Technohic Posted July 31, 2015 Share Posted July 31, 2015 (edited) Sorry but if they are going to do anything to roll, they need to start with other classes first. Sage/sorc is probably first in line and their healing ability while in DPS spec has got to be the top of the list and not the last of it. I'm undecided on where sins fit on this right at the moment but I do not feel they are as bad at the moment as people will make out. PT Burst would be before it. MM Sniper Burst will be there as well (and I am saying that as someone who hates that he had to leave his GS/snipers from being a main. That burst needs to go so the class can prosper in other ways. I am assuming that it is similar for PT in that it needs to go in order to also give love to pyro), and then start looking at god DCDs including operative roll and escapability across all classes. Healing output would need to be toned down except for merc/commando which should be buffed to a net gain while the other 2 are at a net loss, maybe changing something to be burst for operatives i at the same time as all of this. Edited July 31, 2015 by Technohic Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MusicRider Posted July 31, 2015 Share Posted July 31, 2015 Sorry but if they are going to do anything to roll, they need to start with other classes first. Sage/sorc is probably first in line and their healing ability while in DPS spec has got to be the top of the list and not the last of it. I'm undecided on where sins fit on this right at the moment but I do not feel they are as bad at the moment as people will make out. PT Burst would be before it. MM Sniper Burst will be there as well (and I am saying that as someone who hates that he had to leave his GS/snipers from being a main. That burst needs to go so the class can prosper in other ways. I am assuming that it is similar for PT in that it needs to go in order to also give love to pyro), and then start looking at god DCDs including operative roll and escapability across all classes. Healing output would need to be toned down except for merc/commando which should be buffed to a net gain while the other 2 are at a net loss, maybe changing something to be burst for operatives i at the same time as all of this. If you had read my post just above yours then you would have seen I said that 3.3 offhealing of sorc dps is too strong and needs toning down, but this is irrelevant to the topic of the thread which is the "operative roll". And I disagree that other things need to come "first". For example a nerf to the offhealing of the sorcs has nothing to do and will not change anything to operatives, unless you are referring to 1v1 in which case still operatives are the best duelling class by a large margin than anyone else, their arsenal gives them the means to have total control and many alternatives at every phase of combat. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mmmbuddah Posted July 31, 2015 Share Posted July 31, 2015 (edited) Edit : Quoted player is now on ignore. Edited July 31, 2015 by mmmbuddah Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mmmbuddah Posted July 31, 2015 Share Posted July 31, 2015 Sorry but if they are going to do anything to roll, they need to start with other classes first. Sage/sorc is probably first in line and their healing ability while in DPS spec has got to be the top of the list and not the last of it. I'm undecided on where sins fit on this right at the moment but I do not feel they are as bad at the moment as people will make out. PT Burst would be before it. MM Sniper Burst will be there as well (and I am saying that as someone who hates that he had to leave his GS/snipers from being a main. That burst needs to go so the class can prosper in other ways. I am assuming that it is similar for PT in that it needs to go in order to also give love to pyro), and then start looking at god DCDs including operative roll and escapability across all classes. Healing output would need to be toned down except for merc/commando which should be buffed to a net gain while the other 2 are at a net loss, maybe changing something to be burst for operatives i at the same time as all of this. Agree 100%. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Technohic Posted July 31, 2015 Share Posted July 31, 2015 If you had read my post just above yours then you would have seen I said that 3.3 offhealing of sorc dps is too strong and needs toning down, but this is irrelevant to the topic of the thread which is the "operative roll". And I disagree that other things need to come "first". For example a nerf to the offhealing of the sorcs has nothing to do and will not change anything to operatives, unless you are referring to 1v1 in which case still operatives are the best duelling class by a large margin than anyone else, their arsenal gives them the means to have total control and many alternatives at every phase of combat. It has everything to do with it in that there are 3 classes that have been outperforming everyone else by a large margin. You do not start by nailing number 4. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MusicRider Posted July 31, 2015 Share Posted July 31, 2015 (edited) It has everything to do with it in that there are 3 classes that have been outperforming everyone else by a large margin. You do not start by nailing number 4. That's not exactly true... Firstly, the ratings in solo-q show how well people q-sync and use team-speak. Speaking for sorcs as I have the most experience with they have taken several deserved nerfs since 3.0 and it's only the recent buff of dark heal due to corruption changes that has given them some (over)strength back. Overall, I think they are very close to the par line as far as solo-q balance is concerned and the solution is not to nerf them further (except from dark heal) but bring up merc and snipers up. And that is a tough thing to do cause especially snipers are one of the best classes for group ranked. In fact I think that pts, sins, sorcs, opers, jugs, maras (in no particular order) are pretty close to each other in terms of solo-q balance; with only mercs and snipers missing something to bring them up there also. Edited July 31, 2015 by MusicRider Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
