Limit Solo Mode

[DarthDymond]

Choice = good.

No choice = bad.

 

That is all.

So why would you want to take or limit a playstyle for people?

[various other comments along the same lines]

Game design includes, as a huge core element, the 'funneling' of players where the designers want them to go - including funneling players to certain activities. It's nice when that can be accomplished via incentives, things like the additional bonus Comms you get from using Group Finder, but sometimes it is accomplished through limiting players' options, like with weekly lockouts on Operations, capping the total number of Comms you can have, or limiting repeatable missions to once-per-day (or -week).

 

If a game needs [X] number of players to be engaging in a certain activity, say SM Flashpoint queues, in order for that activity to remain viable, then the game certainly better have its incentives and limitations set up in such a way that it will funnel [X] players into that activity.

 

We can disagree over whether Group FPs are really in a state where they need additional incentives and restrictions to help funnel people into them, we can disagree over which incentives or restrictions would be the best approach, and we can even disagree over whether Group FPs should just be written off as a bad idea altogether, but it's just not the case that limiting player choice is 'always' bad for a game - many times it is necessary.

Edited July 17, 2015 by DarthDymond

[RoboArthurDayne]

So why would you want to take or limit a playstyle for people? And no, adding soloable content does not make this a solo game. It simply adds options. As odd to some as it may seem, people do enjoy both group and solo play within the same game world. It's one of the great things about most MMO's. Options within a shared game world.

 

Well said. Choice is always better for the player (human beings) and the only time it seems to be a bad thing is when someone has to make up a what if situation where somehow it is a bad thing for the entity called "the game" and then presume that the Entity Game somehow "needs" players funneled to this event through limitations of human choice.... it's just a damn game, holy ---- (shakes head).

 

More choice is in this game is always a good thing, End of Story.

[DarthDymond]

Well said. Choice is always better for the player (human beings) and the only time it seems to be a bad thing is when someone has to make up a what if situation where somehow it is a bad thing for the entity called "the game" and then presume that the Entity Game somehow "needs" players funneled to this event through limitations of human choice.... it's just a damn game, holy ---- (shakes head).

 

More choice is in this game is always a good thing, End of Story.

By that logic, comm limits, weekly lockouts, minimum level requirements, and all other aspects of the game that deliberately limit player freedom are there because... why exactly?

Edited July 17, 2015 by DarthDymond

[Muljo_Stpho]

The solo modes for Forged Alliances started out as one time only, but I guess there were issues with people making the quest line impossible for themselves to complete (not sure how, something about resetting a mission / phase for whatever reason and that got something into a bugged state that wouldn't progress?) and the devs had to change them to dailies to allow these people to complete the quest line. I don't think I'd count on seeing them go back to implement a different solution to the problem. I think having them set up as dailies is going to stay.

 

Anyway, as I recall... they lowered the xp and credits rewards from these to compensate for making them repeatable. And actually, even before those were changed to be repeatable, weren't they already less rewarding than the group versions anyway by having all the randomized loot removed?

 

Wouldn't this be the same model that would be likely to be carried over into the new solo modes? Repeatable, but only as a daily (not infinitely repeatable like the regular story mode). Reduced rewards and reduced random drops compared to running the group version (probably not getting much more than a few comms out of it except at the end if you were also running the mission (from a breadcrumb pickup on fleet or whichever planet) that calls for that flashpoint, in which case the breadcrumb mission would grant a one time only special reward).

 

How much more limited than that could you possibly think the solo run really needs to be?

Edited July 17, 2015 by Muljo_Stpho

[flaviusthelewd]

That is not what I meant at all, and your attitude is unnecessary.

 

And it's that bolded part that is the problem; your attitude singles out a huge problem. If everyone wants everything solo, they should just make this a single player game. But it's hard to do flashpoints because everybody is so self-involved. I'm just trying to get this community to actually be more like a community, and there is nothing wrong with that.

 

Don't worry about him..hes just another one of the trolls that add to this games already incredibly toxic community...You are 100% correct in the fact that they are slowly converting this into a single player subscription based game and are basically just catering to the casuals...Skyforge is looking good for being in beta so I'm hoping it shapes out to be something I can use to replace swtor...

