Why the hate for players who do not know how to play?

[Tsillah]

What can you say....apparently there are a good number of players wanting to do group content without being a team player.

 

So you're not a team player and are a burden because of it and guess what...other people get annoyed by you...well they must be elitist.

 

You see, there's a difference. I am not talking about the guy that comes into a group and says, guys I've never done this before, can you help me? If people respond poorly to that it's elitist of course.

 

But the guy who...

Is way undergeared

Hasn't gotten all of his skills even though they are free

Never uses an interrupt

Never walks out of circles on the floor

DPS's when people die even though he is the healer

Tanks without using taunts

Has gear that belong to other roles or classes

Lies about achievements

Doesn't mention that he's clueless about said content and let's the group wipe various times before admitting to it

Ragequits when someone explains he made a mistake

etc.

 

Those are people who are not team players and should not do group content. They don't want to learn, they don't want to put in a basic effort to be a positive part of the group and just want others to carry them basically.

 

It's not elitist to get upset over this. I will take a noob who admits it and is willing to learn any day over a guy who has all achievements and gear but still can't tell left from right or run out of circles. We all have to learn it at some point but group content is about a group and if you are not willing to learn and be a team player you just shouldn't group up. Stick with the solo quests then.

[Halinalle]

Even 172 blues aren't enough, and if you don't have any augments and show up with 38k health, as someone did tonight, then one of two things is true:

 

Are you sure about that?

 

"But they are progression raiders!"

Are you sure? I mean... that tank opens with Saber Throw few times.

Edited July 19, 2015 by Halinalle

[cyrusramsey]

One of my more rewarding ingame experiences this year was while playing Battle of Rishi HM. The tank and I (I was on my healer) had done it a few times already, tank called out a few basic instructions before the fights. Both dps admitted they were new to HMs after a wipe, they lacked a lot of knowledge but followed instructions fairly well and it was very nice to actually see them improve as we went on.

 

On the other hand, I lose patience very quickly when people clearly don't know what they're doing and seem under the impression that nobody will notice if they just stay very quiet about it, even when asked directly.

 

There are jerks in this game, it can suck, but if you don't know what you're doing, people will see it anyway, best you tell them yourself.

Edited July 19, 2015 by cyrusramsey

[Heat-Wave]

Are you sure about that?

 

"But they are progression raiders!"

Are you sure? I mean... that tank opens with Saber Throw few times.

 

Yes, I'm sure...

 

There are always exceptions, but I've played enough to know that it just isn't worth the trouble to try when gear is so easy to come by. The majority of people, in my experience, who show up in 172, are not worth doing such content with, either because they lack the knowledge and skill, or want the be carried. I don't run want to run a 60 HM with either.

 

178 and 190 gear is free from story content, at least show up in those. And while augments aren't free, they are no longer all that expensive either.

 

I've had people say to me, "yea, I could afford to augment, but I'm just too cheap to spend the credits". Ok, fair enough, that is your choice, but then don't be shocked when you get vote kicked from various content.

[Kalfear]

Because folks don't have the patients to socialize with others or teach folks.

 

On the Flip side.

 

Some folks don't want to learn or look at constructive criticism as insults.

 

Welp Im actually a hugely social player inside game but on this one topic I hit my fill of lazy players and drew a hard line in regards to groupfinder end game flashpoints

 

its not my job to TEACH someone at level 50-55-60 about rotations, what skills they have, where to get items, ect

 

Those are all things you LEARN during leveling up

And thats the same for everyone

 

If your talking about pre end game flashpoints

I actually find groups very forgiving of new players learning their roles

 

but if your are trying to learn the basics in end game tactical and hardmode

Sorry, thats completely on the player themselves

 

And lets be clear

Its not a issue of elitist vrs good vrs bad when it comes to end game (in this scenario)

Its an issue of lazy players expecting strangers to carry them through content

 

Personally I will carry a friend or guildmate through content a couple times only

I will not Power Level or carry strangers through content anymore

 

You're level 15 trying to do level 20 content because your racing through your storyline only and skipping everything else (obviously not a issue during 12 times xp for subs but you still see requests like this from preferred and F2P players). Don't ask me cause it will never happen.

