I will never pug again in this game.

[lironBD]

it is un-playable.

 

doing guild runs or "cherry pick" people on the fleet is only viable way right now to get groups for content in the game.

 

the group finder is totally unreliable.....

 

in the past you couldn't mix levels and only mixed FP was KDY with it's bolster and simple kill everything mechanics... not very hard and you could solo it on tactical.

 

now... oh boy...

 

HM fps are showing as 50-65,

as it happens people there will show up with level 30 gear, no clue what they are doing and will cause a wipe fest.

 

BUT

 

worst part

 

Tacticals.

 

In the past tacticals were easy and simple and didn't need much work. but now they are...

level 10 to 65.

 

For god sake...

 

if you are lucky you get competent healer which can mitigate the living proof to darwin's theories.

if you are not then prepare to sit there for longer then it takes to finish an operation.

few examples,

1. I was an healer - I'm 65 and doing missions for the conquest.

I got a group of 3 marauders at levels 16 \ 25 \ 42 all of them at carnage.

they are so bad and horrible I kill bosses solo while healing them as they still struggle with the trash mobs.

2. same healer toon, I got new group on BoI,

level 22 operative healer which dosen't stab just shoot with his rifle.

level 17 sniper which NEVER takes cover to use sniper abilities.

Level 32 sorc healer which dies each fight... how the hell sorc healer can die in tactical... beyond me.

3. I finished the conquest with my sorc and went to do some with my jugg dps (65 veng full 216 gear),

got mando raiders tactical.

my team was level 17 marauder with the original gear from korriban, level 24 marauder with intellect of 4 years old (without insulting the 4 years old kid) and level 50 PT tank.

this guys... wow, first time in over a year I had to rage quit a group content.

on my previous attempt as an healer I managed to speak with people and teach them few things but this guys kept zergging > die > respawn mid fight and run back to die again.

they kep aggro all the mobs in the way... they refused to speak on chat and listen to me explaining to them we have no healer and they should heal after each fight > instead to zergged forward with 20% health.

the pt tank was glorious getting 1 shot killed by silver mobs not using any defensive cd.

 

I'm sorry bioware but either "Downscale" the level of the fp to their original level and by such block lower level players from access to them or make brackets of players with appropriate levels.

 

Level 12 player by no means have something to do in level 65 group content, it sucks the fun out of it and annoy the crap of everyone.

many people I know in game stopped using gf and will use it only when they have full team to get the reward otherwise it's big no.

 

We need to understand that "streamlined" leveling experience means new player didn't had to learn how to properly use their class and they can't take part in group content which requires minimal understanding of the game.

[Cuiwe]

Why even PuG? It had been, was, has been, is, will have been and is going to be a HORRIBLE, DREADFUL experience .

 

...nothing new, nothing new.

[darkov]

The new Tacticals are a waste of time. Completely unbalanced.

 

I've stopped doing Flashpoints completely now, I just run Operations with my guild and solo the H2's on each planet. Getting plenty of comms and gear that way, plus it contributes to the Alliance.

[Nerfington]

Why even PuG? It had been, was, has been, is, will have been and is going to be a HORRIBLE, DREADFUL experience .

 

...nothing new, nothing new.

I pugged hundreds of times with the LFG back in late 2.x, back when forged alliances and weekly CZ tacticals were a thing. 99% of the time I had a group who knew what they were doing, although I do still remember one time when a Trooper healer showed up in tank gear and said it helped him somehow and we were all just bad for being melee who necessarily had to take boss damage in some fights (e.g. dragging the sandstorm boss in the CZ instance to the green nodes).

 

Tbh I suspect the problem is that with 12xp, and now ultra OP companions, people just aren't challenged to learn how to actually play like they used to. The first time I reached the end of chapter 1, on my consular, I wiped hard on the boss, because I didn't understand the concept of interrupts. I didn't quit, instead I looked it up and found out how to do it, and ended up enjoying it because it made a much more nuanced game to have to manage that in fights. I've seen people say that they haven't even got interrupt on their bar any more because it's so unnecessary.

[Cuiwe]

I pugged hundreds of times with the LFG back in late 2.x, back when forged alliances and weekly CZ tacticals were a thing. 99% of the time I had a group who knew what they were doing, although I do still remember one time when a Trooper healer showed up in tank gear and said it helped him somehow and we were all just bad for being melee who necessarily had to take boss damage in some fights (e.g. dragging the sandstorm boss in the CZ instance to the green nodes).

