Listen to the hardcore players.

[Asherah]

Actually, I think the opposite is true. Without the "casual players" the hardcore players would leave even if the end game was good. The amount of prestige that can be gained in the end game is proportional to the size of the playerbase.

[Gazzzenn]

You are not getting the point.

 

If they do not then the top 1% walk.

 

This has consequences. The 1% below them no longer have the "role" model to look up too. Dont take that the wrong way, when I say role model I mean totally game centric, a player that you want to emulate, whether in gear, playstyle or whatever.

 

The 1% below that and so on, it has a knockdown effect. Yes some will stay and play no matter who is or isnt but these are dedicated fans of the franchise. NOT enough to keep it afloat or enough to pay for the content we all want to see.

 

oh you missed the mark by a galactic mile.

 

i was at one point in my raiding time a top player, i was going for world firsts..didn't get them but i came close, i did get many eu first hc kills in wow yay me....but seriously i didn't once look to top guilds or their players as the top 10% of players ruling out your 1% logic all play their own way they all do their own theory crafting and their own work, if that gets them the same result as the players above them then thats a totally different matter.

 

now i didn't continue raiding in that fashion for long, the time commitment was to much, but i know lots of players that raid at that level and none of them beleive the game follows them in that fashion.

 

but to add some weight to your point as there are some that clearly do follow those guilds, when i left that guild i got whispers galore from players i didn't even know asking why i'd left and so forth, it was weird and it was the reason i never went back i found it far to odd that players that you didn't even know followed your guild progress and your character to such extent.

 

i don't believe their are enough of those types of players however to think that hardcore players should be listened to anymore than a normal player.

[Scan]

As bad as this sounds to me even.

 

The OP is probably correct..

 

Most of the replies are from people that seriously do not understand the point I am making.

 

I keep seeing the same thing posted, like these people are not even reading the thread.

 

The post was aimed at the devs, who I know read this, the bulk of the player base IS the average player. They are not going to want to see resources spent satisfying the top 10%, so I'm sure they see they point im making.

 

I am NOT saying glorify the top 1% but I am saying aim all content to keep them interested.

 

If you dont they will move on, then the tier below them will and so on, until you are left with the level of player that the content DOES challenge and if that is the average ability of the average person responding here, this does not bode well for its future.

 

Just read the replies after this, I GUARENTEE THERE WILL SOMEONE POSTING SOMETHING LIKE..

 

"**** the top 1%, they are elitists and destroy communities"

 

or

 

"The OP is so far up his own *** he can see out of his own neck, sod these elitists they are just selfish".

 

I am talking about every level of gamer here, and how we all look up to players and wish to emulate others. Whether you are at the bottom OR the top. Think about WHO to aim that content difficulty at, aim it too low, say the 70% achiever and you get 30% of the player base facerolling and becoming very bored.

[Crawfishies]

Can someone tell me who actually stays with the game longer?

Casual players or hardcore raid players?

That's a question the devs would have to figure that out.

 

Wow had become back when it first started was:

To Raid or not to Raid.

Was Wow more popular before or after it's 1st expansion?

 

This game is unique that lvl'ing isn't a chore,

it can bring a console single player to this game.

But how long will that last?

Pretty soon, even players will start skipping the cut scenes.

 

The Devs will have a difficult time trying to cater both the raiders and casual players.

They don't want to pour everything into the cut scenes,

cause no one really knows how far that will take this game.

 

Let's hope in a few months it will start to pan out.

[Tsillah]

It is obvious that the devs of this game and any MMO need to listen to the hardcore players.

 

No, they don't. As you can see by the limited numbers of level 50s at the moment, the hardcore players are a small minority and therefore do not get to decide what the game will be like.

 

If they did that, 90% of the players or more will quit and they can close the game. That is the simple reality. Hardcore players always overestimate their importance and refuse to see that every MMO becomes more casual over time to cater to, yes, the majority of players. It's how it goes. Denying it doesn't change reality.

[Wrexad]

"hard core" what the h3LL percentage of the gaming community is that? Surely it is not enough to maintain an mmo open. WoW is an example of that, from 12 million dwn to 10 million. Do you HONESTLY think they give a f**k about so called "hard core"...NO. I think "hard core" gamer is just another word for LAME A** LOSER with absolutely no life. News flash, YOU DO NOT SUPPORT MMOs!! Millions of casual gamers are more valuable than a few ridiculous elitist Wannabes. Please go swallow a light saber, shiny end 1st.

