Carbon Freezing.

[TitusOfTides]

I recently watched the original trilogy, and during the Empire Strikes Back a couple very interesting questions arose:

 

(Not going to put spoilers tags on this... Vader is Luke's father btw)

 

When Darth Vader is going to carbon freeze Han Solo, Lando Calrissian mentions that they only use this process in their mining operation and it is unclear whether or not this would be safe for the human being frozen in carbon. Furthermore, Boba Fett also expresses a concern for the potential loss of life for his bounty - both individuals express their concern as if it is the first time something like this has EVER been done.

 

The questions this brings forth are:

 

A) If this is the first time something like this has been done, how come it's sees such widespread use during our point in time? I really doubt if it were as common as it seems now it would be "lost to the ages" only to be stumbled upon again in the future a thousand years later.

 

B) During this point in the film, Han is put into an all encompassing chamber in order to fully freeze him in the carbon. Since this seems necessary, how come we essentially "super soak" our targets in-game and they emerge fully frozen in a perfect carbon block?

 

While I know what's done is done, it just seems like a bit of an oversight and I am curious what the rest of the community's thoughts on this are.

[MadDutchman]

A) almost 4k years is a long time, lots can happen

 

B) ya, that never made sense to me either. Game convenience I suppose

[Altyrell]

It wasn't whether or not he could survive being placed in Carbonite, it actually had to do more with the freezing processes that Cloud City used. You have to remember, their systems were being used to freeze the Tibanna Gas of Bespin, so it wasn't designed to freeze humans, simply because, they had no (legit) reason to carbonize people (human or otherwise) on Cloud City as that wasn't it's function. CC's function was the mining of Bespin's gasses, so their carbonizing systems were set-up around that. Edited August 5, 2015 by Altyrell

[alloythedefender]

In just 4 words I can answer your massive inquiry.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

SWTOR is not Canon.

[Bobs_YourUncle]

Because carbon freezing is cool, and wouldn't be as fun if we had to lug around a big chamber. That being said, we can't even explain how the pyramids in Egypt were built, although it's quite clear aliens helped.

[Zharik]

It's simple, they don't have an imagination so they have to copy the movies... sarlacc pits, the whole Karaga's Palace scene is basically a redo of RotJ Jabba's Palace, smuggler gets a wookie companion to swear a life-debt, etc, etc. There are tons of times when I knew what was going to happen simply because I am an avid Star Wars fan... and they simply *must* follow precedent or they get thrown to the lions or something. I guess that's why the Imperial Agent's story line is so refreshing... while cliche' at times it is not overdone and was very well written.

 

(seriously, how many "Evil Emperors" do we face over the millennia?? I'm looking at you, next expansion...)

[Altyrell]

A) almost 4k years is a long time, lots can happen

 

B) ya, that never made sense to me either. Game convenience I suppose

 

around 3k actually, but that's neither here nor there, but I do agree that it's more likely has to do with game convenience and simplification of things [just as BH's have unlimited missiles on their backs/wrists or how grenades don't really affect the Players (outside of PVP).

[Max_Killjoy]

One possible think-around of Lando's statement is that the chamber is only normally used in the mining operation. not that carbon freezing is never used on people at all.

 

"You can't use those pliers for dental work, they're for taking bent nails out of planks!" doesn't mean that there are no dental tools that work and look a lot like some sort of pliers.

[devincor]

In just 4 words I can answer your massive inquiry.

 

SWTOR is not Canon.

 

But Disney's Clone Wars is/was. Their was an episode where anakin and some troopers (maybe kenobi too) were carbon freezed to be able to sneak them into a place the bad guys were. And that is only 20-25 years before Han Solo's freeze.

 

I think the others are right in Lando's questioning is in relation to Cloud city's freezing chamber, not in general usage around the galaxy. It might not be common, but it is used.

[Aries_cz]

It has been retconned in a way that Lando refers to the process Cloud City was using, no the actual carbonite freezing itself.

[SteveTheCynic]

It wasn't whether or not he could survive being placed in Carbonite, it actually had to do more with the freezing processes that Cloud City used. You have to remember, their systems were being used to freeze the Tibanna Gas of Bespin, so it wasn't designed to freeze humans, simply because, they had no (legit) reason to carbonize people (human or otherwise) on Cloud City as that wasn't it's function. CC's function was the mining of Bespin's gasses, so their carbonizing systems were set-up around that.

Carbonizing people is easy. Keeping them alive while doing it is a bit of a challenge.

 

("Carbonize" means "reduce by heat to just carbon", i.e. boil off all the volatiles that aren't carbon. Charcoal is carbonized wood, while anyone who's ever left a steak on the grill too long knows what happens to meat when it's carbonized.)

[OddballEasyEight]

Yeah, this always bothered me, ever since carbon freezing became "a thing".

 

It sounds like it's not something normally done.

