The Operative roll!!!

[xX-Archangel-Xx]

How much dmg immunites classes have?

Jugg: 3s (5s with utility) every 60s, but vulnerable to melee white dmg (5%/8,3% uptime)

Mara: 4s (6s with utility) every 180s (150s with utility), but only 99% dmg red, still killable at low health (2,22%/4% uptime)

Sorc: 10s every 180s (150s with utility) (5,55%/6,66% uptime)

Sin: 3s (5s with utility) every 60s , but vulnerable to white dmg; with stealth utility up to 2s every 90s (5%/8,3% uptime; +additional 2.22% uptime, meaning 7,22%/10,5% uptime)

PT: none

Merc: 6 stack immunity for 1 discipline every 45s, vulnerable to white dmg

Sniper: 3s every 60s, but vulnerable to yellow dmg (5% uptime)

 

Op: 3s every 60s (~40s with utility and getting attacked), but vulnerable yellow dmg; with stealth utility up to 2s every 90s (5%/7,5% uptime+additional 2,22% uptime, meaning 7,22%/9,72% uptime)

+concealment: 3s every 13s, NOT VULNERABLE TO ANYTHING (23% uptime!!!!, combined with evasion: up to 30%/32,5% uptime!!!!)

 

 

Every class (who has any kind of immunity) have much smaller uptime, and NEITHER of them are INVINCIBLE (except sorc, but they are sitting in 1 place and cant do anything, conceal can spend some of the immunity freely acting) all are vulnerable to at least 1 form of dmg. Dont get started with roots and stuns and rolling breaking rotation or any other crap, concealment roll is broken!

 

"op is fine gnegnegne l2p gnegnegen"

with love, swtor player

[Scrilian]

Indeed uptime could me a little lower

[Technohic]

People keep going back to if it is a powerful ability or not rather than the full picture, which is "Are operatives over-performing?" And the answer to that is no. They are the upper middle of the road classes.

 

EDIT: Classes should be allowed to have cool things IE something that is uniquely more powerful than other classes have. You can't have that if we look at things isolated in a bubble without seeing how the class performs overall.

Edited July 16, 2015 by Technohic

[mmmbuddah]

How much dmg immunites classes have?

Jugg: 3s (5s with utility) every 60s, but vulnerable to melee white dmg (5%/8,3% uptime)

Mara: 4s (6s with utility) every 180s (150s with utility), but only 99% dmg red, still killable at low health (2,22%/4% uptime)

Sorc: 10s every 180s (150s with utility) (5,55%/6,66% uptime)

Sin: 3s (5s with utility) every 60s , but vulnerable to white dmg; with stealth utility up to 2s every 90s (5%/8,3% uptime; +additional 2.22% uptime, meaning 7,22%/10,5% uptime)

PT: none

Merc: 6 stack immunity for 1 discipline every 45s, vulnerable to white dmg

Sniper: 3s every 60s, but vulnerable to yellow dmg (5% uptime)

 

Op: 3s every 60s (~40s with utility and getting attacked), but vulnerable yellow dmg; with stealth utility up to 2s every 90s (5%/7,5% uptime+additional 2,22% uptime, meaning 7,22%/9,72% uptime)

+concealment: 3s every 13s, NOT VULNERABLE TO ANYTHING (23% uptime!!!!, combined with evasion: up to 30%/32,5% uptime!!!!)

 

 

Every class (who has any kind of immunity) have much smaller uptime, and NEITHER of them are INVINCIBLE (except sorc, but they are sitting in 1 place and cant do anything, conceal can spend some of the immunity freely acting) all are vulnerable to at least 1 form of dmg. Dont get started with roots and stuns and rolling breaking rotation or any other crap, concealment roll is broken!

 

Thank you for pointing out what I was too lazy to type. I wonder, would people be ok with other classes having that much invincibility up time? I really don't think so.

[QuiveringPotato]

How much dmg immunites classes have?

Jugg: 3s (5s with utility) every 60s, but vulnerable to melee white dmg (5%/8,3% uptime)

Mara: 4s (6s with utility) every 180s (150s with utility), but only 99% dmg red, still killable at low health (2,22%/4% uptime)

Sorc: 10s every 180s (150s with utility) (5,55%/6,66% uptime)

Sin: 3s (5s with utility) every 60s , but vulnerable to white dmg; with stealth utility up to 2s every 90s (5%/8,3% uptime; +additional 2.22% uptime, meaning 7,22%/10,5% uptime)

PT: none

Merc: 6 stack immunity for 1 discipline every 45s, vulnerable to white dmg

Sniper: 3s every 60s, but vulnerable to yellow dmg (5% uptime)

 

Op: 3s every 60s (~40s with utility and getting attacked), but vulnerable yellow dmg; with stealth utility up to 2s every 90s (5%/7,5% uptime+additional 2,22% uptime, meaning 7,22%/9,72% uptime)

+concealment: 3s every 13s, NOT VULNERABLE TO ANYTHING (23% uptime!!!!, combined with evasion: up to 30%/32,5% uptime!!!!)

