Strike fix: Advanced Capacitor (bigger buff to Damage OR Range OR Accuracy)

[Nemarus]

The Strike thread had many people suggesting some kind of permanent buff to Strike Accuracy/Range/Damage in order to significantly increase their threat profile. But there wasn't agreement on which of those stats is the best to buff. Also, some people don't like the idea of a buff being applied directly to a chassis.

 

Well, this morning it struck me (and forgive me if this has been suggested before), why not just make an Advanced Capacitor that only Strikes get? After all, they all get normal Capacitors now--just swap that out for an Advanced Capacitor.

 

The Advanced Capacitor, like the normal Capacitor, would let you choose ONE of three primary weapon buffs. Exact numbers can be debated, but let's start with:

 

+50% Damage (+20% base, +30/40/50% upgrades)

+50% Accuracy (+20% base, +30/40/50% upgrades)

+30% Range (+15% base, +20/25/30% upgrades)

 

The Damage buff is significant, and lets a Strike pose more of a burst-damage threat, even in close combat under a satellite. This makes them useful against just about anyone, if they can close distance -- which means stopping Strikes from closing is actually critical, instead of "I'll get to that Strike when I'm bored".

 

The Accuracy bonus makes the Strike a stronger anti-Scout platform, and if used widely, could sway the meta away from Evasion. Also, I'd start this off as the default selection for a new Strike -- the starting 20% would let new pilots essentially ignore passive Evasion, which will give them a better initial impression.

 

The Range bonus allows a Strike to really own its mid-range role and exert pressure and threat from a distance. It also allows better synergy between HLC's and torpedoes. The stretching of Range also supplies a secondary buff to Damage and Accuracy--but neither is as significant as the bonuses provided by the dedicated Damage or Accuracy choice.

 

Depending on your choice of Advanced Capacitor, you can tune your Strike as you want. Close-range bruiser, Scout hunter, or long-range artillery. And since your opponents would not immediately know which one you chose, you'd have the threat potential all three--meaning each Strike would have more battlefield influence. Regardless of your choice, your primary weapons (even Rapids!) become menacing. Strike HLC is best HLC. Strike Quad is best Quad.

 

The best part is that it's dead-simple to implement. Just make a new minor component and only give it to Strikes. Swap out their normal Capacitor for an Advanced Capacitor. No change in UI infrastructure or mechanics needed.

 

Some may wonder why the Advanced Capacitor doesn't have a Frequency option. It could, I suppose, but I'm not sure anyone would take that instead of one of the above options, so I omitted it.

Edited April 20, 2016 by Nemarus

[caederon]

That seems like a pretty decent idea. The numbers would have to be tuned but it's simpler to implement (one would presume) than adding a whole different component class to strikes. Though couldn't you just bake those stat increases right into the strike frame instead? I guess that would subvert your 'tuning' idea a bit. It sort of feels like we're looking for solutions based mostly on the premise that the devs are going to have roughly five minutes on a lunch break to implement the Strike Fighter Resuscitation Program that they solicited six hundred text-wall posts of suggestions for.

 

It also doesn't do (as) much to help the woeful T2 strike since it does nothing to improve missiles. I suppose you could make a new Magazine type for that... it might be stretching the definition of what the lore based logistics of magazines are to make a Quick Lock magazine that reduces lock times (after all the replenishment of ammunition isn't really part of the lock-on process). I guess that could also be included in the Quell's base stats somehow.

 

At least your idea would cut down on the inevitable thought "Oh good, they have a bunch of guys in strikes" that inevitably pops into the head of people who have been around a bit when surveying the opposition.

 

Despon

Edited September 22, 2015 by caederon

[Nemarus]

 

It also doesn't do (as) much to help the woeful T2 strike since it does nothing to improve missiles. I suppose you could make a new Magazine type for that... it might be stretching the definition of what the lore based logistics of magazines are to make a Quick Lock magazine that reduces lock times (after all the replenishment of ammunition isn't really part of the lock-on process). I guess that could also be included in the Quell's base stats somehow.

 

Despon

 

Honestly, I think trying to fix missiles is too difficult a problem to solve given current limited dev attention. As long as missile breaks are as plentiful as they are, any buff to missiles would have to be fairly complex to design, implement, and balance.

