Does the games version of the Sorcerer make sense in lore?

[Malkosha]

I really like the playstyle of the Sith Sorcerer but I have a problem when it comes to the question "Is this a real Star Wars char archetype or is this just the games way of making a classic MMORPG mage clone"? I'm no expert on lore but I'm enjoying learning about it. It can be very addictive. I had no idea the Star Wars universe was so vast and filled with such lore.

 

Most of the reading I've done does validate the powers of the Sith Sorcerer but they always include lightsaber combat to go with it. While the Sith Sorcerer does start off using a lightsaber in melee range, after level 10 the thing becomes no more than a stat stick and the "mage" thing takes over. Even Naga Sadow used a Sith Sword and Exar Kun was a noted master of the lightsaber. In the first trilogy, Darth Sidious doesn't use one at all as I recall, but does put up an excellent fight against Yoda with one in the second trilogy.

 

I'm not sure why I don't just say "bump it, forget the lore and play one", but everyone has their quirks. I guess I'm looking for someone to validate using the Sith Sorcerer as its presented in game ... pure force attacks holding the lightsaber as a prop.

[Rodyn]

http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/Sith_Sorcery

 

Sith sorcery has existed for a very long time in Star Wars. What the Sorcerer class does in TOR is actually pretty small-time compared to the stuff they can usually do.

[SithKoriandr]

Most Sith/Jedi tend to know how to use a lightsaber in a fight, sadly they don't allow a Sorc/Sage too. For that reason, I've never rolled one.

[cjlcw]

The lack of being effective with a lightsaver is for gameplay purposes. If the class was just as good with a lightsaber as with the force, then the class woukd be unbalanced. Canonically, the Inquisitor would also be able to use a lughtsaber well. Based off of cutscents and force powers, the class seems to fit with lore. Also, some Sith do stop using their lighrsaver, believing that their skills with the force are good enough.

 

I will say that with my sorcerer, I do find my lightsaber to be useful when my enemy becomes low on health and when i want to save force points. I use it fairly often even at 60 against standard mobs.

[Rodyn]

Whoops, misunderstood.

 

The thing to take into account is that many Sith and Jedi alike that take the powers like the Sorcerers and Sages just have little use for lightsabers as they grow in power. To them, they're more just a symbol of their position and possibly a defensive tool, but not much more than that. Sith sorcerery and the Jedi equivalent is just kinda beyond mere dueling, hence why, as you stated, Palpatine didn't even bother to use one in RotJ.

 

It's not really that they can't be expert duelists, so much as they don't care to, either because they see it as below them, or because a focus on martial combat takes away from their studies of the Force.

[loctys]

Whoops, misunderstood.

 

The thing to take into account is that many Sith and Jedi alike that take the powers like the Sorcerers and Sages just have little use for lightsabers as they grow in power. To them, they're more just a symbol of their position and possibly a defensive tool, but not much more than that. Sith sorcerery and the Jedi equivalent is just kinda beyond mere dueling, hence why, as you stated, Palpatine didn't even bother to use one in RotJ.

 

It's not really that they can't be expert duelists, so much as they don't care to, either because they see it as below them, or because a focus on martial combat takes away from their studies of the Force.

 

I was thinking about the same thing I see Sorcerers and Sages as Mages or Wizards like in DnD or other games like it. As a Sorcerer or Sage you focus completely on your force powers and abilities. If as Rodyn stated you actually look up the Sorcerer/Sage you'd find that their is a huge difference between the games Sorcerer/Sage than what is given in the Star Wars history given that Sorcerers/Sages have been around for well as long as Star Wars has been around but much longer.

 

If you are to go by the Sorcerer/Sage in star wars history you'd find that you have no need at all for lightsaber when you have the power of the force be it light/dark side at your disposal and decimate all of your foes pretty easily with out anyone really being able to get to you or if they get to you touch you

[Malkosha]

I guess that the headcannon would run along the lines of "I once used a lightsaber but I've outgrown it ... feel the power of the Dark Side" type of mindset.

 

I also understand the problem that would occur if you had the force skills of the Sor/Sage AND the combat melee skills of a Warrior. Talk about overpowered!

 

While I have a SW and a Sin, I do like the way the Sorcerer skills mesh together and the options to deal with almost any situation. Going to have to level 1 before the 12XP dies in the next expansion.

[gblXsw]

I don't have much of a problem imagining a Sith preferring to use his strength in the force instead of using a lightsaber. He would still know his way around it, but I accept that would not work well for gameplay reasons.

 

However, I have much more of a problem with Sage gameplay in relation to lore. Jedi use the force to enhance themselves and even to unbalance or distract an opponent, but using the force as a deadly weapon - that's a very un-Jedi thing to do, an absolute last resort.

