Listen to the hardcore players.

[Mashy]

/giggles

Sorry OP but you hardcore guys are goin the way of the Dodo. While I can understand what you are on about the fact is that only a handful of you guys make up the population in most games these days. I suggest you all get together and head on over to Eve online or EQ or Lineage. I hear that these games may suit your needs. The rest of us can then enjoy this game as it was intended. See ya's later!

[Daphnie]

Yes, because the "I do not want to follow you" reply totally means I want people to follow me.

 

There's no point in reasoning with you. You're obviously angry over a forum post.

 

Enjoy the game

[Truga]

/giggles

Sorry OP but you hardcore guys are goin the way of the Dodo. While I can understand what you are on about the fact is that only a handful of you guys make up the population in most games these days. I suggest you all get together and head on over to Eve online or EQ or Lineage. I hear that these games may suit your needs. The rest of us can then enjoy this game as it was intended. See ya's later!

 

Having played (and often still do) two of the three games you suggested, I can't help but agree with this. When I want a "hardcore" game, I'll go play one of those. :V

[SithZigg]

There's no point in reasoning with you. You're obviously angry over a forum post.

 

Enjoy the game

 

The only thing I am angry with is the attitude of the OP, thinking that he/she is a Rockstar (and should be treated like one) just because he/she did something in a video game. Me, and others, are just posting, saying, "no, no you are not." You want to worship the OP, go right on ahead.

[Wiqd]

The problem is nobody looks up to those "heroes" anymore.

 

Think about it this way. When I first started in UO in 1997 I was 18, the shiny impressed me then. I was 20 when EQ came around and it still impressed me enough to forge ahead and go for it.

 

I'm 32 now, I couldn't force myself to care about another persons achievement in a game if I really wanted to.

 

Those same people I was gaming with 14 years ago have now all grown up and while we do still play a lot we lost interest in what other people do. We have our things to worry about.

 

SW:TOR has quite a number of "older" gamers like myself, some older going off a few threads we had during beta. They don't care how "special" someone in a game thinks they are.

 

It's not a case of anyone being put on a pedestal and raised above for the masses to admire, it's a case of even if the pedestal was there the room would be damn near empty as the poser watched tumbleweed float across the room.

 

Even the younger side of the gamer world don't have that same awe we had during the early age of MMO's. They have seen the light at the end of the tunnel and no matter what anyone does now it aint going to impress them one bit.

 

I can agree with providing a "hard mode" to the Flashpoints and Operations to cater to us but loots another matter.

 

No matter which way you look at it no one will be special or admired because hardly anyone cares.

 

I think maybe using the phrase "looking up to the heroes" denotes the wrong reaction from people in this day and age.

 

Let me ask you something: How does one know to progress if not given an example of what is possible? In this day and age of loot centric MMOs, we all know that by killing the big bad bosses, we get loot which invariably makes our character stronger (and most of the time look better). It's our carrot on a stick, for now. The hardcore accept that challenge at face value and do whatever they can to achieve the goal of making their character the best. In today's games they can often even sacrifice the "fun" factor of the game, grinding through things they normally would never do just to have the edge. There's also the "spirit" of competition with others who also wish to be the best in these aspects. The end is the trophy and the journey is a conquerable obstacle.

 

The casual may also accept the challenge at face value, but may not really care when or even if they finish the challenge. If they do, it's a bonus. The journey was the trophy and the ending was the icing.

 

The bads just whine that it's too hard or takes up too much time so they want things nerfed to be able to have them. I believe if anyone has a sense of entitlement, it's the people in this category. Hardcore and casual alike (for the most part) feel a sense of accomplishment in earning their progress (albeit in different ways or timeframes). Bads are jealous and want everything in the game because they feel entitled to it and simply don't realize their 15 a month or whatever they pay doesn't entitle them to any of the loot or progression, simply access to the tools to get that loot or feel that sense of progression. It's the same notion as buying a ticket to a theme park. Once you're in, no one's going to MAKE you go on the rides and experience things. You have to do it on your own.

 

Anyway, my initial point was that in order for people to WANT to progress their character, there has to be something to compare it to; something better. In old days past, it was the people who stood around showing off shiny gear. Today it's datamined information showing models of cool gear with nice stats you want because the math works out best for you. The same phenomenon exists, just in a different format. But see it doesn't have to be the BEST armor or weapons. It can be a set of awesome social armor or a weapon that just plain looks cool. You ask where to get it from or look it up on the internet and off you go. Other times it's in comparing achievements or challenging the list of undone achievements you have to complete that list. Either way, progression is the name of the game in any MMO and right now the sense of progression is seriously flawed because loot is the ONLY way to SHOW progression.