 

I agree that the Advanced Capacitor would buff the T2 the least of the three Strikes, but I still think people would choose to fly the T2 in an Advanced Capacitor world.

 

If we assume that the Advanced Capacitor is cool enough that it makes someone decide, "I want to fly a Strike," then the Quell does offer desirable, unique combinations of other components that the T1 and T3 don't have--even ignoring the double missiles. Only the Quell can combine Charged Plating, Deflection Armor, and Thrusters. Only the Quell can combine Light Laser Cannons (which could be fearsome with any of the Advanced Capacitors) and Cluster Missiles (with Concussion Missiles as a bonus).

 

Sure, you wouldn't see as many T2's as T1's or T3's, but you wouldn't be able to dismiss a T2 you saw coming toward your satellite.

Edited September 22, 2015 by Nemarus

[Gavin_Kelvar]

It also doesn't do (as) much to help the woeful T2 strike since it does nothing to improve missiles. I suppose you could make a new Magazine type for that... it might be stretching the definition of what the lore based logistics of magazines are to make a Quick Lock magazine that reduces lock times (after all the replenishment of ammunition isn't really part of the lock-on process). I guess that could also be included in the Quell's base stats somehow.

 

I like that idea, although I'm not sure how it would play out for the T3 strikes. Maybe make a sensor component that mirrors many of the upgrades? That might have the benefit of making the component useful on many/most of the ships that have them since the original concept seems to have fallen through. T1 scouts and GS would still probably find dampening and/or range useful. But I feel that on bombers, T3 strike/scout, and possibly T2 GS as well the sensor is more of a dead weight component. Having a new sensor option that increases lock-on speed and another that increases firing arc might be helpful.

 

Since only the T3 strike gets sensors it wouldn't amount to any strike model having more than 2 components that buff their weapons. While the T2 GS would have all 3 if you made some of those components strike specific it wouldn't be a problem I think (and if you gave it to the T2 GS I'm not sure it'd be a bad thing since that ship needs lots of help too, and I don't think the T2 GS becoming prominent in the meta is something strikes would mind since it'd mean less ion rail).

 

I know that the T3 is most commonly known as the "support strike" but I really think there needs to be a design change thinking of it as a heavy strike with support utilities that are secondary to it's main mission.

[NeverEvar]

Even if it is a desired fix, it does not help the primary weakness of strikes which is, Ion railgun

 

You can add dmg ability all you want (and with this ion/quad combo would be a scout eater) But one ion rail and strike is a sitting duck

[RickDagles]

Even if it is a desired fix, it does not help the primary weakness of strikes which is, Ion railgun

 

You can add dmg ability all you want (and with this ion/quad combo would be a scout eater) But one ion rail and strike is a sitting duck

 

 

What's wrong with that though? Every ship needs a counter. Strikes with 9000m range HLC would still be pretty threatening to gunships. They'd be great at taking out targets with low hull health. I do think they'd probably still be pretty useless in TDM games where gunships are stacked. But they'd be very important in Dom games where a more diverse ship composition is needed.

 

 

Cool idea.

[RickDagles]

Honestly, I think trying to fix missiles is too difficult a problem to solve given current limited dev attention. As long as missile breaks are as plentiful as they are, any buff to missiles would have to be fairly complex to design, implement, and balance.

 

I agree that the Advanced Capacitor would buff the T2 the least of the three Strikes, but I still think people would choose to fly the T2 in an Advanced Capacitor world.

 

If we assume that the Advanced Capacitor is cool enough that it makes someone decide, "I want to fly a Strike," then the Quell does offer desirable, unique combinations of other components that the T1 and T3 don't have--even ignoring the double missiles. Only the Quell can combine Charged Plating, Deflection Armor, and Thrusters. Only the Quell can combine Light Laser Cannons (which could be fearsome with any of the Advanced Capacitors) and Cluster Missiles (with Concussion Missiles as a bonus).

 

Sure, you wouldn't see as many T2's as T1's or T3's, but you wouldn't be able to dismiss a T2 you saw coming toward your Saturday.

 

Yep I agree, fixing missile would require huge chances to the core of the game's balance an would ultimately end up making the game more unbalanced. There a few fundamental issues involving missiles;

 

1. Scouts need DF missile break in order to counter the bomber/gs ball. They need the evasion to counter railguns and they need the missile break to counter seeker mines. Scouts are arguably already a bit underpowered here.

