Darth Nox vs Hero of tython

[DudeinFlames]

Also confirmed by Lucas in the AotC dvd commentary is that the dark side of the Force is in fact stronger than the light, and that is one of the primary reasons why I think Nox is stronger. I'm perfectly aware that a Jedi's strength flows from the Force, whether they're saber-swingers or object-chuckers, but the same is true for the Sith, and the dark side will straight-up give them more power, as per Lucas and observable content.

Some problems with this logic. You're assuming the HoT and NoX have the same capacity to use the Force to make this statement even remotely relevant, and that's a pretty big assumption since Nox is the only one in the entire game that needs to augment themselves to compete. I don't know where the source for the Dark being stronger than the Light is coming from, and yes I've listened the commentary before, but given TCW's take on it, which is a lot more recent than 2002, these Forces are supposed to be in balance. The Dark Side may allow one to gain more power quickly, but on a cosmic level any one side shifting too much is kind of not supposed to happen. Hence the entire Original Saga.

[nimmerstil]

... since Nox is the only one in the entire game that needs to augment themselves to compete. ...

Kallig ate 4 ghosts, others who tried ate 1 and died from indigestion.

[DAWUSS]

It never outright states it but it's kind of obvious if you go by the niman descriptions. Whether for single saber or double bladed saber. Channeling force techniques into the double bladed saber for attacks is very Niman. Exar Kun did the same thing and he was a notable niman practitioner. Using a single saber for defense while you unleash a powerful force assault is very Niman as well. Two different applications of the same style. Niman can be a fearsome style but the problem is it only works if you're sufficiently strong in the force so most Jedi and Sith don't adopt it.

 

Another flaw of Niman is that if your opponent is much stronger than you and capable of resisting your force techniques while being an incredible duelist themselves.. you're kind of screwed. More martial styles are better suited at allowing you to stand a chance against a more powerful opponent. On the other hand.. someone who is studying a more martial style and could potentially take you on with enough skill may simply get overwhelmed by your mastery of force techniques not giving them a chance. It's very adept at simply bulldozing down others who aren't "up to your level." Niman <3

 

SWTOR also has the Niman Master's Primary and Secondary Lightsabers. Apparently to be used by Sentinels and Marauders...

[DudeinFlames]

Kallig ate 4 ghosts, others who tried ate 1 and died from indigestion.

No, the same thing that happens to the Inquisitor is what happened to everyone else. The difference is instead of dying, Nox made it to the Mother Machine. The only reason you even know about it is because someone else found it first. That's basically the Inquisitor's entire storyline.

[nimmerstil]

No, the same thing that happens to the Inquisitor is what happened to everyone else. The difference is instead of dying, Nox made it to the Mother Machine. The only reason you even know about it is because someone else found it first. That's basically the Inquisitor's entire storyline.

I take it you don't appreciate the Inquisitor's storyline? Don't be too hard on yourself, it's not for everyone.

Edited October 9, 2015 by nimmerstil

[Rhyltran]

SWTOR also has the Niman Master's Primary and Secondary Lightsabers. Apparently to be used by Sentinels and Marauders...

 

Weapon names are non-canon. It's just the name of the weapons. I could make the argument sentinels/marauders don't know niman because they get no niman forms but I digress.

[DudeinFlames]

I take it you don't appreciate the Inquisitor's storyline? Don't be too hard on yourself, it's not for everyone.

No, but unlike some people, I actually paid attention to it. Just a few posts up someone is talking about "becomes like a colicoid," with a serum that lasted a few hours max. The fact that I'm not worshiping Nox doesn't mean I don't appreciate the story. That's a bunch of nonsense.

[Aeneas_Falco]

I don't think the Knight could defeat Nox. If we ignore the obvious plot armor that the Hero of Tython would have, then Nox is just to much of a power house.

 

Also the Knight didn't defeat the Emperor...he defeated the voice of the Emperor two very very different things.

 

The Jedi Knight defeated the Emperor.

 

Darth Marr confirms it in Shadow of Revan when he says that the Hero of Tython wounded the Emperor's spirit more deeply than any other person ever has, before adding that no single person can ever kill the Emperor.