 

Tbh I suspect the problem is that with 12xp, and now ultra OP companions, people just aren't challenged to learn how to actually play like they used to. The first time I reached the end of chapter 1, on my consular, I wiped hard on the boss, because I didn't understand the concept of interrupts. I didn't quit, instead I looked it up and found out how to do it, and ended up enjoying it because it made a much more nuanced game to have to manage that in fights. I've seen people say that they haven't even got interrupt on their bar any more because it's so unnecessary.

 

Ok, my experiences from several games are heavily slanted towards the "PAINFUL" side(just like OP wrote). Also, my experience with randoms / PuGs in MOBAs is equally bad and disturbing. Did I have some REALLY AWESOME and good groups? You bet! But they are more like an exception to rather than the rule itself. At least, that's been my experience ever since 3,0.

[Frenesi]

Actually, I've never had a problem with pugs in 3.0 cicle of HM flashpoints. People were almost always competent, and those who weren't were usually DPS fodder and easily replacable. But yea, between bolster and companions, it's about to become next tier of difficulty after Nightmare ops. Edited October 28, 2015 by Frenesi

[Storm-Cutter]

I don't suppose OP ever made a mistake when learning how to play.

 

Y'know, sometimes, you can use your superior knowledge to educate your fellow players.

 

But if you can't abide random strangers, join a guild of like-minded players. You only have to find 3 others and you're good to go for 97% of the content.

[Diefenbaker]

PUGs are roulette. I've pug-ed with great people here, I've pug-ed with headless chickens. I've had the same happen in every MMORPG I've ever played.

 

Just like IRL you can get great, competent folks and you can get headless chickens.

Edited October 28, 2015 by Diefenbaker

[CaraExas]

i full pugged an SnV sm the other night. was great, one shot everything.

 

 

i pugged into some rando guilds run of ToS. Wipe fest.

Edited October 28, 2015 by CaraExas

[lironBD]

I don't suppose OP ever made a mistake when learning how to play.

 

Y'know, sometimes, you can use your superior knowledge to educate your fellow players.

 

But if you can't abide random strangers, join a guild of like-minded players. You only have to find 3 others and you're good to go for 97% of the content.

 

and if you would have taken the time to read my post instead of trying to be L337 and write something which sounds smart you would have seen that I wrote that each time I took my time to speak with people via chat and teach them how to do stuff and what is the proper tactics.

problem is when the pugs ignore the chat or they can't speak english.... on an english server but.. still.

[demotivator]

Why even PuG? It had been, was, has been, is, will have been and is going to be a HORRIBLE, DREADFUL experience .

 

...nothing new, nothing new.

 

Honestly except for a few bad groups from time to time PUGs were never that bad till now. Heck my first run (and successful) of ToS was a PUG and I do mean a real one, a group formed purely through groupfinder.

 

But since 4.0 hit last week it has been the contrary, except for a couple of nice runs it has been bad experience after bad experience. I understand that they wanted to allow lowbies to run flashpoints but it doesn't change the fact that it was a terrible idea. Bolster doesn't help when you are wearing greens 20 levels behind where your gear should be. Stupidity is not bolstered either.

 

If they don't get back to how it used to be (I mean they have implemented a solo version of all flashpoints if no mistake, so it is not like people can't see the "story"): story mode at the appropriate level, HM at lvl 65, I am done healing idiots who have no clue what they are doing.

 

And it seems that I am not alone so in the end they have just achieved the contrary of what they wanted: no one will queue anymore and lowbies will still be unable to run flashpoints (not like it was impossible before honestly, when I was soloing HM for achievements and decos, I kept seeing low level groups running them).

Edited October 28, 2015 by demotivator

[PavSalco]

and if you would have taken the time to read my post instead of trying to be L337 and write something which sounds smart you would have seen that I wrote that each time I took my time to speak with people via chat and teach them how to do stuff and what is the proper tactics.

problem is when the pugs ignore the chat or they can't speak english.... on an english server but.. still.

 

Precisely. People don't listen anyway. They do the same mistakes over and over again. I don't touch HM Flashpoints at all. I'm only coming to tacticals now and the teams I play in usually wipe at least once. Not that bad. I usually can carry them through.