 

You're level 15 and need suggestion of good area to level in or what build is better (IMO) I'll gladly answer. But do not expect Power leveling.

 

And not knowing how to play should never be a issue after level 50.

By then you should have an idea at least about your rotation,

you should have blue or better gear within a few levels of your level

you should know where your threat drop is

you should understand simple basics like DPS do not jump ahead of tanks, do not break cc, follow group around mobs rather then through mobs

simple stuff like that

 

But honestly I gave up all hope on PUGs when a guy in level 15 blue gear queued up for Manaan flash point and thought that was just fine and didn't see the issue

 

 

PS: Should point out if a person does this

 

You see, there's a difference. I am not talking about the guy that comes into a group and says, guys I've never done this before, can you help me? .

 

at start of a Flashpoint they buy themselves a ton of leeway and take the pressure off themselves

 

these types Ill still try to help instruction and suggestion wise

 

But Ive rarely seen someone start a flashpoint with that admittance be a problem group player. Its normally the ones that say nothing and just do things how they want to do it that cause trouble

Edited July 19, 2015 by Kalfear

[MuzluPasta]

The game doesn't teach players how to play. It is the game's fault. Tutorials on moving with W,A,S,D is laughable.

I don't vote kick people, but if a HM FP group can't kill a normal boss in 3 attemps -> Force Cloak -> Exit Group

I can't teach people rotations in a FP run, nor compensate for their bad gear.

There are lots of players like this and you can't spend time on every one of them. Same goes for operations. In the end they waste other players' time.

 

This is an MMO. Join a guild if you have no idea what to do. This wasn't my first MMO, had played and still playing Eve Online, but it was so unfamiliar. Joined a guild, got the ropes.

 

If you don't want to join a guild for any reason such as being shy, "solo" person or "don't have time", I'm sorry but an MMO isn't a fit for you. RPGs are a better fit.

 

This isn't KOTOR 3, yet, so wait long enough and it will be.

[adormitul]

The game doesn't teach players how to play. It is the game's fault. Tutorials on moving with W,A,S,D is laughable.

I don't vote kick people, but if a HM FP group can't kill a normal boss in 3 attemps -> Force Cloak -> Exit Group

I can't teach people rotations in a FP run, nor compensate for their bad gear.

There are lots of players like this and you can't spend time on every one of them. Same goes for operations. In the end they waste other players' time.

 

This is an MMO. Join a guild if you have no idea what to do. This wasn't my first MMO, had played and still playing Eve Online, but it was so unfamiliar. Joined a guild, got the ropes.

 

If you don't want to join a guild for any reason such as being shy, "solo" person or "don't have time", I'm sorry but an MMO isn't a fit for you. RPGs are a better fit.

 

This isn't KOTOR 3, yet, so wait long enough and it will be.

I was in a great guild before my long break and even so I was the weakest player there. Even so nobody kicked me out of a FP or OP because I was a member of their guild. I did not breack cc or attacked before the tank but my rotation sucked and my damage was subpar. For example it sucked so much I only did double the damage of a tank. You have to do more then double.

Still what I do not get is why many get pissed in a non HM FP because their so easy you can finish them with your companion in many cases.

[Halinalle]

And while augments aren't free, they are no longer all that expensive either.

 

Unless you're smuggler/IA they are quite expensive. Same applies to mainhand 186 hilts/barrels.

 

Also:

- Augments aren't required for hard mode flashpoints

- Augments will help a lot in operations though. Even then unless you have 192+ token relics/implants/earpiece those aren't worth augmenting. To add augment slot you have to pay 45k credits. Let's just ignore the fact how many credits it requires to create one augmentation kit.

[Cox_The_Beast]

I apologize for the wall of text below, but I'd like to give my 2cents about this topic aswell.

 

I don't hate players who don't know hot to play, myself. I hate those who ignore the pointers that are given to them.

I like to think of myself as a fairly patient player, supportive and always ready to help. I tend to explain things, rather than just kick or resort to insults. In fact I rarely, if ever, take that approach, for it is not productive.