[Obsidian_Stone]

Game design includes, as a huge core element, the 'funneling' of players where the designers want them to go - including funneling players to certain activities. It's nice when that can be accomplished via incentives, things like the additional bonus Comms you get from using Group Finder, but sometimes it is accomplished through limiting players' options, like with weekly lockouts on Operations, capping the total number of Comms you can have, or limiting repeatable missions to once-per-day (or -week).

 

If a game needs [X] number of players to be engaging in a certain activity, say SM Flashpoint queues, in order for that activity to remain viable, then the game certainly better have its incentives and limitations set up in such a way that it will funnel [X] players into that activity.

 

We can disagree over whether Group FPs are really in a state where they need additional incentives and restrictions to help funnel people into them, we can disagree over which incentives or restrictions would be the best approach, and we can even disagree over whether Group FPs should just be written off as a bad idea altogether, but it's just not the case that limiting player choice is 'always' bad for a game - many times it is necessary.

 

See, I agree with a lot of what you say here. Yes absolutely Devs can and should funnel as they see fit so as to unveil the world they have created. It's their world, their rules. But I disagree that limiting should be they way that's achieved. Incentives are great. Play through something solo, get solo rewards. Group play/harder content, get more deserving rewards. But placing limitations, to use your own example, like they do with timers and lockouts, well that's artificially increasing the shelf life of content and keeping the carrot on the stick.

 

I'm not trying to say by that, that I think we should be allowed to run ops constantly so we can gear up in a day, or that we should be able repeat dailies back to back in the same area to grind out mad stacks of creds. I understand why these limits are in place. But I also think it's stale in a way. In so much as years ago I would have thought a new system would have developed to handle such things by now.

 

Now I personally don't have an alternative, so I'm not much help with the specific examples above. I do however believe that the more we can remove limits from games, especially MMO's, the better they will become. And I'm not suggesting that limits go away in the sense that this become a sandbox, just that certain limits go away so we can all enjoy the game at a pace, in a way that suits our wants/needs in a particular moment.

 

And for the record, I love group content. FP's and PvP the most. But I also like to just do whatever at times. And I like that freedom. As soon as you 'force' me into something, well I stop enjoying it. ( I say 'force' because let's face it, it's a game that I freely choose to play) If they removed my ability to create a group, or add people to my friends list, I would consider that 'forcing' me into something as well. I'm just for the idea of options. MMO's have been around for decades. We should have options and be able to 'play our way' like so many MMO's advertise.

 

I always hated it when my mother tried to force me to be friends with other kids. Always had a better time when I got to choose when, where, how, and who I got up to shenanigans with.

 

Just saying.

[GythralSWTOR]

A big fat No

 

If anything it should be the other way around, nothing should force people to group, but all the group content should have incentives for doing it

 

Cakes work, everyone hates sticks!

[therandyman]

If anything it should be the other way around, nothing should force people to group, but all the group content should have incentives for doing it.

 

Positive incentives produce desired behavior far more effectively than demands for desired behavior.

[Seroneth]

If I understand correctly, we will be able to do solo mode fps more than the first initial time? If I understand incorrectly, someone please correct me.

 

My concern is that this is yet another step away from keeping this game an active MMO. If the developers keep making things solo-able, what's the point of having this an MMO? They should be rewarding people for coming together. For instance, FF14 has a really good community. I've rarely run into rude people. People are rewarded with commendations by other players for congeniality and/or good work, and if players get enough, they get awards like special mounts or titles. There is also world content that people participate in together. It's generally a fun environment to be in that emphasizes group work.

 

So I have some suggestions to fix this.

 

1) Only have solo mode available for one time access for flashpoints. It doesn't need to be the first time if you want to run through it with your friends or guildmates, but if you want to record your story or just watch it yourself, you have the opportunity.

 

I definitely disagree to this.... Some people don't have a life style that permits them to wait for a group or even to do some of the harder group content that may take more than an hour to accomplish. I love the idea of being able to solo content. It makes it easier for me and my schedule. I've been playing MMO's for years, but I'm getting to a point in my life where I cant do raiding like I used to...I just don't have the time. The solo option is good, and allows me to play a game I really like playing without the constraint of having to do so in a group.