 

People don't know the basics like they dont' go out of big red circles. What are they thinking? Perhaps "Hmmm a big red circle, I wonder what does it do to me?".

[ForceWelder]

OP ...

 

I'm actually glad you brought this up. Because I agree with you. This is going to be an on going issue.

 

I can give my own experience this past weekend as an example.

 

I created a new Sith Warrior after 4.0 was released just so I could get a taste for the changes on the beginning story chapters. Right off the bat I knew there would be a problem with level sync and flashpoints.

 

For example, I literally was level 17 before I finished all the content on Korriban. I did every quest on the planet and even did two warzones after hitting level 10. And that was all I did to get to 17. I was a bit shocked to see that I was continuing to level like crazy even if I (and my companion) were scaled down to level 12. Nothing I did, even the Heroic +2s when I was at level 10 were even remotely difficult with my character even with empty modified gear and a companion that was level synced with me. And no, I didn't even have external XP boosts going. I wasn't part of a guild, I didn't use a cartel XP boost, and I didn't activate the XP boosts in the legacy.

 

As a subscriber and long term player, I decked out my toon in full modified gear and accessed Nico as soon as I got to the first mailbox. Basically, I got access to him before I so much as killed the first critter or resolved the first quest. I even tried to gimp Nico's damage output by placing him in healer mode, but we still killed everything in sight without issue.

 

So even after leaving Korriban, I still had a problem. I didn't even have enough comms on me to properly gear out my character. (I only came to realize that 12 crystals are still part of the class quest reward starting on the capital world.) So I ran my first flashpoint (as an experiment) and as a hope to gain sufficient crystals to gear my toon out.

 

Lets just say I was all but absolutely useless in boss fights. I was basically synced up but I might as well have been naked because my gear was not modified in any way shape or form. Not only was my DPS gimped, but if I made even one mistake in a boss fight I was instantly killed.

 

After I gained some more levels and had a sufficient number of crystals to gear my toon out, I queued up group finder again. This time I was decked out in full level 25 modified gear plus had the basic level 10 earpiece, relics, and implants that we now get the first time we interact with a PVP terminal.

 

As odds would have it, Group Finder put me in the exact same flashpoint I had run previously ... The Foundry.

 

My results still weren't much better. I was still well under geared and I still ended up dying in the HK fight and Revan fight. And I had to be carried through both boss fights by players who were much higher level than myself.

 

My point is, even as an experienced player I see PUG groups being victim to the same issues I had on this character. It is quite possible that no player on the PUG would be either appropriate level or gear to do the particular flashpoint they are randomly dropped into. And in those cases, I just don't see them finishing any of the boss fights much less finishing the flashpoint.

 

Because even the experienced players are going to have the same problems I did. No way to properly gear out for the flashpoint, and even possibly not having access to specific skills that were intended to be used in those particular boss fights.

 

Level sync and flashpoints (in its current version) is just a bad idea. It is one thing to down scale a player to a low level flashpoint. It is another to upscale a player to a flashpoint that they can't even hope to successfully complete due to lack of access to skills and appropriate level gear.

 

The only partial fix I can think to give to this is to limit group finder to just flashpoints a player should be able to normally access at their level. But even this doesn't fix the gear issue. With over powered companions now doing pretty much all of the heavy lifting, players are simply going to get lazy and not upgrade like the normally would. The only players who might do it religiously will be the PVPers and even they are a dying breed due to BW's neglect of the PVP community.

Edited October 28, 2015 by ForceWelder

[lpsmash]

I don't understand how there are so many players who are so bad at this game. I mean, there are some really bad wow players, but the last time I played, I was way more likely than not to be able to finish an instance in a timely manner. In SWTOR, not so much.. sometimes can't even kill the final boss by myself.

[Bobs_YourUncle]

I still haven't had a chance to try out the new GF. I look forward to discovering how bad it is though. I've seen a lot of mixed reviews. I can see bolster not making up for severely undergeared 50s.

 

But, yeah, Its always been much better to avoid pugs if you have an active guild or friends in game.

[DisIzMe]

It depends ,some groups are bad some are good. A bit worse then pre-KOTFE but not that much actually. At least as far as HM and operations are concerned,did not try tactical.

