For those who criticize Bioware for focusing on story/solo play......

[AlrikFassbauer]

I'll say it again, at the end of the day the only thing EA cares about is making money. If they find out that people want to play as unicorns on a planet full of rainbows and butterflies, if that is what the data/community/focus groups is telling them....then by all means the next expansion would feature unicorn mounts and sending players to a new planet full of.....rainbows and butterflies.

 

I guess so, yes.

 

Besides, I'm writing stories about Unicorns from time to time.

[DarthSabreth]

Also, much of the current end game content is gated behind inconvenient measures.

 

Lockouts.

Enforced/Encouraged 'too large' guilds that discourage use of various group finders so queuing can take too long.

PVP Queueing issues because a lack of cross server play..

 

ETC.

 

Limitations based on devs not listening to players for _years_ about what dissatisfied them while devs happily pushed out stuff customers said they didn't want/need.

 

When I am sitting, waiting, in a queue I am going to do something.. anything.. to pass the time. All the game activities are relatively boring at cap when you are sitting/waiting... so you're either going to run dailies until your eyes bleed, or you're going to say screw it and make an alt and level them and put them in queues for pvp or Fp's or whatever so at least you can feel like you are doing something different and productive with your time.

 

Imam still surprised that this company absorbed so many people associated with Mythic/DAoC and couldn't not see the potential of the Galactic Conflict™ and instead went with the stupid WoW model of PVP.

 

This last misstep will likely be their last for me. I'll give it a go once, but I am already disappointed because the game they are making is NOT the game I have been paying for since release.

 

This is a very nice post, one of the things people including me have been clamoring for from the beginning is that in the original KOTOR games there was SWOOP racing and Pazzak games. they can be made as not only que-able PVP games but also as NPC games as well like in the original games. this would more than sate some boredom as you don't have to wait on others if you just want a few quick games or just to practice. it would open up the possibility of having new professions of making swoop bikes or pazzak cards, the possibilities could be quite vast. they cant say they don't know how being they already have some framework set up on ziost with the supped up speeder and the green arrows on the ground.

Edited August 16, 2015 by DarthSabreth

[jpswtor]

It might be true stat story is the main reason for people to keep grinding alts, because there is so little to do in the so called "eldergame".

 

However, if story was that important, why not continue with the 8 story lines instead of just having one for all?

 

Imagine you have 20 something alts because you enjoyed the eight class story lines.

 

With the new expansion, they give you: Nothing to do in a group (no new eldergame content) and a forced(!) solo mode single story line for all your 20 something alts. They are going to remove most of your companions and all your previous story won't matter any more, because all that counts now is that you are "The Outlander". That is going to be fun grinding through with your 20 alts while you wait for the next "Ziost" style chapter to look forward to.

 

I am going to stay subscribed to see, what is going to happen. But I fear for the worst.

 

Cheers

 

JP

[Max_Killjoy]

Bioware often mistakes how players respond to content, for what players wanted out of the game.

 

For example, Bioware tries space combat twice, does a bad job of it and barely supports it both times.

 

Players quickly abandon space combat both times.

 

Bioware assumes this means that players don't want space combat.

 

 

Edited August 16, 2015 by Max_Killjoy

[Majestic_Jazz]

Did it ever occur to you that people rerun alts constantly as there is so little endgame content?

 

If their metrics are correct, and one has to always raise an eyebrow at BWs interpretation of their own statistics, the real question needs to be, why are people having to rerun the same content over and over, at the expense of anything more fun for them to do once they hit level cap.

 

Thats not why I run "alts". I do so cause I am not interested in running ops or just doing PvP. I go back and play the 1-50 stories causr I wanted to see the other stories and make different choices.

 

Again, you are only against the metrics because they do not justify your opinion.

 

You make the mistake of believing that everyone who plays SWTOR are mmo purist who believes that MMOs are all about endgame pvp and raids. Your forget that unlike most other mmos, SWTOR has a cross over appeal to gamers who normally would never even look at a MMO and thus playing the stories with some supplemental ops and warzones is what they prefer.

Edited August 16, 2015 by Majestic_Jazz

[Jeweledleah]

Thats not why I run "alts". I do so cause I am not interested in running ops or just doing PvP. I go back and play the 1-50 stories causr I wanted to see the other stories and make different choices.

 

Again, you are only against the metrics because they do not justify your opinion.

 

You make the mistake of believing that everyone who plays SWTOR are mmo purist who believes that MMOs are all about endgame pvp and raids. Your forget that unlike most other mmos, SWTOR has a cross over appeal to gamers who normally would never even look at a MMO and thus playing the stories with some supplemental ops and warzones is what they prefer.

