Sith Philosophy: Inherently self-defeating or misunderstood by its practitioners?

[DeltaaXx]

I wouldn't really call Nihilus a good example of any Sith. He didn't really "fall" to the dark side, but was more driven insane to the point where his mind was completely gone and the dark side took over. He had absolutely no control over what he was doing, and was running on pure instinct through the dark side. He wasn't even really a Sith anymore, he was just an abomination that wanted to feed.

 

Darth Bandon may be a better example of a "chaos" Sith. His first scene in KotOR (aside from the Trask Ulgo thing) was him walking onto the bridge of a ship and killing a few Sith soldiers doing their jobs for absolutely no reason. He's the embodiment of the Stupid Evil alignment.

 

With that said, I feel the "order" approach to the Sith is the most "right" path. The original Lords of the Sith wanted to found a society based upon their teachings, not spawn an army of kill-crazy Saturday Morning Cartoon villains that are so chaotic and selfish that they're incapable of accomplishing any goals. Heck, the most successful Sith were the Lawful Evil ones, such as Marka Ragnos, Exar Kun, Darth Revan, Lord Kaan (he would have finished the Republic for good if Bane hadn't intervened on Ruusan), Darth Bane, Palpatine, and Darth Krayt. I can't even think of a "chaotic" Sith that was successful.

 

Well Nihilus was a bit of "chaotic". And did nearly hunt the Jedi to extinction alongside Sion...

[DeltaaXx]

I think the Dark Council is well aware of Imperius' views on the Sith Code, yet they acknowledge her, because she is powerful enough and has her place in the Order ( with the Emperor and even Jadus gone, she knows the most about the secrets of the order).

 

Well technically, "Darth Imperius" is just the alternate side... and seeing how the create a 60 toon in KotFE would be DS if Sith... it seems "Darth Nox" is the favored alignment of Bioware, which would mean Nox is just as sadistic and conniving as many other Sith in the Empire. He/she is just much more powerful. Also using a character who's name/gender/alignment and for all intents and purposes identity is undefined and is determined solely on player choice... it doesn't exactly make a good point.

Edited July 25, 2015 by DeltaaXx

[CrutchCricket]

You said that apprentices are supposed to duel their master, to ensure the strongest Sith prevails. And Palpatine ended up pouring some wine for Plagueis and then killim him in his sleep, there was no duel, most likely because if he attacked his master, there was a pretty good chance he would have been killed.

 

Which is pretty much the theme with Palpatine, it was all about political manipulation, and subverting the senate, I prefer the direct approach of the Sith Empire, conquer the galaxy with force of arms, at least it makes a great theme for a video game, that's for sure.

That is a point of contention regarding the Rule of Two. Darth Bane clearly intended it to be a straight up duel that both parties put their all in. Yet that is a marked exception to his usual policy that treachery and cunning is preferable and more of the dark side than false notions of a "fair fight". It is difficult to reconcile. On the one hand you have an apprentice potentially weaker in the Force still able to triumph over the Master through a cunning trap. On the other hand it is treachery and cunning that are the main tools in bringing down the Republic, not grand feats of the dark side. To say nothing of the fact that the Master shouldn't be so much of a chump that he doesn't see the trap coming. There is debate there certainly, over which is preferable. Ideally the apprentice would become superior in every way, both in cunning and strength. But realistically, it may have been that the equilibrium fluctuated a bit and you had a "smart Sith" take out a more powerful one which necessitated that his apprentice be powerful enough to take him out regardless which then potentially lead to a new apprentice that had to use more wits than strength and so on. Clearly the trend was still going up though, given what Plagueis and Palpatine accomplished. That's proof enough for me that it works. It's certainly the best alternative for Sith.

 

Obviously I disagree. And obviously everytime they've tried for open war it failed. So I'll stick with the subtle plan. Which can still make a great game. Despite what the majority of AAA gaming these days would have you believe, it is possible to make more complex games that aren't "shoot the different thing and wait for your health to regen". In a good RPG setting you definitely could showcase the scheming and shifting political machinations in an engaging way.

[Shadowsentinel]

There is one problem about Sith, none of them are actually free. They're slaves to their own passions. That's the main problem of Sith Order in my opinion.

