GripenWard Posted October 21, 2015 Share Posted October 21, 2015 (edited) That is not the only logical conclusion, in fact it's not a logical conclusion at all. If someone says you need to do something from X to Y, then the logical assumption is that whatever it is, needs to be done from X to Y, not at any point between X and Y. logical assumption What leads to assumptions? Ambiguous language. You can't force your assumption on everybody, that would be... illogical. EDIT: and vice-versa ofcourse Edited October 21, 2015 by GripenWard Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
VanorDM Posted October 21, 2015 Share Posted October 21, 2015 logical assumption You're right, that was a poor choice of words. Logical interpretation would be better. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GripenWard Posted October 21, 2015 Share Posted October 21, 2015 You're right, that was a poor choice of words. Logical interpretation would be better. interpret: to construe or understand in a particular way... Another? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
_NovaBlast_ Posted October 21, 2015 Share Posted October 21, 2015 this thread is stilll going .... wellll i guess this needs to be re-said I find this funny people don't think this game is worth paying a subscription but then cry When they miss out on the rewards given to subscribers This ^^^^^ and the fact that they complain and say bio "scammed" them becase they didn't actually take the time read.... its probable its the the same people who say they got "scammed" on gtn becase "pricing display" which is totally avoidable .... but again they didn't take the time to read ..... wow really ... there is two different examples of that ... wow ...that must means something... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SelinaH Posted October 21, 2015 Share Posted October 21, 2015 To the best of my knowledge there was no verbiage in the late campaign emails and launcher media that would lead a customer to believe there were additional T&Cs that needed to be reviewed in order to get Early Access. Couldn't a user bypass the rewards landing page and still subscribe? Would a user have known about the additional T&Cs simply via the email marketing? If a user isn't explicitly directed to a terms and conditions page, or made aware of it's existence in marketing media, can they still be held to those T&Cs? I'm asking because I honestly don't know, but can see situations where a user would bypass the rewards page and simply subscribe based on the marketing materials sent to them - especially if that marketing material does not explicitly state "Terms and Conditions apply". This is a fair point. However, the vast majority (if not all) of the complaints I've seen here do not actually dispute that there was a T&C warning or link to additional information contained in the email; instead they maintain that the expectation that a potential consumer should access and understand the linked materials is too onerous or unreasonable. BW could certainly do a better job with unambiguous wording for many of their communications, but I personally don't believe that this debacle falls solely on their shoulders. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
VanorDM Posted October 21, 2015 Share Posted October 21, 2015 (edited) Another? No not really. Any statement over 3 or 4 words is likely open for interpretation, and can be read to have more than one meaning. That doesn't however mean all interpretations of a given sentence are valid or logical. I mean clearly there are people who read the "Choose to be a Subscriber from August 10 to October 19 to receive the Early Access Bonus Reward!" line to mean that if you subscribe any time before Oct 19th, you're eligible for early access. I'm not going to assume that they're too stupid to understand what 'from x to y' means and so they interpreted it way that wasn't fitting with the most logical way of reading that sentence. Now I'll grant that it may of been better if bioware had posted something on Aug 11th saying that early access was no longer something you could be eligible for. But let's be honest, that would of been in the T&C and the same people would of missed it anyway. Edited October 21, 2015 by VanorDM Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GripenWard Posted October 21, 2015 Share Posted October 21, 2015 (edited) No not really. Any statement over 3 or 4 words is likely open for interpretation, and can be read to have more than one meaning. That doesn't however mean all interpretations of a given sentence are valid or logical. It also doesn't mean only one is. And here you go again, claiming that anybody who didn't assume or interpret a sentence based on your logical assumptions and interpretations (which we've already shown to be subjective) is stupid. No, not everybody is stupid because they haven't had the same experiences as you and so have differing biases, assumptions, and interpretations. Some people might find you stupid for trying to prove your point by using terms that mean exactly the opposite of what you're trying to say. Edited October 21, 2015 by GripenWard Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lordgracy Posted October 21, 2015 Share Posted October 21, 2015 (edited) That's BW's fault just how? Just because you didn't subscribe doesn't mean the info wasn't out there. Do you really think people who supported the game more than us don't deserve something? You honestly think having to wait until the expansion is actually released is a punishment? I mean if a game is being sold and pre-orders are offered early access, do you honestly think you should get it too if you buy it on release day? They could have offered a XX dollar extra charge for someone who subbed last week to obtain early access. They didn't. This is my point. You had to know about the early access 3 months in advance so you had to be f5ing the SWTOR website everyday to know this if you were unsubscribed from their news! This is beyond STUPID. You can give incentives to loyal customers in other ways then letting them play the game while potential customers are sitting out. Hindering returning players(potential long term subs) actually playing the game is just preposterous. edit:: if