stephenalandavie Posted July 31, 2015 Share Posted July 31, 2015 (edited) Actually, everyone hates you because your guilds ego is not ego, it is borderline sociopath, and the second you guys lose you whine and complain that it is everyone elses fault except your own. Let's not forget the AP PT stacking you guys do, or how the majority of your guild only use fotm classes. As for when you lose you just take it in stride, that's a laugh, you guys normally rage quit the second you realize you are about to lose. I can make up random lies too. The sky is purple and it rains gold. See. Easy. Funny how you say you played against me, yet I fail to ever see the listed characters in your sig. I would be inclined to believe you maybe, if you included said character in your sig. Anywho, no point in arguing with the troll king from guild trolltastia. Ignore list + 1. Lol The first one in my signature mate you was on your mando doing terribly. I Am sorry i can't help that you blow can i?. Edited July 31, 2015 by stephenalandavie Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
royhenderson Posted July 31, 2015 Share Posted July 31, 2015 It *********** blows my mind how overpowered that roll is. In hutball they should not be able to roll with the ball period. Yet i see them roll from the upper level to the touchdown in one simple roll. They should get their roll on a cool down not on a power usage situation. Yeah yeah all you ops will say but it consumes so much power and we dont have any other way to mitigate damage. Except you forget you have your shield or bubble what ever it is oh and you can heal no matter what spec you are. It is a broken power making you guys unstoppable PERIOD. Then I will get a bunch of premade guys saying oh its easy to kill the op when......... Yeah but it takes 3 or more guys to neutralize the op. So lets put it into persepctive no other class has as many heals, holds, damage mitigation and dps capability. NONE!! they are OP for PVP. If a shadow/assassin can't go invis with the ball then an op should not be able to roll with it. Roll should be like force sprint its on a cooldown and does not allow huge gaps to be covered. This is the dumbest thing I've seen in a while. Guardians leap with the ball. sorcerer force speed with the ball and sins. Hold the line hydralics.....why should operatives lose their advantage? sighs. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Saikochoro Posted July 31, 2015 Share Posted July 31, 2015 (edited) That's not exactly true... Firstly, the ratings in solo-q show how well people q-sync and use team-speak. Speaking for sorcs as I have the most experience with they have taken several deserved nerfs since 3.0 and it's only the recent buff of dark heal due to corruption changes that has given them some (over)strength back. Overall, I think they are very close to the par line as far as solo-q balance is concerned and the solution is not to nerf them further (except from dark heal) but bring up merc and snipers up. And that is a tough thing to do cause especially snipers are one of the best classes for group ranked. In fact I think that pts, sins, sorcs, opers, jugs, maras (in no particular order) are pretty close to each other in terms of solo-q balance; with only mercs and snipers missing something to bring them up there also. Some of the sorc nerfs were stupid though...coming from someone who usually argues against them. Maybe the single target nerfs of lightning were needed in pve...I dont know, but they weren't really an issue in pvp as far as single target burst went. I think that ops are perfectly fine as is, but if roll needs to change perhaps just take make it mitigate only damage and not cc. But maybe that was their answer to the roll bug...so it could defeat the purpose....even though the bug still happens sometimes. As far as class viability....In my opinion one of the bigger factors of what makes a class powerful is actually class stacking. If there is a comp of sorc, sin, mara, pt against a comp of op, pt, sin, jugg I think it would be more of a toss up. But as soon as it is something like 3 sins and a pt against op, sorc, sin, pt then it is often the team that has stacked classes that wins....at least in my experience. Some classes stack very well (all of them do, but some better than others). Stacking sorcs works well because of their ability to off heal each other and still do good damage. Stacking ops with each other is the same story....with the exception of more burst and less heals. Stacking sins can be very annoying because you can't lock any of them down. Stacking veng juggs works well because you are rooted and pushed the whole time. The popularity of sorcs, sins, and pts just makes it so those classes are stacked more often than the others, which in my opinion exacerbates the problem. Sorcs, pts, and sins might actually not seem so powerful if they