Why combining main-stats is neither bad nor "dumbing down' anything.

[KorbanShepard]

First off, we have four main-stats:

Aim, Cunning, Strength, and Willpower. None of these stats really do anything different with the exception that they only apply to one of four general classes.

 

This actually has created a problem and possibly still can within the game which is confusion among new players into thinking that the stats actually matter beyond what class your in or failing to recognize that without your class's main-stat , you lose the benefit of said stat.

I don't know about any of you, but I have memories of prior to 12xp running through various flashpoints where people were either running with characters with the wrong stats (and sometimes in roles such as tank or healer which IMO can be a good deal more disastrous than dps given the necessity of those roles during some boss fights) or they were needing on gear that didn't fit their character whatsoever.

 

The solution that Bioware Austin might be presenting will fix two problems for two parties.

 

For party A, the experienced player, you will no longer be running in a flashpoint with a completely (keyword here) improperly geared player. You now only have to worry about general competence, spec for said role, and whether or not they are using an armor less than what their class needs (though I suspect this may be fixed in the upcoming expac anyway). Also, now they can't need on gear that they can't use.

Thereby everybody has an equal chance at the gear. At least now, I can simply rage over the odds of getting that gear vs some idiot who selected it just because.

 

For party B, no longer will you be kicked because you are incompetently wearing the completely improperly stated gear. Now you will just be kicked from group missions because you are incompetent in some other way. The same goes with needing on gear.

 

On why this isn't dumbing down anything, to dumb the concept of the main-stat down implies that there was something intelligent behind that main-stat in the first place. The main-stat was only ever a concept copied and pasted from other MMO's that in this particular one did absolutely no favors for. It's not as if any of the class had any kind of defined roles that defined the stats.

At least 4 playable classes have the option of being one of all 3 roles depending upon your AC choice. So, please explain how Willpower, a stat that both impacts the melee shadow/assassin, or tank and dps, and simultaneously the ranged sorcorer/sage, or healer and dps, has any relevance other than it was arbitrarily attributed to that class and that class alone.

 

These stats may still make sense if BW was seeking to force a certain aesthetic to each of the classes, but clearly, and fortunately, Bioware came to the conclusion that character customization is far more important and that the Star Wars universe does have precedents for different outfits.

So, since these stats are relatively meaningless in the first place and do more to hinder group play than much else, they don't serve a purpose that helps the game or the player.

 

If you think somehow that the complexity makes things smarter then I have to question your intelligence. The simplest solution is usually the correct one and the best. If you're making things arbitrarily more complex without a noticeable benefit then you are truly being inefficient. How is that by any standard intelligent?

Edited August 14, 2015 by KorbanShepard

[branmakmuffin]

I have a hunch I agree with you, but ...

 

... my eyes!

[ThorgrimLutgen]

You'll be wanting rid of the trinity next.

[KorbanShepard]

You'll be wanting rid of the trinity next.

 

I'm glad you read the post since I in no way indicated that the trinity should be eliminated. The trinity has usefulness by creating different avenues for different playing styles. It gives the player more options. What did the main stat do that was so important?

Edited August 13, 2015 by KorbanShepard
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[Diviciacus]

The change is not dumbing down the classes, because mechanically each mainstat does the same thing. However, it most certainly IS bad. It causes class flavor homogeneity. And that's what people don't like (even if they aren't capable of properly articulating their concern). Most abilities are just the same mechanics with a different skin - mirrored classes between Republic and Empire make this the most obvious that FLAVOR is all that matters.

 

Let me give you an example that's cross-class, rather than mirror, to really drive the point home: The Sentinel/Marauder ability Force Melt/Rend is literally identical mechanically to Sage/Sorceror Weaken Mind/Affliction. 18-second duration, damage over time ability, no CD. Fire and forget for twelve global cooldowns. (Ignoring the 3.2.1 change of Force Melt/Rend which removed three seconds of duration [one tick of damage]; for the vast majority of the game's life, these two spells were identical mechanically.)

 

Easiest fix (although it is far too late to change away from this mastery crap now) is to do two things:

 

First, get rid of primary stats that are not THE primary stat for a class providing benefits. For a Knight/Warrior, for example, Strength should provide Force-ability boosts, NOT Willpower like it currently does. This prevents people from reading the tooltips and erroneously choosing the wrong gear.

 

Second, make it godsdamned obvious which primary stat a class uses. Don't stick that **** in a hint or a codex entry no one reads. Throw it in their face.

[branmakmuffin]

The change is not dumbing down the classes, because mechanically each mainstat does the same thing. However, it most certainly IS bad.