I was BW i'd be secretly treating returning customers a lot better then the loyal fan boys. Just saying.... Its called closing a SALE! Not to mention why even have that early access verbiage on the website at ALL past august tenth! Whats the point of that? Oh sorry look you could have had early access but we'll just leave that up to make you confused for a whole three months. BW should of have had something on your account page that tells the qualified people they are currently qualified for early access and to not unsub before oct 19th. Edited October 21, 2015 by lordgracy Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kryptonomic Posted October 21, 2015 Share Posted October 21, 2015 If I choose to go from London to New York I don't end up in the sea, unless the plane crashes, there is nothing gramatically incorrect, having from in the sentence makes it clear, its between these two dates you must be a subscriber, not somewhere between but from the first date until the last date. The problem is that it's not unambiguous, which is what I stated. High school grammar taught us to be wary of words like "from" and "to" when discussing ranges that are inclusive or exclusive. Marketing folks -- which I don't expect players to be; but do expect BW marketers to be -- certainly know to use qualifiers for ranges that are unambiguous. As I said, this would have been demonstrably better: "You must be a subscriber starting on August 10 and remain subscribed through October 19 to receive the Early Access Bonus Award." It really can be that simple. And I speak here as someone who does have early access and did interpret the original wording exactly as you are stating. But I can still be objective and point out that it could have been clearer. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lordgracy Posted October 21, 2015 Share Posted October 21, 2015 The problem is that it's not unambiguous, which is what I stated. High school grammar taught us to be wary of words like "from" and "to" when discussing ranges that are inclusive or exclusive. Marketing folks -- which I don't expect players to be; but do expect BW marketers to be -- certainly know to use qualifiers for ranges that are unambiguous. As I said, this would have been demonstrably better: "You must be a subscriber starting on August 10 and remain subscribed through October 19 to receive the Early Access Bonus Award." It really can be that simple. And I speak here as someone who does have early access and did interpret the original wording exactly as you are stating. But I can still be objective and point out that it could have been clearer. IT'S IRELLAVANT. It shouldn't have even been on the site past august tenth. Why should people see what they can't have? They simply should have had a message on the qualified sub holder's account page telling them not to unsub till oct 19th to keep their early access. OR they should have had a better model for early access altogether which is my argument. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GripenWard Posted October 21, 2015 Share Posted October 21, 2015 IT'S IRELLAVANT. It shouldn't have even been on the site past august tenth. True. From consumer.laws.com Deceptive advertising, also known as false advertising, refers to a manufacturer's use of confusing, misleading, or blatantly untrue statements when promoting a product. They used blatantly untrue statements when promoting their product through emails to non-subs after August 10th. There is literally no way to explain that away, it doesn't matter that a person could go to a site, their email promotion was deceptive. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sileas Posted October 21, 2015 Share Posted October 21, 2015 Some of you should go to work for Bioware as defense attorneys. That way you can get paid for what you do instead of sitting in a basement like good little neckbeards. The only complaints that matter are those of people who feel they were misled which is more than just one person. The only reply to their complaints that matter should be those from Bioware it's self, not from the fan boys and trolls. I read all the T&C and saw how it was misleading and knew this was going to happen. This is nothing new with Bioware and one of the reasons I don't trust them as a company. Maybe, if they were more transparent and avoided these practices more people would support the game? Some advice to those going back and forth with the trolls, stop wasting your time. Send your complaints to Bioware via snail mail, email and use twitter. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thunderstriken Posted October 21, 2015 Share Posted October 21, 2015 That is not the only logical conclusion, in fact it's not a logical conclusion at all. If someone says you need to do something from X to Y, then the logical assumption is that whatever it is, needs to be done from X to Y, not at any point between X and Y. Actually, you are wrong. Especially in this situation. They used the present tense verb choose which logically implies the choice is possible. Furthermore they use the phrase, choose to be a subscriber, which is a singular action event. The logical conclusion to be drawn from the choice of present tense verbiage combined with single action event is that one must choose to be a subscriber somewhere in that range of dates. Their are countless ways the promotion could have been worded to remove all ambiguity and doubt. Using present tense verbiage in a timeline component that is chronologically out of order is most certainly at the very least open to interpretation. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
VanorDM Posted October 21, 2015 Share Posted October 21, 2015 And here you go again, claiming that anybody who didn't assume or interpret a sentence based on your logical assumptions and interpretations (which we've already shown to be subjective) is stupid. No I quite clearly did not assume that and said as much. I assumed they interpreted it the wrong way, rather then that they're stupid. If you wish to discuss something then please actually read my posts and stop trying to claim something I never said. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