 

The Voices aren't completely separate entities from the Emperor. The Emperor was possessing the Voice the Jedi Knight defeated, and when the Voice was killed the Emperor was wounded. If you fight against a Voice, you're fighting against the Emperor. The possession trick just allows the Emperor to escape a permanent death in the event that he loses.

Edited October 9, 2015 by Aeneas_Falco

[SithKoriandr]

No, the same thing that happens to the Inquisitor is what happened to everyone else. The difference is instead of dying, Nox made it to the Mother Machine. The only reason you even know about it is because someone else found it first. That's basically the Inquisitor's entire storyline.

 

Well, it's because they ate 4 (or 5) that they need the mother machine. The other ate one and needed the mother machine.

 

Imperious would've been fine if she kept to one.

 

Also, the ghost eating is a natural ability to Imperious and is powerful in the force, the difference between Imperious and the other three powerful force users, is they were noted for this earlier in their life.

 

Inquisitor comes into training late in the game.

 

Warrior, Knight and Consular had all been trained since early childhood. Though, I will say Knight and Consular storylines seems to leave it open for them to have not been raised by the Jedi as a youngling.

 

So here you have the late starter and they're rapidly catching up on the training, but it makes sense, motivation being they were a slave and that's never going to happen again and also, Inquisitor comes off a bit of a reader. No doubt about fighting either, but Knight and Warrior are less likely to go searching tombs for knowledge and power. Consular might, but also busy with missions of diplomacy.

[Anysao]

Well, Nox is considered to be the next Emperor by many. If he manages to unlock more of Vitiate's secrets (namely mass mind control), the Hero may be unable to lift a blade at, given what happened last time...

[Jorander]

Some problems with this logic. You're assuming the HoT and NoX have the same capacity to use the Force to make this statement even remotely relevant, and that's a pretty big assumption since Nox is the only one in the entire game that needs to augment themselves to compete.

 

I think you mean there's some problems with my "evidence." Not my logic. Only thing that matters in logic is whether or not the argument is structurally valid and free of reasoning errors. What you're questioning in this post is my source, not my application of reasoning.

 

To compete with Thanaton, a fully-trained dark lord of the Sith who had been amassing personal strength for decades. Nox starts off as an apprentice and rather rapidly catches up. Nox has a powerful sith lord in the ancestral line, and masters a technique that many others have died trying to learn.

 

I don't know where the source for the Dark being stronger than the Light is coming from,

 

You don't? It's coming from the mouth of George Lucas himself.

 

and yes I've listened the commentary before,

 

Well, that's where you'll find it. Check out the scene with Shmi's funeral on Tatooine and turn on the commentary by George Lucas. Here's the quote; "...to become the most powerful Jedi, and the only way you can really do that is to go to the Dark side because the Dark side is more powerful. If you want the ultimate power you really have to go to the stronger side, which is the Dark side..."

 

but given TCW's take on it, which is a lot more recent than 2002, these Forces are supposed to be in balance.

 

I think you're misunderstanding. The Jedi believe that the right and proper state of the Force is balance, not drowning in darkness. Given what the dark side is, and what balance means, I agree with them. But in terms of power available to the individual through the use of the Force, the dark side in that area is absolutely stronger. A Jedi who draws on the dark side is going to find they possess greater power when compared to a Jedi of more-or-less equal ability who doesn't draw on the dark side.

 

The Dark Side may allow one to gain more power quickly, but on a cosmic level any one side shifting too much is kind of not supposed to happen.

 

It allows one to gain more power, period, but at a cost. I wasn't talking about the cosmic scale. I was talking about the power of the dark side, not the state of cosmic balance between the dark and the light. The dark side could be chased to the far edge of the galaxy by light and a Jedi could still find more power drawing on the dark than the light.

 

Hence the entire Original Saga.

 

The original saga happened because, in the cosmic scale, the dark side almost completely enveloped the Force.

 

No, the same thing that happens to the Inquisitor is what happened to everyone else. The difference is instead of dying, Nox made it to the Mother Machine. The only reason you even know about it is because someone else found it first. That's basically the Inquisitor's entire storyline.