 

2. Powerdive and DF are 2 of the 3 counters to ion railgun. If you nerf those, Ion railgun becomes even more powerful. It is arguably already a bit overtuned.

 

3. Gunships need either DF break or powerdive to counter cluster missile spam.

 

4. Since T1 an T2 Strike only have one 15 or 20 second missile break (i.e. No powerdive or DF), they will actually be most prone to any buffs that affect missiles. Meanwhile, scouts and gunships will be relatively unaffected because they will keep using their powerdive and DF breaks. Condor pilots may switch from feedback or directionals and opt for DF. Scout pilots may switch out of barrel roll/retro and opt for powerdive.

 

 

There's just no way to make missiles relevant against anything but bombers and strikes. I suppose it may be worthwhile to give them more of an advantage against bombers though.

Edited September 22, 2015 by RickDagles

[Drakkolich]

I like the idea of being able to pick your own buff to strikes fighters.

 

But what if we just kicked up your idea a notch Nemarus.

 

What if Strikes had Advanced version of all the Current Minor components.

 

Examples just throwing wild numbers out

 

Advanced Thrusters:

Advanced Speed Thrusters: +40% speed

Advanced Power Thrusters: +60% engine power

Advanced Turning Thrusters: +25% turning

Advanced Regeneration Thrusters: +35% More Engine Regeneration

 

Advanced Magazine:

Advanced Regeneration Extender: +40% weapon regeneration

Advanced Power pool extender: +60% weapon power pool

Advanced Munitions capacity extender: +50% ammo and -30% Lock on and reload time

 

 

Anyways you get the idea just advanced versions of every minor component in the current slots they hold them.

 

This would let Strikes essentially be good at everything but only what you choose for them to be good at.

I really like the idea of 2 ridiculously powerful Starguards out there but they are both super specialised at different things.

 

Very cool idea Nemarus.

[SWCNT]

It's a really solid suggestion, I like advanced components vs. buffing the chassis for the reasons mentioned above by others. It would give the ship more unique roles, or as Drako suggested let the user pick the role(s).

[RAZIM]

Strikes need some different components that shift their gameplay drastically but can balance out with the rest of their kit. A way to specialize their multi-role nature.

 

Some random examples:

 

Advanced Dogfighting Missile Subsystem

- Decreased missile lock-on time

- Decreased missile range

- Moderate secondary weapon targeting area

- Reduced power requirements > engine regen boosted by %

 

Starhound Long-range Missile Targeting System

- Standard lock-on time

- Max range for standard missiles: 15k

- Narrow secondary weapon targeting area (reducing its ability to be used against highly mobile targets)

- Increased power requirements > engine and weapon pool decreased by %

 

Advanced Shielded Power Subsystem

- Increased primary weapon pool

- Heavy weapon/engine power drain protection

- Increased secondary reload time

 

Sliced Weapon-Shield subsystems

- Increased primary weapon damage

- Increased primary weapon range %

- Increased primary weapon power draw %

- Blasters will consume shield power after weapon power is depleted

Edited September 22, 2015 by RAZIM

[Gavin_Kelvar]

I like the idea of being able to pick your own buff to strikes fighters.

 

But what if we just kicked up your idea a notch Nemarus.

 

What if Strikes had Advanced version of all the Current Minor components.

 

Examples just throwing wild numbers out

 

Advanced Thrusters:

Advanced Speed Thrusters: +40% speed

Advanced Power Thrusters: +60% engine power

Advanced Turning Thrusters: +25% turning

Advanced Regeneration Thrusters: +35% More Engine Regeneration

 

Advanced Magazine:

Advanced Regeneration Extender: +40% weapon regeneration

Advanced Power pool extender: +60% weapon power pool

Advanced Munitions capacity extender: +50% ammo and -30% Lock on and reload time

 

 

Anyways you get the idea just advanced versions of every minor component in the current slots they hold them.

 

This would let Strikes essentially be good at everything but only what you choose for them to be good at.

I really like the idea of 2 ridiculously powerful Starguards out there but they are both super specialised at different things.

 

Very cool idea Nemarus.