 

"A Jedi uses the force for knowledge and defense, never for attack" - Yoda

[loctys]

not much is known about Sages except for this http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/Jedi_Sage

 

Jedi Sages were Jedi Consulars who fought for the Galactic Republic during the

Great Galactic War and the Cold War that Followed it circa 3653 BBY

 

These Jedi specialized in Force healing and Telekinesis. Jedi Sages were known

to primarily wield one single-bladed lightsaber in combat, and were adept at ranged

attacks with the force.

 

The use of the term "Jedi Sage" to denote specialized Jedi Consulars may have been an

adaption of the term "Sage Master," which was previously used to denote a Jedi Consular

of great skill and learning. The term Sage master was used to describe the subjects of two

Bronzium statues at the main entrance of the Jedi Temple on Courscant memorializing two of

the Jedi Masters who founded the temple circa 4000 BBY

[Rhyltran]

It makes sense in the context of the lore. Not everyone is a lightsaber master. In the rule of two it's different because they mastered every facet that was being Sith. This included all SEVEN lightsaber forms, Sith Sorcery, Sith Alchemy, and raw mastery. In the older days it wasn't so clear cut like that. Most saber masters didn't even master all seven forms. Depending on the time there wasn't as much compiled knowledge because different masters would hold different secrets.

 

Vitiate for example isn't much of a lightsaber master. He didn't see the point in mastering saber combat. Not to mention one of the lightsaber forms is known as Niman which uses the saber as a defense and a saber as a tool to inflict a killing blow while heavily relying on the force for most of the combat. This is probably what is employed by the Sorcerer/Sage. Notice you still use your lightsaber visually to block blaster bolts and your animations will also parry lightsaber attacks against those that are attacking you head on.

 

So your character is actively using his/her lightsaber. Not to mention realistically the only blow you actually land is the killing one so until they land a killing blow any attack made against you is being actively parried. Your killing blow just comes from the force. Even then you can say Sidious was a sorcerer type. He claimed he no longer needed a lightsaber and only used his lightsaber to humiliate the Jedi. His real power came from using the force. This is the equivalent of using a lightsaber only against say.. a level 20-30 opponent and easily killing it. Sidious was just so powerful and so good that even "toying around" he was able to defeat other lightsaber masters.

[Rodyn]

not much is known about Sages except for this http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/Jedi_Sage

 

Jedi Sages were Jedi Consulars who fought for the Galactic Republic during the

Great Galactic War and the Cold War that Followed it circa 3653 BBY

 

These Jedi specialized in Force healing and Telekinesis. Jedi Sages were known

to primarily wield one single-bladed lightsaber in combat, and were adept at ranged

attacks with the force.

 

The use of the term "Jedi Sage" to denote specialized Jedi Consulars may have been an

adaption of the term "Sage Master," which was previously used to denote a Jedi Consular

of great skill and learning. The term Sage master was used to describe the subjects of two

Bronzium statues at the main entrance of the Jedi Temple on Courscant memorializing two of

the Jedi Masters who founded the temple circa 4000 BBY

In any other context, TOR's Jedi Sage would be called a Jedi Consular anywhere else. The standard three forms of a Jedi are Guardian, Sentinel, and Consular, with Shadows normally being under the Sentinel path, not the Consular path. The TOR devs just swapped things around a bit to fit the two Jedi class system.

 

So any lore on Sages on Wookieepedia would be on the Jedi Consular page.

[mynxvablid]

Overall, yes, the Sith Sorcerer does make sense lore wise. Emperor Palpatine, for example, used a saber, and was quite proficient with it, but preferred to use lightning instead. Naga Sadow was said to have been well versed in Sith Sorcery as well as melee combat. Exar Kun would be the prime example of a Sith Assassin due to his indepth knowledge of Sith Sorcery and his double bladed saber technique.

 

In the Star Wars RCR, there were two prestige classes called: dark side devotee and sith acolyte. The Dark Side Devotee, outside of any feats they could take, had only one primary melee ability and that was to empower a non-powered weapon, like a staff or a sword, with the force to make it a force weapon. The Sith Acolyte had some of the defensive lightsaber techniques of block and deflect, and had an increased saber damage ability. other than that, they had little to enhance their saber combat. Even their bonus feat choices were more for force using than melee combat. So, even in other game systems, you had classes that were more force focused than combat focused.

[Karkais]

It makes sense in the context of the lore. Not everyone is a lightsaber master. In the rule of two it's different because they mastered every facet that was being Sith. This included all SEVEN lightsaber forms, Sith Sorcery, Sith Alchemy, and raw mastery. In the older days it wasn't so clear cut like that. Most saber masters didn't even master all seven forms. Depending on the time there wasn't as much compiled knowledge because different masters would hold different secrets.