[lokdron]

snip

 

Pretty much, hence why if you make a level 60 sith in the new expansion they are going to be more predominantly dark side and jedi will be light side.

 

Its pretty clear which side bioware favors for force users, I mean people can play however they want but don't think you are going to change the empire light side sith are a minority I would not even really call them a "sith" just like I don't consider a fallen jedi a jedi.

 

Since you are against what your order stands for and in the sith case if you are found out you either have to run, isolate yourself, join the jedi or if you can't do those things most likely you will be obliterated by the sith or re converted again.

Edited July 25, 2015 by lokdron

[Bouncy_Hunter]

Problem is that sith is a dark side religion that is your sith interpretation of the code you being light side and showing empthay etc are considered chains in sith religion. You aren't truly "free" in a sith eyes because you spend your time protecting others. Plus being light side is pure heresy to the sith its the reason why the SW and SI don't outright say it and why a sith lord was utterly destroyed for what he thought and sealed away.

 

Since well they will be killed if they do so, heck even darth marr converts captured jedi to the dark side and I am quite sure that is not a pleasant experience either.

 

As Crutch said people consider that murdering people to be stupid evil BUT to a sith its not, The dark side feeds on death, suffering, pain and all hosts of other dark acts and emotions and the more a sith does it. The more stronger you get in the dark side. It becomes even more easier to connect to the dark side as well its the reason why in kotor 2 kriea approves when you spread death and pain through manipulation. which in turn causes more suffering than outright killing them since all of the ripples you cause.

 

The reason why Sith philosophy is so backwards and primal. They look at morals as a human made construct and a weakness but that's the thing... It separates us from beasts. Even the Sith in KOTOR keep comparing themselves to beasts hunting their prey. They believe in survival of the fittest to an extreme extent where survival isn't the point anymore but getting more "power" from constant conflict and murder.

[Bouncy_Hunter]

Why did you spare them? Empathy? Compassion? These are chains holding you back, therefore you are weak and have not yet fully embraced your potential.

 

"Chains" which would separate the Sith from a common beast.

Edited July 25, 2015 by Bouncy_Hunter

[Rodyn]

Well Nihilus was a bit of "chaotic". And did nearly hunt the Jedi to extinction alongside Sion...

Like I said in my post that you quoted, Nihilus wasn't a Sith, he was an entity of the dark side. He did not follow the Sith Code. Hell, he probably couldn't even read.

Edited July 26, 2015 by Rodyn

[lokdron]

Like I said in my post that you quoted, Nihilus wasn't a Sith, he was an entity of the dark side. He did not follow the Sith Code. Hell, he probably couldn't even read.

 

Yup I pretty much view him the same as the emperor more like a force of the dark side or an entity of it.

[ChazDoit]

Yup I pretty much view him the same as the emperor more like a force of the dark side or an entity of it.

 

Was the Sith Code ever even mentioned in kotor 2?

[Ramalina]

Was the Sith Code ever even mentioned in kotor 2?

 

It has been a while since I've played through but I'm pretty sure it is.

 

I vaguely remember something about the computer system at the academy on Korriban, you have to log in as a student and pass a test on the Sith code.

[CrutchCricket]

There is one problem about Sith, none of them are actually free. They're slaves to their own passions. That's the main problem of Sith Order in my opinion.

That is true for most. Not all though. Bane's Order of the Sith did it right. There may be a few earlier examples as well. Malgus perhaps.

 

Probably why I respect Bane and his successors and Malgus while I can only chuckle at the rest.

 

I mean people can play however they want but don't think you are going to change the empire light side sith are a minority I would not even really call them a "sith" just like I don't consider a fallen jedi a jedi.

Jadus wanted to change the Empire. What alignment was he again?

 

I still find the "want to change the Empire" thing a weak justification. It just feels so token. You have no choice but to continue to work with and serve these really dark individuals (because plot) but just say you want to "change the Empire" and that excuses you to hold some kind of moral high ground.

 

The idea itself isn't fundamentally bad. My agent technically wants to change the Empire... by destroying the Sith and ending their meddling. "Change the empire" is just a poor excuse for being lightside. I'd have more respect for someone who'd try to make the Sith Code work with the light (i.e. why should we only feed on anger/hate?). Still be fairly hard to swallow but at least it'd be more relevant and an interesting new direction.