Your argument is entirely and thoroughly unpersuasive and smacks of Chicken Little-ism

Edited August 13, 2015 by branmakmuffin

[Neglience]

Getting one piece of armor set that is interchangeable between all characters and all companions is dumping down the game.

[KorbanShepard]

Diviciacus,

 

I get what you mean, but even then, the main-stat is just the illusion of difference not the reality. Besides, as the classes go, yeah the outcomes are largely the same regardless of which class you choose (or at least should be), but it seems undeniable that the playstyle is different for each class. For me, I really like the tank specs (haven't tried a Vanguard/Powertech yet), but clearly, there is a difference in playing a Shadow tank vs a Guardian tank. They may ultimately have the same function, but the way in which you get there is different enough to keep it a little interesting.

 

As far as gear homogeny goes, it doesn't apply to tertiary stats, and in some ways to the secondary stat (really just a question of whether you're a tank or not though), but the main-stat is irrelevant with adaptive shells. It's just a different stat for no other purpose than being arbitrary that only served a purpose when gear was specific to your class. Now though, as you have the cartel packs with adaptive armor, what purpose does that serve? Personally, I'm glad that I don't have to put robes on my Jedi Knight. He roles in Canderous' shirt unless he happens to be on Hoth.

[TUXs]

Getting one piece of armor set that is interchangeable between all characters and all companions is dumping down the game.

This right here. To argue it's not is just ludicrous.

 

That being said...I only use Legacy gear as it is, so this changes nothing for me really. Good? Bad? Meh...

[KorbanShepard]

Getting one piece of armor set that is interchangeable between all characters and all companions is dumping down the game.

 

But that's practically already happened. That's just the point. I mean, tertiary stats are only so relevant anyways until end game and for the rest of the leveling experience most people aren't going to be focused on them but so much. It won't be til then that the different in what tertiary stat you choose will best suit your AC's gameplay. So, before that, what's the difference? And what's the difference in mainstat anyways?

 

As I pointed out, you're buying into this concept that further complexity equals smarter. That's not true by any standard. Consider bacteria, that's an organism that is diversified to the point that it can survive in incredibly extreme environments. The rest of the Earth could be dead and gone, but bacteria can still survive due to the simplicity of the organism giving it a better chance of adaptability. Whereas us humans, yeah, we have the ability to modify the immediate environment around us, but not to modify ourselves to live long term in extreme environments thus giving us a lower chance of survival by comparison.

Edited August 13, 2015 by KorbanShepard

[Zharik]

Unless set bonuses are going away, all this does is free up more people to possibly use the random drops from bosses (not the token pieces, the other stuff).

 

Not a bad thing at all.

[TheWookiee]

I don't have an issue with the combining of the main stats.I'm all for that. Will make it easier to gear companions, alts, etc.

 

What bothers me is if they start to mess around with the secondary stats (Power, Accuracy, crit, etc.) This is where fine tuning and experimenting with your stats for optimal performance happens. I like the idea of having several different stats to mix and match as well as the complexity to do this fine tuning. It's a small thing that can give a slight edge.

 

Combining these and/or removing would be a step in the wrong direction. That is just gross over simplification that isn't really neccessary.

[KorbanShepard]

This right here. To argue it's not is just ludicrous..

 

If main stats are already the same thing, really they are, and the difference is just an arbitrary attribution to different story characters, then the dumbing down has already occurred and was already there. It's not as if the main stat has ever actually attributed to some kind of innovative gameplay. The classes themselves do that and the mainstat is just a made up attribute that really doesn't have an effect other than to separate armor types for a game in which aesthetic of armor still mattered.

Now if the mainstat actually impacted your gameplay regardless of class in a sense that all of them could be useful in some way, reducing them to mastery would be dumbing them down, but that's not the case. The mainstat was dumbed down in the first place it was only ever the illusion of complexity not an innovative stat that mattered.

[KorbanShepard]

I don't have an issue with the combining of the main stats.I'm all for that. Will make it easier to gear companions, alts, etc.

 

What bothers me is if they start to mess around with the secondary stats (Power, Accuracy, crit, etc.) This is where fine tuning and experimenting with your stats for optimal performance happens. I like the idea of having several different stats to mix and match as well as the complexity to do this fine tuning. It's a small thing that can give a slight edge.

 

Combining these and/or removing would be a step in the wrong direction. That is just gross over simplification that isn't really neccessary.

 

Yeah, that's relevant and I, too, want more information on that bit then what they've given. I just take issue with people complaining about a mainstat as if any of the mainstats really ever mattered beyond an arbitrary distinction.