 

That's a very nifty idea except for one problem: the T3 strike would basically go unbuffed when it comes to mobility. "Support" strike I don't think any strike should go unbuffed in mobility since that's such a glaring weakness to the entire chassis. So I think there are some areas that just need a straight buff to the base stats, but I like your idea overall (especially if the T3 replaced the fairly useless sensor with thrusters).

[tunewalker]

I like the idea of being able to pick your own buff to strikes fighters.

 

But what if we just kicked up your idea a notch Nemarus.

 

What if Strikes had Advanced version of all the Current Minor components.

 

Examples just throwing wild numbers out

 

Advanced Thrusters:

Advanced Speed Thrusters: +40% speed

Advanced Power Thrusters: +60% engine power

Advanced Turning Thrusters: +25% turning

Advanced Regeneration Thrusters: +35% More Engine Regeneration

 

Advanced Magazine:

Advanced Regeneration Extender: +40% weapon regeneration

Advanced Power pool extender: +60% weapon power pool

Advanced Munitions capacity extender: +50% ammo and -30% Lock on and reload time

 

 

Anyways you get the idea just advanced versions of every minor component in the current slots they hold them.

 

This would let Strikes essentially be good at everything but only what you choose for them to be good at.

I really like the idea of 2 ridiculously powerful Starguards out there but they are both super specialised at different things.

 

Very cool idea Nemarus.

 

I like a lot of these ideas, but obviously some of it would need work by the dev team.

For example weapon regen and power pools, no one really needs more energy then we get from those already so the only way those would work is if you added in some sort of damage component to them along side the regen we already get like you did for the Munitions Capacitor.

Further nem's example complete gets rid of Frequency capacitor for strike fights, something people actually like, so maybe the accuracy would roll into that one?

 

Finally my little tiny issue with this is new pilots. If we do the like 50% damage capacitor the first thing would be like 20% and then 10% per upgrade, these minor's would litterally be pound for pound the most cost efficient things in the game. Now maybe this is a good thing as it gets new pilots into the game faster, but I am worried that it means the only ship these new players will fly is the strike and then we will have even harder issues with them understanding how the other ships work and how to counter them. Also harder for them to understand when switching that minors arent as strong on them as it is on the strikes.

 

My proposed solution to this is on Strikes these super minors would have a "tier 4" or just have their Tier 3 cost 10 k and split off into 2 branches like the shield and the engine major components. Which allow us to have even greater diversity.

 

So maybe the Super Damage capacity would start at 10% damage, then get 5% per upgrade for the first 2 upgrades (20% damage) and then the "tier 3" choice would be between 30% damage or 20% crit chance.

 

With the munitions you get the ammo from it and then the Tier 3 choice is between lock times vs Reload times.

 

So on and so forth adding even further diversity to this idea while also making it clear to new players that these minor components are special to the strike and that you should focus on the Major's for the other ships.

 

 

 

Edit: Gavin I think you are forgetting that the T3 strike is the only one with BOTH a reactor and a Armor Minor component and with those being brought to "super" levels as well you would have a ship that is ALMOST in the meta for its tankyness... get even TANKIER. And also that it is the only one with a Sensor component.. so something cool like "Super Dampening sensors" Decrease accuracy of all nearby enemies by 10%, or "Super Comm Sensors" Increase accuracy of all allies by 5%. All of which just adds to its already support "command strike fighter" nature.

Edited September 22, 2015 by tunewalker

[Nemarus]

You guys sure know how to take a minimalist, narrowly scoped and targeted buff and blow it up into a grand new system that will never be implemented.

 

Not every Strike needs its own, custom Advanced X minor component.

 

They all have a Capacitor. They all have primary weapons. Buffing their primary weapons will buff them all, and they will still each retain unique combinations of components that make them worth flying.

 

Just because the T2 Strike has two missiles doesn't mean missiles have to be its thing. Just because the T3 Strike can heal doesn't mean healing has to be its thing. They are ALL Strike Fighters, so they should ALL have awesome primary weapons--which is why buffing their Capacitor slot is a simple, elegant, cheap solution--one that can be implemented largely through XML edits.

 

Yes, Strike mobility is still an issue--but if you buff their primary weapons enough, that balances out. After all, Bombers have even worse mobility, but they still have a role through the strength of their deployables. Gunships have worse mobility, but they still have a role because of the strength of their railguns.

