Debate of the rising underdog, arsenal or IO?

[Zoom_VI]

Nothing to do with tanks.

 

Firstly you are partially correct. All abilities are 100% accurate except default attack which is 90%.

 

So I don't need accuracy?

 

Wrong.

 

All classes have 5% dodge chance except consulars/inquisitors which have 10% dodge. This is before any tank specs. That means 5-10% chance to make white damage attacks miss.

 

Walk into a warzone with your 101% accuracy from companion buff and you will miss Mag Shot, Blazing Bolt, Railshot, Unload and Priming Shot mainhand hits 4% of the time vs most people and 9% of the time vs consulars and inquisitors. Without them using any cooldowns. Or being tanks.

 

So, to fix this you can do two things:

 

1) Get 105% accuracy so you wont miss on anyone except 5% on consulars/inquisitors

 

2) Go all the way to 110% so you hit all your attacks as long as they are not tanks or using cooldowns which increase dodge.

 

It doesn't matter though, nearly all misses in PvP result from DcDs or accuracy debuffs. I ran a test back in 3.2 using a personal program that mass read combat logs from warzones. I had two 60 VGs one running 94% accuracy and the other running 91%. After doing warzones for several weeks I looked a the numbers.

 

The hitrate or the accuracy vanguard was ~86% on HiB, the accuracy for the no-accuracy vanguard was ~87% on HiB. In fact the hit rate for every single M/R attack I looked at - HiB, Boltstorm, PT Railshot, Maul, Voltaic slash - was around 87%, the only exception was Vortex Bolt which was a 92% hitrate, for reasons that I have no clue about.

[foxmob]

Drop accuracy entirely from your gear, and drop surge to a crit multi of 70% (on the nose if you can) and pump the rest into alacrity. It shouldn't DR hard with PvP gear, and I've found my ammo management much better, not to mention the lowering of cooldowns which AS/IO depends on heavily with the ICD on Mag Bolt reset, and ICD on instant cast SB, CB, MP..

 

I would not recommend doing this because it will make a difficult task impossible (bursting down anyone). but there is valid reasoning for this. not so much resource management (which is a plus), but it is a dot spec, and you should have 3-4 (fusion missile optional) dots ticking on at least one target at all times. as long as you play it like that, the trade off could be worth it.

 

I don't like that approach mostly because I despise the dot spread mechanic, and I would rather hit 13k with my rails. stacking alac is just too unreliable imo. but it is a valid strat.

 

:2cents:

[Draqsko]

I would not recommend doing this because it will make a difficult task impossible (bursting down anyone). but there is valid reasoning for this. not so much resource management (which is a plus), but it is a dot spec, and you should have 3-4 (fusion missile optional) dots ticking on at least one target at all times. as long as you play it like that, the trade off could be worth it.

 

I don't like that approach mostly because I despise the dot spread mechanic, and I would rather hit 13k with my rails. stacking alac is just too unreliable imo. but it is a valid strat.

 

:2cents:

 

I get 13-15k hits with mag bolt. You do realize IO gets a surge bonus right?

 

Ordinance Expert

Increase the critical damage bonus for Unload, Power Shot, Thermal Detonator, and Mag Shot by 30%.

 

That means your surge is effectively 100% for IO's rail (since you don't use rail shot you use mag shot in IO). 5% or more on a progressively harder DR is not better for IO, the alacrity is.

[foxmob]

Ordinance Expert

Increase the critical damage bonus for Unload, Power Shot, Thermal Detonator, and Mag Shot by 30%.

 

That means your surge is effectively 100% for IO's rail (since you don't use rail shot you use mag shot in IO). 5% or more on a progressively harder DR is not better for IO, the alacrity is.

I'm aware of how the spec works.

[Zoom_VI]

I get 13-15k hits with mag bolt. You do realize IO gets a surge bonus right?

more on a progressively harder DR is not better for IO, the alacrity is.