[LordKalvarius]

A pug should be only used for Lols.

 

Serious FP's should be done with a group you know can halfway play a class. If you dont have this, then i suggest seeking it out.

 

We be puggin

[Rafaman]

Heh. This happens every time people are introduced to a new gameplay mode and every time we get new HMs, and tacticals.

 

The fact is many people are being introduced to flashpoints of all varieties. Once they learn how they work and what they need to do be successful, things will become much more stable.

 

OP, instead of whining, teach. If you don't have the patience, don't pug and wait for a while. Soon, you will get your faceroll back.

Edited October 28, 2015 by Rafaman

[DawnAskham]

Multiple issues being mixed together in this thread.

 

Pug quality has not changed - you get a few really good groups, a lot of average groups, and a few really bad groups.

 

What has changed is the tuning of the content and level bands being thrown together in new up-scaled tacticals and HMs.

 

And whether it is the bolster not being enough to bring lower level players up to the content's scaling and / or too many mobs in trash pulls / mobs and bosses doing too much damage, something is off.

 

A role balanced group with players above the median level can clear most without too much trouble, while several lower levels matched with an all dps group can make the run nearly impossible (unless one considers players dying every trash pull and running back to kill what is left up as possible).

 

Bioware needs to post up something regarding the issue of content tuning and low level dps being matched in these new flashpoints, along with their intentions and how they plan to rectify the issues, that is unless they want participation to fall dramatically.

 

Heh. This happens every time people are introduced to a new gameplay mode and every time we get new HMs, and tacticals.

 

The fact is many people are being introduced to flashpoints of all varieties. Once they learn how they work and what they need to do be successful, things will become much more stable.

 

OP, instead of whining, teach. If you don't have the patience, don't pug and wait for a while. Soon, you will get your faceroll back.

 

Not going to happen with all the content being leveling content now, not end game.

 

When it was restricted more or less to level cap, one could fall back on the old adage of teaching others and helping players gear up, but that model falls apart when one is talking about getting matched with a pair of level 18 leapers with gear from Korriban in one of the old flashpoints boosted to 65 and set to tactical.

 

And in most places, I don't think huge changes are needed other than some toning down of trash mob damage, a few tweaks to specific bosses / boss abilities (probably just missed in the scaling) that do too much damage even with kolto stations, and a more generous allowance for bolster for lower levels (especially DR).

Edited October 28, 2015 by DawnAskham

[Costello]

BW have said that they had plans that were better than cross server queues and this was it. Make group combat far more difficult and a lack of any real reward.

 

Its easy to blame the zerg ******* but lets face it my healer companion heals me quicker than my rest ability. So the devs have designed a game that encourages this play and then players are expected to educate these people that found the game too challenge before that they need tactics, its not going to work.

 

That said did the new HM flash point Red Reaper and it was incredibly badly designed in that the trash fights were harder than the boss fights. The dev teams idea to make all content level 65 by increasing health and damage of all the mobs while not taking into consideration the fight has made for a bizare playing experience that I would not encourage anyone to participate in.

[Bristol]

For SM FP PUGs, pray that you get made the group leader, so that when the tera-bad meatbag drops or gets kicked, you can replace them with your >20 Influence companion and steam-roll the rest of the FP.

 

Whenever I enter a FP now, I try to inform the group leader that if anyone drops, to not put us back into the queue because companions > players now.

 

This often results in laughter...

[DomiSotto]

Puging is a bad idea, yes.

[Halinalle]

OP, be glad you don't get kicked from tacticals because of 204 two piece set bonus.

[JediQuaker]

doing guild runs or "cherry pick" people on the fleet is only viable way right now to get groups for content in the game.

Realistically, that has always been the way to get consistent groups for those who were concerned about it. If for some reason you must go through GF, then it's only reasonable to assume it's a PUG and things can get loosey-goosey.

Get into a guild, or get a cherry picked group, or stop whining.

Edited October 28, 2015 by JediQuaker

[lironBD]

People should really read the entire main post before they reply to a thread many of the remarks and questions were answer as part of it.

 

1. I'm in a guild.

2. I'm trying to explain to people what to do but the zerg and ignore the chat or they don't speak english.

3. there is no realistic way to make level 15 mara with korriban gear viable at level 65 numbers content.. he lack the abilities of the class.