It doesn't sound like it's just "our freezing process isn't built for humans", as if carbon freezing humans was a common thing, just not like that.

It sounds like it's actually not something that's done.

 

But since they did it, everyone does it.

 

But I call this "star wars-itis".

 

It's the same thing as wookiees. They're supposedly really rare... and yet they're in damned near every star wars thing out there.

The YT-1300 is the most common vessel in the galaxy... why? Because it was in the movies.

And in damned near every publication ever in any form, someone runs into one of the people from the movies.

There's billions of systems in the galaxy, There's quadrillions of inhabitants in it.

But people keep running into the same two dozen or so characters from the movies.

And everyone goes to this backwater planet at "the farthest edge of the universe" called Tatooine.

 

It's kinda annoying.

[Aries_cz]

Yeah, this always bothered me, ever since carbon freezing became "a thing".

 

It sounds like it's not something normally done.

It doesn't sound like it's just "our freezing process isn't built for humans", as if carbon freezing humans was a common thing, just not like that.

It sounds like it's actually not something that's done.

 

But since they did it, everyone does it.

 

But I call this "star wars-itis".

 

It's the same thing as wookiees. They're supposedly really rare... and yet they're in damned near every star wars thing out there.

The YT-1300 is the most common vessel in the galaxy... why? Because it was in the movies.

And in damned near every publication ever in any form, someone runs into one of the people from the movies.

There's billions of systems in the galaxy, There's quadrillions of inhabitants in it.

But people keep running into the same two dozen or so characters from the movies.

And everyone goes to this backwater planet at "the farthest edge of the universe" called Tatooine.

 

It's kinda annoying.

 

In the movies, it was not something normally done, but later it was retconned, because someone realized it is actually a pretty cool idea for keeping prisoner "secure"

 

And as to the "star wars-itis", it is a thing with EVERY franchise in history of fiction. People buy those things because they tie in to the universe, and the universe is known for few specific people and locations.

For example, every Stargate book has main characters of the shows in it in some way, every Starcraft book references Raynor, Mengsk, Kerrigan or Artanis.

[Malastare]

("Carbonize" means "reduce by heat to just carbon", i.e. boil off all the volatiles that aren't carbon.

 

Note the difference between "carbonite" and "carbonize". The two aren't the same, and since we're in a space fantasy setting, you should be very cautious in assuming that they are similar just because a bunch of letters are the same. "Carbon" is an element that exists in both universes. "Carbonite" is specific to the Star Wars universe alone (ignoring the online backup service), and is reportedly a quasi-metallic material composed largely of carbon. Hence the official description of Han's situation: "encased in carbonite", rather than "turned into carbonite". Han's still all there, just frozen and surrounded by a metallic substance.

[Malastare]

Yeah, this always bothered me, ever since carbon freezing became "a thing".

 

Meh. It was a cool thing made for the movies, then retconned into a generalized process. To be honest, even from its start in ESB, there were reasons to think this was more common. If we ignore the super-convenient size of the encasement device, we're still left with the fact that they were able to look at the block and see that Han wasn't "damaged". An odd ability for something that only ever froze gas, right? And it had convenient thawing controls. And even more to the point: When Han was thawed, Leia knew he'd have hibernation sickness.

 

You can pass some of this off by saying: "Well, of course they'd need thawing controls. Emergencies and so forth. And the fact that he was alive but had been frozen before would suggest to anyone that he would have hibernation sickness..." But then, you're just coming up with reasons which are only just as reasonable as the opposing side.

 

The retconn clears this up. It wasn't a common thing, but it wasn't unknown, either.

 

But I call this "star wars-itis".

 

There's nothing special here about Star Wars.

 

Remember, Star Wars is a space opera, rather than hard science fiction. The underlying style is sort of defined by a set of centralized characters being pulled into semi-contrived plot elements that create very archetypical plots. Character familiarity and exaggerated morality groups are pretty much expected.

 

And everyone goes to this backwater planet at "the farthest edge of the universe" called Tatooine.

 

Oddly enough, this is one of Star Wars' more unique story elements. While it was created as a backwater planet, long before the release of RotJ it was upgraded to a bit of iconic commentary on the universe as a whole: This small, barely inhabited, outwardly uninteresting planet was the start of events which spanned the galaxy.

[MiloUto]

(seriously, how many "Evil Emperors" do we face over the millennia?? I'm looking at you, next expansion...)

 

OMG this made me laugh so hard.

[MaximusRex]

I myself just recently watched ESB, and my take is that the Carbonite equipment was designed to be more industrial, and that was the concern, more than that Carbonite Freezing itself wouldn't work. Vader had it tested on Han because he didn't want to kill Luke, after Lando and Fett both voiced concerns, yet someone at some point came up with the Carbonite plan, so it must have been viable. [speculation]: Carbonite freezing might be used in other places for transporting livestock, or other live cargo, but since Cloud City was a mining colony, their equipment might not have been agricultural grade.

