Rhyltran Posted September 28, 2015 Share Posted September 28, 2015 They might be on Master Sith/Master Jedi level, but we are talking here for normal Masters, if they are to face someone like the Emperor himself they definitely will not have chance by themselves... the Emperor is beyond any overpowered character at least that the vibe I got from the twitch. Also if they are to face Yoda, I don't think they will manage on their own, but if Lana and Marr are there, well this is entirely different case. Exactly. That's the point I was making. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RJMazz Posted September 28, 2015 Share Posted September 28, 2015 (edited) Force users are undoubtly more powerful than non-force users, but if you backstab them or shoot them with slugs or blow them up or poison them or hit them with a sleep dart then stab their hearts or... You know. They die all the same. To make up for the lack of power, it takes a non force user wits. Or... Very powerful punches and a shotgun in the case of a Scrapper Scoundrel. Very, very powerful, 12k dmg hitting punches. Edited September 28, 2015 by RJMazz Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rhyltran Posted September 28, 2015 Share Posted September 28, 2015 (edited) Force users are undoubtly more powerful than non-force users, but if you backstab them or shoot them with slugs or blow them up or poison them or hit them with a sleep dart then stab their hearts or... You know. They die all the same. To make up for the lack of power, it takes a non force user wits. Or... Very powerful punches and a shotgun in the case of a Scrapper Scoundrel. Very, very powerful, 12k dmg hitting punches. The most powerful force users can sense danger long before it happens and receive visions of what can happen. They can also sense the presence of nearby people/things without needing to meditate. So backstabbing won't happen. They'll know you're there before it will occur. Slugs can be blocked with a lightsaber. They'll just melt instead of being deflected. Poisoning them suffers the same problem as backstabbing. Sleep dart can be deflected. Damage is game mechanics so won't comment on that. Also force users are physically stronger than non force sensitives. We have such examples as tearing through durasteel, crushing holocrons with their own hands, picking up people twice their size and chucking them with little difficulty.. But you acknowledge in your first post that you're aware they're more power. Just pointing some things out. HK-47 was really well adept at getting sneak attacks in against Jedi and using underhanded methods to win. His methods "fell apart" when fighting against things such as vitiate. Edited September 28, 2015 by Rhyltran Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wolfninjajedi Posted September 29, 2015 Share Posted September 29, 2015 (edited) The most powerful force users can sense danger long before it happens and receive visions of what can happen. They can also sense the presence of nearby people/things without needing to meditate. ? Uh...that's standard to every Jedi, not just the most powerful. Sensing things/danger is something every Jedi knows, it's a basic ability they all have, not limited to the most powerful of them. Edited September 29, 2015 by Wolfninjajedi Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rhyltran Posted September 29, 2015 Share Posted September 29, 2015 ? Uh...that's standard to every Jedi, not just the most powerful. Sensing things/danger is something every Jedi knows, it's a basic ability they all have, not limited to the most powerful of them. It is but the more powerful the quicker and more accurate they sense. There's been jedi caught in ambushes, Jedi who have been jumped, and Jedi who have been assassinated. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wolfninjajedi Posted September 29, 2015 Share Posted September 29, 2015 It is but the more powerful the quicker and more accurate they sense. There's been jedi caught in ambushes, Jedi who have been jumped, and Jedi who have been assassinated. Which also has happened to the most powerful too so.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rhyltran Posted September 29, 2015 Share Posted September 29, 2015 Which also has happened to the most powerful too so.... No, not on the level that I'm talking about. It's the difference between the Jedi who were shot in the back during Order 66 and the Jedi who were able to sense the danger, turn, kill the clones, and escape before being shot. Also the most powerful were not caught off guard against non-force users. The closest case you have is Plagueis except the assassins that targeted him, while not Jedi or Sith, knew how to cloak their presence in the force so they were force sensitives. The times a non-force sensitive has snuck up on and managed to hit a top tier jedi without being detected.. is either zero or close to Zero. I can't re-call a single instance. If you're going to pull up Han Solo shooting Palpatine in the back that was allowed. Palpatine let him because he was going to abandon that body in an attempt to possess their unborn baby anyway. I might be missing something but I don't think so. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