 

Also, keep in mind..this game is an MMO, but it's roots (KoTOR 1 and 2) are solo games that were considered the best games of their time. People who were fans of those games came over to ToR because it was supposed to be an MMO version of those games...and MMO with amazing story telling (which imo means in essence an MMO with solo story and content, but that you have the option to play in a group if you want.) If BW was to limit the solo content they would lose too many folks. The core fans of this game (not all of them, but I would bet most of them) were KoTOR fans who love the idea of an ever expanding KoTOR game that can be played with friends but doesnt HAVE to be.

 

3) Queue times can be horrible, so make the fps and ops cross-servers. I would also add to put an approximation timer and roles up so that someone can see approximately how long their queue might be and also see what roles are missing. Many times I've given up on the group finder, but if I had seen that all we were missing was a healer or another dps, I might hang in a bit longer ( on the other hand, if I've been waiting long and I see nobody else is in the roles, I can drop confidently).

 

I wholly agree with this statement, and the que times are probly the biggest reason for the lower number of people willing to do "group" content. I would gladly do a FP with a group if I didnt have to wait 30 to 45 minutes before I can even start....I dont have the time for that. =p

 

I hope something of this gets implemented. The game feels more like single player as it goes on and the game devs cave in to the people who are complaining because they can't solo something that is supposed to be for group content.

 

Well, when you don't have the time for forming the group it makes it difficult to experience all the aspects of the game...by them allowing the solo content I get to play all the content of a game I've been a fan of since it came out. To me, and this is just my opinion, SWToR was meant to be group optional to begin with. They started out with 8 distinct class stories...that your friends could join in with you if you wanted, but the stories were meant for solo play. The FP's and OP's fall into the category of "story"...and so shouldnt be any different from the rest of the game's story...which is soloable. I def understand making group only content seeing as this is an MMO and having a group facing a bad guy goes along with the story, but i like being able to solo things. I don't want that taken away from me.

[Vhaegrant]

If I understand correctly, we will be able to do solo mode fps more than the first initial time? If I understand incorrectly, someone please correct me.

 

Correction incoming...

 

Did you even read the developer blog on the changes to FPs and OPs?

http://www.swtor.com/blog/operations-and-flashpoints-fallen-empire

 

The solo options will be FPs that already had a one shot solo mode or were easily soloed as a level 60 character.

The tactical FPs will have a few of the older FPs added too them. And the majority of FPs will be available as a HM level 65 version.

 

If, as a solo content inclined player, I choose to run Battle of Ilum solo on my level 60 how does that have any impact on you? I would question whether this would be a good use of time, I certainly seem to rake in more credits and comms from running weeklies.

Seeing the few FPs added to the Solo FP list it seems to be the ones required to complete the original Ilum sequence. That seems like a nice thing for the devs to do allowing story focused players the chance to slol that content at the point it is introduced.

 

Going forward, I've always found the most intimidating factor of running FPs and OPs is other players that expect you to know all tactics and be overgeared despite it being your first time there.

I've noticed in guilds the OPs teams tend to form little cliques that only turn up when it's OPs night, leaving the guild a ghost town at all other times. If you can't get a place on those regular runs the guild may be nice enough to run open raids, but that has its own pitfalls. Most typically the veterans are overgeared and complacent, they've run the content so many times they have the shortcuts down to a fine art... bypass the trash skip straight to the boss fights.

Sorry, even in a guild situation that's not how I want to learn.

 

I would be more than willing to put the time into transitioning between mainly solo play to group play if I had a training mode that allowed me to figure out the tactics myself (without inconveniencing others, or being shouted at).

I would be even more inclined to join in group runs if the OP was not a long sequence of Bosses and instead single boss fight,

[branmakmuffin]

If I understand correctly, we will be able to do solo mode fps more than the first initial time? If I understand incorrectly, someone please correct me.

 

My concern is that this is yet another step away from keeping this game an active MMO. If the developers keep making things solo-able, what's the point of having this an MMO?

You're free to not play if it bothers you that much.

 

They should be rewarding people for coming together.

They do. It's called the Group Finder.

 

For instance, FF14 has a really good community. I've rarely run into rude people.