 

The reason why Sith philosophy is so backwards and primal. They look at morals as a human made construct and a weakness but that's the thing... It separates us from beasts. Even the Sith in KOTOR keep comparing themselves to beasts hunting their prey. They believe in survival of the fittest to an extreme extent where survival isn't the point anymore but getting more "power" from constant conflict and murder.

That's because they are a human made construct. The weakness part may be debatable in real life but then again, in real life you don't actually gain power by being angry or causing hate.

 

What separates us from "the beasts" by the way is higher reasoning/intelligence, the ability to formulate and communicate abstract concepts and higher notions of self-awareness. If you think these are a matter of scale, not fundamental differences, you're right. I hope that's not a problem for you.

 

"Chains" which would separate the Sith from a common beast.

No, power and cunning does that. Oh and what I said above about mental faculties.

[Bobbyrab]

Half the issue is simply that we've never seen a canonical attempt to really "grey" the sides of the Force. Jedi are good, Sith are bad. Sure, there are variations but nothing to unleash the floodgates of storytelling and let us explore the limitations of Jedi philosophy and the potential good of Sith philosophy.

 

For instance, the idea in the prequels that Jedi don't marry is lame. When Anakin and Padme fell in love I wasn't thinking, how terrible! but, well, okay...that's perfectly natural. And the Sith idea of following one's passion can be a very good thing.

 

But we've never seen a serious exploration of that. Some of this may just be that the "keepers" of Star Wars (Lucas, Disney, etc.) want SW to always be good vs evil. They don't want to "Game of Thrones" the universe, which I understand. However, I think there'll always be some limits in just hammering "good Jedi vs evil Sith" over and over again. As others have stated, the only Sith lords we've seen are power hungry monsters and the Jedi are always good, emotionally dead people.

 

Vanilla and chocolate ice cream is very good, and there's a reason they're the top flavors, but it's still nice to have some other variety if for no other reason than to enjoy those flavors all the more when you've had some distance since the last time.

[Bouncy_Hunter]

Half the issue is simply that we've never seen a canonical attempt to really "grey" the sides of the Force. Jedi are good, Sith are bad. Sure, there are variations but nothing to unleash the floodgates of storytelling and let us explore the limitations of Jedi philosophy and the potential good of Sith philosophy.

 

For instance, the idea in the prequels that Jedi don't marry is lame. When Anakin and Padme fell in love I wasn't thinking, how terrible! but, well, okay...that's perfectly natural. And the Sith idea of following one's passion can be a very good thing.

 

But we've never seen a serious exploration of that. Some of this may just be that the "keepers" of Star Wars (Lucas, Disney, etc.) want SW to always be good vs evil. They don't want to "Game of Thrones" the universe, which I understand. However, I think there'll always be some limits in just hammering "good Jedi vs evil Sith" over and over again. As others have stated, the only Sith lords we've seen are power hungry monsters and the Jedi are always good, emotionally dead people.

 

Vanilla and chocolate ice cream is very good, and there's a reason they're the top flavors, but it's still nice to have some other variety if for no other reason than to enjoy those flavors all the more when you've had some distance since the last time.

 

I agree, the original design for jedi / sith was like black and white. The ideal person would be balanced between the two, they are two extremes.

[Rodyn]

As others have stated, the only Sith lords we've seen are power hungry monsters and the Jedi are always good, emotionally dead people.

Eh wha? The vast majority of Jedi absolutely have emotion. Obi-Wan, Yoda, Aayla Secura, Mace Windu, Quinlan Vos, Master Vandar, Luke, Corran Horn, Kyp Durron, Bastila, Nomi Sunrider, Ulic Qel-Droma... I could go on, if you'd like.

 

I can only think of two Jedi that bordered on emotionless, Luminara Unduli and Shaak Ti, but they still held compassion and could crack a smile. The only Jedi that actually purged all of her emotions was the Dark Woman, and she was considered an extremist by most of her peers because of that.

 

"There is no emotion, there is peace," is frequently misunderstood by people. It doesn't mean you CAN'T have emotion, it means that you shouldn't let emotion control you during tough situations. Jedi are certainly allowed to feel emotions. Hell, compassion is a cornerstone of being a Jedi, and you can't feel compassion for the less-fortunate if you're emotionless.