 

Could you log into a game and never do a quest or get a piece of loot and continue to play it? I doubt it. For one you'd be paying for nothing and two you'd be completely going against what it means to play a game (though I knew quite a few people who'd log into EQ2 for awhile and just use it as a graphical chat room, so it's not unheard of).

 

Personally I'd love a game to be released that would let me be what I call "Worldcore." Make me care so much about the world and allow me to affect what happens to that world to the point where I WANT to log in, not just to use the game as a chat interface or chase some loot because I want to be in full purples and dance on mailboxes to make people jealous (which we know doesn't work), but because I have a stake in the world. Because what I do affects the world and my being there matters. Make the world feel alive and vibrant and recognize the ascension of heroes who perform the extraordinary feats that people normally don't see.

 

The problem is this type of game is generally slower in nature. Fast action combat doesn't belong here because you're not always out fighting for trash loot to vendor for spare credits. Having a stake in the world means you do what you can to make sure your village is supplied for bandit invasions, that caravans are sufficiently protected, by yourself or hired help from bandits along the road so trade happens between cities. It means keeping the areas around your village free of the many forms of crime the plague worlds. It means that when that miniscule chance of doing something great comes along, I can feel the anticipation and do my best to tackle the quest (not menial tasks we're given in today's games) with everything I have, even going so far as to bequeath belongings to my heirs in the event I don't return. It means that when I complete that quest and the bandit fortress is cleared or the dragon is slain, I stand in front of the queen or marshal or whoever with the people who helped me and our townmates, the people who helped craft our weapons, trade items to get our town as much cash as it could, gathered resources to keep our bridges from falling into the river, look up at us and are proud.

 

This is all in game, but to have a game that gets people that involved with the world so they care that much about their actions and not just by indirect story telling or cutscenes, but by actual dynamic gaming ... that's what I want to play. And I'd play it as much as I could. I work (from home, sure ), but I play as well. Gaming is my hobby and just like people who have hobbies that spend hours and hours perfecting whatever it is they do, I do the same.

 

I think in a game like that, the notion of hardcore vs casual would disappear because everything would be useful. The people who didn't have much time to play could still log in and feel like they're contributing not only to making their characters better, but making the world they play in better as well. Sure the people who played more would see more things, but is anyone really jealous of not seeing something? The casuals will make it a point to see it someday if they really want to and the bads ... well they'll just whine like they believe it will matter so it will be handed to them. In that aspect, I hope the game designers would never buckle. Some content needs to remain mysterious and unseen by the masses. Some, not all, not even most, but some.

[kasanth]

They should listen to ALL their players.

Not just the small percentage that makes up the hardcore.

[Morgris]

This is terrible logic in general. The logic falls apart when you get to the top 1%. The top 1% looks up to... well no one. So by this logic, they have no reason to play the game. Ergo, the top 2% has no reason to play the game. Whole structure crumbles, MMO fails simply because the top 1% has no one to look up to.

 

Being a semi-casual player I can understand the basis of your argument. Raiding back in WoW I always wanted to be as good as the better rogues, but never was. (I played on Dial-up, so what was I thinking.) Truth was though, I only knew these people because they were subs pulled from higher level guilds, or leaders or guilds, or members of the guild who simply had nothing better to do. If I never raided with them, I didn't know them. Ultimately I knew about 2 others better than I was. While I strived to be as good as them, my playing didn't depend on them. If any desire for improvement kept me going, it was already there before I met these people. We can strive to improve ourselves without others to show us what we need.

[VKSJG]

The people that are already 50 are the ones that will leave very soon due to boredom, and complaining that there is nothing to do. It's the same crowd in every game.

 

So true, and they never seem to learn.

[SanguineGus]

yeesh people, its simple, hard core arnt different, they just got there first. if the end game has no content, there is nothing to do but close the book and set it on the shelf, the casual players will come to the same conclusion when they get to the end too- simple.

[Rotant]

Not sure if serious or trolling.

[Amanzuul]

Meh.......they get their first and then the rest of us have to listen to them whine. Good for you that you get to level 50 so fast, the rest of us will take our time and enjoy the game..........oh........and life too.

[Scan]

It is absolutely staggering how so many posts do not address the actual point of the post.

 

Im going to copy/paste my response now as it irks me to see it.

 

************************************************************************

 

This is not about looking up to the top 1%

 

This is about EVERYONE playing the game with friends and peers they DO look up too and wish to emulate, this is wanting to achieve goals WITH those players, these players you DO wish to emulate and DO respect look up to others and so on, right up to the very top.