Except when you have. MMO players are MMO players. The only difference would be what culture (in our world) a game draws most of its players from.

 

So I have some suggestions to fix this.

"Fix" implies something needs fixing. You are starting off your assertions with a highly debatable premise.

 

make the fps and ops cross-servers

Now we get to the tl;dr. As noted many times in many threads, cross-server is not the cure-all people think it is because the ratios stay the same.

[ImmortalLowlife]

That is not what I meant at all, and your attitude is unnecessary.

 

And it's that bolded part that is the problem; your attitude singles out a huge problem. If everyone wants everything solo, they should just make this a single player game. But it's hard to do flashpoints because everybody is so self-involved. I'm just trying to get this community to actually be more like a community, and there is nothing wrong with that.

 

You know OP... I do understand what you're saying. Problem is....I don't have the patience to deal with most people on a good day. That's just ONE reason I play solo 99.9% of the time. Me trying to play swtor like an MMO is the reason I stopped playing a week after launch....because of the elitist attitudes and smart *** responses to simple questions from a 1st time MMO player. When I decided to give it another try two months later, I came back with the attitude "I'll ONLY play the parts I can play solo". And not only am I enjoying myself, but my subscription has NEVER lapsed. I very much play this like I would aSP RPG. I'm ONLY here for 3 reasons....

 

1. It's Star Wars

2. Kotor is my favorite game of ALL TIME (kotor 2 is in my top 10)

3. BW storytelling

 

I'm not interested in group content....so making it so I can only run a solo fp once will only accomplish one thing. I'll run it once, and never touch it again. I'm STILL not gonna group up.

 

But I do think the solo FP's should only give the absolute minimum in rewards and drops. The better rewards/drops should be reserved for those running in groups.

[branmakmuffin]

I'm just trying to get this community to actually be more like a community, and there is nothing wrong with that.

It's not your goal that is the issue. If you want to do group content, go ahead. If others want to do solo content, that's none of your business.

[Prapcaster]

#pveproblems

[Ashlian]

I played EQ1 from launch. My server, Mithaniel Marr, had a community that was usually helpful, in which a character's good name meant something and where everyone knew the best guilds and players by reputation. Everyone. A character being blacklisted for ninja looting or other general ***hattery was not unusual, and was truly painful for a couple of years until they allowed paid renames.

 

But why did we have such a strong sense of community? Camping. Endless camping. Killing the same fricking room of mobs every six minutes for days, if not weeks, or months in some cases, with essentially the same people who leveled at the same rate that you did. I still am friends with some of those people 15 years on, because we had literally nothing to do but talk for hours and hours while camping the loot diamonds among the vast amount of gear coal. I helped lead 72 person pickup raids later, and you saw the same people over and over, and raiding for sometimes ten hours in a row was a bonding experience. Kind of like MMO boot camp. You never forget something like attending the second (and for a LONG time, the last) pug raid to down Rallos Zek the Warlord. That crap mattered.

 

But I would rather never play another MMO than be forced to do any of that again. I can't believe I did it to begin with. I have no solution to the community problem because the best communities I have experienced were predicated on shared suffering. Talking to a fellow EQ1 vet is like joining an MMO Players Anonymous group. We mainly talk about how it was totally awesome in the same way binge drinking is awesome. Fun at the time, but jeez how bad it is in retrospective. And how we will never ever play that kind of game again.

 

There are totally people who would, and do. I, personally, will take the loss of community in exchange for my ability to see more content how I want and when I want. I spent too many years in games where solo content was group content you just had to LEARN to solo. And I did. Uphill, both ways in the virtual snow. But mainly I was forced to group to see new content and that sucked. I simply do not have the time or energy to group with strangers much anymore. I helped two new 55's complete Oricon today and it took me twice as long as I can do it solo. They were perfectly nice guys, but I was perfectly sick of herding them like cats when it was done. And group finder does nothing to foster community. Cross server would do even less. Every group finder I've run is a race to the end complete with spacebarring and a "ty for group" when it was over. Now if they made us camp something 12 hours straight together....but then I would /ragequit :-D

[tomcn]

If I understand correctly, we will be able to do solo mode fps more than the first initial time? If I understand incorrectly, someone please correct me.