 

That's...a bit of an exaggeration.

Edited October 10, 2015 by Jorander

[Aeneas_Falco]

On second thought...in some respects its not really relevant who is more powerful with the force. The more powerful force user doesn't always win. Although rare it isn't unknown for force users, even powerful ones, to be killed by non force users as well.

 

Obi Wan is weaker than Anakin Skywalker canonically, yet he owns Anakin in Revenge of the Sith. Luke, while possessing greater potential than Vader, was barely trained when he laid the smackdown on pops in Return of the Jedi. An argument could be made for Qui Gon being more powerful than Darth Maul, yet he he was killed by Maul. The Emperor, who was many times more powerful than Vader, couldn't stop his rebellious apprentice from lifting him up and tossing him down the Death Star's reactor shaft.

 

We even see that to a certain extent in SWTOR.

 

The Jedi Knight defeats the Emperor, who is certainly the more powerful force user of the two. Every playable force user also has victories in their class story where they defeat Sith Lords/ Darths or Jedi Knights / Masters while still Padawans or Apprentices. Even if they had more potential than their defeated opponents, in terms of training or skill they'd have been the weaker of the two.

 

It also isn't relevant whether or not the dark side is stronger. In the end it still boils down to skill or ability or just plain luck of the duelists, and force alignment isn't much of a factor in who wins or loses. If force alignment were a factor we'd expect one side to win more consistently in duels in the lore, but that just doesn't happen. If the dark side is stronger it apparently doesn't give a significant edge, because the Sith hold no advantage over the Jedi as a whole. They lose duels to Jedi just as much as they win in the lore.

 

My take on force alignment is that the dark side is more powerful offensively, but the light side is the better of the two defensively. A duel between evenly matched Jedi and Sith would be like the immovable object meeting the irresistible force. That might be a good way to some up a fight between the Hero of Tython and Darth Nox as well.

Edited October 10, 2015 by Aeneas_Falco

[Rhyltran]

 

 

 

You don't? It's coming from the mouth of George Lucas himself.

 

 

 

Well, that's where you'll find it. Check out the scene with Shmi's funeral on Tatooine and turn on the commentary by George Lucas. Here's the quote; "...to become the most powerful Jedi, and the only way you can really do that is to go to the Dark side because the Dark side is more powerful. If you want the ultimate power you really have to go to the stronger side, which is the Dark side..."

 

He was talking about Anakin's mindset. His thoughts. The way he was thinking. He was giving insight into Anakin's mind. Anakin felt the dark side was stronger. So to him the logical choice if he wasn't strong enough to save Padme and the ones he loved was to go to the dark side.

Edited October 10, 2015 by Rhyltran

[DudeinFlames]

I think you mean there's some problems with my "evidence." Not my logic. Only thing that matters in logic is whether or not the argument is structurally valid and free of reasoning errors. What you're questioning in this post is my source, not my application of reasoning.

log·ic

ˈläjik/Submit

noun

1.

reasoning conducted or assessed according to strict principles of validity.

 

So what I did here was question your reasoning. Yes that includes evidence. It is still questioning your logic.

To compete with Thanaton, a fully-trained dark lord of the Sith who had been amassing personal strength for decades. Nox starts off as an apprentice and rather rapidly catches up. Nox has a powerful sith lord in the ancestral line, and masters a technique that many others have died trying to learn.

Yeah, you may have not noticed, but Baras was more powerful than Thanaton. The Wrath didn't need 4/5 ghosts to combat and defeat him. Having a powerful Sith in your bloodline thousands of years ago won't make Nox anymore powerful than they are shown in game. And Force-Walking isn't a measure of power.

You don't? It's coming from the mouth of George Lucas himself.

 

 

 

Well, that's where you'll find it. Check out the scene with Shmi's funeral on Tatooine and turn on the commentary by George Lucas. Here's the quote; "...to become the most powerful Jedi, and the only way you can really do that is to go to the Dark side because the Dark side is more powerful. If you want the ultimate power you really have to go to the stronger side, which is the Dark side..."

Post above explains this pretty well.