[Shadix]

Aim does for a bounty hunter what willpower does for an inquisitor. Now, mastery does for both what individual stats did before. It doesn't change anything other than the name of the main stat.

 

When the game first released, class identity was more tied to armor type (light, medium, heavy). The cartel market took away class distinction way before this main stat change. Any class can look like any class, and that was something special in the beginning. That was a more homogeneous change than this by far.

[TUXs]

Aim does for a bounty hunter what willpower does for an inquisitor. Now, mastery does for both what individual stats did before. It doesn't change anything other than the name of the main stat.

Of course it changes things lol. You're going from 2-stats, in the above example, to 1. You're reducing the number of times players will need to do end game content to get the correct stats.

 

I'm not against it, but to say it doesn't change anything is disingenuous. It clearly does.

[Shadix]

Of course it changes things lol. You're going from 2-stats, in the above example, to 1. You're reducing the number of times players will need to do end game content to get the correct stats.

 

I'm not against it, but to say it doesn't change anything is disingenuous. It clearly does.

 

You still have armor type and secondary stats (afaik) to keep you repeating end game content. For example, if you're a vanguard tank you're likely not going to roll on a light armor mastery item with no defensive stats.

[tharbison]

I agree with op, replacing primary stats with main stats really doesn't matter. If anything, now I can use all of my comps instead of just one as I level since I typically only bother to gear one. These changes to mainstat imply that gear may be interchangable, so, I could just swap gear between whichever companion I need at the time.

 

But we need to wait and see how this is implemented. I don't see gear being usable by everyone, even though everyone now shares the same 'mainstat'. I see some type of class restrictions attached to gear - i.e. for gear that was formerly 'Aim', that wold be replaced by 'mainstat' and 'Trooper/Bounty Hunter' restriction. Or...maybe not. Who knows.

[TheWookiee]

Of course it changes things lol. You're going from 2-stats, in the above example, to 1. You're reducing the number of times players will need to do end game content to get the correct stats.

 

I'm not against it, but to say it doesn't change anything is disingenuous. It clearly does.

 

Honestly, I have been doing progression raiding for almost the entire game this has been out. Never have I geared more than 3 toons out in OPS gear in that whole time. Same can be said for the majority of the guild I am in. Most grind out only 1 or 2 toons for raiding. I don't see "Gearing too quickly" as a legitimate reason against combining mainstats. As far as gearing through story content, I don't see this being affected at all. People will run the content on whatever character until its boring then move to something else.

[TUXs]

Honestly, I have been doing progression raiding for almost the entire game this has been out. Never have I geared more than 3 toons out in OPS gear in that whole time. Same can be said for the majority of the guild I am in. Most grind out only 1 or 2 toons for raiding. I don't see "Gearing too quickly" as a legitimate reason against combining mainstats. As far as gearing through story content, I don't see this being affected at all. People will run the content on whatever character until its boring then move to something else.

Good for you, I have as well.

[Diviciacus]

Your argument is entirely and thoroughly unpersuasive and smacks of Chicken Little-ism

 

First, I fail to see how at any point I proverbially ran around screaming "the sky is falling!"

 

Second, I was refuting the point of the OP, who said that the mainstat squish was neither bad nor dumbing-down. I agreed with the the latter, while attempting to refute the position that it is "not bad" via the argument that flavor of a mechanic matters in regards to homogeneity (is that the word that tripped you up? I'm sorry, I refuse to cater my posts to reflect the lowest common denominator). Virtually every RPG game in history uses different main stats, or stat priorities (in the case of the arguably more complex pen-and-paper versions) to differentiate between classes from a flavor perspective - that is, how each class feels. Removing mainstats removes a little bit of that differentiating flavor, a little bit of that feeling.

 

You still have armor type and secondary stats (afaik) to keep you repeating end game content. For example, if you're a vanguard tank you're likely not going to roll on a light armor mastery item with no defensive stats.

 

Except, all armor in 3.x has been adaptive, and you can always pull the mods out anyway. The only things stopping someone in 4.x from running an Op once ever to gear up all their toons will be the prohibitive mod-removal costs (it's already 24k credits/mod to mail it over in 3.x) and the set bonuses... but those are all so garbage anyway, who cares?

[Barleron]

... Aim, Cunning, Strength, and Willpower. None of these stats really do anything different with the exception that they only apply to one of four general classes. ...

 

...If you think somehow that the complexity makes things smarter then I have to question your intelligence. The simplest solution is usually the correct one and the best. If you're making things arbitrarily more complex without a noticeable benefit then you are truly being inefficient. How is that by any standard intelligent?

