Maras now tougher than Jugg DPS

[Icykill_]

So I've been playing 2 Maras and a Sent (I recently lvld another to get to know the Fury build, my other one was Carnage)... Anyway I went back to one of my Juggs for a bit of Variety... I hadn't played her for about 6 months... I found her squishy and less survivable than my Maras... I thought I was just rusty with her... But kept practicing... Still I find her less survivable... And against a good Mara I lose... I don't know if I am doing something wrong or not... I will keep trying... But let me tell you I feel like a tank on my Mara compared to a lot of my other classes... I can easily defend against 2 and often 3... I can global a healer and kill pretty much all classes in a 1v1... So are Maras "back baby" or what??... I've noticed a lot of new Maras in mids and 60s... With a few more in ranked

[Racter]

I have 2 of each and find the opposite to be true. Maras with no healer are incredibly squishy, with a healer they are on par with Vengeance at best. Rage Jugg is far weaker defensively than either. For comparison's sake:

 

Vengeance

20% DR on leap (played correctly, ~40% uptime)

20% DR on Endure Pain (1m CD)

25% F/T DR, 50% R/M Def Saber Ward (3m CD)

100% DR F/T/R 3-5s duration Reflect (1m CD)

~20% DR Soresu (No CD, but not good for DPS to stay in)

2971 per tick heal, 12 charges, 35652 total, think it can crit/definitely scales off relic procs, usable while stunned 90s CD

35.5% DR base

 

Mara, various specs

20% DR Cloak of Pain, up to 50% uptime (1m CD)

25% F/T DR, 50% R/M Def Saber Ward (3m CD)

50% DR 4-6s duration, target drop, Camo (45s CD)

99% DR 4-6s duration Undying Rage (2.5-3m CD)

28-32% DR base

Edited September 8, 2015 by Racter

[Volthammer]

So I've been playing 2 Maras and a Sent (I recently lvld another to get to know the Fury build, my other one was Carnage)... Anyway I went back to one of my Juggs for a bit of Variety... I hadn't played her for about 6 months... I found her squishy and less survivable than my Maras... I thought I was just rusty with her... But kept practicing... Still I find her less survivable... And against a good Mara I lose... I don't know if I am doing something wrong or not... I will keep trying... But let me tell you I feel like a tank on my Mara compared to a lot of my other classes... I can easily defend against 2 and often 3... I can global a healer and kill pretty much all classes in a 1v1... So are Maras "back baby" or what??... I've noticed a lot of new Maras in mids and 60s... With a few more in ranked

 

Don't know about that, but you and a partner did reduce my commando to a small pile of smoldering ashes in about 3 seconds or less a few days back. LOL He was only level 43 at the time and I let myself get talked into queuing with some friends before I was really comfortable taking him into mids. Low and behold there you were on your Mara. Ha ha ha! It was awesome.

[Icykill_]

I have 2 of each and find the opposite to be true. Maras with no healer are incredibly squishy, with a healer they are on par with Vengeance at best. Rage Jugg is far weaker defensively than either.

 

That is probably why... I'm playing rage... Time to switch spec again

[Icykill_]

Don't know about that, but you and a partner did reduce my commando to a small pile of smoldering ashes in about 3 seconds or less a few days back. LOL He was only level 43 at the time and I let myself get talked into queuing with some friends before I was really comfortable taking him into mids. Low and behold there you were on your Mara. Ha ha ha! It was awesome.

 

I was wondering who PMd me... I think I was only lvl 47 at the time too

[jedcjedcjedc]

personally i find rage to be clunky either way. Everything costs so much and it's so quick to put all its moves on CD and be left with just filler. this could very well be a l2p issue, but I myself much prefer vengeance and or carnage for DPS. Currently gearing up as tank atm though as there are so few of us it seems.

[Svarthrafn]

I usually don't have to rely on filler too much as rage. Noticably more squishy than vengeance though. Hooboy.

[power-alex]

Beating a vengeance jug with all of their defensives available would be really tough on mara. Jugs take at least a 100k beating while putting out 2-3.5 kdps. But play it smart enough and maras are no joke, it's true.

[Obviousenuendo]

I played a focus guardian fully geared/augmented for the lulz.

it's cool, in how you can 3-4 shot people, and continually maintain this burst every few seconds..

but man if more than 5 dots tick on you and FD is down.. you're done, I died so many times. then though I was top damage and kills It's just annoying dying from not even being focused or attacked

[Icykill_]

I played a focus guardian fully geared/augmented for the lulz.

it's cool, in how you can 3-4 shot people, and continually maintain this burst every few seconds..

but man if more than 5 dots tick on you and FD is down.. you're done, I died so many times. then though I was top damage and kills It's just annoying dying from not even being focused or attacked

 

Yes, that is my main issue... Those DOTs on my Jugg, lol... Its not that I want to cleanse so much... It's the fact that you can't get away fast enough so they can't keep dropping them on you... At least with my Mara I have the stealth option and predation when my defences are on CD...

I'm sure it's a re-L2P the class again for me... Plus the fact that I'm on rage instead of carnage... I'll swap spec and see if it improves... At the moment I switched to Immortal with full DPS gear... I'm doing pretty good DPS... So if I can't get carnage to work either, I'll probably stay with Immortal... And skank it

I should also say I was testing this while the two routers 2 hops away from the Bio servers are having 75-100% packet loss... I know I am having ability lag on all classes... I guess it might be affecting me more on my Jugg because I am rusty with that class

[DNGDangerous]

Rage jug definatelly crumbles faster then mara under pressure- i think force camo is the deal breaker.

 

At least for me, this is the case. I dont play the other jug specs so I cant speak about those. As for mara; i utility my carnage for maximum mobility, so getting out quick is easy, where as a rage jug, once Im in the thick, im commited.