I think you're misunderstanding. The Jedi believe that the right and proper state of the Force is balance, not drowning in darkness. Given what the dark side is, and what balance means, I agree with them. But in terms of power available to the individual through the use of the Force, the dark side in that area is absolutely stronger. A Jedi who draws on the dark side is going to find they possess greater power when compared to a Jedi of more-or-less equal ability who doesn't draw on the dark side.

I think you misunderstand a great deal of things. For starters, this assumes that all Jedi have the same capacity and affinity for either side of the Force. They don't. Beings like the ancient Sith were naturally attenuated towards the Dark Side. They will find it easier to master and use it. As such, their descendants in the Empire will also find it easier to use the Dark Side. It's in their blood. A random Jedi will not have so easy a time mastering or handling the corruption the Dark Side brings. This doesn't even go into the fact that Mortis exists and that what the Jedi believe has no bearing on the facts presented about the Force.

It allows one to gain more power, period, but at a cost. I wasn't talking about the cosmic scale. I was talking about the power of the dark side, not the state of cosmic balance between the dark and the light. The dark side could be chased to the far edge of the galaxy by light and a Jedi could still find more power drawing on the dark than the light.

Uh, no. But I'll bite. When have you ever seen someone be more powerful than a master of the Light simply because they drew on the Dark Side? Take DE for example, Luke is clearly less powerful than Sidious the entire time he's drawing on the Dark Side, and he's obviously drawing on the Dark Side given his eye color. Then for some odd reason, when Leia brings him back to the Light, he's able to overpower Palpatine, and she's not amping him, she's specifically stated to only be clearing his mind. All evidence points to the Dark Side being a quicker source of power, not a stronger one.

 

The original saga happened because, in the cosmic scale, the dark side almost completely enveloped the Force.

No, it was because on a cosmic scale, the Dark Side was becoming more powerful than the Light. More specifically, in the EU at least, Plagueis and Sidious tipped the balance in the Dark Side's favor after months of rituals.

 

That's...a bit of an exaggeration.

 

No it's not. From the second you leave Korriban, it's always someone telling you about some ritual or another to gain more power. This includes your ancestral relics, Tulak Hord's rituals, a super weapon, four Force Ghosts, plus a bonus fifth, and an army that's just given to you. It's like saying the Wrath's entire storyline isn't you being directed to kill people. That's clearly what it is.

Edited October 10, 2015 by DudeinFlames

[Jorander]

He was talking about Anakin's mindset. His thoughts. The way he was thinking. He was giving insight into Anakin's mind. Anakin felt the dark side was stronger. So to him the logical choice if he wasn't strong enough to save Padme and the ones he loved was to go to the dark side.

 

That's not what he actually says though. What he says is the quote I've provided. I mean, unless you'd like to point me to an actual quote that backs up what you're saying, and tell me where to find it.

[Rhyltran]

That's not what he actually says though. What he says is the quote I've provided. I mean, unless you'd like to point me to an actual quote that backs up what you're saying, and tell me where to find it.

 

In the commentary he's talking in regards to the scene. He's telling the audience how anakin is feeling. What anakin is thinking. What he's experiencing. That's why he gives that commentary. He's not saying what Anakin must do. It's all about in that moment. This is how Anakin feels. That his current powers. The light side. The jedi's teachings. They're not good enough.

Edited October 10, 2015 by Rhyltran

[Jorander]

log·ic

ˈläjik/Submit

noun

1.

reasoning conducted or assessed according to strict principles of validity.

 

So what I did here was question your reasoning. Yes that includes evidence. It is still questioning your logic.

 

Principles of validity. Do you know what that means? Do you know what basic critical reasoning is? When the concern of validity comes up in logic, it's a question specifically of whether or not an argument is structurally valid, or structurally invalid. The definition you've provided has nothing to do with evidence. The definition you've provided is all about reason. Evidence and logic are two entirely separate and different things. Evidence is empiricism and induction, logic is rationalism and deduction. Your entire beef with my argument was about the nature and quality of the source I cited, as in the evidence I provided.

 

Yeah, you may have not noticed, but Baras was more powerful than Thanaton.