 

If you make Strike primary weapons similarly and uniquely strong, then that strength justifies the fact that their mobility is inferior to a Scout's.

 

Then we'd live in a world where each ship is defined by a unique strength:

 

Scouts = Mobility and cooldowns

Gunships = Railguns

Bombers = Deployables

Strikes = exceptional primary weapons

 

Meanwhile, various ships of all four types have access to missiles as well as unique combinations of System, Shield, and Engine components. These choices add texture and nuance, but they do not define the four roles.

 

Keep it simple!

Edited September 23, 2015 by Nemarus

[tunewalker]

You guys sure know how to take a minimalist, narrowly scoped and targeted buff and blow it up into a grand new system that will never be implemented.

 

Not every Strike needs its own, custom Advanced X minor component.

 

They all have a Capacitor. They all have primary weapons. Buffing their primary weapons will buff them all, and they will still each retain unique combinations of components that make them worth flying.

 

Just because the T2 Strike has two missiles doesn't mean missiles have to be its thing. Just because the T3 Strike can heal doesn't mean healing has to be its thing. They are ALL Strike Fighters, so they should ALL have awesome primary weapons--which is why buffing their Capacitor slot is a simple, elegant, cheap solution--one that can be implemented largely through XML edits.

 

Yes, Strike mobility is still an issue--but if you buff their primary weapons enough, that balances out. After all, Bombers have even worse mobility, but they still have a role through the strength of their deployables. Gunships have worse mobility, but they still have a role because of the strength of their railguns.

 

If you make Strike primary weapons similarly and uniquely strong, then that strength justifies the fact that their mobility is inferior to a Scout's.

 

Then we'd live in a world where each ship is defined by a unique strength:

 

Scouts = Mobility and cooldowns

Gunships = Railguns

Bombers = Deployables

Strikes = exceptional primary weapons

 

Meanwhile, various ships of all four types have access to missiles as well as unique combinations of System, Shield, and Engine components. These choices add texture and nuance, but they do not define the four roles.

 

Keep it simple!

 

Honostly I think the reason we were saying extra stuff, is I dont think "exceptional primary weapons" is the role that comes to mind when we think "strike fighter" but that's just my personal thoughts on the matter.

[Ramalina]

Just because the T2 Strike has two missiles doesn't mean missiles have to be its thing. Just because the T3 Strike can heal doesn't mean healing has to be its thing. They are ALL Strike Fighters, so they should ALL have awesome primary weapons--which is why buffing their Capacitor slot is a simple, elegant, cheap solution--one that can be implemented largely through XML edits.

 

Ah, I see. Sort of like how railguns don't have to be a gunship's thing, systems abilities a scout's thing, or deployables a bomber's thing, right?

 

I suppose it's ok to turn primaries into the "strike thing." They're already the thing for T1 strikes. Secondaries as a thing for the T2 have proved to be a disaster, and while systems as a thing has just about worked for the T3 it's not like you're proposing taking that away, so the T3 would get 2 things.

 

 

Drako's suggestion just involves editing a few more values than yours does. It might take more time to figure out what changes to implement, but actually implementing them would just take a few more minutes of typing and checking for typos and proper formatting.

 

Tune's idea is basically to turn strike minors into Major minors, which would involve a Hangar UI rebuild for strikes and probably opportunities to break some things, but mostly implementation would still be changing values plus a bit of cut and paste.

 

I also very much doubt that just a capacitor, at a power level appropriate for the T1 and T3 is going to be enough help for the T2.

 

I also wonder if maybe we're being a bit too pessimistic in terms of what we can expect in terms of strike changes. If it were just a matter of changing existing passive values you'd think that someone could have gotten that done months ago during a lunch break or two, or an afternoon or two for an intern.

 

At this point I'm sort of hoping that the extremely long wait on this is because they're thinking they want to get the team together and do some serious work under the hood. Strike fixes plus comprehensive bug-squash? We can dream right? Of course if they're planning on doing a lot in some sort of super short GSF development blitz then we should get some exciting new bugs out of it even if they manage to quash the old ones.

[ALaggyGrunt]

For making strikes generalists, one quick-and-dirty solution double the effects of the secondary components. Recalibrate the turbo reactor so it can only drop shield regeneration delay by 50% when mastered, so it becomes insta-regen on strikes which take it.