 

My guess is that the FPs that have their levels increased and are also given a solo mode will be repeatable, in the same way that the Forged Alliances and SoR solo mode FPs are repeatable.

 

OP seems to imply that solo mode is incompatible with grouping. You can take a group into a solo mode FP. My RL partner and I always play together grouped up, and we play the Forged Alliances and SoR solo mode FPs together. The solo mode is more akin to a difficulty slider that is adjusted to "easy" difficulty.

 

As someone else mentioned, most of those FPs-to-be-retrofitted are currently soloable over and over again by level 60 toons. If they were changed to be soloable one time only, then KotFE would be taking away existing content.

 

We have seen a lot of acrimony on the forums lately regarding Bioware's renewed focus on story and lessened emphasis on forced-group PvE. It's sad and unfortunate. It would be nice if serious PVEers would instead support solo mode for FPs and operations as a way to get players interested in that kind of content. If someone does a solo mode operation by themselves, or in a duo, they may want to try in a group at a harder difficulty setting afterwards. With no solo mode, the player may never try it to begin with.

 

TL;DR raiders should see solo mode PvE content as a good thing because it might expose more players to their favorite kind of content.

[branmakmuffin]

I helped two new 55's complete Oricon today and it took me twice as long as I can do it solo. They were perfectly nice guys, but I was perfectly sick of herding them like cats when it was done.

I think we have your tl;dr right here. Agreed.

[DreadtechSavant]

One word.

 

 

NO!!

 

 

.....And No from me as well.

[soulseekerr]

I really feel compelled to voice my opinion here as well. No No No No No...please no.

 

As a few others have already discussed, a large part of the appeal to this game is the solo-able content, and the story that comes along with it. I have played many other MMO's over the years, and I can tell you that I have stuck with this one for a long time because of the stories. Also, as I've gotten older, I don't have time to do a lot of the group content. I certainly don't have time nor patience to sit in queue and wait for 45 minutes.

 

The soloable flashpoints are there as an option, but there's nothing saying you HAVE to do them in solo mode. While I have no doubt that queue times will suffer because of this change, that just goes to show how popular (or perhaps unpopular) forced grouping actually is.

 

As for cross-server queues... Yes, it will make queue times shorter, although not by as much as you might expect. Here's why: One only has to look at what has happened in other MMO's that implemented this to see where this change would lead. For example, After this was implemented in WoW, there was a major turn for the worse in terms of community as a whole. Trolling and general rudeness in LFG and LFR have almost become the norm over there, rather than considerate and cooperative gameplay. This is a major reason why I no longer play WoW. I also think it is one of many reasons why WoW is losing subscribers in droves.

[kingshaneo]

And why do people solo? I know I do because I'm tired of running into inconsiderate people. My ideas are to try to get people to start being less like jerks and more friendly. Reward players for playing great or having a good attitude. If more people were less douchey, wouldn't that encourage more people (perhaps even you) to group? And if the game is going to have group related things in their weeklies (like heroics), then shouldn't Bioware encourage players to work together more?

 

It's not like I'm asking for Bioware to eliminate all solo-able material, but if they are going to have an MMO, they should do things to support building a community.

 

i solo because that is how i like to play. plain and simple.

if you are tired of people that annoy you, join a guiild. make friends. i am not going to start to team if they take away my ability to play solo. i will just stop playing. it has nothing to do with whether or not the person is a douche. you could be the sweetest person in the world and i wouldn;t group with you.

i don't like team play. never have, never will.

 

the idea to reward people for a good attitude? go ahead. when you form a group, give out whatever reward you want to the nicest in the group. the incentive you think others need to group? provide it if you think it will work. i don't. .i think those that want to team up do.

 

you have to realize, like the devs and companies making these games did, that mmo simply means that many of us are on at a time. they realized that there are many of us who prefer the solo play and if the games do not provde for the solo players, the companies will lose tons of cash

 

Wow. Nice attitude. I'm not trying to force anyone to play a certain way, but this is an MMO... maybe you should go play a single player game if you are so against playing with others.

 

or, you could see that it is 2015, and us solo players are a very big group.

