Temple of Sacrifice, the pug nightmare.

[Deadfoe]

No STORYMODE Operation should be so difficult for pugs that it requires groups to ask for an achievement link. Especially this long after its release.

[FerkWork]

Oh boy here we go.....

[shavage]

Oh boy here we go.....

 

This^

[CheaterLL]

PUGs will beat it no problem.

BADS are the problem.

 

PUGs are'nt all bads.

[Deadfoe]

I'm sorry, you are all right. There are no barriers for new players trying to explore STORYMODE content. Next you will say they should join a guild...for STORYMODE content.

[TheRealNerevar]

http://www.twitch.tv/illeva/v/9447894

Here you will find a group of Pugs who did Revan HARDMODE

Sooooo.......

Edited August 10, 2015 by TheRealNerevar

[Jake_Chambers]

http://www.twitch.tv/illeva/v/9447894

Here you will find a group of Pugs who did Revan HARDMODE

Sooooo.......

 

Not even remotely the same lol

 

HM can't be done via gf, so you're not getting under geared and inexperienced people who just hit 60. Did you pug it with a group in comm 186's with no augments? That's how most pugs roll in, did you use voice?

 

There's a reason some grps ask for an achievement link, I'm guessing that pug grp u were in did too

 

Sooo...

[CheaterLL]

I'm sorry, you are all right. There are no barriers for new players trying to explore STORYMODE content. Next you will say they should join a guild...for STORYMODE content.

 

They just need to realise that a rotation isn't 1111111121111111111113111 and that BIG RED AND BLUE AND YELLOW CIRCLES and RED TEXT are bad and GREEN CIRCLES AND SQUARES are good. Then bring a few brain cells and 186 gear.

 

If that's too much for them then I can't help them.

Btw a decent group can carry someone through SM and a good group can carry someone through part of HM.

[mynameisbugged]

ask yourself (if you have cleared underlurker) if you had been that bad yourself when you pugged with a baddie. Not sure about you, but i at least did my research on dulfy beforehand, knew my class and the difference between left/right to not be that bad when i first cleared. But i guess im just one of the few who doesn't like to be carried.

[Nkya]

Btw a decent group can carry someone through SM and a good group can carry someone through part of HM.

Not really. Some people are doing bad and are taxing the other (such as needing specific healing because they wont position correctly) Don't expect they'll read the tactics even if you type it every pull.

[DomiSotto]

They just need to realise that a rotation isn't 1111111121111111111113111 and that BIG RED AND BLUE AND YELLOW CIRCLES and RED TEXT are bad and GREEN CIRCLES AND SQUARES are good. Then bring a few brain cells and 186 gear.

 

Unfortunately, that's not enough. I failed on pugs where the group was able to do the mechanics just fine, but the DPS was low, the adds did not die in time, people taking damage from adds while getting into shelters, so the enraged timers were not met resulting in wipes. So, three green crosses wipes....

 

The game does not provide the DPS with the feedback on their performance outside the PvP. Player who just levels simply does not know that his or her DPS rate is insufficient, even when they execute the correct rotation, but too slowly. The speed with which you need to execute is equivalent to maybe something like 50 wpm typing speed, so it is an intense process, not allowing time for thinking prior to selecting an ability.

 

I think that BioWARE should add the DPS requirement in the tooltip right next to the gear requirement. That at least will give a player a frame of reference! Otherwise, we go in blindly.

 

Folks, if you are capable of producing the DPS with the intensity required, be very proud of it. It is a wonderful skill to have, and it requires talent and work.

 

Here is my record of ToS so far:

 

PUG vs UL

 

August 2, 2015: Pug on the Fleet, 6 people from a Guild, and they pugged me as heals and a DPS. Many wipes (8+), including one with 3 green crosses, enrage timer. DPS is too low. Group comp: PT+Jugg tanks, DPS: Merc, Mara, PT, Sin and my co-heals was an Operative. Did not pass.

 

June 23rd, 2015: Guild + 1 pugged co-heals, passed with 3 wipes

 

June 22nd, 2015: Could not find a Pug on Pub Side

 

June 16th: Guild run, no issues

 

June 10th, 2015: Random Pug assembled on the Fleet. Op Leader didn’t ask for achievement, 3 people w/o achievement. Shadow Tank, PT off-tank. Couldn’t pass Underlurker with 6 or 7 wipes. Best green cross count: 2/3. Leader’s comment: DPS too low to take out adds on time.

Edited August 10, 2015 by DomiSotto

[power-alex]

They just need to realise that a rotation isn't 1111111121111111111113111

 

it is on some classes though ))))

 

The speed with which you need to execute is equivalent to maybe something like 50 wpm typing speed

 

it's actually around 40, around 45 on some other classes and with stims.