 

That being said, i have more fun playing my jug, even though I am a die hard mara. Mara just does flow like it used to. Before carnage mara used to be a symphony of grace and brutality, now its just elevator music.

Edited September 8, 2015 by DNGDangerous

[Icykill_]

Rage jug definatelly crumbles faster then mara under pressure- i think force camo is the deal breaker.

 

At least for me, this is the case. I dont play the other jug specs so I cant speak about those. As for mara; i utility my carnage for maximum mobility, so getting out quick is easy, where as a rage jug, once Im in the thick, im commited.

 

That being said, i have more fun playing my jug, even though I am a die hard mara. Mara just does flow like it used to. Before carnage mara used to be a symphony of grace and brutality, now its just elevator music.

 

Try Fury for your Mara... It seems less clunky than carnage and you still have the same mobility

[Obviousenuendo]

the problem is passive DR.

viligance works because it has the absolute highest passive DR.. BEFORE dcd's.

with focus, you get 3% flat..that's it

sents get a purge every 45's along with that same 3% plus cloak of pain/rebuke. which is 25% DR, that's like have power sheild up every 30 seconds, DR is as important as mobility in this meta because of the inflated healers and power of off-healing, the longer you live without aid of others, the longer you live WITH the aid of others, and that's the main sources of winners in this game

[DynamiCtagez]

No, they are not tougher at all. They are just less susceptible to being kited.

Juggs lack mobility. Maras have access to two rootbreaks, Juggs have literally none, except Intercede in Fury. Still, both of a Marauders rootbreaks are in Heroic tier, while Juggs will soon get one in Skillfull and one in Heroic which will make them at least equally mobile, if not more, while Maras will get another one in Heroic and will remain stuck with 3 rootbreaks in the last tier of which they can only access two. Huge ********.

Edited September 8, 2015 by DynamiCtagez

[DNGDangerous]

Try Fury for your Mara... It seems less clunky than carnage and you still have the same mobility

 

Sounds good- ill try it out for the next couple weeks.

[foxmob]

I have 2 of each and find the opposite to be true. Maras with no healer are incredibly squishy, with a healer they are on par with Vengeance at best.

 

I have to disagree there. juggs shine when a healer isn't present because of their massive self-healing capability. give a mara heals, and he's a wrecking ball (poor man's AP). I'm thoroughly enjoying my time on rage/fury, but I think carny is the best performer -- I just go for the QoL of a second breaker and the force crush immunity.

 

agree about jugg specs: between my two juggs (is a valley! heh), what I notice is the veng is just easier. it's bursty for a "dot spec." in that respect it's similar to IO merc, but there's no ramp up time on veng. you start hitting right away. I do think rage/fury is serviceable, but there's no reason to play it except for the root break, and veng has its own neat tricks to get around that.

[wadecounty]

I have to disagree there. juggs shine when a healer isn't present because of their massive self-healing capability. give a mara heals, and he's a wrecking ball (poor man's AP). I'm thoroughly enjoying my time on rage/fury, but I think carny is the best performer -- I just go for the QoL of a second breaker and the force crush immunity.

 

agree about jugg specs: between my two juggs (is a valley! heh), what I notice is the veng is just easier. it's bursty for a "dot spec." in that respect it's similar to IO merc, but there's no ramp up time on veng. you start hitting right away. I do think rage/fury is serviceable, but there's no reason to play it except for the root break, and veng has its own neat tricks to get around that.

 

This is the correct assessment. Without a healer (or even with one if they're mediocre), Jugg is always going to feel tankier because of that second life they have (three if you count Endure Pain + Medpack), but with one, Maras definitely have a higher DR most of the time (more uptime on Cloak of Pain than Unstoppable, Undying > Reflect at stopping damage, Camo's ability to make people drop target is extremely underrated along with its DR).

 

In addition as was pointed out, Maras having access to 2 root break options to Juggs zero currently makes a rather large difference in survivability as well. The additions in 4.0 should help even that area out some.

[Lalainnia]

Mara defs are built more around the fact of taking on damage from multiple sources specifically with undying rage and force camo, and by multiple sources I mean it scales infinitely if you had 8 or more people attacking you while UR was up pretty much the majority of that incoming damage would be negated. same can be said for force camo just on a smaller scale since it only reduces damage by 50% but add in cloak of pain which is a straight 20% DR if up and looking at something around 70% DR while in force camo and the only way to stop this effect is with stealth scan or the mara using an attack. Compared that to Juggernauts Enraged def and endure pain, Enraged def is amazing in smaller scale fights like 1v1 2v2 3v3 not that it doesn't serve its purpose it's just less valuable the more damage that can be added on by simply adding in another person same thing pretty much applies to endure pain.

 

This whole immunity vs health regains and Damage reductions etc are a big part to why certain classes will outright do better. Then you add healers and tanks into the mix and you end up with issues where pretty much all the weakness of a class/spec almost vanish.

 

One of the main things that I feel makes certain def cds less important as well is burst both damage and healing it's simply to high. Another thing to me is dotspread+uncleanseable dots both of those together really force certain specs to pop cds especially if a healer isn't present, and they can do literally nothing about it specifically maras,juggernauts snipers and Pt's. Flip side you have to look at it as though it made some dot specs slightly more viable in pvp Ik as a mando healer I could literally ignore Anni maras and any tech users when dots were cleanseable plus super short cleanse cd, same for sorc vs any force user

 

While I totally got way off topic it all comes down to really bad balancing in the grand scheme of things imo. I mean just look at pve stacking is the pretty much the best start of strat for most fights especially with 8 person aoe heals now.