Edited July 18, 2015 by kingshaneo

[CabelHarn]

On board with most of the rest. I see no reason to not let the soloable FPs be repeatable.

 

I'm fine with them adding incentives to get people to group and reward each other, but that needs to be a carefully designed system so it's not abused by guilds.

 

There's no reason to eliminate repeatable solo FPs they're planning to add. Some people will just not do the FPs if there isn't a solo option, so you're not really helping yourself you're just hurting others who wouldn't do the content anyways as many have said.

 

I've done group content and yea it can be great w/ good people, but imop that is what guilds are for not random queueing.

[Hebruixe]

One Word.

 

YES!

 

Why is it necessary to nerf solo players? It would alienate a lot of us.

 

Buffing multiplayer rewards is fine. But don't punish those of us who choose to play alone.

[Damask_Rose]

I played EQ1 from launch. My server, Mithaniel Marr, had a community that was usually helpful, in which a character's good name meant something and where everyone knew the best guilds and players by reputation. Everyone. A character being blacklisted for ninja looting or other general ***hattery was not unusual, and was truly painful for a couple of years until they allowed paid renames.

 

But why did we have such a strong sense of community? Camping. Endless camping. Killing the same fricking room of mobs every six minutes for days, if not weeks, or months in some cases, with essentially the same people who leveled at the same rate that you did. I still am friends with some of those people 15 years on, because we had literally nothing to do but talk for hours and hours while camping the loot diamonds among the vast amount of gear coal. I helped lead 72 person pickup raids later, and you saw the same people over and over, and raiding for sometimes ten hours in a row was a bonding experience. Kind of like MMO boot camp. You never forget something like attending the second (and for a LONG time, the last) pug raid to down Rallos Zek the Warlord. That crap mattered.

 

But I would rather never play another MMO than be forced to do any of that again. I can't believe I did it to begin with. I have no solution to the community problem because the best communities I have experienced were predicated on shared suffering. Talking to a fellow EQ1 vet is like joining an MMO Players Anonymous group. We mainly talk about how it was totally awesome in the same way binge drinking is awesome. Fun at the time, but jeez how bad it is in retrospective. And how we will never ever play that kind of game again.

 

There are totally people who would, and do. I, personally, will take the loss of community in exchange for my ability to see more content how I want and when I want. I spent too many years in games where solo content was group content you just had to LEARN to solo. And I did. Uphill, both ways in the virtual snow. But mainly I was forced to group to see new content and that sucked. I simply do not have the time or energy to group with strangers much anymore. I helped two new 55's complete Oricon today and it took me twice as long as I can do it solo. They were perfectly nice guys, but I was perfectly sick of herding them like cats when it was done. And group finder does nothing to foster community. Cross server would do even less. Every group finder I've run is a race to the end complete with spacebarring and a "ty for group" when it was over. Now if they made us camp something 12 hours straight together....but then I would /ragequit :-D

 

I"m going to contrast this with Asheron's Call that came out a couple of months after EQ1.

 

AC was very solo friendly. There were few dungeons or mobs that required a group, and nothing that resembled "end game". (It took 1 year for the first max level character.) Yet we still had strong communities. We had tight knit clans (that's where I met my husband). We would hang out in town and chat a lot. Or we would chat in clan chat. Very social, yet very soloable.

[Zharik]

So perhaps instead of limiting solo mode, they could dangle a carrot for the people who run solo mode a lot?

 

Say after 4 solo-mode FPs, if you run a GF FP then you get double the GF rewards? Just spit-balling here, but the point that the Op is trying to make is that GF is kinda slow, and offering more solo mode options is not going to help that at all. This IS an MMORPG, not an RPG. While it *does* have excellent solo-ability, the basic appeal of an MMO is to be playing with other people.

 

Big fan of the carrot but not so much the stick, though.

[Lednew]

The OP's suggestion proceeds from a false assumption, which is this;

 

Limiting or restricting Solo Mode FPs will get more people into groups/Group Finder.

 

No, it won't. Players who don't want to deal with groups still won't want to deal with groups. What will happen, is that they will simply not run that content at all, or they will wait until the level cap is raised and they are overleveled and overgeared and just solo it anyway. In either case, it will not have the effect you're looking for.