 

and you make a mistake of dismissing people who may play their alts for the reasons stated in a post you reply to. and those people also contribute to metrics.

 

interpretation of the metrics by bioware is the problem here.

 

like Max above there said. they TOO like to interpret the metrics in a way that they wish, rather than based on reality those metrics represent.

 

while yes, SWTOR does appeal most to the hybrid sort of crowd, please don't just dismiss out of hand people who while enjoying the storied ALSO very much enjoy group content. and its GROUP CONTENT that keeps them subscribed. seeing as stories do not require subscription in order to comfortably level through.

[Kakisback]

Did it ever occur to you that people rerun alts constantly as there is so little endgame content?

 

If their metrics are correct, and one has to always raise an eyebrow at BWs interpretation of their own statistics, the real question needs to be, why are people having to rerun the same content over and over, at the expense of anything more fun for them to do once they hit level cap.

 

This man speaks the truth. You can't not make an endgame, and then claim that people aren't doing the endgame, therefore they must fundamentally not care about endgame in general.

Edited August 16, 2015 by Kakisback

[Khevar]

If "metrics" were truly driving the expansion, and these metrics indicated players were running the class stories, wouldn't it dictate extending the 8 class stories rather then combing them into one?

 

I can understand that they may not have resources to continue 8 class stories -- but it seems a bit "smoke and mirrors" to point at metrics if you're not going to produce more of the content those metrics say players are doing ...

[Max_Killjoy]

If "metrics" were truly driving the expansion, and these metrics indicated players were running the class stories, wouldn't it dictate extending the 8 class stories rather then combing them into one?

 

I can understand that they may not have resources to continue 8 class stories -- but it seems a bit "smoke and mirrors" to point at metrics if you're not going to produce more of the content those metrics say players are doing ...

 

 

It's entirely disingenuous on Bioware's part -- "the metrics" are just an excuse, or they're terrible at parsing knowledge out of raw data.

 

In other words, they're lying to us, or they're lying to themselves.

Edited August 16, 2015 by Max_Killjoy

[SilliaVanillia]

It's entirely disingenuous on Bioware's part -- "the metrics" are just an excuse, or they're terrible at parsing knowledge out of raw data.

 

In other words, they're lying to us, or they're lying to themselves.

 

I can think of many words used to describe people who dismiss statistics and methodology without ever actually seeing them, but "accurate" has never been one of them.

[Max_Killjoy]

I can think of many words used to describe people who dismiss statistics and methodology without ever actually seeing them, but "accurate" has never been one of them.

 

We've all played the game, and we've all seen the results of their "metrics".

 

If someone says "Our studies show that most Americans prefer Gregorian chants played backwards for music, and burlap for their clothing", we don't need to see their statistics or methodology to know that they're wrong.

 

If a restaurant chain starts using beef byproduct full of bone chips and tendon chunks to make their burgers, and then claims that "sales results show that Americans don't like hamburgers", we don't need to see their statistics or methodology to understand that they are making a flawed assumption regarding the reason their burgers aren't selling.

Edited August 16, 2015 by Max_Killjoy

[SilliaVanillia]

We've all played the game, and we've all seen the results of their "metrics".

 

I'm sure it will be true if you just believe in it hard enough.

[ScarletBlaze]

The OP has it exactly right. Plus, it's not like group content is going away. It will still be there for those who want it just like the FP's for SoR are both solo and group versions. Story is what the majority of SWTOR players want. We don't want a carbon copy of raid-centric, PvP-centric content at higher levels where all it is is going from one raid or battleground to the next ad nausea doing the gear grind. While I understand that's what some folks want, there are a TON of MMO's out there to cater to that. SWTOR is taking an innovative approach and appealing to a different audience which has been largely ignored in most other games once they get to end-game material. Frankly, I applaud this new direction that takes SWTOR away from the stereotypical "grind, grind, and more grind" and even further into story, immersion, etc. It's one of the FEW who really can say that and it's nice to know there is an truely story-driven MMO to play.

 

There is one drawback with this as when you group for Yavin, Rishi and Ziost for the story you have to do it twice or more depending on how many are in the group. While my boyfriend and I will do it , we would have preferred having an option to do it once for both of us.

 

 

Even doing the Dailies on Yavin, the Revan Weekly has to be ran more than once if you are in a group for it to count for each person.