 

Says you.

 

The Wrath didn't need 4/5 ghosts to combat and defeat him.

 

Wait a sec...you're saying Wrath didn't need a bunch of extra help to kill Baras, therefore Baras is more powerful than Thanaton, who took a whole bunch of extra power to kill? Huh?

 

Having a powerful Sith in your bloodline thousands of years ago won't make Nox anymore powerful than they are shown in game.

 

Baras isn't shown to be any more or less powerful than Thanaton

 

And Force-Walking isn't a measure of power.

 

The hell it isn't. Power, broadly defined, is a resource of some kind. It is the ability to influence, either the environment around you or people, through some sort of means.

 

I think you misunderstand a great deal of things.

 

Well, I don't. But I'm open to listening to a solid argument backed with some evidence.

 

For starters, this assumes that all Jedi have the same capacity and affinity for either side of the Force. They don't

 

What do you mean by this? Explain in detail, and in plain English, what you mean by "affinity for the Force," please.

 

Beings like the ancient Sith were naturally attenuated towards the Dark Side

 

Everyone is naturally attuned to the dark side, because the dark side is natural.

 

They will find it easier to master and use it.

 

Yeah, Yoda covered this in TESB. The dark side is indeed the easier path.

 

A random Jedi will not have so easy a time mastering or handling the corruption the Dark Side brings.

 

What is this corruption you speak of, that you claim the dark side brings?

 

This doesn't even go into the fact that Mortis exists

 

You talking about the prophecy or the place?

 

and that what the Jedi believe has no bearing on the facts presented about the Force.

 

This is true of everyone. What a person "believes" is immaterial next to the reality. That said, if you think the Jedi have some mistaken ideas, I'm all ears as to what you think those mistaken beliefs are, and why you think they're mistakes.

 

Uh, no. But I'll bite. When have you ever seen someone be more powerful than a master of the Light simply because they drew on the Dark Side?

 

Yes. Palpatine in his battle against Yoda. Darth Bane in his battle against...any Jedi he ever fought, including a master.

 

Take DE for example, Luke is clearly less powerful than Sidious the entire time he's drawing on the Dark Side, and he's obviously drawing on the Dark Side given his eye color.

 

DE?

 

Then for some odd reason, when Leia brings him back to the Light, he's able to overpower Palpatine, and she's not amping him, she's specifically stated to only be clearing his mind.

 

I'm slow to trust EU writers' abilities to stay true to what is established in the movies, for what I would think are obvious reasons.

 

All evidence points to the Dark Side being a quicker source of power, not a stronger one.

 

Right, that's why Sidious was able to best Yoda, because he had easier access to power...not because he had access to more power. Look at what happened in the RotS novelization, if we're going to bring books into it. Yoda realized that war itself had become the weapon of the dark side, and even the mere act of fighting was an aid to his enemy's power.

 

No, it was because on a cosmic scale, the Dark Side was becoming more powerful than the Light. More specifically, in the EU at least, Plagueis and Sidious tipped the balance in the Dark Side's favor after months of rituals.

 

According to Lucas it was because of the "evil deeds of the Sith" that the cosmic balance shifted, not because of some series of rituals.

 

No it's not. From the second you leave Korriban, it's always someone telling you about some ritual or another to gain more power. This includes your ancestral relics, Tulak Hord's rituals, a super weapon, four Force Ghosts, plus a bonus fifth, and an army that's just given to you. It's like saying the Wrath's entire storyline isn't you being directed to kill people. That's clearly what it is.

 

Uh huh. Clearly...

 

The only reason you even know about it is because someone else found it first. That's basically the Inquisitor's entire storyline.

 

There's certainly nothing else to that story about overcoming odds through strength of will, rising from the ashes, Faustian deals for power (dark side through and through) no, the entire storyline must clearly be about other people finding stuff and you therefore learning about it. Every heroic journey has something like that. It's called a guide. Luke's guide was Obi-Wan Kenobi. He says hi.

 

In the commentary he's talking in regards to the scene. He's telling the audience how anakin is feeling. What anakin is thinking. What he's experiencing. That's why he gives that commentary. He's not saying what Anakin must do. It's all about in that moment. This is how Anakin feels. That his current powers. The light side. The jedi's teachings. They're not good enough.