 

 

1k hypothetical pre-surge attack

50% surge - 1k + (1k *50%) = 1.5k damage

55% surge - 1k + (1k * 55%) = 1.55k damage

100% surge - 1k + (1k * 100%) = 2k damage

105% surge - 1k + (1k * 105%) = 2.05k damage

 

adding 5% surge is the same damage increase no matter if you are at 100% surge or at 50% surge.

 

Alacrity is rather poor anyways, the damage increase from it is almost non-existent in a game mode where you are getting downtime every 10 seconds or less. Accuracy would be of more benefit to IO and that says a lot.

[Draqsko]

1k hypothetical pre-surge attack

50% surge - 1k + (1k *50%) = 1.5k damage

55% surge - 1k + (1k * 55%) = 1.55k damage

100% surge - 1k + (1k * 100%) = 2k damage

105% surge - 1k + (1k * 105%) = 2.05k damage

 

adding 5% surge is the same damage increase no matter if you are at 100% surge or at 50% surge.

 

Alacrity is rather poor anyways, the damage increase from it is almost non-existent in a game mode where you are getting downtime every 10 seconds or less. Accuracy would be of more benefit to IO and that says a lot.

 

I don't get a lot of downtime, and I ran into ammo issues without 5% alacrity. Eventually I hit dead periods where Res Cell and Recharge Cells are both on cooldown and I'm tanking on ammo so bad I can only hammer shot. The higher the alacrity, the better I do as long as surge is 70% or greater. I would love to push surge higher but there's real ammo issues in long term fights and I am too aggressive to not be engaged almost all the time.

[Zoom_VI]

I don't get a lot of downtime, and I ran into ammo issues without 5% alacrity. Eventually I hit dead periods where Res Cell and Recharge Cells are both on cooldown and I'm tanking on ammo so bad I can only hammer shot. The higher the alacrity, the better I do as long as surge is 70% or greater. I would love to push surge higher but there's real ammo issues in long term fights and I am too aggressive to not be engaged almost all the time.

 

 

Except Alacrity does not help ammo management at all. It speeds up attack rate proportionally so no difference during uptime. You would see a regen increase during downtime of course, but with the meager returns on alacrity the difference would be inconsequential.

[TyrannisWP]

Considering the merc set bonus is STILL broken for arsenal but not for IO id say arsenal

 

Edit: Thank God their set bonus isn't broken for IO or it would break pvp

Edited August 20, 2015 by TyrannisWP

[Gyronamics]

It doesn't matter though, nearly all misses in PvP result from DcDs or accuracy debuffs. I ran a test back in 3.2 using a personal program that mass read combat logs from warzones. I had two 60 VGs one running 94% accuracy and the other running 91%. After doing warzones for several weeks I looked a the numbers.

 

The hitrate or the accuracy vanguard was ~86% on HiB, the accuracy for the no-accuracy vanguard was ~87% on HiB. In fact the hit rate for every single M/R attack I looked at - HiB, Boltstorm, PT Railshot, Maul, Voltaic slash - was around 87%, the only exception was Vortex Bolt which was a 92% hitrate, for reasons that I have no clue about.

 

Your results may also be saying something about how you play/how vanguards play and the gearing of the average player attacking you.

 

I don't feel carried by your analysis but it would be interesting to analyse my pvp logs as I do run 95%.

[Draqsko]

Except Alacrity does not help ammo management at all. It speeds up attack rate proportionally so no difference during uptime. You would see a regen increase during downtime of course, but with the meager returns on alacrity the difference would be inconsequential.

 

You're forgetting that it lowers cooldowns on everything, included your ammo escapes. Not sure about you, but on my mando I'm using my escapes on cooldown after the first use at 25%. Not to mention lowering the cooldown on Mag Bolt reset which helps regen ammo as well.

 

No, it's not stack X alacrity and you'll recharge faster, but it does help with ammo management and that was my biggest issue since I really don't miss many attacks, and 5% more surge is only like 2-3k more damage over the length of someone's hp bar. It's enough to prevent the forced downtime I was having with how ammo has been for AS since 3.0.