 

Likewise, not all Sith are herpaderp evil. Sure, most do evil things to accomplish their goals, but it's seldom out of pure sadism and more out of hardline pragmatism to accomplish their goals. A Sith would choose to execute a squad of useless prisoners not because he/she thinks it's funny, but because it would be a drain on his/her resources to keep them around.

 

Sure, there were stupid Sith like Malak* and Bandon, but you then you have even-handed, intelligent Sith like Dooku, Marr, Bane, Kaan, Palpatine, and more who, while most definitely evil, are not Saturday Morning Cartoon Villains, and are evil due to the pursuit of their goals, not because they like to murder and torture people for no reason, but because doing so accomplishes their mission.

 

*On the subject of Malak, he decimated Taris because he feared Bastila's Battle Meditation would lead to the end of him and his empire. And he was right.

 

I agree, the original design for jedi / sith was like black and white. The ideal person would be balanced between the two, they are two extremes.

There is no "grey" side, but a Jedi does not have to be hippie-good, nor does a Sith have to be comically evil, to represent their respective sides of the Force.

[lironBD]

During the Sith Warrior story Darth Vowron says: "Without conflict there can be no victory".

 

Which means that without conflict and constant battles, challenges and other hardship to test their mettle the sith can't truly fulfill their code and ascend to greatness.

[DeltaaXx]

Like I said in my post that you quoted, Nihilus wasn't a Sith, he was an entity of the dark side. He did not follow the Sith Code. Hell, he probably couldn't even read.

 

True, probably why I like him the most out of the Darths. :3

[Krimlord]

The Jedi Code is Denial of The emotional facet of Humanity.

The Siith Code is Denial of the moral facet of Humanity.

 

Plenty of Jedi are emotional? It just means don't let it control you? Perhaps. The only oddity about that is, why are there so many potrayed Jedi who not only deny attachments as a whole but also ones with literally a monotonous voice and expressionless absence of personality. Or the Jedi in the smuggler story who doesn't understand sarcasm, or flirty, or the concept of this strange concept called "attraction". It is all alien to her because she has essentially become like a robot, the only part of humanity she might have left is sympathy for others but if one isn't allowed to have such emotional connections why the hell do they even care to protect everyone? What a paradox.

 

Sith Code is evolutionary extremism, advancement, hierarchy, survival. More primal. But pragmatic. It is survival and self prevalence and finding strength within oneself, never relying on others for inner strength. How can we be strong if everyone has to hold our hand? We shouldn't lean on others for strength, but ourselves. Sure, being there for someone is ok but leaning on them for stability is another and only weakens the other from that dependence. There are definitely good things that the sith do indeed possess. However, it is the way they carry out with their interpretations that screw any potential over into a point of backstabbing, treachery, and we know a devided house will fall. Discarding morals may be to be a common view, but at the same time. . . Morality is a chain?

Well.

Morality = a chain to get rid of to have ones own control. . . ?

But what if morality is something to have because without it you only operate on instinct? In that way, morality (your own values from within) would be mastery over the self. Perhaps like the Jedi would believe, but better to not be bound by the morality. More like a flexible morality if anything, not stupid honor that is never crossed no matter what. Where pragmatic survival would come into play, so long as it is in a way that shows their own power (this means not backstabbing stronger ones so that the weaker ones take over),. There are ways the code could be interpreted and utilized wonderfully I bet you. Merely unfortunate it isn't.

- - -

Peace is a lie, there is only passion = Passion can be utilized as a powerful tool to self advancement and even protecting others. Peace on the other hand IS a lie because logically "Peace" does not exist. Not true peace and harmony. It is a fairy tail concept, something we merely wish was true. This line as such is non sugar coated reality!

 

Through Passion, I gain Strength = Through force of Will or Determination you rise up, you have the power to achieve that which is desired.

 

Through Strength, I gain Power = You rise up bit by bit

 

Through Power, I gain Victory = You have achieved the desire. You have been self empowered!

 

Through Victory, My chains are broken = In achieving success you have raised yourself above the failings over others and have thus broken your chains of subservience or meagerness and become someone great or powerful. Thus not so much influenced by the powers that be, for you are the powers that be. Chains are represented by fear, uncertainty, self doubt, and even equality. According to bane. You surpass your doubts and become strong to thus rise above those who have not the strength or will to achieve what you yourself could achieve.

