Why aren`t women Siths referred as "lady"?

[hansumlazurwolf]

Yeah, probably. Human beings aren't good at handling sudden significant change, poor dears. A sudden flip would likely take pretty much everyone by surprise, and in time some people (could be most, could be few I dunno) would get used to it. Part of the reaction would probably be due to forcing gender on people.

 

Noun X has a given definition

Noun Y is Noun X when Noun X is a woman.

 

Noun Y is the actual problem as it's what adds gender to the equation.

[BrianDavion]

In the current use of English, Lady is the female equivalent of Gentleman most of the time.

Since there is no more nobility, the title "lord" have lost all its usefullness in most English speaking countries.

You only hear it in a historical or a fictional context. Even the president is a sir, not "Lord Obama" or "Lord Bush" . .

 

 

awww, you Americans are soo cute! think you're the only country in the world

[SithKoriandr]

awww, you Americans are soo cute! think you're the only country in the world

 

Awww, you're sooo cute! You think America is the only English speaking country in the world

[Jorander]

For the same reason that a female martial art master isn't referred to as a martial art mistress.

[Analyst]

Forgive me for bringing a relatively old topic up, but I was always interested in this very question.

I am not sure that the situation with "Lord" is akin to military ranks. If the history of GFFA armies resembles Earth one, then it was mono-gender from the beginning and when the rank structure was formed. So there was no need to separate genders - only one gender comprised the military*. Later the situation changed, but the tradition had been already formed.

Sith, however, are different. It is hard for me to see the possibility of gender inequality among Sith, at least because it is difficult to say "you're just a weak woman" when said woman can kill you with lightning strike or fry with actual lightning. After all, the Force strength never depended on being male or female.

In-universe I presume that the old Sith language had a specific word for high-ranking Force users, and it was clearly gender-neutral. But when the Sith were introduced to the Galaxy and acquired Basic, this difference was lost in translation, and mistranslated with "Lord" only.

 

*I am speaking about humans and Near-Humans, of course. Species with some different gender system are hard to judge.

 

How many women flipped out when the Asari in Mass Effect hit on their female Shepards? None that I can recall. Now how many men flipped out when Anders made a flirtatious comment to their male Hawke?

That is a bit different, I think. From the very beginning Asari were stated as female-like species, for whom partner's gender didn't matter, so it was expected. Anders's bisexuality, however, was almost nowhere to be seen in Awakening, and the only mechanical example could be easily attributed to a glitch (if it wasn't a glitch).

[SithKoriandr]

That is a bit different, I think. From the very beginning Asari were stated as female-like species, for whom partner's gender didn't matter, so it was expected. Anders's bisexuality, however, was almost nowhere to be seen in Awakening, and the only mechanical example could be easily attributed to a glitch (if it wasn't a glitch).

 

I live in a relatively small town now and grew up in a big city, I can tell you with certainy women can and have flipped out being hit on by other women. Those who play games are no exception. The difference here is, that while gamers are now more 50/50 in terms of gender and playing games, the genders are not equal in which games they play, ME was not played equally among the genders. Even according to ME most played Male Shaepard with a small amount of players choosing to play FemShep.

 

It just seems more equal when one reads forums because you get a lot of posters saying it, or the same ones repeating it over and over.

[Setta]

I haven't read all the posts, nor do I care too. However aren't woman of higher rank in the military addressed as sir as well? I'm fairly positive that's the case. Thus this would be no different.

[Analyst]

I live in a relatively small town now and grew up in a big city, I can tell you with certainy women can and have flipped out being hit on by other women.

Well, I didn't watch certain statistics, being not quite interested in them, so I just answered to a specific statement)

 

I haven't read all the posts, nor do I care too. However aren't woman of higher rank in the military addressed as sir as well? I'm fairly positive that's the case. Thus this would be no different.

As I have just said above, there is a great difference between Sith/any Force-user organization and military.

[DarthDymond]

I haven't read all the posts, nor do I care too. However aren't woman of higher rank in the military addressed as sir as well? I'm fairly positive that's the case. Thus this would be no different.

In the US military, at least, proper decorum is to refer to a woman as "ma'am" - can't speak to the standard conventions for other languages / nations, though.

 

I've seen some shows and movies that call female officers "sir" but that's either poor research, artistic license, or possibly just world-building if it's set in a fictional military organization.