 

Okay. If you really think that is what Lucas is saying, show me the quote. Show me the quote, tell me where to find it, so I can judge for myself.

Edited October 10, 2015 by Jorander

[Rhyltran]

"He studied the ancient ruins on the Sith mausoleum world of Korriban. He unlocked secrets of the Force from a captured Jedi Holocron. The dark side energies flowing through Palpatine's body were so intense, that they ravaged his mortal frame. The very source of Palpatine's strength was killing him.

 

To counter the dark side's consumption, Palpatine turned to a bizarre combination of technology and Sith magic. Palpatine used Spaarti cloning cylinders to create a store of younger bodies, and employed an ancient Sith technique to transfer his consciousness into a waiting clone. Thus, Palpatine could avoid death indefinitely -- as long as his supply of clones remained intact. He would change his form again and again, prolonging his life. Palpatine constructed a secret throne-world deep within the galaxy's core, on a shadowy world called Byss. Here, he kept his clones safe, protected by a loyal cadre of Dark Side Adepts. "

 

The dark side corrupts you. It's shown in the clone wars. Remember Dark Side Ashoka? Look at what it did to her appearance. Did you see how it affected maris brood? What about Darth Vader? (Remember his face wasn't burned.) How about Anakin's eyes changing color? Jacen Solo's? What about in universe lore about how Darth Marr has become so ravaged by the dark side that he's essentially terminally ill? What about the references in the bane novels? How about Darth Zash? We have seen in so many different media that the dark side corrupts you. The dark side might be a natural force but drawing on it isn't natural.

 

Also read tales of the Jedi and other old republic sources. The Sith species ARE more in tune with the dark side naturally. It's stated even in the Old Republic encyclopedia and the star wars encyclopedias were endorsed by Lucas.

 

Show you where to find it? It's the commentary. I quoted the commentary you posted. In the commentary he was commenting on the scene. That's what commentary is. Everyone here knows the dark side has a corrupting effect. We even see it in the clone wars. The dark side's corrupting influence is CANON. I've never ever met anyone who debated it's corrupting effect.

 

http://2.bp.blogspot.com/_i_mHP3u5W9E/TUzh6zpJeYI/AAAAAAAAAJY/mfwJKcjxREY/s1600/Altar37.jpg

 

Here's a picture of Ahsoka taken by the dark side.

 

http://wookiee.ru/wp-content/uploads/2013/12/09001548.jpg

 

Visible veins. Discoloration in her lips. A more haggard appearance. She looks "older" than she does normally and doesn't have her normal youthful zeal.

Edited October 10, 2015 by Rhyltran

[nimmerstil]

The fact that I'm not worshiping Nox doesn't mean I don't appreciate the story. That's a bunch of nonsense.

 

Really? When you say, "That's basically the Inquisitor's entire storyline.", you are saying you don't appreciatie the story.

[Jorander]

"He studied the ancient ruins on the Sith mausoleum world of Korriban. He unlocked secrets of the Force from a captured Jedi Holocron. The dark side energies flowing through Palpatine's body were so intense, that they ravaged his mortal frame. The very source of Palpatine's strength was killing him.

 

To counter the dark side's consumption, Palpatine turned to a bizarre combination of technology and Sith magic. Palpatine used Spaarti cloning cylinders to create a store of younger bodies, and employed an ancient Sith technique to transfer his consciousness into a waiting clone. Thus, Palpatine could avoid death indefinitely -- as long as his supply of clones remained intact. He would change his form again and again, prolonging his life. Palpatine constructed a secret throne-world deep within the galaxy's core, on a shadowy world called Byss. Here, he kept his clones safe, protected by a loyal cadre of Dark Side Adepts. "

 

The dark side corrupts you. It's shown in the clone wars. Remember Dark Side Ashoka? Look at what it did to her appearance. Did you see how it affected maris brood? What about Darth Vader? (Remember his face wasn't burned.) How about Anakin's eyes changing color? Jacen Solo's? What about in universe lore about how Darth Marr has become so ravaged by the dark side that he's essentially terminally ill? What about the references in the bane novels? How about Darth Zash? We have seen in so many different media that the dark side corrupts you. The dark side might be a natural force but drawing on it isn't natural.