 

A mad bro?

[Scan]

I read up to the part where you said "Casual, poor and part-time" and then stopped. Those who raced to 50 and are already beginning the end-game are a non-entity. They're so tiny in number that they may as well not even have a voice or the right to type on this forum. The beating heart of any MMO is the vast majority of people who will play casually and reach 50 in a month or more, depending on how much time they have to play. Those people experience the content at a good pace and don't lose interest so fast because they haven't burned through it and aren't bashing it day after day with a fervour and a zeal that would put even the first crusaders to shame.

 

Those casual gamers will keep subscribing, your so-called hardcore gamers will be burned out within a month or two and un-subscribe.

 

You have not understood the thread.

 

I am talking about all levels of player, lets say you are in the 60% bracket.

 

1% level of player is someone that logs on once a week if that.

50% player is Joe average, plays maybe 10 hours a week. At peak times.

100% level player are the guys getting world firsts.

 

You play with other players in your guild all around the same level, maybe there is one player in your guild around the 71% mark, now he is one of the leaders of guild, the guy that makes the raids enjoyable, his social skills match his ability in game. He organizes things to do and generally makes playing the game a better experience. (hence his 71% mark)

 

This is guy will be looked up too, in turn HE will look up to others, in turn those others look up to others, it is a chain of respect and probably mutual honour that feeds all the way up to the top, players with not only ability and dedication to the game but also attitude and style. Not many people look to worse players or players that disrupt enviroments as players to aspire or emulate.

 

So in conclusion, keeping the top of this chain, the top 10%, interested and hooked is the obvious thing to do, if the highest achievers get bored because endgame content is aimed at 65% ability players then they will move on, who wants to just "win" by logging in?

 

If you dumb down endgame content so the average 50% joe can do it then it means nothing at all, for example, when the first Lord <titles> appeared in game, they looked pretty cool and im betting alot of people wanted those titles, now they are everywhere, the path to getting the title "Lord" is a joke.

 

Make something easy to get and it becomes worthless.

 

Lose the highest achievers in this game and slowly watch the pack of cards come down, the game will rot from the top down, abandoned by all but the die hard fanboys.

Edited December 27, 2011 by Scan

[Katnap]

I think this whole thing is hilarious. The hardcore gamers as role models for the rest of us...riiiight.

[Scan]

I think this whole thing is hilarious. The hardcore gamers as role models for the rest of us...riiiight.

 

Seriously..?

 

You guys win, I cannot withstand this relentless wall of dumb.

 

Point made.

Edited December 27, 2011 by Scan

[Gazzzenn]

I think this whole thing is hilarious. The hardcore gamers as role models for the rest of us...riiiight.

 

yup it really is, i even considered myself at one point in that bracket...never expected a damn thing other than to play the game the best i could...a role model...oh hell no.

[Scan]

yup it really is, i even considered myself at one point in that bracket...never expected a damn thing other than to play the game the best i could...a role model...oh hell no.

 

The top 1% of players as rolemodels is NOT what this thread is about.

[alkanterah]

You have not understood the thread.

 

I am talking about all levels of player, lets say you are in the 60% bracket.

 

1% level of player is someone that logs on once a week if that.

50% player is Joe average, plays maybe 10 hours a week. At peak times.

100% level player are the guys getting world firsts.

 

You play with other players in your guild all around the same level, maybe there is one player in your guild around the 71% mark, now he is a leader of guild, the guy that makes the raids enjoyable, his social skills match his ability in game. He organizes things to do and generally makes playign the game a better experience.

 

This is guy will be looked up too, in turn HE will look up to others, in turn those others look up to others, it is a chain of respect that feeds all the way up to the top, players with not only ability and dedication to the game but also attitude and style. Not many people look to worse players or players that disrupt enviroments.

 

So in conclusion keeping the top of this chain interested and hooked is the obvious thing to do, if the highest achievers get bored because endgame content is aimed at 65% ability players then they will move on, who wants to just "win" by logging in?

 

If you dumb down endgame content so the average 50% joe can do it then it means nothing at all, for example, the first Lords appeared in game and they looked pretty cool and im betting alot of people wanted those titles, now they are everywhere, the path to getting the title Lord is a joke.

 

Make something easy to get and it becomes worthless.