Edited August 16, 2015 by ScarletBlaze

[Glower]

If a restaurant chain starts using beef byproduct full of bone chips and tendon chunks to make their burgers, and then claims that "sales results show that Americans don't like hamburgers", we don't need to see their statistics or methodology to understand that they are making a flawed assumption regarding the reason their burgers aren't selling.

 

A very nice analogy!

[Max_Killjoy]

I'm sure it will be true if you just believe in it hard enough.

 

Ironic. Oh well.

 

----

 

If someone says "Our studies show that most Americans prefer Gregorian chants played backwards for music, and burlap for their clothing", we don't need to see their statistics or methodology to know that they're wrong.

 

If a restaurant chain starts using beef byproduct full of bone chips and tendon chunks to make their burgers, and then claims that "sales results show that Americans don't like hamburgers", we don't need to see their statistics or methodology to understand that they are making a flawed assumption regarding the reason their burgers aren't selling.

 

----

 

It's not that people don't want or like certain sorts of content, it's that Bioware no longer has any understanding of or regard for even the most basic notions of quality.

Edited August 16, 2015 by Max_Killjoy

[AshenK]

If people wanted story then why do I see more posts demanding more and harder group content, more pvp content, more open worlds and the like?

 

Bioware is shooting the game by deciding solo story play is a good thing.

[Kurkina]

While my boyfriend and I will do it , we would have preferred having an option to do it once for both of us.

 

Too much information.

[Toraak]

People who are saying these metrics are made up or wrong are stupid. Yes, you are stupid for thinking that, and you should feel bad.

 

BioWare is in the business of making money. They are always going to make the decision that they feel will make them the most money. They wouldn't be doing a largely single player expansion in an MMO if they didn't believe it would make them more money than focusing on multiplayer content.

 

I'm part of those metrics. I only play the stories. I play them by myself or I play them with friends, but I only do those. Operations are a waste of my time. When I finish the story on one character, I start a new one. I know several people who do that too, and they don't post on the forums.

 

I could barely be bothered to post myself. I guess it's easy for the forums to look lopsided towards one side or another when a certain subset of people are in outrage mode.

 

Get over it guys, just like PvPers, the people who do end game progression and such were never the majority, and never mattered as much as the rest of us.

 

Please feel free to be mad about it, to post about it endlessly, or to simply get over it. I don't care, and I doubt BioWare does either. And stop calling BioWare liars, it's illogical. Why would they lie about it, what nefarious purpose could they have on focusing on a part of the game that no one will want to play? It makes no sense.

 

They want money, and they're taking the sure bet. KOTFE coming out and focusing on story is a significant part of what brought me back after 2 years, and I have three friends who have done the same thing.

 

Sorry.

 

here's a question for you then. I have made 22 characters on a server since last October all 12x XP. I went through the story for every Advanced class + the 6 other spots because it was faster leveling. Now knowing this did I really do the story by Spacebarring content that I had alrdy seen on my 16 characters on other servers? The answer is no. I didn't. so by any metrics BW has they could assume I was into story, when in fact I was just messing around making a ton of alts on another server to get rdy to raid on leveling them as fast as I possibly could.

 

This is just an example of how metrics can be interpreted incorrectly. I play this game for Group Content, and GSF.

Edited August 16, 2015 by Toraak

[Majestic_Jazz]

and you make a mistake of dismissing people who may play their alts for the reasons stated in a post you reply to. and those people also contribute to metrics.

 

interpretation of the metrics by bioware is the problem here.

 

like Max above there said. they TOO like to interpret the metrics in a way that they wish, rather than based on reality those metrics represent.

 

while yes, SWTOR does appeal most to the hybrid sort of crowd, please don't just dismiss out of hand people who while enjoying the storied ALSO very much enjoy group content. and its GROUP CONTENT that keeps them subscribed. seeing as stories do not require subscription in order to comfortably level through.

 

That is your OPINION!

 

If Bioware said the metrics pointed to more people playing OPS and Warzones and thus made that the focus of KotFE, I doubt you will be claiming that BIoware's interpretation of the metrics are wrong.

 

They are only wrong because they do not support your playstyle.

[Jeweledleah]

That is your OPINION!

 

If Bioware said the metrics pointed to more people playing OPS and Warzones and thus made that the focus of KotFE, I doubt you will be claiming that BIoware's interpretation of the metrics are wrong.

 

They are only wrong because they do not support your playstyle.

 

my playstyle is mixed. I play both story and ops. if bioware focused solely on ops and pvp in KoTFE, I would be right there, asking them what the hell?

 

however, YOU seem to be in denial.