were the only one on the arena team, but as soon as you get multiples of them it makes it a nightmare. IMO for most classes if you have two of them it is not a 1+1=2 it is more like 1+1 = 2.5 or even 3 sometimes. Edited July 31, 2015 by Saikochoro Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tbaum Posted July 31, 2015 Share Posted July 31, 2015 (edited) Oh good, I thought the weekly "Nerf Operatives" thread's deadline was going to be missed this week. +1 Also, you obviously dont play operative. It should be a requirement to at least know the class before posting this **** in ignorance. juggs/mar can leap with the ball Sorcs/sins can force speed Pts can hydraulic Mars can predation with the ball on top of the ability to leap. Hell, snipers can even ROLL with the ball So tell me, how would not allowing operatives to roll. Specifically concealment since the resist is what your ************ about. Contribute to class balance? Edited July 31, 2015 by tbaum Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
COOKIESNOMNOMNOM Posted July 31, 2015 Share Posted July 31, 2015 (edited) This is the dumbest thing I've seen in a while. Guardians leap with the ball. sorcerer force speed with the ball and sins. Hold the line hydralics.....why should operatives lose their advantage? sighs. Because its a internet meme to cry nerf to operatives on these forums? The class was never the highest rated nor the most tier 1 rated. Nor was it the most played class. ah **** it nerf them agian and again and again thats all they are good for.. a good scapegoat and whipping boy. Edited July 31, 2015 by COOKIESNOMNOMNOM Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Saikochoro Posted July 31, 2015 Share Posted July 31, 2015 Because its a internet meme to cry nerf to operatives on these forums? The class was never the highest rated nor the most tier 1 rated. Nor was it the most played class. ah **** it nerf them agian and again and again thats all they are good for.. a good scape goat and whipping boy. It is the best 1v1 class though....and people seem to think that warzones/arenas are nothing but dueling tournaments. So they probably lose a lot and cry citing "OPS are OP in 1v1!!!! NERF NOW!" Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
COOKIESNOMNOMNOM Posted July 31, 2015 Share Posted July 31, 2015 (edited) It is the best 1v1 class though....and people seem to think that warzones/arenas are nothing but dueling tournaments. So they probably lose a lot and cry citing "OPS are OP in 1v1!!!! NERF NOW!" Ah i forgot! this gayme is all about personal Epeen, and endless crying to get what they want. IMA CRY TOO THEN! !!! I LOST TO AN ASSASSIN!?!?! #NERF OPERATIVES & MERCENARIES Edited July 31, 2015 by COOKIESNOMNOMNOM Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
royhenderson Posted July 31, 2015 Share Posted July 31, 2015 Because its a internet meme to cry nerf to operatives on these forums? The class was never the highest rated nor the most tier 1 rated. Nor was it the most played class. ah **** it nerf them agian and again and again thats all they are good for.. a good scapegoat and whipping boy. lmao! Certainly feels that way sometimes. This class has seen the biggest amount of REMOVED abilities from the game. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Saikochoro Posted July 31, 2015 Share Posted July 31, 2015 +1 Also, you obviously dont play operative. It should be a requirement to at least know the class before posting this **** in ignorance. juggs/mar can leap with the ball Sorcs/sins can force speed Pts can hydraulic Mars can predation with the ball on top of the ability to leap. Hell, snipers can even ROLL with the ball So tell me, how would not allowing operatives to roll. Specifically concealment since the resist is what your ************ about. Contribute to class balance? Actually i think one of the best huttball specs is powertech tank. Leap, pull, oil slick, the fact that you are a tank, and super HO make for an awesome ball carrier and huttball player in general. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Racter Posted August 1, 2015 Share Posted August 1, 2015 Ah i forgot! this gayme is all about personal Epeen, and endless crying to get what they want. IMA CRY TOO THEN! !!! I LOST TO AN ASSASSIN!?!?! #NERF OPERATIVES & MERCENARIES This is really what it's about. People want their free kill back. They don't think fists, shotguns or knives should be in the same universe as their light saber wielding gods:rolleyes: They don't realize the roll is our only gap closer and basically our only DCD. Inquisitors probably parry/deflect more damage in a single warzone passively than we can avoid with evasion and shield probe combined, and that is completely ignoring ridiculous Sin DCDs + Sorc healing and barrier. Complaining about our heals, especially Concealments, are just icing on the cake. Yeah bro, those 2.3k ticks in min/maxed augmented DR with relics up are totally amazing. They can out heal a sorc saber striking us plz nerf? A single filler attack from any spec does more damage than our hots heal per tick, many of them do more damage than our regular hots + revitalizers (if specced, including the DR from it and ignoring the obvious downsides of using an offensive cd defensively) rolling at the same time. Total joke, l2p. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Saikochoro Posted August 1, 2015 Share Posted August 1, 2015 This is really what it's about. People want their free kill back. They don't think fists, shotguns or knives should be in the same universe as their light saber wielding gods:rolleyes: They don't realize the roll is our only gap closer and basically our only DCD. Inquisitors probably parry/deflect more damage in a single warzone passively than we can avoid with evasion and shield probe combined, and that is completely ignoring ridiculous Sin DCDs + Sorc healing and barrier. Complaining about our heals, especially Concealments, are just icing on the cake. Yeah bro, those 2.3k ticks in min/maxed augmented DR with relics up are totally amazing. They can out heal a sorc saber striking us plz nerf? A single filler attack from any spec does more damage than our hots heal per tick, many of them do more damage than our regular hots + revitalizers (if specced, including the DR from it and ignoring the obvious downsides of using an offensive cd defensively) rolling at the same time. Total joke, l2p. To be fair my probes under with min/maxed dark reaver + double relic proc crit for 2.8k Too bad before the probe nerf my normal crits were 2.7K Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
foxmob Posted August 1, 2015 Share Posted August 1, 2015 I think that ops are perfectly fine as is, but if roll needs to change perhaps just take make it mitigate only damage and not cc. But maybe that was their answer to the roll bug...so it could defeat the purpose....even though the bug still happens sometimes.. just started leveling my scrapper (58). it seems that the dodge immunity lasts noticeably longer than the actual roll. I'm not sure if that's an animation thing or what. also...wow. the actual dps buttons on scrapper are fewer than PTs. they merged flechette into backblast, got rid of the stealth opener (as a unique abil). there are a lot of buffs and dcds to juggle (kinda feels like a mara or sin in that regard). but I'm floored by how simple they've made this spec. do you ever use vital shot or quick shot anymore? (in roto) no sab but there's blood boiler. iunno. this feels like the 4m version of tracer spam with more buffs/dcds to monitor. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hirchart Posted August 1, 2015 Share Posted August 1, 2015 (edited) Funny, anytime I play against anyone in your guild that plays the classes / specs I play they get demolished because they can't rely on their fotm nonsense. And considering your ( and other players on your guild ) fixiation on me, and your inability to not be a troll, you wonder why everyone hates your guild. I have played along side you guys on imp side, and the amount of vile nonsense you guys talk, it isn't a surprise that everyone hates your guys. Some of your guilds players are so rude / toxic, I honestly think they need psychological help. Edit : And if you think I am that bad, you may want to talk to your guild about the quality of their players, considering how bad they did against me 1 v 1 last 3 matches . Our guild represents the usual distribution among classes like SWTOR in general. As imperial guild, the Sith classes are highly represented. The majority consists of assassins and sorcs, the amount of juggernauts and marauders are also high. Operatives are about the same number as the jug/mara amount, powertechs slightly less. Mercs and snipers last - no surprises there. I understand it's frustrated because you get annihilated on almost a daily basis by people from our guild, but your obsession with us is kinda worrying. I've just scrolled through your post history and approx. 10% of your posts on here are about us. Please Laced, stop being so obsessed, it's getting scary buddy. Also, if you can ever provide me a screenshot of you killing one of our players 1v1, I'll make sure they get removed from the guild. Deal? Edited August 1, 2015 by Hirchart Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
QuiveringPotato Posted August 1, 2015 Share Posted August 1, 2015 *snip* do you ever use vital shot or quick shot anymore? (in roto) no sab but there's blood boiler. iunno. this feels like the 4m version of tracer spam with more buffs/dcds to monitor. It depends on who you're fighting. Usually, acid blade is enough to get the job done, but if it's a particularly robust target (excluding DPS juggs cause of lol h2f), you wanna put the DoT on them just so you get that extra damage going and you can get off more lacerations. If it's a sin, it's usually not smart to put it on them unless they shroud beforehand, and even then, with most sins picking up shroud on vanish, still sort of a waste of a GCD. And yeah, the spec has been simplified, but tbh Concealment's rotation was never "hard", it was mainly the playstyle/reacting to other people that made the class challenging. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DeltaaXx Posted August 1, 2015 Share Posted August 1, 2015 Nah Im good. It is not a whine either. It is just addressing what I feel is a broken power. I get you probably are unable to play with anything that is not FOTM. Hey that's on you. If it were up to me I would rather buff the powers I listed to make it something of a comparable. Hell if I had my way I would give Mara/Sents a huge buff to make them scary like the were prenerf bats instead of sabers. The devs love Ops and see to it they are going to be unstoppable. Woah woah woah woah woah woah... WOAH... Operative is a FOTM? Kek. Nevermind that assassin can get a buff to their deflection that makes them immune to literally everything that stops them, and has a buff to force speed that breaks all roots and snares. But the operative. Now THAT'S a FOTM. They are so OP. I take it you have zero ideas what roots and snares are? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