 

Vitiate for example isn't much of a lightsaber master. He didn't see the point in mastering saber combat. Not to mention one of the lightsaber forms is known as Niman which uses the saber as a defense and a saber as a tool to inflict a killing blow while heavily relying on the force for most of the combat. This is probably what is employed by the Sorcerer/Sage. Notice you still use your lightsaber visually to block blaster bolts and your animations will also parry lightsaber attacks against those that are attacking you head on.

 

So your character is actively using his/her lightsaber. Not to mention realistically the only blow you actually land is the killing one so until they land a killing blow any attack made against you is being actively parried. Your killing blow just comes from the force. Even then you can say Sidious was a sorcerer type. He claimed he no longer needed a lightsaber and only used his lightsaber to humiliate the Jedi. His real power came from using the force. This is the equivalent of using a lightsaber only against say.. a level 20-30 opponent and easily killing it. Sidious was just so powerful and so good that even "toying around" he was able to defeat other lightsaber masters.

 

Very well put. The sorcerer/sage indeed use lightsaber to parry blaster bolts and melee strikes. Game mechanics-wise it makes sense to have characters that specialize in melee and characters that specialize in force. In other fiction, you won't find as clear cut differences as fictional characters no doubt can handle both if the story so requires.

[adormitul]

While Sidious was very good at lightsaber combat he did like to use lighting more then a lightsaber later in his career as a Sith.

[RAVM]

While Sidious was very good at lightsaber combat he did like to use lighting more then a lightsaber later in his career as a Sith.

 

I chalk that up to age though. He stopped using his light saber when he turned into a decrepit old man.

[Kaedusz]

Does the games version of the Sorcerer make sense in lore?

 

No.It's an attempt to copy paste the mage/wizard/sorcerer/warlock concept of other games.

 

Force Lightning doesn't have anything to do with sorcery. In fact it would make more sense for ''warrior'' types to have the ability than than a Sith Sorcerer.

 

Sith Sorcery/magic mostly deals with abilities/spells that effect the mind and pure expressions of Dark Side power, alchemy and some other stuff which are not seen in the game.

 

the Corruption and the Madness trees of the Sorc have more in common with the lore definition of sorcery. Especially the Madness tree.The Lightning tree does not.

 

If you refer to the use of Lighsaber. All sith know how to handle it and don't neglect their training to use it. The in-game stuff is just a gameplay mechanic. Same goes for the Jedi Sage.

Edited August 17, 2015 by Kaedusz

[RAVM]

The lack of being effective with a lightsaver is for gameplay purposes. If the class was just as good with a lightsaber as with the force, then the class woukd be unbalanced.

 

Doesn't have to be like this. They could simply make our existing saber attack useful to use if an enemy gets in close. Not good enough that we'd forgo our ranged attacks and run up to someone and start using it, but when someone gets in melee range, you'd use it once as you start running away. I like the idea of each hit reducing the cooldown of force speed as one of the optional low tier passives.

Edited August 18, 2015 by RAVM

[ChazDoit]

No.It's an attempt to copy paste the mage/wizard/sorcerer/warlock concept of other games.

 

Force Lightning doesn't have anything to do with sorcery. In fact it would make more sense for ''warrior'' types to have the ability than than a Sith Sorcerer.

 

Sith Sorcery/magic mostly deals with abilities/spells that effect the mind and pure expressions of Dark Side power, alchemy and some other stuff which are not seen in the game.

 

the Corruption and the Madness trees of the Sorc have more in common with the lore definition of sorcery. Especially the Madness tree.The Lightning tree does not.

 

If you refer to the use of Lighsaber. All sith know how to handle it and don't neglect their training to use it. The in-game stuff is just a gameplay mechanic. Same goes for the Jedi Sage.

 

Yeah, lorewise I imagine Nox/Occlus/Imperius is an amazing duelist since he defeated Lord Paladius in a lightsaber battle while his connection to the force was being severed.

[CrutchCricket]

No.It's an attempt to copy paste the mage/wizard/sorcerer/warlock concept of other games.

 

Force Lightning doesn't have anything to do with sorcery. In fact it would make more sense for ''warrior'' types to have the ability than than a Sith Sorcerer.

 

Sith Sorcery/magic mostly deals with abilities/spells that effect the mind and pure expressions of Dark Side power, alchemy and some other stuff which are not seen in the game.

While this is true, saying Force Lightning is more for warriors is a little misleading.