 

Maybe if they built more supercharge stacks on another or different attack for AS, because you really aren't using Charged Bolt as much as Gunnery uses Grav Round so there's a chance the stacks drop. So your options for AS are Hammer Shot, Med Shot, and Charged Bolt right now and you really don't use those outside of HS to get the dot, then CB in your takedown chain or whenever FA is on cooldown and you can't hit more than one person with Hail of Bolts for the reset instead. I mean if Gunnery gets it on Grav Round, we should get it on Mag Bolt too.

[Obviousenuendo]

Maybe if they built more supercharge stacks on another or different attack for AS, because you really aren't using Charged Bolt as much as Gunnery uses Grav Round so there's a chance the stacks drop. So your options for AS are Hammer Shot, Med Shot, and Charged Bolt right now and you really don't use those outside of HS to get the dot, then CB in your takedown chain or whenever FA is on cooldown and you can't hit more than one person with Hail of Bolts for the reset instead. I mean if Gunnery gets it on Grav Round, we should get it on Mag Bolt too.

 

this was my other big problem with that spec, never getting supercharge gas. . . charges.

honestly if separated bolt added a charge (since it's an ability that shouldn't exist imo and should replace or add to power shot) then the spec would be okay, but since I need rapid shot, power shot, rapid shots, and healing scan, most of which I don't use as much in that spec, that only adds problems.

[foxmob]

this was my other big problem with that spec, never getting supercharge gas. . . charges.

honestly if separated bolt added a charge (since it's an ability that shouldn't exist imo and should replace or add to power shot) then the spec would be okay, but since I need rapid shot, power shot, rapid shots, and healing scan, most of which I don't use as much in that spec, that only adds problems.

 

i think supercharger stacks should apply with every abil that costs resources, but i disagree that i don't get it as frequently in io. not sure what you're saying about serrated shot. can you clarify?

[Draqsko]

this was my other big problem with that spec, never getting supercharge gas. . . charges.

honestly if separated bolt added a charge (since it's an ability that shouldn't exist imo and should replace or add to power shot) then the spec would be okay, but since I need rapid shot, power shot, rapid shots, and healing scan, most of which I don't use as much in that spec, that only adds problems.

 

The problem with it being on Serrated is that Serrated has a cooldown whereas Grav/Tracer doesn't. And you're really only hitting Serrated once per target anyways.

 

If there's any other one I could think of that would make sense for it would be Full Auto/Unload, but then you'd have to restrict that only working while in Plasma Cell.

 

Honestly, I never understood why they didn't do that from the start after extending Supercharger off healing spec. Healing abilities build supercharge only in combat support, Grav Round and Hammer Shot build it in ap cell, and Charge Bolts (or preferably an ability used more in the rotation) and Hammer Shot build it in plasma cell.

[mmmbuddah]

i think supercharger stacks should apply with every abil that costs resources, but i disagree that i don't get it as frequently in io. not sure what you're saying about serrated shot. can you clarify?

 

Serrated shot should do the same job that charged bolts does, I am pretty sure that is what he meant. Adding ANOTHER ability to an already bloated rotation was not necessary.

[Draqsko]

Serrated shot should do the same job that charged bolts does, I am pretty sure that is what he meant. Adding ANOTHER ability to an already bloated rotation was not necessary.

 

Only CB and hammer shot builds supercharge for Assault, Gunnery has hammer shot, CB, AND grav round build supercharge. The suggestion was for Serrated Bolt instead of Mag Bolt because of Mag Bolt already returning ammo, but again it returns to the same issue: Serrated Bolt is used even less than CB in Assault's rotation, and even both of them together are used less than Grav Round alone in Gunnery.

 

Assault needs supercharge way more than Gunnery does, yet Gunnery builds stacks the easiest of all 3 specs.

[Zoom_VI]

Only CB and hammer shot builds supercharge for Assault, Gunnery has hammer shot, CB, AND grav round build supercharge.

 

Gunnery doesn't use CB.