 

there is NOT enough at max level group content to do. we have 2 new ops and two new flashpoints. everything else? is rehash of old stuff. and new is well... we had the same 2 ops and 2 flashpoints for nearly a year now.

 

moreover. at least leveling alts is faster now, with 12xp. if you think that didn't have anything to do with people playing alts more? I have a bridge in Brooklyn to sell you.

 

bioware has got to stop using metrics as an excuse to tunnel vision. people want story, yes, but they also want things to do once they are done with the story. becasue you see, that's the problem with the story. unless you are dedicated alcoholic for whatever reason? you will be done with it mighty fast. and you CANNOT replay it.

 

and for people who roll alts becasue they want to have backups for ops running etc? what is THEIR incentive to level those alts, when there are no new ops?

 

focusing in a single aspect of the MMO and trying to excuse it with "metrics" when those metrics are based of lacking content to begin with? is setting yourself up for failure.

 

to add to Max's analogy..

 

its like keeping a public pool in a horrible dirty condition, just pouring some water in and just leaving it be, to get moldy and disgusting. and then claiming that people don't like to swim.

[Majestic_Jazz]

my playstyle is mixed. I play both story and ops. if bioware focused solely on ops and pvp in KoTFE, I would be right there, asking them what the hell?

 

however, YOU seem to be in denial.

 

there is NOT enough at max level group content to do. we have 2 new ops and two new flashpoints. everything else? is rehash of old stuff. and new is well... we had the same 2 ops and 2 flashpoints for nearly a year now.

 

moreover. at least leveling alts is faster now, with 12xp. if you think that didn't have anything to do with people playing alts more? I have a bridge in Brooklyn to sell you.

 

bioware has got to stop using metrics as an excuse to tunnel vision. people want story, yes, but they also want things to do once they are done with the story. becasue you see, that's the problem with the story. unless you are dedicated alcoholic for whatever reason? you will be done with it mighty fast. and you CANNOT replay it.

 

and for people who roll alts becasue they want to have backups for ops running etc? what is THEIR incentive to level those alts, when there are no new ops?

 

focusing in a single aspect of the MMO and trying to excuse it with "metrics" when those metrics are based of lacking content to begin with? is setting yourself up for failure.

 

to add to Max's analogy..

 

its like keeping a public pool in a horrible dirty condition, just pouring some water in and just leaving it be, to get moldy and disgusting. and then claiming that people don't like to swim.

 

You say "people" as if that includes everyone. Again, your opinion!

 

I have seen MANY people here say that they enjoy the direction that KotFE is taking and that they are resubbed because of KotFE, me included. So this belief that EVERYONE is against the direction of KotFE is just hyperbole that people who are against it want to create to generate some sort of widespread hysteria that KotFE is going to be the ultimate doom for SWTOR.

 

Again, people have been clinging to their doomsday predictions for SWTOR since January 2012. I am not surprised to see people still even in 2015 proclaiming the death of SWTOR.

[Khevar]

You say "people" as if that includes everyone. Again, your opinion!

 

I have seen MANY people here say that they enjoy the direction that KotFE is taking and that they are resubbed because of KotFE, me included. So this belief that EVERYONE is against the direction of KotFE is just hyperbole that people who are against it want to create to generate some sort of widespread hysteria that KotFE is going to be the ultimate doom for SWTOR.

 

Again, people have been clinging to their doomsday predictions for SWTOR since January 2012. I am not surprised to see people still even in 2015 proclaiming the death of SWTOR.

You are confusing a disagreement with the premise of this thread and doomsday predictions.

 

The posters you are quoting did not predict doomsday. Did not say everyone is against the direction of KotFE. In fact, I would hazard a guess that many people who are arguing against YOU may not even be in disagreement with what the devs are doing.

 

I myself have not canceled my sub. I will give KotFE a try. I hope it will be fun.

 

But I have no faith in the idea this is due to "metrics" or some such.

Edited August 16, 2015 by Khevar

[Jeweledleah]

You say "people" as if that includes everyone. Again, your opinion!

 

I have seen MANY people here say that they enjoy the direction that KotFE is taking and that they are resubbed because of KotFE, me included. So this belief that EVERYONE is against the direction of KotFE is just hyperbole that people who are against it want to create to generate some sort of widespread hysteria that KotFE is going to be the ultimate doom for SWTOR.

 

Again, people have been clinging to their doomsday predictions for SWTOR since January 2012. I am not surprised to see people still even in 2015 proclaiming the death of SWTOR.

 

where did I ever say "everyone"

 

I said people, as in multiple people.