 

Any Sith powerful enough and not overburdened by cybernetics can use Force lightning. Even Jedi can do it though they see it as fundamentally dark. The inquisitor being so strongly associated with lightning is less about the lore of sorcery and more about the archetype he's supposed to copy, namely Palpatine.

 

However it could be argued that due to the corrupting effects it has, or even the fact that it's pure Force energy being channeled as electricity, sorcerers who are supposed to have an affinity for the dark side itself should be more proficient in lightning than your average Sith, being able to summon more potent bolts or simply having an easier time with it.

[Kaedusz]

While this is true, saying Force Lightning is more for warriors is a little misleading.

 

Any Sith powerful enough and not overburdened by cybernetics can use Force lightning. Even Jedi can do it though they see it as fundamentally dark. The inquisitor being so strongly associated with lightning is less about the lore of sorcery and more about the archetype he's supposed to copy, namely Palpatine.

 

However it could be argued that due to the corrupting effects it has, or even the fact that it's pure Force energy being channeled as electricity, sorcerers who are supposed to have an affinity for the dark side itself should be more proficient in lightning than your average Sith, being able to summon more potent bolts or simply having an easier time with it.

So having a certain type of Sith called Sorcerer and giving him Lightning,which it's fair to say has absolutely nothing to do with sorcery, as a signature move, doesn't make sense lore wise. That was my point.

What would make sense lore was is to give Lightning to all Sith classes, but meh, that ship has probably sailed.

 

''Afinity for the dark side itself'' doesn't have anything to do with Force Lightning. This ''affinity'' translates to other force talents . Sorcery focuses the dark side with spell casting,incantations,rituals and stuff, which the warrior doesn't deal with, much. Generally these spells summon manifestations of the dark side which are mystical and esoteric in nature. FS is elemental power fueled by the dark side. Big difference.

 

Yes FS can be called a bread and butter dark side ability but still, FS is part of a sphere of Force Talents which more commonly have more to do with what a ''sith warrior'' type's repertoire is, not a ''sorcerer'' type. Even Plagueis isn't a sorcerer.

 

Example for a sorcerer : Aleema Keto, Zannah

Example for a warrior : Bane

Edited August 21, 2015 by Kaedusz

[Rhyltran]

So having a certain type of Sith called Sorcerer and giving him Lightning,which it's fair to say has absolutely nothing to do with sorcery, as a signature move, doesn't make sense lore wise. That was my point.

What would make sense lore was is to give Lightning to all Sith classes, but meh, that ship has probably sailed.

 

''Afinity for the dark side itself'' doesn't have anything to do with Force Lightning. This ''affinity'' translates to other force talents . Sorcery focuses the dark side with spell casting,incantations,rituals and stuff, which the warrior doesn't deal with, much. Generally these spells summon manifestations of the dark side which are mystical and esoteric in nature. FS is elemental power fueled by the dark side. Big difference.

 

Yes FS can be called a bread and butter dark side ability but still, FS is part of a sphere of Force Talents which more commonly have more to do with what a ''sith warrior'' type's repertoire is, not a ''sorcerer'' type. Even Plagueis isn't a sorcerer.

 

Example for a sorcerer : Aleema Keto, Zannah

Example for a warrior : Bane

 

 

Truth be told the closest we see the sorcerer even in the story do anything close to sorcery is when he/she is experimenting on the relics in the Makeb cut scene. Eating ghosts isn't so much sorcery and is more of an esoteric force ability. You can argue the pack that allows them to be truly unbound (the blood sacrifice) some form of sorcery but the actual power to absorb them is simply a rare ability.

 

Kallig even states it's something natural to the character that you have a rare "gift" and implores you to seek it out. Sorcery is never something that is innate. Even the Madness tree has nothing to do with sorcery because it's mostly using the force drain abilities which aren't sorcery either.

 

I'll probably get a lot of flack for saying this but really Zash shows knowledge of sorcery as does Thanaton but not our character.

 

The problem is I can't think of any other lore appropriate names they could have given the sorcerer that would have sounded good. Force Lord (like the gear you get in SOR)? Dark Master? I have no idea. Sorcerer atleast sounds good.

Edited August 21, 2015 by Rhyltran

[CrutchCricket]

''Afinity for the dark side itself'' doesn't have anything to do with Force Lightning. This ''affinity'' translates to other force talents . Sorcery focuses the dark side with spell casting,incantations,rituals and stuff, which the warrior doesn't deal with, much. Generally these spells summon manifestations of the dark side which are mystical and esoteric in nature. FS is elemental power fueled by the dark side. Big difference.