 

Folks, if you are capable of producing the DPS with the intensity required, be very proud of it. It is a wonderful skill to have, and it requires talent and work.

I feel exalted now but what you say is true, not everyone can do it.

Edited August 10, 2015 by power-alex

[CheaterLL]

it is on some classes though ))))

 

Not if 1 is your basic attack.

[DomiSotto]

I feel exalted now but what you say is true, not everyone can do it.

 

The point I am so laboriously trying to make is that when folks present DPS'ing as something trivial, they do a huge disservice to the players who are starting out. No, it's not enough to be in 190's, not enough to be stimmed and augmented, in other words to take care of the character being prepared.

 

The player him/herself has to be prepared, and that preparedness extends further than having a pulse or spamming the basic ability. Far further.

 

So, please, if you possibly could, folks, do not set others for a failure by making it appear that playing the end-game content is easy and requires minimal time and effort investiture. The more seriously everyone takes it, the better it will be, and the less disappointed we'll be by the end of yet another day ToS was on the GF.

[thewitchdoctor]

The game does not provide the [player] with the feedback on their performance ...

 

And this, Domi, I think is very insightful.

 

The Underlurker on story mode isn't the problem. (He most certainly is the thorn in my side on hard mode right now, though - the jerkface.)

 

The problem is that this game doesn't teach a new player to the standard the ops then set. This game can be solo'd 100% to max level and easily. Now, this isn't a critique on soloing an MMO. Hell, I often spend a huge percentage of my time playing 'alone.' But in getting to 50, 55 or 60, there is no benchmark set for you. Are you puutting out 'sufficient' DPS? You can only guage that, in-game, by whether or not the mobs die before you do. Are you healing well? Are you positioning the mob well so your DPS companion can avoid splash mechanics? New players get absolutely zero feedback on any of this.

 

Now, I am not saying I have a solution. But a built-in DPS/eHPS meter may be helpful. Some kind of 'you avoided X% of mechanic-based damage on this fight' message after a major fight may be good. I saw someone suggest that FPs end with a summary screen of sorts similar to the end of a warzone. I think tooltips can do better to highlight the synergystic nature of skills: 'skill X will proc effect Y which provides a bonus to skill Z,' for example.

 

But, really, the ops aren't the problem. The fact that a new 60 is able to enter ops and encounters a radically different game is the 'problem.' But what is the best way to solve that I do not know.

Edited August 10, 2015 by thewitchdoctor

[MuzluPasta]

No STORYMODE Operation should be so difficult for pugs that it requires groups to ask for an achievement link. Especially this long after its release.

 

I thought you story people don't want to do ops at all.

 

Make up your mind.

[DomiSotto]

But, really, the ops aren't the problem. The fact that a new 60 is able to enter ops and encounters a radically different game is the 'problem.' But what is the best way to solve that I do not know.

 

I think a good start will be for BioWARE to simply start publishing the expected DPS/HPS in the Ops requirements. Then, if the player did not run a check before-hand and ensured s/he comfortably passes (with some 30-50% margin) on a dummy, well, that's on him/her.

 

Maybe there should be a qualifying Achievement that is recorded per character on a dummy. I mean, if you get an achievement for 500 on crafting, maybe you can get your Master DPS for hitting 3000 on a Dummy.

 

Since most folks prefer to form pugs rather than develop groups, each player needs to be ready individually. You simply cannot rely on the pass/fail empirically, because you do not know how much and who carried you, if anyone.

 

SM Ops is the most punishing activity in the game right now in terms of failing. Transitioning from leveling warzones to regs at 60 is hard, but not devastating. Even if you lose a zone, you get your comms, i.e. you are indirectly rewarded with gear.

 

Transitioning from leveling to end-game SM content is much harder. gear is slow to come by, and a failure to pass the boss means no rewards, and you get repair costs on top of it.

 

In PvP, the punishment for skill insufficiency starts with ranked, which is equivalent to the HM/NiM tiers in PvE. Even there, the punishment is basically fellow-player based, and since the best of the best get trash-talked as well, really, nobody gets hit with that whole nothing to show for trying but the bills.