 

However, while I don't mind giving a few pointers and hints on what to do if a team can't defeat a boss or go through a part of a FP/Op, there's one thing I can't do: solo that kind of stuff on the level to take others beyond that point. As such, if a player comes into group content with:

- too low rating gear

- gear with the wrong mainstat or assortment of secondary stats

- wrong armor kind (PT in Light Armor, to make an example, as I've seen after that armor apparel thing)

- no idea how to use anything but the basic attack (sadly, saw this aswell)

- no idea Interrupting a cast is a possibility, and sometimes a necessity

- if you get a skill that "removes DoTs and effects of that kind" it's usually a good idea to use it

- no clue that glowing circles on the ground tend to forewarn about a powerful attack coming there

Then I'll likely resort to a kick after the reasonable couple attempts at hinting and explaining, if that doesn't go through.

 

Because sadly, especially since 12Exp up, I noticed two kinds of bad attitude spread to 50+ gameplay moreso than before:

- no patience to even listen to suggestions

- bad attitude along the lines of "If you're so pro you should be capable of carrying me through this in your sleep"

While I consider myself a seasoned player, game mechanics are something that cannot be skipped. If some content is for 8 players at top level, there's no way a single guy at that level, even with more than average gear, can carry 7 others through.

I consider that attitude as the mark of a bad player, for he (or she, no idea who's behind the monitor after all) doesn't care about the other players who are struggling just because of him.

 

When I was still new, I started as a Guardian Tank. I had no idea what being a Tank meant, but luckily I was given some explanations during my first run of a FP. My performance was clearly less than perfect, but acceptable. Just because I actually listened to what I was being told.

Now, among the people I found underperforming, with bad gear or simply wrong gear recently at higher level than 50, about 60% had this attitude. The rest was simply clueless or confused, and those I helped.

 

The problem, I feel, is that a you don't need to learn to play to go through the game, right now. It sure helps, but that's no longer a necessity. Especially, not with 12Exp.

If the game actually made you learn how to gear properly, how to use interrupts, how to correctly play your Discipline... Then I'm quite sure we'd have less players at top level, for a time, but of far better quality. Sadly, this is not the case right now.

 

I lost the count of how many people I saw with exceedingly low level gear getting mad that others called them undergeared or a liability - that's what they are, with lvl 13 [insert piece of gear here, even more than one] in a 60 HM FP - because "Hey, I'm top level!" or "Shut up, what would you know, you're a Sorcerer, I'm a [insert whatever other class here]". That hurts other players.

I understand it makes more people pay for the game, but seriously... I cannot condone this as "Bad players are bad". Because while it's their fault at about 50%, the other 50% comes from the fact the game doesn't properly instruct players on those topics.

 

TL;DR: I don't hate clueless players. I hate clueless players who can't be bothered to listen to hte hints that others give them.

[Halinalle]

- wrong armor kind (PT in Light Armor, to make an example, as I've seen after that armor apparel thing)

 

The old "can't tank in light armor" meme is still here it seems.

 

Now I really want to put consular armor pieces to one of the outfit designer tabs on my Merc/Commando. Thanks for the tip.

Edited July 19, 2015 by Halinalle

[GalacticStarfigh]

The game doesn't teach players how to play. It is the game's fault. .

 

 

Community has, for the large part, grown completely alienated from the entire concept of difficulty being present as something to experience in their video game at all. Content that challenges you in any way. Content that requires you to - learn - something. Content that gods forbid, is genuinely difficult. None of this is something that would have been present in any way as live dev element for talking head fans in several years. Vanilla had some of those moments, and Makeb..well, last fight was excellent IIRC. Ever since then, it has been all about doing FPs with a droid that could solo them just fine without you. lol. Last boss fight of the current story expansion is something your companion can solo for the love of ged.

[Turajin]

- too low rating gear

The problem I see here is tht, from a casual gamers poiunt of view, the gear-rating is a somehow incomprehensible thing. I do not understand why there is 186-rating gear, or 192-rating gear, or whatever the numbers might be. I'd say it would have been much easier if the gear rating would be similar to your level, thus the gear rating would range from 1 to 55 (or 60/65 with the new expansions). Everyone would intuitively know that a lvl 40 character needs lvl 40 equipment.

 

I, even after playing the game for 2 years now, still don't understand the rating numbers of all the equipment pieces and simply look at the "what level do you have to be able to use this thing"-entry to know wether that thing is useful or not.