 

Now the question is...

 

WHO do aim the most difficult endgame content at?

 

On a scale of 1-100 WHERE do you target the difficulty level?

 

************************************************************************

 

The point of the OP is too make sure the devs aim the difficulty level of the endgame content at as high a percentage as possible, I would say the top 5-10%.

 

If you aim it at the average gamer 50% mark, then you will have half your player base bored out of their tiny brains, the upper eschelons of this percentage will jump ship fast, this will leave the best players in the game as average players.

 

Finally you will see players OUTSIDE of the game begin to ridicule players that play this game, a meme will appear, with the derogotory nature "Are you a SW:TOR player?!"

 

Only a few people it seems really understand the point im making.

 

AND IT IS NOT THAT WE SHOULD ALL WORSHIP AND LOOK UP TO HARDCORE PLAYERS!

[Roguebowdin]

It is obvious that the devs of this game and any MMO need to listen to the hardcore players.

 

Too those players already 50 and beginning some of the endgame.

 

These players win the loot and achieve the goals that the casual, poor and part-time (these are not the same player) players drive to emulate, they ride mounts and hold titles that pull the masses on to play the game.

 

Now you are going to see ALOT of responses from players saying they DONT want this, that they dont look to players that play insanely long periods, or succeed with less time played. They will say that the game does NOT need these players.

 

They are flat out wrong

 

Without the hardcore, uber players staying here neither will the casuals and masses. They say they will but if there are no top end players playing SW:TOR then it will become a bit of a joke in the mmo world.

 

Please I beg you BW, listen to those players that are already 50, already beginning endgame operations, these people KNOW what makes an MMO succeed and what will keep them playing.

 

Ultimately KEEP THE HARDCORE/Elite PLAYING = Keeping the masses playing.

 

I have to give it to you, I agree.

[Roguebowdin]

We can strive to improve ourselves without others to show us what we need.

 

So right but also so wrong. This is better debated in a philosophy class.

[darthjerro]

I am lvl 29, can play only 3-4 hours each weeknight ( more on weekends ), so im a casual these days.

If you can only play 10 or less hours a week, your not even casual, your just wasting server space trying to fill in time before you go out to dinner or something. ( seriously ,10 hours or less out of 168 hours, why even bother playing at all??)

 

I WHOLEHEARTEDLY agree with op.

 

DO NOT EVER LISTEN TO WHAT SELF PROCLAIMED CASUALS WANT.

 

They are no good for the mmo genre. Dont believe me, take a look at the sad state of affairs going on in blizzards side of the world...

Edited December 27, 2011 by darthjerro

[JuneauDaley]

Cater to the 5% of the player base or cater to the other 95% who play the game for /insert reasons.

 

Sorry but most hardcore gamers annoy me in every MMO I've played they have annoyed me.

 

Edit : To address the side point in the OP, yes I do look up to some players. But not because there hardcore or they have better gear but because there helpful. There are 2 guild members higher then me and they both have nice gear and look decent with some pretty titles and one had a faster mount. There not the reason I keep playing though as I said, They help me with crafting, when I get stuck on a mission or when I don't know something about the game.

Edited December 27, 2011 by JuneauDaley

[Scan]

Predicted the game would fail way back when...

 

Vindication feels good, but this time it's bitter sweet as i am, believe it or not a fan of this genre AND this game.

[GrandMike]

They did listen to the hardcore...unfortunately. Look where it got them.

[Nyaara]

Predicted the game would fail way back when...

 

Vindication feels good, but this time it's bitter sweet as i am, believe it or not a fan of this genre AND this game.

 

Listening the hardcores is the faster way to fail cos they NEVER NEVER are happy.

 

You´re wrong, this game failed losing tons of subs cos they released a crappy 1.0 client and they sold too much hype.

 

Period.

[Scan]

They did listen to the hardcore...unfortunately. Look where it got them.

 

NO the hardcore were posting week after to week to have MORE open world faction conflict, to RAISE the difficulty level on ops and to extend how long it takes to level to 50.

 

The game has not reflected ANY of these points, you sir are completely oblivious to its problems, as a matter of fact i would say you think the game is a success and perfectly developled.

 

The game is aimed at poorly motivated players with minimal skill requirements to complete content.

[GrandMike]

NO the hardcore were posting week after to week to have MORE open world faction conflict, to RAISE the difficulty level on ops and to extend how long it takes to level to 50.

 

The game has not reflected ANY of these points, you sir are completely oblivious to its problems, as a matter of fact i would say you think the game is a success and perfectly developled.

 

The game is aimed at poorly motivated players with minimal skill requirements to complete content.