 

Also read tales of the Jedi and other old republic sources. The Sith species ARE more in tune with the dark side naturally. It's stated even in the Old Republic encyclopedia and the star wars encyclopedias were endorsed by Lucas.

 

Show you where to find it? It's the commentary. I quoted the commentary you posted. In the commentary he was commenting on the scene. That's what commentary is. Everyone here knows the dark side has a corrupting effect. We even see it in the clone wars. The dark side's corrupting influence is CANON. I've never ever met anyone who debated it's corrupting effect.

 

http://2.bp.blogspot.com/_i_mHP3u5W9E/TUzh6zpJeYI/AAAAAAAAAJY/mfwJKcjxREY/s1600/Altar37.jpg

 

Here's a picture of Ahsoka taken by the dark side.

 

http://wookiee.ru/wp-content/uploads/2013/12/09001548.jpg

 

Visible veins. Discoloration in her lips. A more haggard appearance. She looks "older" than she does normally and doesn't have her normal youthful zeal.

 

All I'm going to say about this post is that Lucas himself has said that he is aware of Palpatine running around doing stuff in the EU, and that in his vision of Star Wars, that did not happen and Palpatine was slain forever at the hands of Anakin Skywalker. Well, that and I think we should keep this particular discussion confined to the other thread so as to avoid having to repeat ourselves.

 

Okay, two other things; everything about that planet was exaggerated, thrown into stark contrast. The metaphorical and the literal crossed frequently. It is an extreme outlier that I don't think makes a good representative example of what we commonly see in the movies and the portions of the EU that remain consistent with the movies.

Edited October 10, 2015 by Jorander

[Rhyltran]

All I'm going to say about this post is that Lucas himself has said that he is aware of Palpatine running around doing stuff in the EU, and that in his vision of Star Wars, that did not happen and Palpatine was slain forever at the hands of Anakin Skywalker. Well, that and I think we should keep this particular discussion confined to the other thread so as to avoid having to repeat ourselves.

 

Okay, two other things; everything about that planet was exaggerated, thrown into stark contrast. The metaphorical and the literal crossed frequently. It is an extreme outlier that I don't think makes a good representative example of what we commonly see in the movies and the portions of the EU that remain consistent with the movies.

 

Ah, but we have such examples as Morraband in Disney Canon. You claim it was exaggerated but it wasn't. There were clear visions. There were clearly things that were going on. We've been told in the clone wars there are places that are very dark side. We see evidence. It's not an extreme outlier. We saw what happened in regards to the ones. We saw the effect the Dark Side has on Ahsoka (I even showed you a picture.) You can claim the "Dark Side planet" example was metaphorical but that wasn't what was shown. As you mentioned "The literal crossed frequently." that's because it was actually happening.

 

The clone wars are G-Canon. Lucas had his hand in it completely. What will it take for you to accept that your vision is wrong? This is where you're biased. The evidence is against you but you take the little bits you can and use it to support your idea. Anything that doesn't mesh is "bad writing. Doesn't line up with the movies. Etc." So I show you a G-Canon example. Your response? Extreme Outlier. I give you quotes on corruption. You deny them. I show you an impossibility such as someone's eye color changing to yellow (a common trait among sith.) you throw your hands in the air and claim it's not proof. I give you an example of Ahsoka's corruption? It's ignored entirely.

 

You also ignore that there were multiple planets considered to be heavily influenced in the dark side. Dathomir is considered a dark side planet that's dark side influence has a strong effect on the inhabitants, fauna, and creatures that live there. In fact this is precisely why Mother Talzin is considered stronger there. Read the Sons of Dathomir comics. Also Disney Canon.

 

Heck, you deny this game's in game lore because it doesn't jive with your vision and you're currently playing it.

 

The Dark Side corrupts you. Period.

 

"Planets of the dark side" and "places of the dark side." and "This place is heavily influenced by the dark side." are thrown around a lot in the series.