 

- gear with the wrong mainstat or assortment of secondary stats

Again, I'd say this is a proplem of the game not being accurate enough in regard of explainiung things, combined with being (in this regard) a bit non-logical. For example, if I roll a smuggler, who uses guns, it would sound, at first glance, logical to give him equipment that enhances "aim", since "gun=ranged weapon" and "aim=stat that is necesseray for ranged weapons" are logical-chains that propably everyone would come up with his common sense. That it is not helpful, and "cunning" is all a smuggler need, regardless wether he uses blasters or not, is not that obvious.

 

- no idea Interrupting a cast is a possibility, and sometimes a necessity

While the first is easy to recognize (just read skill describtions), the latter is far from obvious. When I was playing though my sith-warrior (one of my first toons), I never ever used interrupts, because they just seemd not worth using them (especially with that long cooldown). The first time I used intentionally was during the final fight of the main storyline, but even then only during the second try (after I got crushed by that uberattack - whatever it's name is - that Darth Baras uses during that fight during the first try).

[Sith-Viscera]

Elitism is common in pretty much any game with a multiplayer aspect. For some reason, being skillful (or being under the false impression that one is skillful) in video games boosts a person's ego more than is deserved.

 

It's a shame that it happens, and it ticks me off that people do it.

 

I Concur. I also like to add, that the Internet makes people feel, TEN FEET TALL and BULLET PROOF. All high and mighty as well as righteous. But the majority of level headed people know. That, they are just as flawed as everyone else is. it's the others, that are to Ignorant to realize it them selves. That in a normal group, a Face to Face setting. People wouldn't say the crap that they do to one another. But here in a Social media environment, the PROVERBIAL GLOVES are OFF.....

 

" It's a Shame" Indeed.....

 

Take Care, And Be Well.......

[Cox_The_Beast]

The old "can't tank in light armor" meme is still here it seems.

 

Now I really want to put consular armor pieces to one of the outfit designer tabs on my Merc/Commando. Thanks for the tip.

 

Yeah, apparently not everyone understood that outfit designer works by placing what you want to use in hte main tab and what you want to look like in the other one at the side... Well, not this guy, at least.

 

Still, saw so many weird things since 12Exp, this isn't even worth a mention as something special.

 

The problem I see here is tht, from a casual gamers poiunt of view, the gear-rating is a somehow incomprehensible thing. I do not understand why there is 186-rating gear, or 192-rating gear, or whatever the numbers might be. I'd say it would have been much easier if the gear rating would be similar to your level, thus the gear rating would range from 1 to 55 (or 60/65 with the new expansions). Everyone would intuitively know that a lvl 40 character needs lvl 40 equipment.

 

I, even after playing the game for 2 years now, still don't understand the rating numbers of all the equipment pieces and simply look at the "what level do you have to be able to use this thing"-entry to know wether that thing is useful or not.

 

That's true, I tend to agree. In fact, I said something about how the game doesn't really teach you how to gear.

Then again, if you have that belt ever since lvl 13 at 60, it's kind of obvious that you should upgrade it, isn't it?

 

Again, I'd say this is a proplem of the game not being accurate enough in regard of explainiung things, combined with being (in this regard) a bit non-logical. For example, if I roll a smuggler, who uses guns, it would sound, at first glance, logical to give him equipment that enhances "aim", since "gun=ranged weapon" and "aim=stat that is necesseray for ranged weapons" are logical-chains that propably everyone would come up with his common sense. That it is not helpful, and "cunning" is all a smuggler need, regardless wether he uses blasters or not, is not that obvious.

 

Like I said above.

 

While the first is easy to recognize (just read skill describtions), the latter is far from obvious. When I was playing though my sith-warrior (one of my first toons), I never ever used interrupts, because they just seemd not worth using them (especially with that long cooldown). The first time I used intentionally was during the final fight of the main storyline, but even then only during the second try (after I got crushed by that uberattack - whatever it's name is - that Darth Baras uses during that fight during the first try).

 

That's actually what I meant. There always was a point in the game where you were forced to use something not directly damaging to pass through. CCs, stuns, interrupts, pushbacks... You name it.