 

As for the game mechanic, I figure it's just a simplified way of showing it in a way that tells you what happened to the target, thereby bypassing having to explain that you stunned the person then brought them to a carbonite freezer later every time you carbonite a person.

[Malastare]

As for the game mechanic, I figure it's just a simplified way of showing it in a way that tells you what happened to the target, thereby bypassing having to explain that you stunned the person then brought them to a carbonite freezer later every time you carbonite a person.

 

I'll admit that as a game mechanic, it fits the purpose and has a certain quasi-lore fun aspect to it. At the same time, it glosses over a bunch of practicalities of actually making it work. If its a spray, it wouldn't really stop someone from running away. If it's just a stand-in visual for sedating and then freezing a person, there's still the weirdness of you walking around with a bunch of freezing trays (or whatever we call them).

 

Of course, following that thought just leaves us with the rest of the super odd game mechanics that don't work in a practical setting: How many tons of metal can you really carry around? I've got a Level 10 character that is lugging four whole speeders (that she doesn't know how to use yet) in her pack. I have to explore my way out to the barely-ever-seen vaults of Belsavis, but even if I'm at the bottom of a locked vault, I can request a shuttle to pick me up. The leaders at the Hoth base said they lost contact with one of their posts, but you can literally see the post from the front door of the base.

 

At some point, you have to overlook the game mechanics and just take them for what they are: Game mechanics that are there to save us from the horrible, crushing drudgery that would exist if the game truly was realistic.

[Aries_cz]

I'll admit that as a game mechanic, it fits the purpose and has a certain quasi-lore fun aspect to it. At the same time, it glosses over a bunch of practicalities of actually making it work. If its a spray, it wouldn't really stop someone from running away. If it's just a stand-in visual for sedating and then freezing a person, there's still the weirdness of you walking around with a bunch of freezing trays (or whatever we call them).

 

Of course, following that thought just leaves us with the rest of the super odd game mechanics that don't work in a practical setting: How many tons of metal can you really carry around? I've got a Level 10 character that is lugging four whole speeders (that she doesn't know how to use yet) in her pack. I have to explore my way out to the barely-ever-seen vaults of Belsavis, but even if I'm at the bottom of a locked vault, I can request a shuttle to pick me up. The leaders at the Hoth base said they lost contact with one of their posts, but you can literally see the post from the front door of the base.

 

At some point, you have to overlook the game mechanics and just take them for what they are: Game mechanics that are there to save us from the horrible, crushing drudgery that would exist if the game truly was realistic.

 

It really is not "just a mechanic". During BH storyline, you are literally given a "

" for your armor, and in cutscenes, it is a "gray mist" spray. So it implies that it is actually a "spray". Most of the targets you freeze are already pretty beaten up, so they are not running anywhere. Again, bounty hunter questline states so (it takes a long time to charge up, they cannot be running)

 

So it is probably some sort of "quick freeze" that can keep them frozen long enough to get them (probably loaded on some hovercraft you do not see because mechanics) to either the bounty client or to some facility for long term "freezing"

Edited August 5, 2015 by Aries_cz

[Sorwen]

Lando: Lord Vader, we only use this facility for carbon freezing. If you put him in there it might kill him.

...

3PO: Oh. They've encased him in Carbonite. He should be quite well protected. If he survived the freezing process, that is.

It wasn't what they did but how they did it that was the problem.

Edited August 5, 2015 by Sorwen

[Eillack]

But Disney's Clone Wars is/was. Their was an episode where anakin and some troopers (maybe kenobi too) were carbon freezed to be able to sneak them into a place the bad guys were. And that is only 20-25 years before Han Solo's freeze.

 

I think the others are right in Lando's questioning is in relation to Cloud city's freezing chamber, not in general usage around the galaxy. It might not be common, but it is used.

 

Same episode in TCW brought about concerns too.

[SteveTheCynic]

Note the difference between "carbonite" and "carbonize". The two aren't the same, and since we're in a space fantasy setting, you should be very cautious in assuming that they are similar just because a bunch of letters are the same. "Carbon" is an element that exists in both universes. "Carbonite" is specific to the Star Wars universe alone (ignoring the online backup service), and is reportedly a quasi-metallic material composed largely of carbon. Hence the official description of Han's situation: "encased in carbonite", rather than "turned into carbonite". Han's still all there, just frozen and surrounded by a metallic substance.

Yes, I can read, you know. I'm quite aware of the difference between carbonite and carbonize. I was addressing the points in the previous post where he uses "carbonize" to mean "freeze in carbonite", while in fact it means "reduce to carbon by heating".

 

Oh, and there are two other uses of "carbonite" in the real world. One is (was?) an explosive used in coal mining, and the other is a somewhat hypothetical carbon-oxygen ion, CO2(-2), of marginal stability.

Edited August 6, 2015 by SteveTheCynic