Kalfear Posted September 17, 2015 Share Posted September 17, 2015 You are correct, there was little thought put in this, and I'm very disappointed by it, but for a different reason. This is probably the only pass Conquest will get for a very long time if ever again, and by doing this and not adding and changing a lot of other things, they have basically still left it in a state that is no better than before. nope its in a state that's much worse when this goes into effect. I know PVPers who think this is idiotic and they never again expect to be in top 10 because their guilds not 500 members who all pvp/gsf Crafting was a counter to PVP/GSF (no matter what the PVPers falsely claim) Now that counter will be gone and no small or medium guilds will ever again compete for top 10 placing. This change when it goes into effect is going to hurt EA. While the amount of crafter's pushing out huge numbers might be relatively small The amount of casuals who relied on those crafter's to keep them competitive where many indeed. This change hurts those players as well and that massively out numbers the whiny PVPers/GSFer who were upset over crafting. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Heat-Wave Posted September 17, 2015 Share Posted September 17, 2015 Tonight I played several matches of GSF... in each one there was at least one person who was just flying around randomly, not even trying to take part. In one of them, THREE people were off doing nothing, just burning time... I can only imagine they were there for conquest points... What a wonderful way to have PvP and GSF completely ruined... what happens next, 2 groups end up in ranked and just stuck it quickly, then repeat over and over? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dscount Posted September 17, 2015 Share Posted September 17, 2015 Tonight I played several matches of GSF... in each one there was at least one person who was just flying around randomly, not even trying to take part. In one of them, THREE people were off doing nothing, just burning time... I can only imagine they were there for conquest points... What a wonderful way to have PvP and GSF completely ruined... what happens next, 2 groups end up in ranked and just stuck it quickly, then repeat over and over? SADLY it's likely to turn into the SWTOR version of WOW's loaded instances of BOT's doing nothing but going from point to point and random firing to avoid kick. I actually liked GSF until I kept getting matches (Conquest weeks) of non-stop tools that just didn't do anything. I mean one guy did a whole 495 points damage in one match (I can't fathom HOW he only did that much). Sure HOPE BW is going to fix this or even respond to how they will handle. Right now I'm afraid Eric has dropped the mic and letting this thread go the way of the SLOT MACHINE FIASCO thread... "Let's just ignore it and it will go away" type post. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TUXs Posted September 17, 2015 Share Posted September 17, 2015 You are correct, there was little thought put in this, and I'm very disappointed by it, but for a different reason. This is probably the only pass Conquest will get for a very long time if ever again, and by doing this and not adding and changing a lot of other things, they have basically still left it in a state that is no better than before. No ****! The worst part is, had they simply invested 15min into reading what this community could suggest, we could have given them a million idea to make Conquests far better. Conquests had so much potential...but Bioware refuses to listen... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ScarletBlaze Posted September 17, 2015 Share Posted September 17, 2015 No ****! The worst part is, had they simply invested 15min into reading what this community could suggest, we could have given them a million idea to make Conquests far better. Conquests had so much potential...but Bioware refuses to listen... On this I have to agree. Yes crafting needed changes (and I'm a master crafter) but not to the extent they did it. If it winds up being mostly pvp then that is it for me. I enjoyed the crafting and doing some of the flashpoints and the dailies but if it winds up being mostly pvp, then conquest is not for me. Have a great week. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