Sadly, most clueless ppl just beg for help to pass through those key points most of the times (I lost hte count of how many "I can't beat the final boss of the story, someone help" I saw whyle levelling my alts since 12Exp), and there's bound to be a good soul who helps them at a point... The problem is, by doing that they just delay the brick wall.

Edited July 19, 2015 by Cox_The_Beast

[Vashadan]

I would not call it hate but rather being annoyed by:

 

-Those who need on EVERYTHING in Flashpoints, even after being told several times not to

-Those who pull before the tank and either end up dying or making healer/tank die and eventually cause a wipe

-Those who come into any form of group content wearing the wrong gear for their class/spec, and this goes especially for our favorite minigame of PvP

-Those who make fun of a players character name, looks or general gaming behavior (RP ppl tend to be called out on these things alot)

-Those who tell others to skip cutscenes at least twice per convo...yes, I have seen Kuat plenty of times too, just bare with the 2minutes it takes for Ranken to show off her pretty face

 

We all had our bad days but I can not remember the last time I innitiated a vote kick for a player...usually some1 else does that ahead of me.

 

Now, I have been around for a long time and I do not mind helping others. There have been plenty of ppl who asked me how this and that works, how to be better or even explain boss mechanics in chat by typing several lines and answering followup questions.

I do not assume everybody to know how a certain challenge works but my real hate goes to those who tell other to L2P or call them nabs/scrubs/losers.

There is 1 thing to remember about this topic, it is the internet that guarantees anonymity and frankly...some ppl just want to see the world burn.

[AlrikFassbauer]

The old "can't tank in light armor" meme is still here it seems.

 

Meanwhile I've never seen a Consular in heavy armor.

 

On-topic : What actually frightens me is that :

 

- the better the players become (through sheer training through sheer LOTS of playing FPs, OPs and everything else)

 

the more they - these players who have actually mastered everything -

 

are whining about

- content is too easy

- everything's dombed down

- no challenge anymore

- youngers have it easier than I had

- everything's become FAR too easy

- booooooooooooooooringly easy

- etc. etc.

 

and this pure whining is coming from THE MASTERS !

 

OF COURSE they perceive & experience everything as boooooooringly easy - BECAUSE they have MASTERED everything !

 

But - with their whining they put so much more pressure on Newbies because they FULLY expect

 

(slightly exaggerated to point out to hat I mean)

 

- Newbies having the same skill on day 1 like those who have played the game for 4 years

- Newbies being as skillful on day 1 as those who have played the game for 4 years

- Newbies being as fast in their reflexes on day 1 as those who have played the game for 4 years

- Newbies knowing EVERYTHING regarding in-game mechanics on day 1 LIKE those who have been playing the game for 4 years ...

 

So, this whining of Master-Players just doesn't let Newbies ANY room, time an d space to actually GROW.

 

To those Master-Players, the concept of "growing" is totally alien, because they've already out-grown7i] everything without noticing !

 

It's like a grandfather saying to the kid tht the kid is just not as skill ful as the grandfather is.

Well, a wise grandfather will realize that the kid just isn't because he, the grandfarther, is just so much older ...

 

But young gamers just aren't that wise. And when they aren't they are beginning to hate Newbies who can't know or do everything like they can.

 

Besides, an Addendum : https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shoshin

Edited July 19, 2015 by AlrikFassbauer

[Halinalle]

Meanwhile I've never seen a Consular in heavy armor.

 

So, you are just ignoring the fact that Shadows/Assassins were, when played correctly, best tanks pre-3.0.

Edited July 19, 2015 by Halinalle

[Eanelinea]

I had someone tell me straight up they held hate, malice and discontent for me because when I was learning how SWTOR does raids and gearing (compared to others and there is a difference even if it's the same sort of) because I would put comm gear enhancements or those dropped (not the token set piece armor) into my enhancement slots. I was trying to figure out the best min/max and someone now hates my guts because I'd put a lower standard enhancement instead of a raid tier level enhancement in my armor. Now THAT is just some dumb retarded **** right there. This is why I tell raiders, progs or regular, that until they pay my subsciption I do what **I** want and not what they want. (I do this if they're britches start to get too big for them)

 

Some raiders or gamers in general take these games way too seriously. The games are here for our enjoyment and entertainment, not to be ***** about it.