flumfsushi Posted September 30, 2015 Share Posted September 30, 2015 My guess is that Valkorian is going to be an ops boss with Arcann maybe being the end boss of the single player story. And I'd imagine alot of people won't like this but I pretty much ignore what force user's do in the EU novels because the authors of them just take things to the point of sheer ridiculousness for how overpowered they make force-users. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Codedrago Posted October 4, 2015 Share Posted October 4, 2015 Because those generators that hide the old man's appearance? Won't hide him from a force user. Chapter 1 of KOTFE is a good example of this. Marr and the character (if they're a force user) recognize that Valkorion is the Emperor based on his presence. Marr states "No matter how many bodies no matter how many times you change your face we will always know you." this is a good example of just what force users are capable of. They can sense incoming danger as well as attack. There's also force moves that are much more powerful than choke and lightning. Force Kill instantly kills a target that can't block it (only force sensitives can block the attack.), force crush instantly crushes a target, Force drain can instantly drain a person of life, etc. I'm not saying non-force sensitives can't be ****** what I am saying, however, no matter how good you are even in the EU there's force users that you won't be able to beat. Not fairly. Not unfairly. For example a Non-Force sensitive would never in a million years stand a chance against Darth Nihilus, Luke Skywalker, etc. In fact there's Jedi/Sith who's acolades includes things like "Has solo'd an entire army at once." Tulak Horde comes to mind. If an army consisting of well over a thousand individuals attacking from different directions, different angles, using grenades, blasters, sniper rifles, etc can't bring him down a lone agent won't either. This is why even non force sensitives can team up with Marr and Lana Beniko. It allows the story to make sense. I think the presence thing is simply because Valkorian isn't bothering to hide his power and since it's pretty big the close by force users can feel it easy. Plus, the SW story on Belsavis, when Darth Ekkage is freed, she cannot sense the Warrior or any of his non-force using companions when they're hiding. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rhyltran Posted October 4, 2015 Share Posted October 4, 2015 I think the presence thing is simply because Valkorian isn't bothering to hide his power and since it's pretty big the close by force users can feel it easy. Plus, the SW story on Belsavis, when Darth Ekkage is freed, she cannot sense the Warrior or any of his non-force using companions when they're hiding. She had never met the warrior and she wasn't at full power either. It has nothing to do with Valkorian hiding his power. A force user when they meet someone know what they feel like. It's the power sense. They know what that person's personal signature if you will. This is why in the prequel movies when chasing a changeling they didn't say "She'd be impossible to catch" but "be careful she can change her appearance." even by changing her appearance she wasn't getting away from Anakin/Obi Wan. They knew who they were going after by that point. When she tries to sneak up on them what happens? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SithKoriandr Posted October 4, 2015 Share Posted October 4, 2015 In SW lore, main character force users, are all that. They beat the, all that, non force users. Now, a strong will, will keep a non force user from being easily force persuaded, and all non force user classes are strong willed. Though mmo story and balance is going to make things difficult to keep in line with that. We have four classes told about just how powerful they are, and the cutscenes have shown it, at least for most, if not the class story, but then it comes down to group content, where all of a sudden the one who beat the emperor's voice, who should be more powerful than Malgus, has to have a team to defeat him Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hansumlazurwolf Posted October 10, 2015 Share Posted October 10, 2015 A few thoughts on different points brought up throughout the thread --------------------------------------- The Force is always described as being quasi-sentient. And it seeks balance. In the end, everything evens out. Light and Dark, Chaos and Order, etc. To (somewhat ironically) quote Vitiate in making this point: "A day, a year, a millenium, it matters not." It may take a great deal of time, but eventually, the Force will balance out Vitiate's evil. How this happens remains to be seen. But the Will of the Force seems to be immutable, and so Vitiate can be stopped by whomsoever the Force makes the agent of its will. --------------------------------------- To account for the Legacy abilities, I've always sort of assumed that the non-force users are still Force-attuned, ie they