 

The endgame is aimed at hardcores completely (its another matter do you perceive it succedeed at it or not) and has absolutely NO content for anyone else.

 

The leveling is a drag as it is, as theres no replayability whatsoever, class content is so sparse that its mindboggling, no RPG, no consequences, no anything.

 

FP qualitiy drops as you level more and more because hardcores whined all teh story will get in teh way.

 

...

 

All because of hardocres.

 

That is games problem.

 

They should done what they intended to do from the start instead listening to some hardcores, so instead 2,3m 250k would left, and good riddance it would be.

 

EQ days are looooooooooong gone, where some kid admired your shiney, people dont give a damn about hardcores any more as people want to have fun for their money.

Edited November 19, 2012 by GrandMike

[WickedDjinn]

Lol, you couldn't be more wrong. The reason WOW is the most successful MMO to date is because they copied then dumbed down a hardcore game like EQ so it would appeal to the much larger casual audience.

 

I know hardcore players think they're L33t but the reality is it's much more financially beneficial for a company not to cater to a small minority of players. And make no mistake you ARE a small minority.

 

And seriously dude, no one beyond their teen years cares about your mounts or titles. I can't even believe you wrote that.

 

Incorrect.

 

EQ was essentially an early prototype for the genre. It was the first time many online gamers got to hang out in a realistic (at the time) virtual world. It was a one of a kind experience, before the days of social networking and youtube. It was one of the very first online communities of gamers that FELT like a living, breathing community.

 

That's why EQ succeeded. Because as a game, even at the time, it wasn't particularly good. In fact many aspects of the actual gameplay were terrible from any objective point of view.

 

WoW didn't dumb down EQ's formula. It fleshed it out and brought forth it's potential. By the time Burning Crusade hit WoW had surpassed, by far, anything EQ had to offer as a game.

 

All that aside, the problem with the greater argument here is that the term hardcore has restricted while the term 'casual' has broadened. In fact 'casual gamer' is now a catagory so broad it almost doesn't mean anything.

 

Back in the day, if you were playing online games at ALL you were hardcore. Gaming as a hobby was a much smaller, tighter nit experience. Dev's listened to the hardcore gamer because they made up almost the entire player base. Now games are mainstream.

 

Swtor cannot, however, cater to the hardcore player because it is built on WoW's themepark model. WoW tries to cater to EVERYONE. That's what Swtor is going to have to pull off to find success.

 

You can't compare it to something like EvE. The reason why EvE is considered hardcore isn't because it's a difficult game, it isn't. It's because EvE requires, and indeed rewards, a long term investment in it. And by long term, we're talking years.

[ChazDoit]

They did listen to the hardcore...unfortunately. Look where it got them.

 

1 Million subscriber lost, because Bioware kept trying to appeal to the raiding crowd.

[killmaimburn]

I thought the hardcore raiders all left since the platforms in EV kept bugging out for 4 months straight? Or like how Bonethrasher used to spawn on top of you forcing your op to wipe. Oh that's right, they did. There is no hardcore raid elite group somewhere. Do you remember the guild summit they had when the game first came out. That's the last time they reached out to hard core groups. It didn't pan out.

[Scan]

1 Million subscriber lost, because Bioware kept trying to appeal to the raiding crowd.

 

ALL the hardcore players left within the first 2 months, then you had the next tier of raiders get bored, then they left, then the next month the next tier left.

 

Eventually all you had left is what you got now, fanbois, drones and poorly motivated no skill gamers.

 

HOW is it the hardcore players fault? THEY posted for months on the forums to make things harder to create more open faction conflict to focus on what WORKS in an mmo.

 

But no, instead developers listened to the casuals, gave them access to ALL content on easy mode (Nightmare mode in SWTOR is easy, what should take months to complete was done in days) Sure the poorer players took longer but even they have completed everrything within a few months.

 

You cannot blame the hardcore for what has happened to TOR, they tried to save it by posting in beta forums and early access forums that the game is too easy. All i have seen from fainbois and casuals is deluded posts like the game is awesome and nothing is wrong (something i swear the devs see and believe, even when they are sacking staff, closing/merging servers and going F2P within its first year!!). Sadly i still see the devs listening to them, if you read the beta and PTS forums they spell out plainly what needs to be done, they are screwing up F2P model and now the last hope for TOR is the SSSP, all the evidence is pointing to that being messed up too.

 

It is not the hardcore players that are at fault it is the Devs listening to farmville players wanting to be able to complete ALL content and not be buutthurt too much in BG's etc, do that and the game is a joke.

Edited November 19, 2012 by Scan