QuiveringPotato Posted August 1, 2015 Share Posted August 1, 2015 (edited) The class is much much easier than people lead on. "It takes tons of skill" , please. It isn't as ridiculous as AP PT, but it is right up there with it and sins. The fact that I VERY rarely see another operative or scoundrel I need to even be remotely afraid of kind of means that it takes at least a decent amount of skill to play well. Meanwhile, just about every nobody PT, sorc, sin, and jugg can give me a beating if I'm not careful and using my defensive abilities properly. When most operatives/scoundrels are bad, it should be quite obvious that the class isn't super easy. Of course, it's not as hard as it used to be, and about at the same level as a marauder, but still, much more difficult than the big 3 classes at the moment and some of the lower tier ones. Edited August 1, 2015 by QuiveringPotato Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wadecounty Posted August 1, 2015 Share Posted August 1, 2015 (edited) The fact that I VERY rarely see another operative or scoundrel I need to even be remotely afraid of kind of means that it takes at least a decent amount of skill to play well. Meanwhile, just about every nobody PT, sorc, sin, and jugg can give me a beating if I'm not careful and using my defensive abilities properly. When most operatives/scoundrels are bad, it should be quite obvious that the class isn't super easy. Of course, it's not as hard as it used to be, and about at the same level as a marauder, but still, much more difficult than the big 3 classes at the moment and some of the lower tier ones. Well, you have to keep in mind the agent and smuggler classes have always been the least represented in this game in terms of population, regardless of how powerful either class may have been at any period of the game (including when operatives were clearly the best healers, and 4 snipers was clearly the best DPS comp for PvE). So that is always going to impact how they're perceived, there is just less of them, period. People want to be Jedi/Sith, they want to be Troopers and Bounty Hunters, they just don't want to be Smugglers and Agents for some reason. From someone who has played all 8 AC's extensively and all specs of those AC's, I'd say Concealment is fairly easy. It has a relatively low skill floor, but also a high skill ceiling in that the best ones can separate themselves from the pack. But its not hard at all to pick up now. When I play it, I feel like I have a pretty wide room for error in terms of how I play, like I can mess up and still do good damage or stay alive. Lethality is a lot more demanding imo of the 2 DPS specs, in that the player has to do a lot more to play optimally. Edited August 1, 2015 by wadecounty Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Technohic Posted August 1, 2015 Share Posted August 1, 2015 just started leveling my scrapper (58). it seems that the dodge immunity lasts noticeably longer than the actual roll. I'm not sure if that's an animation thing or what. also...wow. the actual dps buttons on scrapper are fewer than PTs. they merged flechette into backblast, got rid of the stealth opener (as a unique abil). there are a lot of buffs and dcds to juggle (kinda feels like a mara or sin in that regard). but I'm floored by how simple they've made this spec. do you ever use vital shot or quick shot anymore? (in roto) no sab but there's blood boiler. iunno. this feels like the 4m version of tracer spam with more buffs/dcds to monitor. Yeah man. Its great IMO. People were talking about it being hard and I was thinking of pre 3.0 but was surprised when I got on it. The abilities have been cleaned up a lot and makes for a fun class to play where you focus on situational awareness more than CDs unlike the proc heavy deception sins. No doubt in my mind that the roll immunity aspect will need tuned down but in the mean time, it's a great class to irritate the FOTMers with. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
QuiveringPotato Posted August 1, 2015 Share Posted August 1, 2015 Well, you have to keep in mind the agent and smuggler classes have always been the least represented in this game in terms of population, regardless of how powerful either class may have been at any period of the game (including when operatives were clearly the best healers, and 4 snipers was clearly the best DPS comp for PvE). So that is always going to impact how they're perceived, there is just less of them, period. People want to be Jedi/Sith, they want to be Troopers and Bounty Hunters, they just don't want to be Smugglers and Agents for some reason. From someone who has played all 8 AC's extensively and all specs of those AC's, I'd say Concealment is fairly easy. It has a relatively low skill floor, but also a high skill ceiling in that the best ones can separate themselves from the pack. But its not hard at all to pick up now. When I play it, I feel like I have a pretty wide room for error in terms of how I play, like I can mess up and still do good damage or stay alive. Lethality is a lot more demanding imo of the 2 DPS specs, in that the player has to do a lot more to play optimally. That's true, there just aren't as many DPS operatives. See a ton of op/scoundrel healers, though, especially on pubside on my server. And yeah, I wasn't saying it's nigh impossible or anything, but.. c'mon. You can't compare op to a PT, like the guy I quoted, lol. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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