 

 

Every class (who has any kind of immunity) have much smaller uptime, and NEITHER of them are INVINCIBLE (except sorc, but they are sitting in 1 place and cant do anything, conceal can spend some of the immunity freely acting) all are vulnerable to at least 1 form of dmg. Dont get started with roots and stuns and rolling breaking rotation or any other crap, concealment roll is broken!

 

1. Evasion doesn't provide immunity to anything except for white damage. Which is... exactly 1 mezz, and 1 root (low slash and leg shot), and a handful of meh attacks (except for Ambush, I guess).

 

2. While an operative is rolling, they can't do anything other than benefit from a 1-2k heal tick from his kolto probes. It is a purely defensive/escape ability.

 

Really, in 1v1 situations, yes, it's very strong. In delaying a node cap, I guess, if your team can't root. In arenas and objectives warzones? FFS, just target someone else. I'd be more worried about the PT globaling you than the op that's rolling around and healing himself constantly.

[jauvtus]

1. Evasion doesn't provide immunity to anything except for white damage. Which is... exactly 1 mezz, and 1 root (low slash and leg shot), and a handful of meh attacks (except for Ambush, I guess).

 

2. While an operative is rolling, they can't do anything other than benefit from a 1-2k heal tick from his kolto probes. It is a purely defensive/escape ability.

 

Really, in 1v1 situations, yes, it's very strong. In delaying a node cap, I guess, if your team can't root. In arenas and objectives warzones? FFS, just target someone else. I'd be more worried about the PT globaling you than the op that's rolling around and healing himself constantly.

 

Pls read op part again, clearly you only saw the 23% uptime number, not the other things i wrote

[tomius]

In arenas and objectives warzones? FFS, just target someone else. I'd be more worried about the PT globaling you than the op that's rolling around and healing himself constantly.

 

Gotta be the lamest excuse ever. "Just target someone else".

 

In ranked, fair enough to an extent. But objective based PvP?

 

Huttball. Operative grabs ball and trollrolls to the line, I'm just suppose to target someone else whilst this player just gets to the line, taking no dmg (even from traps) being completely immune to any kind of control? but hey, that powertech over there sure looks juicy!

 

Voidstar, your team has killed all but 1-2 of the team, rest are in in spawn. There is 1-2 operatives trollrolling aorund, interrupting, or maybe just one whilst a group of your teammates is bursting down that last sorc and another caps. Hey, i'll just target someone else whilst that operative interrupts that guy and completely stalls our entire team.

 

Novare coast, 3 operatives at at mid against your team, interrupting any attempt to cap the node and avoiding all damage, whilst the rest of the enemy team is rushing your off-node. Hey, I'll just target someone else!

 

Civil war, a single operative is stopping two of your guys capping the side turret, there is currently a stalemate at mid, the enemy have already got theirs. But hey, I'll just target someone else whilst they trollroll around, healing up and stopping us advancing in the warzone.

 

Do I even need to go into AHG?

[Loomi]

Roll is not OP, so many counters included in this thread. Just end it now. Edited July 16, 2015 by Loomi

[Technohic]

Roll is not OP, so many counters included in this thread. Just end it now.

 

We have to go through every hypothetical scenario first like using it to roll through fire and yet still able to do it enough to not ket killed between fire pits and all the way to the goal line. Along with every other possible thing we can dream up but never actually see happen unless players are really terrible

[QuiveringPotato]

Gotta be the lamest excuse ever. "Just target someone else".

 

In ranked, fair enough to an extent. But objective based PvP?

 

Huttball. Operative grabs ball and trollrolls to the line, I'm just suppose to target someone else whilst this player just gets to the line, taking no dmg (even from traps) being completely immune to any kind of control? but hey, that powertech over there sure looks juicy!

 

Voidstar, your team has killed all but 1-2 of the team, rest are in in spawn. There is 1-2 operatives trollrolling aorund, interrupting, or maybe just one whilst a group of your teammates is bursting down that last sorc and another caps. Hey, i'll just target someone else whilst that operative interrupts that guy and completely stalls our entire team.