 

Lose the highest achievers in this game and slowly watch the game abandoned by all but the die hard fanboys.

 

Your fundamental flaw, aside from the obvious one everyone has been pointing out, is assuming that every or even most mmo players are achievers or make that their primary play style. I think you're projecting here, you look up to achievers and assume the rest of the player base does the same, which is understandable. But your theory has been soundly busted over a good number of pages now.

[Scan]

Your fundamental flaw, aside from the obvious one everyone has been pointing out, is assuming that every or even most mmo players are achievers or make that their primary play style. I think you're projecting here, you look up to achievers and assume the rest of the player base does the same, which is understandable. But your theory has been soundly busted over a good number of pages now.

 

Agreed, finally a half decent reply.

 

I take your point this is about those that play to achieve.

 

RP'ers and social groups aside my point stands.

Edited December 27, 2011 by Scan

[Radiatonia]

Every post you make trying to "explain" your logic just makes thing worse.

 

If the people who treat raiding like it's a job leave because the content doesn't require you to sacrifice having a social life, guess what? It's not going to cause some sort of cascading series of failures that leads to the entire population leaving.

 

No, what's going to happen is that a very small portion of the community that treats the game like a job are either going to have to come to grips with the fact that they aren't getting WoW/EQ 2.0 here, and will either play something else, or adapt. Likely the latter if they're finding the story aspects and fluff content fun. Which as it is now is something the competition doesn't have.

 

A small number of people might tantrum and leave. But really, screw them. Look around the forums to see what I mean. There are people you will never satisfy, no matter what you do. They're what some folks in the business of trying to deliver a product to the largest number of people possible would refer to as "lost causes".

 

 

This isn't even getting into the fact that there are multiple avenues of progression to the MMO at the moment, and content. It's not like hardcore, wipe until we luck out into finding out a gimmick style raiding is the only way to play. This isn't WoW, where the end-game is just one thing to do, at the moment.

 

Your entire argument kind of gets nuked into oblivion when you realize that.

Edited December 27, 2011 by Radiatonia

[SaltAU]

Couldn't read your post due to it looking like vomitted cotton candy. Colors were unnecessary .

 

This. Lose the forum text colours please BioWare.

[Seraki]

So called HC players tend to ruin games. That is why every new title keeps making the same mistakes over and over and over. Regular players make up most of the subs, they tend to not complain a lot and when things get difficult to play they just pick up and leave. This is the gift of the HC player who also tend to have no loyalty to the games they leave in a mess as they move on.

 

Been playing sense EQ, beta testing many titles sense EQ2 and it never seems to change.

 

[Cameirus]

Agreed, finally a half decent reply.

 

I take your point this is about those that play to achieve.

 

RP'ers and social groups aside my point stands.

 

No it does not.

 

Its total BS.

 

 

Pathetic inadequates who judge their own self worth on the basis of their achievements in video games, yeah ok it applies to you.

 

Thankfully thats a very small minority of the gamers.

[Ecinev]

Games been out what? 2 weeks ( inluding early access), I was one of the first into my server ( chunddarr on first day of early access) , I used to be super addicted to gaming and setting these...... ' world firsts', but as much as I would like to be level 50, I have a job and a fiance now... although I still play while enjoying the story probably 40+ hours a week... so you feel that because you rushed through the content and most of you are either unemployed, skiving benefits, or skipped half the story that you shouldn't be told to wait for more of the general populace to hit 50 before they cater to your 1% of the population?

 

Please.....

[Radiatonia]

I should also point that your entire argument is still in line with the argument "hardcore" WoW raiders made whenever they thought they were getting easier instanced content that the greater playerbase would access.

 

Inevitably, they'd pull out the "meaningfulness" argument. Then ignore all the people who tell them that they don't care about instances being ridiculously hard as a form of artificial gating.

 

By the way, making an instance ridiculously difficult via gimmicks/boosting damage rates is not a "challenge", it's just gating the content to keep subs longer, instead of introducing new mechanics.

 

 

Most people don't give two craps about having to run an instance for weeks on end, or any of that. They want to log on and have fun. For some people, that means turning the game into EverRaid. For pretty much everyone else, that is the height of obnoxious game tropes. Especially when you add in all the little nuisances that come with it, like guild politics and drama.