 

The Force Shall Free Me = Freedom equals the freedom from inhibition to truly become your potential. In the Sith's case, Influence, positions of power and authority, and no longer held back by insecurities thus strong in spirit.

 

- - -

 

There is no emotion, there is peace = Emotionless jedi's are everywhere. Some aren't. But some seriously take it into a point of becoming an emotionless passionless robot, becoming hardly functional. Losing common sense and personality. When jedi start to manifest emotion more, it shows up as arrogance and self righteousness which they remain blind to.

 

There is no Ignorance, there is knowledge = They store all the knowledge for their high ranking jedi only, as a library virtually no one has the permission to look at. A.k.a many universe spanning and historical secrets only the few may know. Many things outsiders are not allowed to know.

 

There is no Passion, there is Serenity = While it is true passion can be manipulated, the complete absence of it results in no personal drive or goals or purpose other than blind subservience which is what is needed.

 

There is no Chaos, There is Harmony = The universe seems pretty chaotic to me. Denial changes absolutely nothing, nor is it possible to achieve any physical harmony at all. Ever. In one's heart? To a degree, but there are always limits and we do NOT defeat our issues by denying them and avoiding them. We face them head on.

 

There is no Death, There is the Force = Technically if you no longer exist accept as "One with the Universe", then technically you do not retain any individuality. A body dies and rots away, to fade into the universe. Essentially you're still dead. Nothing changes that fact. If you no longer exist as your individuality you are dead. Period... Because individuality as all we have to define our existence.

Edited July 27, 2015 by Krimlord

[ChazDoit]

True, probably why I like him the most out of the Darths. :3

 

As far as I know Obsidian was just trying to do their own thing, they're not big Star Wars fans, so they introduced a lot of philosophical concepts that we've seen them use in other games, such as Planescape Torment, or Mask of the Betrayer.

 

As far as I know, the Sith Code was not even brought up in Kotor 2

Edited July 27, 2015 by ChazDoit

[Canareth]

The Jedi Code is Denial of The emotional facet of Humanity.

The Siith Code is Denial of the moral facet of Humanity.

 

Plenty of Jedi are emotional? It just means don't let it control you? Perhaps. The only oddity about that is, why are there so many potrayed Jedi who not only deny attachments as a whole but also ones with literally a monotonous voice and expressionless absence of personality. Or the Jedi in the smuggler story who doesn't understand sarcasm, or flirty, or the concept of this strange concept called "attraction". It is all alien to her because she has essentially become like a robot, the only part of humanity she might have left is sympathy for others but if one isn't allowed to have such emotional connections why the hell do they even care to protect everyone? What a paradox.

 

Sith Code is evolutionary extremism, advancement, hierarchy, survival. More primal. But pragmatic. It is survival and self prevalence and finding strength within oneself, never relying on others for inner strength. How can we be strong if everyone has to hold our hand? We shouldn't lean on others for strength, but ourselves. Sure, being there for someone is ok but leaning on them for stability is another and only weakens the other from that dependence. There are definitely good things that the sith do indeed possess. However, it is the way they carry out with their interpretations that screw any potential over into a point of backstabbing, treachery, and we know a devided house will fall. Discarding morals may be to be a common view, but at the same time. . . Morality is a chain?

Well.

Morality = a chain to get rid of to have ones own control. . . ?

But what if morality is something to have because without it you only operate on instinct? In that way, morality (your own values from within) would be mastery over the self. Perhaps like the Jedi would believe, but better to not be bound by the morality. More like a flexible morality if anything, not stupid honor that is never crossed no matter what. Where pragmatic survival would come into play, so long as it is in a way that shows their own power (this means not backstabbing stronger ones so that the weaker ones take over),. There are ways the code could be interpreted and utilized wonderfully I bet you. Merely unfortunate it isn't.

- - -

Peace is a lie, there is only passion = Passion can be utilized as a powerful tool to self advancement and even protecting others. Peace on the other hand IS a lie because logically "Peace" does not exist. Not true peace and harmony. It is a fairy tail concept, something we merely wish was true. This line as such is non sugar coated reality!