 

now. take people who play more then just story and have those people leave, becasue they have nothing left to do. how long do you think bioware will be able to afford to maintain their 1 a month promised story updates or updates in general on pure solo players that are left to subscribe continuously? more over. how long will those solo players stay subscribed, once they figure out they don't have to in order to keep accessing that story? oh some will, out of loyalty and what not. and some won't.

 

is it a good bet? is it a financially viable bet?

 

are you willing to bet on continuation of your preferred mode of play having enough players willing to keep shelling out those $15 a month plus occasional cartel coin purchase of a fairly niche audience? given that while successful, swtor is already a niche MMO? stories, continuous stories with voice and cutscenes and diverging choices take a lot of time and effort to produce (why do you think we are not getting 8 individual stories anymore?). so do ops, mind you but ops tend to last a few months before people want more, unlike stories lasting a few hours. and pvp maps even more so.

 

I'm willing to bet that unless bioware does produce multiplayer content, NEW multiplayer content soon after KoTFE launch? they will end up losing too many subscribers they cannot afford to lose and will not be able to keep up with update schedule for the story that they promised anymore. that will not shut down the game. the game will stay active one way or another till its time to renew the license. but I for one would like it to be profitable enough so that that license renewal? was on the table, instead of ending up as another warhammer online (which was a better game then people give it credit for,k but without regular updates and some love, it lost too many players to get that license renewed. sadly )

[Majestic_Jazz]

where did I ever say "everyone"

 

I said people, as in multiple people.

 

now. take people who play more then just story and have those people leave, becasue they have nothing left to do. how long do you think bioware will be able to afford to maintain their 1 a month promised story updates or updates in general on pure solo players that are left to subscribe continuously? more over. how long will those solo players stay subscribed, once they figure out they don't have to in order to keep accessing that story? oh some will, out of loyalty and what not. and some won't.

 

is it a good bet? is it a financially viable bet?

 

are you willing to bet on continuation of your preferred mode of play having enough players willing to keep shelling out those $15 a month plus occasional cartel coin purchase of a fairly niche audience? given that while successful, swtor is already a niche MMO? stories, continuous stories with voice and cutscenes and diverging choices take a lot of time and effort to produce (why do you think we are not getting 8 individual stories anymore?). so do ops, mind you but ops tend to last a few months before people want more, unlike stories lasting a few hours. and pvp maps even more so.

 

I'm willing to bet that unless bioware does produce multiplayer content, NEW multiplayer content soon after KoTFE launch? they will end up losing too many subscribers they cannot afford to lose and will not be able to keep up with update schedule for the story that they promised anymore. that will not shut down the game. the game will stay active one way or another till its time to renew the license. but I for one would like it to be profitable enough so that that license renewal? was on the table, instead of ending up as another warhammer online (which was a better game then people give it credit for,k but without regular updates and some love, it lost too many players to get that license renewed. sadly )

 

I am one of those people who "only play story" and I plan on staying around for the long haul as long as Bioware continues to update the stories. They could be either chapters or solo-style flashpoints like Forged Alliance/SoR/Ziost. Do I need updates every month? No, because in between updates, I will still have a total of 4 characters to go back and replay various stories and make different decisions ALL WHILE also jumping into Warzones and a few OPS from time to time.

 

So again, this idea that players like me will just get bored and leave will crazy. People will and can get bored no matter what. If KotFE was OPS focused, whos to say that the raiders might not get bored and move onto something else? If KotFE was Warzone focused, whos to say that PvPers won't get bored and move on?

 

Again, to me this all just seems like an attack on solo-players and somehow believing that we aren't legitimate consumers who can carry this game.

 

Finally, when did Bioware every state that there will be no more new OPS? When did Bioware ever state that there will never be no new Warzones? Last I heard, they just said that in KotFE, there will be no new OPS or Warzones, but whos to say that in 2016, the major updates will not be centered around Warzones or OPS? Again, more hyperbole that solo-play is somehow going to take over and ruin this game.

[D-Jay]

That is your OPINION!

 

If Bioware said the metrics pointed to more people playing OPS and Warzones and thus made that the focus of KotFE, I doubt you will be claiming that BIoware's interpretation of the metrics are wrong.

 

They are only wrong because they do not support your playstyle.

 

Did Warzones get a x12 boost. No

Did OPs get a x12 xp boost. No

Did GSF get a x12 xp boost. No

Was story only x12 exp boost to manipulate metrics to support their chosen direction for the game? Who knows, but to harp on about metrics when the playing field is so unbalanced is pretty silly.