make pvp rewards cosmetic only (of course that also means that those rewards would have to be awesome, and downside is that there is a relatively large subset of pvpers that pvp for the purpose of being stronger than other players, and normalized stats remove that gear advantage, but... to be honest... being someone who rather likes idea of skill being deciding factor, even though I'm not very good at pvp? to me that's not really a downside)

 

edited to add. I'm also a big fan of abilities functioning slightly differently when used against players, vs use against NPC's IMO it makes balancing for pvp a little more doable, without crapping all over pve as a consequence.

Edited November 2, 2015 by Jeweledleah

[Trimethicon]

I would like to see a mechanic that equalizes everyone's stats for pvp, and have pvp rewards be things like armor shells, stronghold decorations, pets, etc...all cosmetic items.

 

I'm a PVP'er and I agree with this.

[Master-Nala]

IMO there is something very wrong with the current system....lack of participation.

 

PvP? PvP queue pops are less than a minute most days.

[LordArtemis]

normalizing people would make for a more enjoyable match; it seems like it works fine for shooters.

 

mmo players almost NEED to grind something which this neglects.

 

Hmm....we seem to generally agree here. Imagine that

 

Yes, the "gear as carrot" thing, as well as keeping all stats uniform across both play styles is what keeps PVP niche IMO.

[TUXs]

You need two sets of gear anyway to eventually host your PvP gear. If there is no PvP gear, that works well in PvP, than the best PvE gear becomes the best in PvP. Then you need to get into high-level PvE to PvP.

 

If stats are all normalized, the class imbalance becomes even more pronounced or the classes have to be homogenized.

 

They can downlevel PvE gear, but then they will need to work it both ways, both up and down, to account for the bolster to help folks in the lowbies/midbies.

 

Honestly, it is not simple stuff.

It is simple.

 

PvE and PvP gear should be equal (208 and 216). HM/NiM PvE (220) gear would be the only exception to PvP gear, where that gear would be the BEST stats possible.

 

And no, I don't care if PvEers grind up new gear in PvP...not only would that not concern me, I don't see it happening. Why would they waste time doing PvP rather than any Op under the new system? If they DID PvP, chances are they're the type of player who already did it casually.

[Jeweledleah]

 

And no, I don't care if PvEers grind up new gear in PvP...not only would that not concern me, I don't see it happening. Why would they waste time doing PvP rather than any Op under the new system? If they DID PvP, chances are they're the type of player who already did it casually.

 

having played a game where at one point pvp gear was really good for pve? I can explain to you why ops runners would be compelled to pvp for the gear.

 

in opes - you are subject to RNG. both in terms of what drops and whether you win the roll. so gearing up can take considerable time unless you either buy expensive crafted stuff or wear unoptimized gear. while pvp allows you to get exactly what you put into it and since you buy gear with commendations you earn - rng factor is mostly removed. making pvp a better path to better ops gear, until such time that you could win those set token rolls. if you are trying to progress? pvping for upgrades becomes even more compelling. since group being better geared as a while = faster progression through bosses.

 

and even taking SWTOR. remember when people pvped for relics because they were literally second best option and much more affordable then buying crafted ones (I do, hell I took like 6 characters through pvp for those things)? imagine people pvping for entire sets, given enough insentive

[DomiSotto]

But PvE and PvP grind is unequal. To get a PvP set bonus, it only takes participation. You drop in solo, you get comms, win or lose.

 

To get a PvE set bonus, you have to go through a lot more logistics (a 16M group takes up to an hour to form in my experience), have RNG on your side and make the kill (luckily, not a problem now, thanks heavens!).

 

Seriously, I have been PvPing a Merc while participating in Ops on a couple of chars from the beginning of the Early Access.

 

My Merc went from 42 to 59, and has comms for a full set of T2. He will prob has more to share. I would have even more if I rotated toons for dailies/weeklies. And he is at a disadvantage compared to L65 chars, since only one daily and a small weekly.

 

My Sorc has 3 pc 212 Bonus set and an MH (and, I think, implant?), with 212/220s (as well as a couple other chars), and I was running at least 4x a week.

 

EDIT: Not to mention you can transfer comms in PvP easy-peasy!

Edited November 2, 2015 by DomiSotto

[Duedroth]

Expertise has absolutely nothing to do with it. I don't understand the OP's question.

 

Or do you mean Bolster?

 

Expertise is so simple. Either get full pvp gear or make sure all your slots are filled with 190 or lower pve gear. This shouldn't even be a topic.

 

But if you mean BOLSTER, then no, I don't want that removed. I don't want a lvl 40 going against a lvl 64 with no way to even the playing field. Even with Bolster it's hard, but without it'd be impossible.