Edited October 10, 2015 by Rhyltran

[SithKoriandr]

So really the debate needs to come down to first agreeing on what canon you're going to accept and how much that canon you're going to accept, because obviously, it sounds like people don't want to accept what George said as canon, but then don't want to accept some of the lousier written books (which there are plenty...seriously, sometimes it's just obvious the writer is trying to one up everyone on the power scale).

[hansumlazurwolf]

Right, real quick, on DS corruption:

 

Physical changes caused by Dark Side usage such as darkened veins or sulfurous eyes come from two sources: being nasty and too much weird magic sh*t.

 

In the case of the former, one should notice that the majority of physical changes correspond with the character's personality, mood, and actions. Anakin's eyes change color temporarily as he's in a really bad place emotionally and mentally, but they change back later. The same effect can be seen in the KotFE trailer: Arcann becomes enraged and gets evil eyes, but then they change back after he harms his brother. Tyranus was a Sith Lord who used the Dark Side, but he displayed no DS Corruption at all. Highly negative emotion and attitude take their toll.

 

The second route might be better described as too much direct exposure to Dark Side energies, such as through rituals and the like. It's like how if you spend too much time around highly radioactive material your hair falls out and you start coughing up blood. For examples of DS Corruption in this manner, see Zash and Marr.

 

And maybe Palpatine. If I remember correctly, there's some ambiguity as to how getting his own evil-beams shot back through him affected him. One camp says it directly melted his face half off and all that stuff. Another claims that Palpatine's body was already physically corrupt, but getting his own DS lightning channeled back through him shattered a Glamour he used to hide it and prevented him from being able to cast another. So where his alterations actually came from affects the method of acquisition.

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Okay, sorry, just felt that should be cleared up. Sorry.

 

So anyway, who do y'all think would win in a fight? Nox or the Hero of Tython?

[Aeneas_Falco]

So really the debate needs to come down to first agreeing on what canon you're going to accept and how much that canon you're going to accept, because obviously, it sounds like people don't want to accept what George said as canon, but then don't want to accept some of the lousier written books (which there are plenty...seriously, sometimes it's just obvious the writer is trying to one up everyone on the power scale).

 

Part of the problem is that even before being nuked, a lot of the information in the EU was contradictory. Lucas also occasionally contradicted himself or introduced retcons.

 

Star Wars lore and what is or isn't canon (or more canon..the fans had to resort to levels!) has always been something of a hot mess.

[Saelinne]

The main problem with these threads....or more specifically Nox (and JC I suppose) is that....who is Nox? Do we go only by the ingame movies and have a force user who is nothing special with a lightsaber but is immune to the force? Or do we go and combine the advanced classes and have some...I don't know....complate beast that apart from being very good at lightsaber combat have disgusting amount of force and abilty to heal him/herself at will? Hell throw in some amount of regeneration since we are looking at ingame abilities....

....one....a bit off topic question: Why do you consider the HoT (and the Wrath) some ungodly combatants with the lightsaber? Is it because they are average (or above average) force users and thus have to be masters in some other area? And yes I consider them above average when it comes to having force powers ( the only point afaik when the HoT shows his/her force powers is an optional quest at the very beginning....apart from that he/she kept using their lightsaber to open doors etc).

 

And finally to the person who said that Nox is the only one who needs force ghosts to overcome his/her final adversary. and therefore is weak...

....ummm no....First you have to keep in mind the circumstances. Nox was the only one of our force users who had to battle/survive against one of the most powerful force users in the Empire at such an early stage...which is not true ofcourse (the DC is not made of the most powerful only), but I doubt if she/he knew that at the point of time since everyone praise the power of the Dark Council. And failing to kill him with just one ghost she/he consumes another and everything went to...well...bad from there:) There is also the point about her/his (ugh why didn't I just pick a gender.../sigh) inexperience (and I doubt the Korriban academy really taught her anything....she is not only a former slave but possibly an alien too...they most likely just threw her to the wolves to die...and Zash wasn't much better at actual training)...but let's ignore that

Edited October 12, 2015 by Saelinne