[Archanubis]

I've seen some shows and movies that call female officers "sir" but that's either poor research, artistic license, or possibly just world-building if it's set in a fictional military organization.

 

To be honest, Star Trek's the only show I've seen this done with, likely due to Gene's views regarding "everyone's equal" future. Kirk even calls Saavik (a female Vulcan) "mister" in The Wrath of Khan, I believe. Why Gene and his people decided to go with a masculine "title" (for lack of a better description) for members of different genders, I don't know.

[SithKoriandr]

I haven't read all the posts, nor do I care too. However aren't woman of higher rank in the military addressed as sir as well? I'm fairly positive that's the case. Thus this would be no different.

 

No. In fact, a group of women officers are refered to as ladies.

[SteveTheCynic]

No. In fact, a group of women officers are refered to as ladies.

Quite possibly, but they are individually addressed (spoken to) as "Ma'am".

[Setta]

No. In fact, a group of women officers are refered to as ladies.

 

Huh, well guess you learn something new everyday after all. Ok thanks for the heads up then.

[ZanyaCross]

Hello.

I don`t know if this has been asked before, but has anyone wondered why aren`t women, who became Sith lords or members of the Dark Council referred as "my lady" instead of "my lord"? I know that Sith Empire is patriarchal society, but it would still be nice if my main female Inquisitor would be called "lady" instead of "lord"

 

Because you are not the wife of a lord, you are the lord. The two titles are not equal, or interchangeable, and there is no good reason to gender the title a character has, especially when we're talking about another galaxy thousands of years ago.

[Lunafox]

The way I've always taken it, is that 'Lord' is a title bestowed upon a Sith who has achieved rank of Lord or better. It applies to both males and females and is to be taken as a unisex term.

 

As for 'Lady' I see it's use in the universe as well, though instead of it being a rank, it's an honorific, like you're married to someone important. Like in the case of Lady Grathan...who is married to Lord Grathan. She is Sith, but is his wife and may not have achieved 'Lord' or perhaps, she's been given a different 'Lord' name. Like Lady Grathan could also be Lord Gravea or something...but she doesn't seem to be active in the government, and so is most likely known as Lady Grathan.

 

edit: (or as I just noticed, what Zanya said. )

Edited December 9, 2015 by Lunafox

[Nefla]

Because you are not the wife of a lord, you are the lord. The two titles are not equal, or interchangeable, and there is no good reason to gender the title a character has, especially when we're talking about another galaxy thousands of years ago.

Well, in the real world "lord" and "sir" are already gendered and they're both male. A lady also isn't necessarily the wife of a lord, she's just a female noble and a lord is a male noble. There are already unisex titles like acolyte, padawan, initiate, darth, etc...I don't see why they couldn't have either made up a new ungendered title for that rank or used the female equivalent (lady) for women.

 

I don't understand why the female version of something is always seen as lesser and the male version greater. What if all troopers of both genders were called "ma'am" and all sith of both genders called "lady?"(guys would flip their ****) You could say that those terms are unisex in the Star Wars universe but people would still have that association like many still have the male association for the male terms. A woman being called sir or lord is supposedly elevating, a man being called ma'am or lady is supposedly insulting and degrading. (Hell, even a woman being called by female terms is supposedly degrading to some people)

[SithKoriandr]

Well, in the real world "lord" and "sir" are already gendered and they're both male. A lady also isn't necessarily the wife of a lord, she's just a female noble and a lord is a male noble. There are already unisex titles like acolyte, padawan, initiate, darth, etc...I don't see why they couldn't have either made up a new ungendered title for that rank or used the female equivalent (lady) for women.

 

I don't understand why the female version of something is always seen as lesser and the male version greater. What if all troopers of both genders were called "ma'am" and all sith of both genders called "lady?"(guys would flip their ****) You could say that those terms are unisex in the Star Wars universe but people would still have that association like many still have the male association for the male terms. A woman being called sir or lord is supposedly elevating, a man being called ma'am or lady is supposedly insulting and degrading. (Hell, even a woman being called by female terms is supposedly degrading to some people)

 

Was it you who said that exact same thing before, that people would flip? I really don't think they would, because they would have came into the setting knowing that's how it is. If it was that much of a matter, they then wouldn't have played the game to begin with, because they knew they'd be called maam and lady as a unisex title

 

So the real question is, why are people who come into this setting flipping when coming in you know Lord is a unisex title? This is Star Wars, not European nobility.