 

I agree with OP. As I understand the system, your customization comes with the secondary stats. For instance: Aim is for BH, Merc/PT seemingly get same benefit from aim but utilize different secondary stats; Cunning is for IA, Sniper/Op seemingly get same benefit from cunning but utilize different secondary stats; Strength is for Warriors, Mara/Jugg seemingly get same benefit from strength but utilize different secondary stats; Willpower is for Inq, Sorc/Assassin seemingly get same benefit from willpower but utilize different secondary stats.

 

If each primary class' main stat does the exact same thing, then why label it different? Call it "Mastery" (as I think they are doing) and they reduce the complexity allowing players to focus on the secondary stats.

[lpope]

 

Let me give you an example that's cross-class, rather than mirror, to really drive the point home: The Sentinel/Marauder ability Force Melt/Rend is literally identical mechanically to Sage/Sorceror Weaken Mind/Affliction. 18-second duration, damage over time ability, no CD. Fire and forget for twelve global cooldowns. (Ignoring the 3.2.1 change of Force Melt/Rend which removed three seconds of duration [one tick of damage]; for the vast majority of the game's life, these two spells were identical mechanically.)

Those two skills are not identical mechanically. Affliction is really only a setup dot which buffs other abilities (especially for lightning) and does low damage. Not to mention that in lightning spec, it auto refreshes so if you pay attention it is a fire and forget for the entire fight. In madness, affliction's benefit is the heal and the buff to Force Leech. Force rend does about 5% more damage (as a percentage of other abilities), and consumes no rage if used properly and doesn't buff any other ability.

 

You should have chosen a different set of skills to illustrate your point.

[btmart]

It is dumbing down, because players no longer have to pay attention to their main stat, which is making it easier, or, rather, lazier. Does it really matter? IMO, not really, other than the fact that I'm not a big fan of dumbing things down.

 

Now what is changing that will make a difference is that surge is going away, and will be rolled into crit. You'll now just have a crit rating. They're pulling out an entire tertiary stat. That is certainly dumbing things down, and something I'm much more concerned about.

 

Edit: Correction, they're rolling crit into surge, and renaming surge to crit.

Edited August 13, 2015 by btmart

[KorbanShepard]

It is dumbing down, because players no longer have to pay attention to their main stat, which is making it easier, or, rather, lazier. Does it really matter? IMO, not really, other than the fact that I'm not a big fan of dumbing things down.

 

Now what is changing that will make a difference is that surge is going away, and will be rolled into crit. You'll now just have a crit rating. They're pulling out an entire tertiary stat. That is certainly dumbing things down, and something I'm much more concerned about.

 

Edit: Correction, they're rolling crit into surge, and renaming surge to crit.

 

Dude, nobody had to pay attention to their mainstat in the first place except possibly the very first time they rolled a character. It doesn't dumb down jack, because that somehow implies that the current status of the mainstat is somehow a mental challenge.

If knowing what mainstat works with what character, which as I pointed out at the beginning of this thread and just above isn't *********** rocket science except possibly to newbs, if that somehow makes you get up in the morning and feel more intelligent than the masses, then either you misunderstood what the word special meant when you were sent to that facility or at bare minimum, you might wish to re-evaluate your concept of what makes something smart versus what makes it dumb.

Is it easier? Yes. Is it simpler. Yes. That's not dumb though.

Having a calender to keep track of the days makes life simpler and easier but that's not dumb. Having a car to get across long distances makes life simpler and easier, but that's not dumb.

It just realigns the focus to more pressing concerns like in this case, tertiary and secondary stats. I get that people are concerned about changes to those. I don't know how much it will matter in the end, but I am curious.

 

Virtually every RPG game in history uses different main stats, or stat priorities (in the case of the arguably more complex pen-and-paper versions) to differentiate between classes from a flavor perspective - that is, how each class feels. Removing mainstats removes a little bit of that differentiating flavor, a little bit of that feeling.

 

What reflects how every class feels are the differences in playstyle from class to class from AC to AC. What reflects the difference is story and how the choices you make in the story get reflected at the end (although, not very much right now). What reflects the difference in classes are things like how the lightsaber is handled, lightning or just force, shotgun or knife, sniper/blaster rifle vs two guns etc. Those four words: aim, cunning, willpower, and strength are kinda silly, mostly meaningless in respect to any difference in how the stats are actually handled and do what to reflect the class? A minor word difference? Armor is already adaptive so that kind of difference flew the coop a long time ago.