don't really have an ability to consciously manipulate the Force around them, but in moments of Great Plot they can subconsciously summon the strength needed to reflexively use certain abilities. Thus all PCs have a significant connection to the Force, and so are much more likely to be caught up in the currents of Fate and overcome seemingly impossible odds. --------------------------------------- A question regarding KotFE: During the live-stream showing gameplay from chapter 3, didn't they say something about Valkorion being assassinated? Of course Vitiate won't be dead, but it seems a bit of a slap in the d*ck to tout Valkorion as the Face of the Big Bad then kill that body so early on. And he has such a nice voice, too. ----------------------------------------- The whole End of the Sith Emperor storyline could conclude similarly to LotR: by destroying something significant, like perhaps Vitiate's original body, he could be "broken," rendered essentially powerless and unable to recouperate. This ending would make sense if I'm remembering correctly that Vitiate is supposed to finally cease to be sometime around RotJ (yes this would make his end different than Sauron's in that Vitiate's essence would slowly "bleed to death" whereas Sauron was stuck at a singular level of uselessness until his restoration for the Battle of Battles at the end of days). In fact, a non Jedi/Sith can be just as likely to achieve such a goal as a Force-user; it simply makes the protagonist less like a Classical Hero and more like Tolkien's Hero of the Common Man (though there are still classical components). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Schelos Posted October 10, 2015 Share Posted October 10, 2015 I haven't played through that section with my non force users yet, but I can say I did a double take when my Jedi started shooting force lightning at them. I'll use this to try and offer an excuse for the game. What if the lightning does not come from YOU, but from THE DEVICE? Non-Force-users also access the Force, but uncounsciously, or maybe subconsciously. Call it "Luck" (affect changes in the enviironment) if you want to, call it "Intuition" (sense stuff around you or about a situation), call it "Unexplained Survival" (control your body to somehow adapt and allow you to survive a deadly situation). Those are all things that Force-users do consciously, but can happen to anyone. I also had to wonder why my sith inq had to short circuit a light pole to make a lightning storm to stop the droid. She could have easy just done that herself. If you are dealing in energy, specifically Lightning, you have to worry not just about Amplitude/Intensity, but Frequency/Filters,and even Modulation as well. Some wavelengths will be more effective than others in a given situation. Basic example from your home : microwaves will cook stuff from within, keeping the whole stable, while longer wavelengths will burn the outer layers of your food before heating the inner stuff. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cavadus Posted October 12, 2015 Share Posted October 12, 2015 @ the OP: superior training and firepower. Nothing else is needed. My Trooper main defeated Malgus mano y mano without breaking a sweat, Malgus allegedly being the second most powerful Sith in the galaxy. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ScoutinArbiter Posted October 13, 2015 Share Posted October 13, 2015 (edited) Non-force classes work fine if you apply logic and strictly logic. Prince Arcann is a powerful and mighty forcer-user...but he can't stop a high powered slug fired half a kilometer away from an anti-material rifle. In the wise words of Master HK-47, killing these pesky force wielding meatbags require a more creative approach. Mines, sonic weaponry, poisons, corrosive acids, traps or simply a rooftop high above them. Running up to your enemies is a silly thing only Jedis (Sith too) do and apparently most of the NPCs as well. But it's Star Wars and the Force is essentially magic. So you never know what will work. Edit: Oh its helpful to imagine all your companions (including force peeps like Lana and Senya) all zerging the enemy as well. It helps makes things a bit more believable. After all even Darth Vader can't kill all the Jedi in the temple himself. Edited October 13, 2015 by ScoutinArbiter Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RJMazz Posted October 17, 2015 Share Posted October 17, 2015 So let's keep in mind we're in a time where Jedi and Sith are formed as if they were out of factories. Force studies aren't as developped as they are in the movies era, etc etc and the characters in those movies and on the times forward in the EU are much much more powerful than the vast majority of characters in this era, which balances out a bit in favor of the non-force users. Sure none of them can stand up to Valkorion. Also slugs can be blocked by sabers and they're melted, but they still go through the saber... Straight to the target's face as superheated liquid metal. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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