[Draqsko]

Gunnery doesn't use CB.

 

Shouldn't you mean. It's not like they don't have access to it.

[foxmob]

like it matters. the majority of my stacks on both specs comes from med shots

[Zoom_VI]

Shouldn't you mean. It's not like they don't have access to it.

 

Shouldn't because grav replaces CB entirely, thus including CB in a list of supercharge building abilities for gunnery is misleading to the extreme.

 

Gunnery builds stacks faster because grav round is spammed much more than IO spams CB. However IO's supercharge is miles better than Gunnery's Supercharge.

[Obviousenuendo]

like it matters. the majority of my stacks on both specs comes from med shots

well that's your first problem, med shot is garbage. it should only be used if you're waiting to leave the spawn area.

like, rapid shoting random targets is a more efficient thing to do, even then though.

 

the dots don't last long enough, the dots do crap damage and need to be reapplied constantly, if we had a refresh on sepperated shot I might not entirely hate it existence, but even that is lacking.

[foxmob]

well that's your first problem, med shot is garbage. it should only be used if you're waiting to leave the spawn area.

like, rapid shoting random targets is a more efficient thing to do, even then though.

 

the dots don't last long enough, the dots do crap damage and need to be reapplied constantly, if we had a refresh on sepperated shot I might not entirely hate it existence, but even that is lacking.

 

no. med shots is what you do running away when your instants are on cd. which is pretty often. it's what you do when you have any split second of down time. it's by far the most used abil on either spec...but yes. it's a garbage heal. and it's not in the "rotation."

[Ryako]

The defining difference between the two specs for me is the damage value differential. Where IO is better for overall damage output (not by a large margin) the damage holds less value due to the simple fact that the enemy is given more time to react. Example: IO would require 60,000 damage to drop sorc over a period of 60 seconds. Arsenal in this example would only require 45,000 damage in 45 seconds.

[Gyronamics]

The defining difference between the two specs for me is the damage value differential. Where IO is better for overall damage output (not by a large margin) the damage holds less value due to the simple fact that the enemy is given more time to react. Example: IO would require 60,000 damage to drop sorc over a period of 60 seconds. Arsenal in this example would only require 45,000 damage in 45 seconds.

 

You misunderstand the damage difference.

 

Give IO 45 seconds on a target and it will bury the output of Arsenal.

 

IO has extremely vicious delayed DOT shred if you give it time to prepare the opener. If then allowed to follow up with the sustained rotation it will completely melt someones face.

 

But it doesn't happen like that.

 

You'd call it a good burst in IO just to get the full opener off on someone and cut their health in half, at which point they pop every cooldown they have and try to LOS or kite. You don't get to freecast on the same target for long periods.

 

Arsenal has a lower damage ceiling but can chunk off someones health instantly at any time. It doesn't get any better than burst with weak periods between burst but it doesn't get any worse than that.

[foxmob]

well...IO is also susceptible to purge and forced focus swaps that arsenal is not. a purge at an inopportune time can cut IO's burst in half (end up using mag w/o burning target and miss the TD + frag window). it's actually kinda interesting that crinn compared IO to AP earlier b/c you can completely negate AP's TD and it's as if it doesn't matter (in regs and solos). Edited August 20, 2015 by foxmob

[Ryako]

You misunderstand the damage difference.

 

Give IO 45 seconds on a target and it will bury the output of Arsenal.

 

IO has extremely vicious delayed DOT shred if you give it time to prepare the opener. If then allowed to follow up with the sustained rotation it will completely melt someones face.

 

But it doesn't happen like that.

 

You'd call it a good burst in IO just to get the full opener off on someone and cut their health in half, at which point they pop every cooldown they have and try to LOS or kite. You don't get to freecast on the same target for long periods.

 

Arsenal has a lower damage ceiling but can chunk off someones health instantly at any time. It doesn't get any better than burst with weak periods between burst but it doesn't get any worse than that.

 

I agree with you, my example was not very good. I should have used smaller timeframes to express my point.