 

T1 and T2 get crazy endurance boosts from regen thruster components, or maybe turning boost.

All three strikes get significantly deadlier guns.

T1 gets a lot better shields.

T2 gets a lot better armor.

T3 becomes a lot harder to kill in general, and becomes the sensor specialist.

[Linuxizer]

The Advanced Capacitor, like the normal Capacitor, would let you choose ONE of three primary weapon buffs. Exact numbers can be debated, but let's start with:

 

+50% Damage

+20% Accuracy

+30% Range

 

 

I think this is a great idea and it is simple, effective and sufficient. +30% Range is a little low though. For example:

 

HLC + 50% Damage

993 or 1071 dps at 6300m with 101% accuracy, shield piercing, armor piercing

1059 or 1143 dps at 3150m with 106% accuracy, shield piercing, armor piercing

 

QLC + 30% Range

887 or 752 dps at 6750m with 91% accuracy

1096 or 929 dps at 4050m with 101% accuracy

 

RFL + 50% Damage

1221 or 1034 dps at 4000m with 81% accuracy, low tracking penalty, low power consumption

 

QLC + Range is not a compelling choice over HLC + Damage (though still better than RFL ). Let's raise the Range to +40%.

Edited September 24, 2015 by Linuxizer

[Gavin_Kelvar]

T3 becomes a lot harder to kill in general, and becomes the sensor specialist.

 

I don't mind that, but you really need to make sensors worth having on the strike chassis to begin with. Range is the only one that is useful on the chassis, and that's of marginal benefit at best. The devs really need to add some new sensor components for that to really be worth it since right now it feels like a dead weight component that's just there to keep it at a lower offensive level compared to the other strikes. Which I think has overall harmed the T3 by preventing it from reaching it's full potential by denying it tools like HLC to become the best strike variant for bomber killing (among other potential offensive builds).

[havokhead]

These are some good ideas,I like the advanced capacitors for strikes. It would solve a lot of offensive problems but it doesn't solve the biggest issue (imo) which is defenses. Most ace/veteran flyers can do alright offensively in a strike but they are still rarely played by those same people because they can't survive being focused (T3 being the exception).

 

The primary weapon capacitor buff would give strikes much needed teeth for sure, hellz, it might even make RFLs viable 🙀. But strikes need some kind of defensive buff too, a quick fix would be to add power dive to the T1&2s.

[Ardaneb]

Nemarus, this is just a great suggestion. The 30% range and 50% damage boosts seem about right to me.

 

I don't think anyone would take 20% accuracy. 35% +5% +5% +5% accuracy might be worth taking. Plus, if you put 35% accuracy on the starting strike, it will help the new players overcome the tracking penalty.

 

Having said that, if it is that much harder to code accuracy, then just make it 70% firing frequency. Then everything is the same as the current component except for the input constants. The strikes really need a buff and an advanced capacitor might just push the type 1 strike into the top tier of the meta.

[Nemarus]

Curious what Verain thinks, now that I see he is still lurking about

[Verain]

I would just prefer they take that stuff and glue it to the chassis. If they did allow a supercap that would be fine, but it would be rough to tune properly. With what you listed, you'd have to pick damage (and it might be too good). If you instead had some buffs baked in, then you'd always get to use them (ex: if you baseline had +20% range and +10% accuracy), and then a normal capacitor would still let you make normal choices.

 

Also you'd want frequency in there.

 

 

Like many ideas, I'd love it if they would do it, though. It definitely would be cool to have a strike with a satisfying power. If they balanced it, then having 3-4 choices like "extreme range", "extreme accuracy", "very good blaster damage", "very good frequency increase" would be great because you could pick the type of weapon you'd like to put on your strike. I just think that it would end up being "strike fighter takes $CORRECT CHOICE". Right now the cap is actually a choice, one of the few components that really nails it.

[Lavaar]

This may be nitpicking over a relatively minor issue, but allowing the selection of one MINOR component to basically define the entire ship may confuse newer players. Minor components shouldn't be the defining component on a build, and some people may not even consider it a priority to upgrade it. Additionally, which capacitor would be selected by default?

 

For the record, it is a solid idea, just bringing up some other issues that haven't been brought up yet.