XiamaraSimi Posted September 17, 2015 Share Posted September 17, 2015 (edited) On this I have to agree. Yes crafting needed changes (and I'm a master crafter) but not to the extent they did it. If it winds up being mostly pvp then that is it for me. I enjoyed the crafting and doing some of the flashpoints and the dailies but if it winds up being mostly pvp, then conquest is not for me. Have a great week. Agreed, to me, tgis was just a typical ham handed bioware attempt to get people to do pvp/gsf who dont normally do either to try and quell the complaints that not enough people que for wz and gsf matches... Um sorry bioware, but neither i, or anyone else i know that crafted for conquest have any interest in pvp or gsf, so it will just end up with less people participating in conquest. Most people lost interest when they added Yavin and Rishi to the requirements for the title, then dropped the ball so attrociously badly by never having Revenge of the Revanites come up... Poorly thought out and implemented decisions seem to be sop for bioware though. Edited September 17, 2015 by XiamaraSimi Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Joesixxpack Posted September 17, 2015 Share Posted September 17, 2015 (edited) On this I have to agree. Yes crafting needed changes (and I'm a master crafter) but not to the extent they did it. If it winds up being mostly pvp then that is it for me. I enjoyed the crafting and doing some of the flashpoints and the dailies but if it winds up being mostly pvp, then conquest is not for me. Have a great week. Meanwhile, people crapping up PVP like back in the stab farming days sucks and doesn't inspire "quality" participants to participate. Lose/lose all around unfortunately. Another decent BW initiative circles down the drain because: No ****! The worst part is, had they simply invested 15min into reading what this community could suggest, we could have given them a million idea to make Conquests far better. Conquests had so much potential...but Bioware refuses to listen... Edited September 17, 2015 by Joesixxpack Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AdrianDmitruk Posted September 17, 2015 Share Posted September 17, 2015 Meanwhile, people crapping up PVP like back in the stab farming days sucks and doesn't inspire "quality" participants to participate. Lose/lose all around unfortunately. Another decent BW initiative circles down the drain because: And what's even worse? When PVPers (and yes, I am one) complained about PVErs coming in and mucking up warzones for stab farming, and Bioware removed the stab farming in response to such complaints, PVPers were left with hardly any PVP-related activities to make appreciable credits at all. Bioware sure as hell didn't replace stab farming with anything meant for those people who actually, you know, PVPed. Since PVP hardly paid the bills, we were left to either PVE (dailies), craft (or gather) and sell our product on GTN, or use CM to sell stuff on GTN if we wanted more than a small handful of credits. So we were essentially forced to either do content we didn't want, or live without. I think Bioware finally got around to buffing the credit and XP rewards for warzones a little bit around a year later. LOL. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Khevar Posted September 17, 2015 Share Posted September 17, 2015 When PVPers (and yes, I am one) complained about PVErs coming in and mucking up warzones for stab farming, and Bioware removed the stab farming in response to such complaints A bit off topic, but I am positive that complaints about PvE'ers had nothing whatsoever to do with the change of PvP gear being RE'able to end game mats. To start with, at the same time, end game PvE gear was ALSO changed to no longer return end game mats on RE. Dovetailing with the highest tier of gear becoming not craftable. Something which has persisted to this day. All three of these changes go hand-in-hand with "slow down the rate of endgame gear acquisition", not "stop PvE players from mucking up warzones" Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MeNaCe-NZ Posted September 17, 2015 Share Posted September 17, 2015 Tonight I played several matches of GSF... in each one there was at least one person who was just flying around randomly, not even trying to take part. In one of them, THREE people were off doing nothing, just burning time... I can only imagine they were there for conquest points... What a wonderful way to have PvP and GSF completely ruined... what happens next, 2 groups end up in ranked and just stuck it quickly, then repeat over and over? No next is they will start giving you 10 points for every minute you are in an operation or flashpoint and then remove the ability to kick players. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Corlan Posted September 18, 2015 Share Posted September 18, 2015 Lowering the target is not the answer. It's like saying no one is swimming in the sea because it is cold whilst watching the shark on the horizon. Lowering the target will improve your stats but it will be because people hit the target by accident now. The rewards are just not good enough to motivate people to do it. The rewards you do get you end up ploughing into the next weeks conquest. Although changing the crafting challenges might help with this. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MeNaCe-NZ Posted September 18, 2015 Share Posted September 18, 2015 This is probably one of the very few topics on a major change where almost everyone is in agreement now. That is almost everyone agrees crafting was overpowered when it comes to conquest and something needed to be changed. Almost everyone agrees this change is pretty much the worst possible change they could have done. Almost everyone agree this is now going to have possibly profound negative aspects of the game ( Ruining GSF/PVP, messing with the economy for examples ). It's surprising there hasn't been any response what so ever from Eric in light of that. Sure he can't change it but to me he and his team are supposed to be the go between for us and the devs/BW. Really feeling let down at the ignorance this time. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DirtyDiggler Posted September 18, 2015 Share Posted September 18, 2015 Conquest always seemed dumb to me. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dscount Posted September 19, 2015 Share Posted September 19, 2015 (edited) This is probably one of the very few topics on a major change where almost everyone is in agreement now. It's surprising there hasn't been any response what so ever from Eric in light of that. Really feeling let down at the ignorance this time. Totally agree with you! I'm also shocked we are going into 2nd weekend of a dropped microphone on the matter. Just seems like 3.0 dropping all over again and issues are completely ignored while folks go on vacation. I even linked this thread in another one to try and get a response. WTB Eric Musco response... willing to trade a Kai Zykken "item" of interest.... Edited September 19, 2015 by dscount Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Heat-Wave Posted September 19, 2015 Share Posted September 19, 2015 Totally agree with you! I'm also shocked we are going into 2nd weekend of a dropped microphone on the matter. Just seems like 3.0 dropping all over again and issues are completely ignored while folks go on vacation. I even linked this thread in another one to try and get a response. WTB Eric Musco response... willing to trade a Kai Zykken "item" of interest.... You're shocked? This is SOP for Bioware and Eric, they simply don't follow up with stuff and don't communicate at all with their player base. This will never be replied to again. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AdrianDmitruk Posted September 19, 2015 Share Posted September 19, 2015 (edited) You're shocked? This is SOP for Bioware and Eric, they simply don't follow up with stuff and don't communicate at all with their player base. This will never be replied to again. And I'm sure that 18 months from now, they'll have a conversation like this in the office: Dev 1: "Hey, why do our metrics show that half the time planets have fewer than ten invasions?" Dev 2: "I'unno. Didn't we mess with that in 4.0?" Dev 1: "Yeah, we wanted to increase participation, not kill it." Dev 2: "Umm. I think we killed it. *** happened?" Dev 1: "Well I guess Musco was screaming at us to actually read that big long thread of feedback..." Dev 2: "Feedback? What feedback?" At this point Musco, having returned from the break room with caffeine in hand, seems to notice... Musco: "The fifty pages of conquest participants telling us that the only guilds who would be able to do conquests after the changes were large PVP guilds? And that the rewards, and lack of repeatability outside PVP, were so bad that there was no point except for those PVP guilds, who would just get points naturally for doing their thing?" Dev 1 and Dev 2 (in unison): "Uh oh." Dev 1: "Well, there's no sense in doing anything about it now. You'll only get heal-to-full all over again. And then proceed to break something else." Dev 2: "Yeah, you're probably right...let's just write off conquests like we did GSF." (Note that I'm giving Musco the benefit of the doubt here and assuming that he attempted to relay the gist of the objections but that he's completely gag ordered on this topic.) Edited September 19, 2015 by AdrianDmitruk Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Heat-Wave Posted September 19, 2015 Share Posted September 19, 2015 ^ If management was worth a darn, those devs would be fired for that conversation, such an attitude is simply not professional in my personal opinion. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AdrianDmitruk Posted September 19, 2015 Share Posted September 19, 2015 ^ If management was worth a darn, those devs would be fired for that conversation, such an attitude is simply not professional in my personal opinion. Somehow I think the Dunning-Kruger effect may be relevant to this conversation Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Heat-Wave Posted September 19, 2015 Share Posted September 19, 2015 Somehow I think the Dunning-Kruger effect may be relevant to this conversation In regards to the devs, the management, or the posters in the thread? In regards to myself, I started my first business more than 20 years ago, I've employed hundreds of people over the years, I've also fired plenty of people who couldn't hack it, were unprofessional, or simply were not worth what they cost to me. I pay well and expect the best. If you can't bring that, go work somewhere else. I have little tolerance for the suffering of fools. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AdrianDmitruk Posted September 19, 2015 Share Posted September 19, 2015 (edited) In regards to the devs, the management, or the posters in the thread? In regards to myself, I started my first business more than 20 years ago, I've employed hundreds of people over the years, I've also fired plenty of people who couldn't hack it, were unprofessional, or simply were not worth what they cost to me. I pay well and expect the best. If you can't bring that, go work somewhere else. I have little tolerance for the suffering of fools. The devs and/or their management. (Bioware is so opaque that it's difficult to be precise here.) Otherwise I wouldn't have bothered trying to predict their surprise when they stumble upon their failure 18 months from now... Edited September 19, 2015 by AdrianDmitruk Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Heat-Wave Posted September 19, 2015 Share Posted September 19, 2015 As a side note, the problems with SWTOR are largely not technical, they are business problems. Ignoring the community, not fixing bugs in the game, making large changes without plenty of warning, failure to understand what the customer wants and providing it, etc. Apple gets mocked by techies all the time who say things like, "oh their hardware is underpowered and overpriced, my Android phone has more cores and more RAM, it is better". Maybe... but Apple makes more money than all the other handset makers combined, so really, who gets the last laugh there? --- A good example of something that is very late in coming is the story mode flashpoints all scaling from lvl 10 to 65, that should have been done long ago. This game is supposed to be a MMO, lots of people playing, and yet almost the entire leveling process is gated so that anyone more than about 5 levels away from you can't really play with you. Whoever thought that was a good design decision doesn't really understand what the point was. This is what I mean by "business problems" rather than "technical problems". The basic ideas the original devs had were mistaken in many ways. Another is using an engine that can't handle open world PvP, in a MMO that screams for open world PvP. That should have been tested and figured out early on, since engines aren't easy to change. Finally, if you're going to make a MMO about Star Wars, one of the most popular franchises around, and you're going to spend upwards of $200 million making it, then it would make sense to have a plan to support it after release. This includes additional content ready to go to be released over time, so that you don't end up with gaps due to technical issues. It also means having enough separate teams working on stuff that you can keep people interested and engaged with what a MMO is. The idea that we have "story areas" that can't advance multiple people's missions at the same time in a group is embarrassing in 2015. The missions should be designed for both solo and group play, but they largely aren't, even for the new stuff. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AdrianDmitruk Posted September 19, 2015 Share Posted September 19, 2015 (edited) ^^And the really sad thing? KotFE looks to address a pretty big chunk of what you just said, especially regarding leveling, flashpoint flexibility, and having content ready to be meted out over time. Admittedly at this point they can't do much about the OWPVP. But because of Bioware's propensity for gag orders (i.e. bad community management), they sat on the KotFE info for too long, so when they announced they were going to break something (like conquests!), they are left with no time to absorb and react to feedback whatsoever. More than likely the gutting of conquests is set in stone now as they can't revert or modify this close to release. But by not giving us adequate notice of the changes, they tied their own hands when they left no time for feedback and being able to react to it. Oh, and we still know nothing about crafting in KotFE, other than that it'll be useless for conquests. And the result is going to be yet another part of the game falling into disuse. That's probably why they're so silent in here. They know they screwed up, but they don't have a way to correct the mistake (because they didn't allow themselves enough time to do that. They sat on their plans for too long and now they're stuck with them). Since they can't correct it, they're hoping it'll blow over. Edited September 19, 2015 by AdrianDmitruk Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Muljo_Stpho Posted September 19, 2015 Share Posted September 19, 2015 Oh, and we still know nothing about crafting in KotFE Not officially, anyway. In my previous post in this thread, I actually had something specific in mind with the "whatever else" in this part: It would take more work to implement, but I