 

BTW, I've since learned by now.

[thewitchdoctor]

... but I'd like to give my 2cents about this topic as well.

 

Me too.

 

***

 

I think we have to separate 'hate' from its 'gamer-speak' meaning and its actual definition. Hyperbole is part and parcel to online communication these days. Its no different than how everything was 'gay' some 10-15 years ago. Doesn't make it right, and it certainly doesn't hallmark the user as particularly well-spoken, but I think it clarifies some of the issues here.

 

Without picking out choice comments from both camps, there is merit to each side of this 'argument' in general terms.

 

It is beneficial to help new people out. That new person today may be your progression teammate in 6 months. But it also isn't any one player's responsibility to teach, either. Likewise, there shouldn't be a free pass for the unsociable or those who simply 'don't care.' This isn't a single-player game: showing up for group content unable or unwilling to perform your role is a waste of 3, 7 or 15 other peoples' time. There should still be some cognizance of others, even in a virtual world.

 

The game may not be the best teacher, but it isn't quantum physics either. The tooltips are at least clear enough that it should present the thought to the average person that maybe they should open a browser and use Google.

[Laris_Rai]

I'm cool with helping people who are new when it comes to FPs and the like. I don't do those often since I'm mostly PvE. But it you make it to the fleet and still don't know how to use your map you get what you deserve for putting "Where is the trainer?" in general chat.

[Icestar]

But it you make it to the fleet and still don't know how to use your map you get what you deserve for putting "Where is the trainer?" in general chat.

 

Why?

 

It takes no time at all for a player to reach fleet with this X12 exp, it is natural that some does not know that.

 

The reply to any question a newbie asks is a proper friendly answer.

Edited July 19, 2015 by Icestar

[Halinalle]

I'm cool with helping people who are new when it comes to FPs and the like. I don't do those often since I'm mostly PvE. But it you make it to the fleet and still don't know how to use your map you get what you deserve for putting "Where is the trainer?" in general chat.

 

"Where's entrance to Directive 7?"

"Where I can find the skill mentor?"

 

These are just two examples of things you don't learn on starting planet.

 

In fact, if you never go to interfleet transport you'll never know about the two other ships. Why? because currently there's no reason to go to those other ships.

Edited July 19, 2015 by Halinalle

[Tsillah]

"Where's entrance to Directive 7?"

"Where I can find the skill mentor?"

 

These are just two examples of things you don't learn on starting planet.

 

In fact, if you never go to interfleet transport you'll never know about the two other ships. Why? because currently there's no reason to go to those other ships.

 

There are many things that are not force fed to people as I call it. MMOs are about discovering stuff and learning things as you go along. I think it's part of the genre.

 

I do understand why people have questions but the flip side is that if you've played for a while and see the same questions pop up again and again it just gets a bit tiresome to explain it over and over.

 

What does make me wonder though is people who ask those questions while being in a guild. I've checked on various occasions and they had guildies online. I think one element in this is that being helpful to new members is not standard procedure in guilds. Some do, some don't. Sad really.

[Nvassea]

The reply to any question a newbie asks is a proper friendly answer.

 

^ This. It absolutely blows my mind that people say stuff like "alt+f4 to close chat", instead of trying to give a legit answer, or simply not responding. There are new players and they're probably asking because they don't know. This kind of stuff happening every bloody time someone asks a question frustrates me, I can only imagine how irritating it is for them. You ask for help on a game, two strangers each give you a different answer, you try the first answer.... Ooops, they were trolling you, now you have to reload the game.

 

Blah. I'm getting irritated just typing about it. Point is, just try and help people, or say nothing. Don't be that jerk that ruins a new player's first impression of a game.

[Darturion]

it's a multiplayer game. flashpoints are co-operative. a bad player's performance directly affects other players' experience.

 

now it makes more sense to kick the bad player than antagonizing them but i digress.

 

If one is elite, then they can shore up the bad player's shortfalls.

 

If one cannot, then one is not elite.

 

You cannot have it both ways.

Edited July 19, 2015 by Darturion