 

 

What matters more is having more content. Not gating stuff to high levels of difficulty. Because overly hard content is meaningless to the people who don't want to bother with it, or can't afford the time. Cataclysm proved that beyond a doubt.

Edited December 27, 2011 by Radiatonia

[Maduece]

Occupy star wars, down with the 1%!

[PibbyPib]

 

These players win the loot and achieve the goals that the casual, poor and part-time (these are not the same player) players drive to emulate, they ride mounts and hold titles that pull the masses on to play the game.

 

LOL-- you've got quite an opinion of yourself, eh?

 

I can only speak for myself here, but I've never given two squirts about high level players and their (usually) silly-looking gear.

[Scan]

Every post you make trying to "explain" your logic just makes thing worse.

 

If the people who treat raiding like it's a job leave because the content doesn't require you to sacrifice having a social life, guess what? It's not going to cause some sort of cascading series of failures that leads to the entire population leaving.

 

No, what's going to happen is that very small portion of the community that treats the game like a job are either going to have to come to grips with the fact that they aren't getting WoW/EQ 2.0 here, and will either play something else, or adapt. Likely the latter if they're finding the story aspects and fluff content fun. Which as it is now is something the competition doesn't have.

 

A small number of people might tantrum and leave. But really, screw them. Look around the forums to see what I mean. There are people you will never satisfy, no matter what you do. They're what some folks in the business of trying to deliver a product to the largest number of people possible would refer to as "lost causes".

 

 

This isn't even getting into the fact that there are multiple avenues of progression to the MMO at the moment, and content. It's not like hardcore, wipe until we luck out into finding out a gimmick style raiding is the only way to play. This isn't WoW, where the end-game is just one thing to do, at the moment.

 

I beg to differ, this could not be anymore closer to WoW than any game so far.

 

Im not just talking about difficulty level in operations (raids) I would like to see freeform space combat, MUCH more difficult levelling curves, we should not be seeing the first 50 until the second month of subs imho.

 

Aiming the game at the 50-60% ability mark will leave many people bored, I know people that have one lvl 50 and another lvl 35.

 

They are telling me they will stay to see what the endgame is like, but trust me if its as easy to do as all the game has been so far its going to lose a bucket load of subs. These subs wont be the bad players or diehards or even the masses of average players, it will be the high achievers the players that lead.

 

Sure the main player base will be here for a few months, but soon the gaming world will look at SW:TOR as being a nub game, a game for people that fail at mmo's.

 

I am a SW geek, I played Ultima Online before trammel, I know mmo's.

 

I think I am banging my head against the wall, I also bet im going to see another post from someone saying, "Elitists ruin mmo communities, the OP is a snob and were better off without them."

 

/sigh

[Kirkkh]

So called HC players tend to ruin games. That is why every new title keeps making the same mistakes over and over and over. Regular players make up most of the subs, they tend to not complain a lot and when things get difficult to play they just pick up and leave. This is the gift of the HC player who also tend to have no loyalty to the games they leave in a mess as they move on.

 

Been playing sense EQ, beta testing many titles sense EQ2 and it never seems to change.

 

 

I don't think any of that is true. They're aren't like casual mmo players. Theirs just old or noob.

[zuile]

I stopped following WoW at all closely ages but I recall hearing that Cataclysm made the game harder which interestingly seems to coincide with a big drop in subs, so I would say it's probably prudent not to listen to the hardcore few. You could amusingly say that the hardcore need to lose their sense of entitlement. I personally don't care much, I just pvp and do some basic dungeon running and entry raids, don't care for months long pve gear grinds.

[PibbyPib]

You have not understood the thread.

 

 

This is guy will be looked up too, in turn HE will look up to others, in turn those others look up to others, it is a chain of respect and probably mutual honour that feeds all the way up to the top, players with not only ability and dedication to the game but also attitude and style. Not many people look to worse players or players that disrupt enviroments as players to aspire or emulate.

 

OMG this is the saddest thing I've ever read. I thought maybe you'd just overstated your case a little in the first post, but you actually seem to believe this.

 

There may be this little, I don't know... 5-10% of the playerbase that simply has no life outside of a game, who actually gives a crap about which dork gets the Sword of Righteous Virginity first-- but they are a tiny group that no one else cares about.

 

I hope they have fun-- I do. But I can't imagine how empty your life would have to be to "look up to" someone else in a frigging GAME.

 

My god, that is just so sad.