think a better solution would have been to add a mission terminal with several dailies and weeklies for crafting ("craft X of Y", where Y could be war supplies, prefab kits, dark projects, item modifications, or... whatever else) and maybe even missions for gathering as well (daily/weekly for gathering skills and daily/weekly for mission skills count successful returns from crew skill missions). Then change the condition of the repeatable crafting objective to "complete any daily or weekly on the crafting mission terminal". Of course we can't talk about info from those sources so I really can't spell out what I mean... But it's something pretty straightforward and generic that each crafting skill will have its own versions of. But yeah... Crafting mission terminal. Dailies and weeklies for crafting specific numbers of a specified object (quantities chosen to balance against quality of materials used and/or time needed to craft each one, so missions that call for cheaper/faster objects will require more of them). There could be missions for: * any war supply (definitely include a daily and a weekly) * an invasion force (possibly just a weekly) * industrial prefab / synthetic prefab / fabricator crystal / fabricator design (3 dailies and 3 weeklies to cover mk-1, mk-2, and mk-3) * universal prefab (possibly just 3 weeklies to cover mk-1, mk-2, and mk-3) * dark project (possibly just a weekly) * item modifications? (could be complex to handle, would probably need more than half a dozen sets of dailies with each one specifying a level range of armorings / hilts / barrels / mods / enhancements / augments that count for it, maybe also have a weekly that calls for a number of completions of any of these specific dailies) * gear or... whatever else (similar level of complexity as the item modifications... unless it's that "whatever else" instead... but either way it's also more than half a dozen dailies and maybe a weekly) * if they want a bit more to bulk up the mission list with, they could also consider dailies/weeklies that acknowledge successful returns from crew skill missions so that collecting materials for crafting is also given a nod in all of this Then conquests just need to change the core crafting objective from the current "craft any war supply" 500 point repeatable into "complete any mission from the crafting mission terminal" 500 point repeatable (or 250 or 200 or 317 or whatever balances out with the number of dailies and weeklies so that the maximum total gain (before bonuses?) from crafting alone within a week is about equal to the personal conquest target). (edit: With the number of missions I suggest here it looks like the place where it balances against the new 20k target actually would be between 325 and 350 points for the value of the objective.) With that idea, crafting gets a place within conquest as a solid fallback to help any and every character in your legacy (the ones with a craft at least, and if you have the resources for it all) reach their target. And that's about as far as crafting would get. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dscount Posted September 19, 2015 Share Posted September 19, 2015 (edited) Oh, and we still know nothing about crafting in KotFE, other than that it'll be useless for conquests. Not officially, anyway. AND that is the SAD part.. we have to goto THIRD PARTY to find out what the game is going to be doing. WHY? Other MMO's.. as I've stated have LONG lead times and they released more information on the DAY it was announced than what SWTOR has done in the last 2 months. Those that DO goto 3rd party sites are going to have a LEG UP on the other guy or even the new guy that has not even sub'd to the game. That's just an unfair advantage and they should get the lead out and publish stuff as they promised. Didn't we start 2015 with the community team stating "MORE communications this year" or something along those lines? Our weekly live streams have gone away, the replacement version to them has also been MIA for MANY MANY months. Now the only INFO we get is "KoTFE Draft xx Patch Notes on each Class". That doesn't exactly take a whole lot of effort to cut/paste that information folks. Even this thread was a POST IT and drop the Microphone for over 2 weekends so far. (Why can't we get some information??) I'm sorry.. this is just silly how KoTFE is just turning into a tap dancing boondoggle and leads me to believe it's going to be a crapper deployment than 2015 roadmap and GSF combined. Edited September 19, 2015 by dscount Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AdrianDmitruk Posted September 19, 2015 Share Posted September 19, 2015 (edited) KotFE promises to be a crappier deployment than 2015 roadmap, GSF, contraband slot machine, and 3.0 Ravagers exploit while devs go on Christmas vacation, combined. Edited September 19, 2015 by AdrianDmitruk Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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