VanorDM Posted October 21, 2015 Share Posted October 21, 2015 Actually, you are wrong. Especially in this situation. No I'm not. the phrase "from X to Y" includes everything from X to Y. The tense of the verb means nothing in this case, and is nothing more than a strawman. The only way they could've worded it differently and have the same meaning would be to say from X through Y, which in this case effectively means the same thing. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
VanorDM Posted October 21, 2015 Share Posted October 21, 2015 They used blatantly untrue statements when promoting their product through emails to non-subs after August 10th. Wrong again. There was nothing in the statements on that page that are untrue. You were still eligable for rewards other than early access, and subscribing prior to Aug 10th wouldn't qualify you. You had to subscribe from X to Y for that. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GripenWard Posted October 21, 2015 Share Posted October 21, 2015 (edited) No I'm not. the phrase "from X to Y" includes everything from X to Y. The tense of the verb means nothing in this case, and is nothing more than a strawman. The only way they could've worded it differently and have the same meaning would be to say from X through Y, which in this case effectively means the same thing. Then please tell me how I can choose to go back in time to sub at the beginning of the range. I mean that's impossible right? Why would Bioware ask me to choose to do something that's impossible. That's illogical. Edited October 21, 2015 by GripenWard Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GripenWard Posted October 21, 2015 Share Posted October 21, 2015 (edited) Wrong again. There was nothing in the statements on that page that are untrue. You were still eligable for rewards other than early access, and subscribing prior to Aug 10th wouldn't qualify you. You had to subscribe from X to Y for that. I said emails... email promotions... I didn't say anything about promotion through the page itself. If you wish to discuss something then please actually read my posts and stop trying to claim something I never said. Edited October 21, 2015 by GripenWard Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
translucentwolf Posted October 21, 2015 Share Posted October 21, 2015 It's a week of early access, given to Subscribers who were Subscribed at the indicated time. If you kept your sub from day 1, then you'll automatically receive all the freebies. If you tried to cancel / resub / cancel / resub in order to hit certain days, you may have missed something. Consider just staying subscribed. It's 12.99/month. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
VanorDM Posted October 21, 2015 Share Posted October 21, 2015 Then please tell me how I can choose to go back in time to sub at the beginning of the range. Was there anything in that statement that implied you could be eligible for early access after Aug 11th? Again the statement is quite clear to me. But the whole point of the T&C was to explain it to anyone who had questions. So if you misunderstood it, but didn't bother to read the rest of the page and look at the FAQ you have no one to blame but yourself. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
menofhorror Posted October 21, 2015 Share Posted October 21, 2015 OMG It`s a *********** week people. I think you can handle. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
VanorDM Posted October 21, 2015 Share Posted October 21, 2015 I said emails... email promotions. Then by all means post the untrue statements in those emails. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dlcman Posted October 21, 2015 Share Posted October 21, 2015 Representatives from the firm Hairy, Combover, and Bald are willing to talk to some of you. Seriously an episode of SpongeBob is more mature than this thread. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bristol Posted October 21, 2015 Share Posted October 21, 2015 (edited) If you really feel wronged, there is always the FTC! The FTC online complaint form is here: https://www.ftccomplaintassistant.gov/#crnt&panel1-1 Complaints help the FTC and other law enforcement agencies bring scam artists to justice and put an end to unfair and misleading business practices. If you have a complaint, file it online or call 1-877-FTC-HELP. This is you. You've been ripped off, or you've spotted a scam. Don't keep it to yourself. Take it to the Federal Trade Commission by filing a complaint. What kind of complaint? The Federal Trade Commission is the nation's Consumer Protection Agency. So if a business doesn't deliver on its promises, or if someone cheats you out of your money, the Federal Trade Commission wants to hear about it. ... Telling the Federal Trade Commission helps us stop ripoffs, scams, and fraudsters. Your complaints matter here. To file a complaint, just go to ftc.gov/complaint, and answer the questions. Or call That's all there is to it. If you've been ripped off or scammed, complain to the Federal Trade Commission. It can help put the bad guys out of business. Edited October 21, 2015 by Bristol Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bakakiba Posted October 21, 2015 Share Posted October 21, 2015 Some of you should go to work for Bioware as defense attorneys. That way you can get paid for what you do instead of sitting in a basement like good little neckbeards. The only complaints that matter are those of people who feel they were misled which is more than just one person. The only reply to their complaints that matter should be those from Bioware it's self, not from the fan boys and trolls. I read all the T&C and saw how it was misleading and knew this was going to happen. This is nothing new with Bioware and one of the reasons I don't trust them as a company. Maybe, if they were more transparent and avoided these practices more people would support the game? Some advice to those going back and forth with the trolls, stop wasting your time. Send your complaints to Bioware via snail mail, email and use twitter. I guess "neckbeard" is the wannabe cool kids' insult. Oh well...Guess I'll go enjoy the early release now, as I'm fluent in English and can read. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts