Max_Killjoy Posted October 1, 2015 Share Posted October 1, 2015 (edited) That doesn't really apply when the topic of a discussion / argument / debate is whether some change to a piece of popular entertainment is a 'good' change or not - Argumentum ad Populum comes into play when there is an objective truth being debated. If you're talking about Global Warming, then you're talking about something that objectively either is or is not happening, in that situation, the issue of how widespread the belief or disbelief in it is doesn't prove anything about that objective truth. But with entertainment media, there is no truly objective measure of whether a change is good or bad - instead the closest we get to an objective measure... is how popular it is. His argument was "it's just a small group of people, so they're automatically wrong, and we can ignore them". Maybe that's not precisely ad Populum, but it has to be some sort of logical fallacy. As it applies to entertainment media... let us recall that Jersey Shore had massive ratings for a while... Edited October 1, 2015 by Max_Killjoy Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sarrkoth Posted October 1, 2015 Share Posted October 1, 2015 I love this change. Now I can play with my friends and not having to find a character at their level on my character list. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Max_Killjoy Posted October 1, 2015 Share Posted October 1, 2015 I love this change. Now I can play with my friends and not having to find a character at their level on my character list. That's one of the things that would make it a great feature... if it were optional. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RaiderMid Posted October 1, 2015 Share Posted October 1, 2015 I love this change. Now I can play with my friends and not having to find a character at their level on my character list. It's going to help guilds as well. I can't recall how many times I've seen guildies leveling up looking for people to run with and I couldn't do it because I didn't want to screw up their xp gains. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ZavienUK Posted October 1, 2015 Share Posted October 1, 2015 (edited) or maybe the engine would have trouble making it optional with quest rewards? We don't know the reason why it is not, They might have other plans? The point is, it is not and not, and that is that. I believe there is a more sinister reason they are forcing this on us. They know the story content with the expansion won't keep people occupied for long enough, so they are relying on reusing old content. As somebody posted on reddit: "Long story short, they just want you to spend as much time as possible in the old planets, rerunning old content, especially considering the old heroics will play an exceptionally heavy role into the NEW Alliance system. It's the difference between facerolling content and spending twenty to thirty minutes in any given planet, and spending up to one hour instead, minimum." They are forcing this on us to give the illusion of content, making it all relevant. I for one don't care for this, I'm happy to rotate through a few games, I never complain about lack of content, I don't need content artificially lengthening. I like the system, I like that it makes everything relevant, I like that I can do any content etc etc. What I don't like is that it is forced. I don't like my levels being taken away (it's a level based RPG!), I don't like losing power and I don't like that unrelated activities will be made more tedious and less fun. People are posting here because they hope Bioware will take note of the concern and reconsider. Edited October 1, 2015 by ZavienUK Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sarrkoth Posted October 1, 2015 Share Posted October 1, 2015 I had no idea there were this many people who liked to hang around on old planets and 1 shot greys all day. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
EllieAnne Posted October 1, 2015 Share Posted October 1, 2015 I had no idea there were this many people who liked to hang around on old planets and 1 shot greys all day. I do because I want to go back and get the "Kill 250 sand people" achievement. But I guess that's the wrong way to play and have fun because other people don't want to do that. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
deserttfoxx Posted October 1, 2015 Share Posted October 1, 2015 Exactly, this change is for the good. I think people are saying it should be optional.. like the mentor/sidekick system in city of heroes. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ZavienUK Posted October 1, 2015 Share Posted October 1, 2015 I love this change. Now I can play with my friends and not having to find a character at their level on my character list. And I would love it too if it were optional. This is one of the (many) advantages. Forcing it on all people at all times is the problem here, not the system itself. Most games implement something like this as an optional 'buddy' system, and it's rightly welcomed. But forcing on people not playing with friends, doing unrelated activities, all of the time is the problem. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ZavienUK Posted October 1, 2015 Share Posted October 1, 2015 It's going to help guilds as well. I can't recall how many times I've seen guildies leveling up looking for people to run with and I couldn't do it because I didn't want to screw up their xp gains. Once again, optional. The benefit you described is available, without the drawbacks. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Deyjarl Posted October 1, 2015 Share Posted October 1, 2015 Lots of people DON'T WANT THIS. And your support for this claim is what? The forums? It isn't even that hot of a topic here. It hasn't even come close to some of the more hot topics that have come up here. I don't care either way, but it is absolutely ridiculous for anyone to claim any quantity of the player base for or against this. Any claims like that are absolute conjecture. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kiesu Posted October 1, 2015 Share Posted October 1, 2015 (edited) I do because I want to go back and get the "Kill 250 sand people" achievement. But I guess that's the wrong way to play and have fun because other people don't want to do that. If "kill 3k bormus on balmorra" achievement is so important that you must kill an entire lvsystem to get the achievement, then good riddance remove the mobkill achievements completely says I. Edited October 1, 2015 by Kiesu Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Deyjarl Posted October 1, 2015 Share Posted October 1, 2015 Seriously considering unsubbing right now. No, no you are't. I doubt any of the players threatening this are. Until you show a screen of your cancellation it is just hot air. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mon-El Posted October 1, 2015 Share Posted October 1, 2015 Yes! we must save the pixel ecosystem Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Deyjarl Posted October 1, 2015 Share Posted October 1, 2015 True. what's the point of levels then ? For playing higher level content. #facepalm Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ZavienUK Posted October 1, 2015 Share Posted October 1, 2015 (edited) I think people are saying it should be optional.. like the mentor/sidekick system in city of heroes. If it wasn't obvious over 50 pages, yes optional is what people are asking for. Nobody is saying they don't want this system at all (because it does offer a lot of advantages), but making it optional makes is a win for both sides of the debate. As I said earlier it's a real shame the way this was announced. If it has been announced as optional it would have been applauded as a great way to make all content relevant and play with friends and guildies. It's the forced nature than has overshadowed the announcement, as well as the other GREAT things they are doing in the expansion. Edited October 1, 2015 by ZavienUK Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Deyjarl Posted October 1, 2015 Share Posted October 1, 2015 I do because I want to go back and get the "Kill 250 sand people" achievement. As if it is difficult to do that on level. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rhyltran Posted October 1, 2015 Share Posted October 1, 2015 Im guessing neighter of you read my previous reasoning on the PVP subject. I shall not repeat it as it seemed to go on deaf ears. Again, I much prefer this approach of players meeting as equals on the planets. It is what I hoped originally from world pvp, and am quite happy with the change and will defend it You seem incredibly casual. Sometimes pvp isn't fair. Sometimes numbers aren't fair. Back in the day I destroyed a group of 40 players on Illum while only using 15 players through clever use of game mechanics and strategy. Typically I don't play SWTOR for pvp. The games I do play have full loot kills. What this means is if you die they can loot everything you own and everything on your corpse. If you only want even level pvp fights why not stick to battle grounds and arenas? That's what they're for. Sometimes the thrill is being jumped by a much higher level player and winning or using more than one player and taking them down. Another is rallying the server to your aid. If you're not into that why on earth would you join a pvp server? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Deyjarl Posted October 1, 2015 Share Posted October 1, 2015 (edited) . Sometimes the thrill is being jumped by a much higher level player and winning Right, lets shoot for the percent of a percent crowd and cater to that. Sounds more like someone who likes to go back as a higher level to PvP lowers and looking for excuses for it. See I'd rather fight someone that has a chance against me. Edited October 1, 2015 by Deyjarl Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Karkais Posted October 1, 2015 Share Posted October 1, 2015 (edited) This is pretty big, even if Bioware doesn't realize it. Large majority of mmo players (I'd say 'most') are, more than anything else, looking for that "feeling of überness" you get when you are max-level with good gear. They aren't looking for challenge, fun teaming, or any other logical goal. They want to feel that they are better than others. It's not easy to explain why, because the reason lies within human nature. This change smacks those people in the face with a wet fish. Sure the change makes sense in a certain way, but unfortunately thinking that you can convince the players to think that the change is good in the abstract, is like trying to explain to kids why they should eat certain bad-tasting food cause its healthy for them. I estimate that Bioware will lose more subscribers over this change than anything else they have done in the past. Especially among the player group who normally don't write to forums to make their voices heard. I could be wrong but I don't think I am.. Myself, I wish I could dig up my old posts from years ago where I recommend level-less approach and sandbox mmos as the only possible design for mmos of the future. I find it exceedingly ironic that Bioware makes these changes that are effectively changes toward that kind of design, while bending over backwards to make it appear that it still has all same old design cliches that it has always had. Maybe in a decade or two mmos will finally arrive at the destination. ps. And no, I am not behind this change. The level sync means that levels in SWTOR are a bad joke. The whole level system is bonkers, and exists mainly to gate certain content behind other content. The feeling of progression will be gone, or supposedly turns more fully into gear progression. The inevitable question is then: what do we need levels for? Edited October 1, 2015 by Karkais Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rhyltran Posted October 1, 2015 Share Posted October 1, 2015 Right, lets shoot for the percent of a percent crowd and cater to that. Sounds more like someone who likes to go back as a higher level to PvP lowers and looking for excuses for it. See I'd rather fight someone that has a chance against me. Nope. I really do like fighting the odds against me but then again as mentioned, I don't pvp in SWTOR anymore. I play games where you can take people's stuff and they can take your stuff. More risk. That being said if you want even fights why aren't you in battegrounds/arenas? They're designed for it and if the down bolster still makes you as powerful as everyone is talking about how is it a fair fight anyway? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ZavienUK Posted October 1, 2015 Share Posted October 1, 2015 (edited) I had no idea there were this many people who liked to hang around on old planets and 1 shot greys all day. They don't, but when they do go back to old planets (lots of reasons inc achievements, datacrons, rp etc) they don't want it to be tedious . Edited October 1, 2015 by ZavienUK Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kiesu Posted October 1, 2015 Share Posted October 1, 2015 You seem incredibly casual. Sometimes pvp isn't fair. Sometimes numbers aren't fair. Back in the day I destroyed a group of 40 players on Illum while only using 15 players through clever use of game mechanics and strategy. Typically I don't play SWTOR for pvp. The games I do play have full loot kills. What this means is if you die they can loot everything you own and everything on your corpse. If you only want even level pvp fights why not stick to battle grounds and arenas? That's what they're for. Sometimes the thrill is being jumped by a much higher level player and winning or using more than one player and taking them down. Another is rallying the server to your aid. If you're not into that why on earth would you join a pvp server? Excuse me if I'm used to rolling pvp games that dont encourage over-lvled camping and even give people achievement for killing peeps 30lv bellow them haha You can flex your muscles all you want, I remember said pvp too and attended original Ilum pvp, as long as it lasted anyway. Good time. However, that was en equal ground, as it should have been. I dont see why so many people defend lowbie killing, unless thats the only way you get any kills done Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ZavienUK Posted October 1, 2015 Share Posted October 1, 2015 For playing higher level content. #facepalm So why not go the whole hog and level sync in both directions. I don't want this, but the way they have gone with this, they may as well do. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
deltadt Posted October 1, 2015 Share Posted October 1, 2015 You forgot about dailies? You forget about finishing up content you never did. Getting aggro from everything is irritating. Getting knocked off your mount is even more irritating. But, this system is not the problem, it's nice for those that want it/use it. IT BEING FORCED UPON US, is the real problem. seeker droid and macrobinos ending missions come to mind for me. still need to finish them off Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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