Edited August 10, 2015 by DomiSotto

[onegoldpls]

devs don't care about unbalanced and broken content they made and probably not gonna fix it

forum community is ignorant and cancerous, so telling about major problems is pointless - you will be just sent to "l2p"

the only way is canceling sub and stopping to play,

when only few "pro" players and guilds will be left on servers, maybe devs will realize they have done something wrong

Edited August 10, 2015 by onegoldpls

[MuzluPasta]

devs don't care about unbalanced and broken content they made and probably not gonna fix it

forum community is ignorant and cancerous, so telling about major problems is pointless - you will be just sent to "l2p"

the only way is canceling sub and stopping to play,

when only few "pro" players and guilds will be left on servers, maybe devs will realize they have done something wrong

 

Pro players already left/are leaving.

[onegoldpls]

Pro players already left/are leaving.

 

one more reason for devs to remove whole hard/challenging content and make everything available for everyone, it's 99% noob and causal game and it should be.

 

btw i'm 8/10 hm and i can say for sure, hardmodes are waste of developers resources

i'm not talking about underlurker story which caused hundrends of players to quit

[Shwarzchild]

I see this topic is back up and kicking. I'm gonna go grab some popcorn.

 

Operations are hard. Deal with it. i did ToS 5 times yesterday with GF. All pugs. Cleared it 4 times. 5th I dipped out cause I had a friend stop over, but they most likely cleared it too. 4 of the 5 tries we had 2 tanks go forward in the entire operation in tank spec. Underlurker died in the 4 groups that I didn't have company for.

 

Look we get it. DPSing in this game isn't the easiest thing in the world. Matter of fact it's probably the hardest thing to do. Maybe understanding that is step 1. You can also easily get each class up to proper story mode numbers in 186/190/192/198 coms gear. I know it's possible. Malaphar my dps sat at 6.1k, SS 2.9k, UL 2.8, the rest who cares cause you don't actually need to put forth any effort in those fights. That's in a dps that I've been working with for 2 weeks at most, 8/14 pieces aug'd. 190 ears and implants, 178 relics, and the rest an attempt at min maxing 190/192/198 com gear stuffs with a 186 main hand barrel. I think I topped out at like 37.something APMs. So lesson here is even a person who isn't that good (as judged by my apms) at the rotation can still succeed in pulling good dps for story mode. A person in com gear can succeed in story mode.

 

What it requires is a little effort on the player's part.

 

So all DPS can do it. Just matters if they have any of that "want to" that's needed or if they just want to be a succubus.

Edited August 10, 2015 by Shwarzchild

[ATAMIANM]

I PUG a lot. Without question, the UL fight is where nearly all PUG groups fail. and it nearly always is because the DPS die too soon, fail to kill the adds, or one or more (not always DPS) miss the cross. Mechanically, it's all laid out and obvious what to do. In practice it is not as easy as it sounds.

 

I'm not sure what the solution is, but I have a couple of thoughts. One of the problems I had with this fight when I started was losing my perspective of where I am. The UL is so huge that often the toons are covered by him. This leads to situations where one discovers too late he/she is under a rock and dies. And this is with the camera zoomed out to the max. Maybe if you could zoom out more or UL were smaller it would help. The UL also looks somewhat similar from the front and rear, that doesn't help either.

 

I used to hate that groups forming required the UL achievement. However, after the last few weeks, I've noticed that those players who fail at UL and leave of their own volition or get kicked usually don't have the achievement. The op is doable if people know their roles. I've gotten through it as ranged/melee dps and heals no problem, and I definitely am not the best of players. But I put out enough DPS to get the job done.

[Asdif_Laoeg]

@ATAMIANM

 

Look at the foot of UL to see your position. It is more easy than looking at his body or head.

[ATAMIANM]

Thanks. I have overcome the problem- practice, I guess. I was speaking more to those new to the op. Also, the UL's right arm has some flashy things on it, which his left does not.

 

@ATAMIANM

 

Look at the foot of UL to see your position. It is more easy than looking at his body or head.

[AlrikFassbauer]

So, please, if you possibly could, folks, do not set others for a failure by making it appear that playing the end-game content is easy and requires minimal time and effort investiture.

 

To those who are too good but don't realze it, it IS trivial.

 

BUT - they are assuming skill etc. of THEIR level - which is like

 

Usain Bolt expecting teenagers to be as able to run as he does.

Or Serena Williams expecting teenagers to be as good in tennis as she is.

Or Mike Jordan expecting teenagers to be as good in basketball as he is.

 

And this is THE perfect example of the Curse Of Knowledge.

 

The curse of knowledge is a cognitive bias that leads better-informed parties to find it extremely difficult to think about problems from the perspective of lesser-informed parties.

 

The problem is that this game doesn't teach a new player to the standard the ops then set.

 

And this is why I wish for an Operation at level 20 or 30. To TEACH people these "trivial" things.

Edited August 10, 2015 by AlrikFassbauer