 

Through Passion, I gain Strength = Through force of Will or Determination you rise up, you have the power to achieve that which is desired.

 

Through Strength, I gain Power = You rise up bit by bit

 

Through Power, I gain Victory = You have achieved the desire. You have been self empowered!

 

Through Victory, My chains are broken = In achieving success you have raised yourself above the failings over others and have thus broken your chains of subservience or meagerness and become someone great or powerful. Thus not so much influenced by the powers that be, for you are the powers that be. Chains are represented by fear, uncertainty, self doubt, and even equality. According to bane. You surpass your doubts and become strong to thus rise above those who have not the strength or will to achieve what you yourself could achieve.

 

The Force Shall Free Me = Freedom equals the freedom from inhibition to truly become your potential. In the Sith's case, Influence, positions of power and authority, and no longer held back by insecurities thus strong in spirit.

 

- - -

 

There is no emotion, there is peace = Emotionless jedi's are everywhere. Some aren't. But some seriously take it into a point of becoming an emotionless passionless robot, becoming hardly functional. Losing common sense and personality. When jedi start to manifest emotion more, it shows up as arrogance and self righteousness which they remain blind to.

 

There is no Ignorance, there is knowledge = They store all the knowledge for their high ranking jedi only, as a library virtually no one has the permission to look at. A.k.a many universe spanning and historical secrets only the few may know. Many things outsiders are not allowed to know.

 

There is no Passion, there is Serenity = While it is true passion can be manipulated, the complete absence of it results in no personal drive or goals or purpose other than blind subservience which is what is needed.

 

There is no Chaos, There is Harmony = The universe seems pretty chaotic to me. Denial changes absolutely nothing, nor is it possible to achieve any physical harmony at all. Ever. In one's heart? To a degree, but there are always limits and we do NOT defeat our issues by denying them and avoiding them. We face them head on.

 

There is no Death, There is the Force = Technically if you no longer exist accept as "One with the Universe", then technically you do not retain any individuality. A body dies and rots away, to fade into the universe. Essentially you're still dead. Nothing changes that fact. If you no longer exist as your individuality you are dead. Period... Because individuality as all we have to define our existence.

 

Where the Jedi Code breaks down is with non-rabid Sith. You can quickly back ultra-orthodox Jedi into a corner of falling or failing the mission with " Not attacking you, not attacking you, not attacking you" trolling.

[GothaSidai]

Uh... my first post on this forum. Let's see where it goes.

 

For my being Sith was never about the Dark Side, Power, being evil or anything like that. It is more about passion and emotion. And this is the whole secret of it. While the Jedi Order tries to get rid of all emotional attachment the Sith would embrace it, thrive on it. And it includes all kind of emotion. From hatred, fear and anger over love and passion to empathy and compassion.

 

As Sith in the game I tend to stay neutral. Because I choose depending on the situation and how I feel about it. If someone pisses me off, they get zapped, if I like someone, I show my affection. If I feel something is unjust, then I fight against it. Many Sith limit themselves and only thrive on hatred, anger and fear (though they probably would not admit to the fear part^^). They become abominations and claim to be followers of the Dark Side (I do not believe there is a Dark or Light Side of the Force. There is only the Force and our Interpretation of it).

 

Peace is a lie, there is only passion.

--> That says it all and is the bases of what I believe.

 

Through passion, I gain strength.

--> Only if I feel real passion towards a cause, I can put myself towards it. A Jedi lacks this passion and will ultimately fail, for his will to succeed is limited.

 

Through strength, I gain power.

--> Knowing my passion, committing to it and embracing it is the greatest unity with oneself achievable and leads to ultimate power.

 

Through power, I gain victory.

--> Self explanatory, I guess^^

 

Through victory, my chains are broken.

--> Contrary to the Jedi believe of emotions limiting a the Force user, embracing and unifying with your emotions makes you free of any limits and will bring forward your true self.

 

The Force shall free me.

--> And the true self breaks out of the chains of norms, rules, perceptions and stereotypes and just is.

[SithKoriandr]

For sith passion means gaining power. It means being free to do what you want when you want to who you want. Maybe not to the individual PC sith, but to the general sith at large, passion just means ability to loom above those weaker than me.