 

Yes FS can be called a bread and butter dark side ability but still, FS is part of a sphere of Force Talents which more commonly have more to do with what a ''sith warrior'' type's repertoire is, not a ''sorcerer'' type. Even Plagueis isn't a sorcerer.

 

Example for a sorcerer : Aleema Keto, Zannah

Example for a warrior : Bane

I guess what I'm saying is "affinity for the darkside" would be secondary stat boost to Force Lightning, not necessarily a primary one. To use game terminology.

 

Probably my other objection to the way you've phrased things, not necessarily to the content, is treating "sorcerer" and "warrior" as hard lore classes. I don't think they're "classes" in the same way. I think most Sith are "warrior" types by default- they can fight with a lightsaber they can use telekinesis and lightning in direct combat etc. A "sorcerer" on the other hand is a specialization, a set of rare talents only a few have access to.

 

Kallig even states it's something natural to the character that you have a rare "gift" and implores you to seek it out. Sorcery is never something that is innate. Even the Madness tree has nothing to do with sorcery because it's mostly using the force drain abilities which aren't sorcery either.

 

The problem is I can't think of any other lore appropriate names they could have given the sorcerer that would have sounded good. Force Lord (like the gear you get in SOR)? Dark Master? I have no idea. Sorcerer atleast sounds good.

The affinity, or potential for sorcery is innate. The skills themselves are learned through spells and rituals.

 

Kallig has the potential to eat ghosts. But he still does it through the Force-walking ritual. I think that counts.

 

As for titles, given how the Inquisitor story plays out, the breakdown really would have them land on the side of "Dark Lord". Like in the Bane trillogy, Kallig has the potential to become a full Dark Lord of the Sith as opposed to a mere combat minion or assassin. Of course then, picking Assassin as your AC wouldn't make much sense and the Warriors would feel left out.

 

Ultimately I guess they felt sorcerer was close enough. You're a caster so traditionally that makes sense. You have stuff that might qualify and story wise you're very much around sorcery type stuff. And it's possible there's not a lot of actual sorcery that might translate into fun combat gameplay, or be "Star Wars-y" enough to the casual fan. How would "a blast of pure dark side energy" be visually depicted? Given what we see, probably a purple hadoken. If that happened, you'd have a lot more casuals screaming 'this ain't Star Wars" than you currently have hardcore nerds going "umm, actually this isn't sorcery" while furiously pointing to Wookiepedia and/or the comics.

[Rhyltran]

I guess what I'm saying is "affinity for the darkside" would be secondary stat boost to Force Lightning, not necessarily a primary one. To use game terminology.

 

Probably my other objection to the way you've phrased things, not necessarily to the content, is treating "sorcerer" and "warrior" as hard lore classes. I don't think they're "classes" in the same way. I think most Sith are "warrior" types by default- they can fight with a lightsaber they can use telekinesis and lightning in direct combat etc. A "sorcerer" on the other hand is a specialization, a set of rare talents only a few have access to.

 

 

The affinity, or potential for sorcery is innate. The skills themselves are learned through spells and rituals.

 

Kallig has the potential to eat ghosts. But he still does it through the Force-walking ritual. I think that counts.

 

As for titles, given how the Inquisitor story plays out, the breakdown really would have them land on the side of "Dark Lord". Like in the Bane trillogy, Kallig has the potential to become a full Dark Lord of the Sith as opposed to a mere combat minion or assassin. Of course then, picking Assassin as your AC wouldn't make much sense and the Warriors would feel left out.

 

Ultimately I guess they felt sorcerer was close enough. You're a caster so traditionally that makes sense. You have stuff that might qualify and story wise you're very much around sorcery type stuff. And it's possible there's not a lot of actual sorcery that might translate into fun combat gameplay, or be "Star Wars-y" enough to the casual fan. How would "a blast of pure dark side energy" be visually depicted? Given what we see, probably a purple hadoken. If that happened, you'd have a lot more casuals screaming 'this ain't Star Wars" than you currently have hardcore nerds going "umm, actually this isn't sorcery" while furiously pointing to Wookiepedia and/or the comics.

 

Actually the Sith Warrior can fire blasts of dark side energy. It's red instead of purple. As for the flow walking ritual I brought that up. The only time it's a ritual is if you do the pack where you can or can't release them. The lightside choice. The dark side choice you literally just use the force to subjugate and eat them. In most cases rituals/sorcery in star wars requires time to prepare and the use of relics/artifacts. So it's pretty interesting. My point is that I was agreeing with Kae that the name "sorcerer" isn't exactly the most accurate name for the class. As for Kallig not making sense as an assassin why not? The warrior isn't some mere minion either and there's members of the council who are viewed as "Warriors", "assassins", and "other."