[DarthDymond]

So the real question is, why are people who come into this setting flipping when coming in you know Lord is a unisex title? This is Star Wars, not European nobility.

This may very well be the first time most of them have encountered it in Star Wars lore, I would suspect.

 

Luminya was the "Dark Lady of the Sith", none of the movies had female Sith for the topic to even come up, and not everyone would have read the Darth Bane novels (and even if they did, I don't know if Darth Zannah was ever referred to as "Lord Zannah"). Unless it came up explicitly with the Lost Tribe in the Fate of the Jedi novels, I think SWTOR may be the first time "Lord" being a gender neutral title was codified in the Star Wars lore. It certainly wasn't super-prevalent.

Edited December 13, 2015 by DarthDymond

[SithKoriandr]

This may very well be the first time most of them have encountered it in Star Wars lore, I would suspect.

 

Luminya was the "Dark Lady of the Sith", none of the movies had female Sith for the topic to even come up, and not everyone would have read the Darth Bane novels (and even if they did, I don't know if Darth Zannah was ever referred to as "Lord Zannah"). Unless it came up explicitly with the Lost Tribe in the Fate of the Jedi novels, I think SWTOR may be the first time "Lord" being a gender neutral title was codified in the Star Wars lore. It certainly wasn't super-prevalent.

 

They do have female Jedi who are referred to as Master and not Mistress though.

[ZanyaCross]

Well, in the real world "lord" and "sir" are already gendered and they're both male.

 

No longer. The Queen of England bares the title "Lord of Mann" now, along with women who are "Lord-Mayors" of major cities in Europe and Australia, so if you want to drag real life into the discussion, the precedent is already set.

 

Also, the word "lord" comes from the old Germanic word (hlāfweard) for "bread-warden". Since my Old Germanic is a bit rusty, I can't say whether it was specifically gendered, but it's probably a safe bet it's only seen as gendered because up until recently it was never applied to women.

 

A lady also isn't necessarily the wife of a lord, she's just a female noble and a lord is a male noble.

 

While history is chock full of exceptions to the rule, that is mostly not true for the same reason the First Lady doesn't have the same authority as the president. If he falls ill she doesn't take over running the country, though we may just end up getting one elected, and if she is, her title will be "President Clinton", not "First Lady Clinton".

 

There are already unisex titles like acolyte, padawan, initiate, darth, etc...I don't see why they couldn't have either made up a new ungendered title for that rank or used the female equivalent (lady) for women.

 

You'll have to take that up with Lucas. He's the one who had Palps refer to Vader as "Lord Vader", and his position as a "Dark Lord of the Sith".

[Nefla]

No longer. The Queen of England bares the title "Lord of Mann" now, along with women who are "Lord-Mayors" of major cities in Europe and Australia, so if you want to drag real life into the discussion, the precedent is already set.

 

Also, the word "lord" comes from the old Germanic word (hlāfweard) for "bread-warden". Since my Old Germanic is a bit rusty, I can't say whether it was specifically gendered, but it's probably a safe bet it's only seen as gendered because up until recently it was never applied to women.

 

 

 

While history is chock full of exceptions to the rule, that is mostly not true for the same reason the First Lady doesn't have the same authority as the president. If he falls ill she doesn't take over running the country, though we may just end up getting one elected, and if she is, her title will be "President Clinton", not "First Lady Clinton".

 

 

 

You'll have to take that up with Lucas. He's the one who had Palps refer to Vader as "Lord Vader", and his position as a "Dark Lord of the Sith".

...I now want to be called "bread-warden."

[Canareth]

No longer. The Queen of England bares the title "Lord of Mann" now, along with women who are "Lord-Mayors" of major cities in Europe and Australia, so if you want to drag real life into the discussion, the precedent is already set.

 

Also, the word "lord" comes from the old Germanic word (hlāfweard) for "bread-warden". Since my Old Germanic is a bit rusty, I can't say whether it was specifically gendered, but it's probably a safe bet it's only seen as gendered because up until recently it was never applied to women.

 

 

Good point here.

 

One can easily rationalize that Star Wars does not have the same feudal background, especially with Force users. The feudal origins of Lords all came down to fighting prowess. Natural physical strength is almost meaningless for Sith in the Sith Empire.