 

Novare coast, 3 operatives at at mid against your team, interrupting any attempt to cap the node and avoiding all damage, whilst the rest of the enemy team is rushing your off-node. Hey, I'll just target someone else!

 

Civil war, a single operative is stopping two of your guys capping the side turret, there is currently a stalemate at mid, the enemy have already got theirs. But hey, I'll just target someone else whilst they trollroll around, healing up and stopping us advancing in the warzone.

 

Do I even need to go into AHG?

 

..Yes, because I was totally referring to when an operative is the only threat at the moment. Even then.. guess what you do? Wait until the op has rolled twice.. then.. guess what? *gasp* You stun him, and your team kills him easily!

 

Next level tactics right there, though, so it's probably not worth it to think about.

 

Also, about the huttball thing, the roll resist doesn't protect from the traps, so you'll take 1-2 ticks from the fire, and if you're stupid enough to roll into the acid in queshball, you'll get the Hindered debuff applied to you and you won't be able to roll out of it. Additionally, if your "entire team" has an issue with stopping ONE operative from stopping caps for more than like, 20-30 seconds at the most, then most of the problem is with your team, and not the operative rolling.

Edited July 16, 2015 by QuiveringPotato

[Joesixxpack]

ITT: People complain who want to 1 v 1 operatives and mash buttons in their general direction instead of thinking.

[Iona_Var]

..Yes, because I was totally referring to when an operative is the only threat at the moment. Even then.. guess what you do? Wait until the op has rolled twice.. then.. guess what? *gasp* You stun him, and your team kills him easily!

 

Next level tactics right there, though, so it's probably not worth it to think about.

 

Also, about the huttball thing, the roll resist doesn't protect from the traps, so you'll take 1-2 ticks from the fire, and if you're stupid enough to roll into the acid in queshball, you'll get the Hindered debuff applied to you and you won't be able to roll out of it. Additionally, if your "entire team" has an issue with stopping ONE operative from stopping caps for more than like, 20-30 seconds at the most, then most of the problem is with your team, and not the operative rolling.

 

funny you say that cuz I've seen operatives roll through the acid on queshball and not get stuck in it. Note that I'm not saying nerf operatives into the ground like some are, but their roll is a little obnoxious at times, just like our 12s cc immunity is(which I hope they get rid of in 4.0).

Edited July 16, 2015 by Iona_Var

[QuiveringPotato]

funny you say that cuz I've seen operatives roll through the acid on queshball and not get stuck in it. Note that I'm not saying nerf operatives into the ground like some are, but their roll is a little obnoxious at times, just like our 12s cc immunity is(which I hope they get rid of in 4.0).

 

You can roll THROUGH the acid in queshball if you stand at the veeeery edge of the trap, you'll still take a tick of damage, though. And it's also risky if you don't have another roll up, cause someone could just knock you right back into it.

 

If you roll INTO the ones on the lower level though, you'll get stuck in it.

Edited July 16, 2015 by QuiveringPotato

[Anishor]

I personally believe Roll needs to be adjusted because it's bad for counter play, that being said at the same time when roll is nerfed something else needs to be buffed or created.

 

The core problem is that roll addresses two problems, mobility and burst defense. Roll should remain as a mobility tools and something else with the operative's toolkit should be made for burst mitigation. Countermeasures might be a good tool for that.

[Amaste]

I personally believe Roll needs to be adjusted because it's bad for counter play, that being said at the same time when roll is nerfed something else needs to be buffed or created.

 

The core problem is that roll addresses two problems, mobility and burst defense. Roll should remain as a mobility tools and something else with the operative's toolkit should be made for burst mitigation. Countermeasures might be a good tool for that.

 

Problem being attaching that to countermeasures would have a pretty big impact on PVE, would it not? :/

[Loomi]

Problem being attaching that to countermeasures would have a pretty big impact on PVE, would it not? :/

 

How, exactly?

[QuiveringPotato]

Problem being attaching that to countermeasures would have a pretty big impact on PVE, would it not? :/

 

Yeah, and countermeasures is already the rootbreak when you take the counterstrike utility. Buffing shield probe enough to where it could absorb an amount that equates to "burst defense" would be OP, in my opinion, and evasion already kinda does that when you use it against white damage-heavy specs.

 

Personally, I could be okay with the 100% resist going away from exfiltrate in concealment, but there needs to be 100% damage reduction while rolling, if that's the case. So, you could still use it as a defensive cooldown, but you're able to be stunned/rooted during it. Being "slippery" and hard to pin down is really what makes operative different.

Edited July 16, 2015 by QuiveringPotato

[Technohic]

Yeah, and countermeasures is already the rootbreak when you take the counterstrike utility. Buffing shield probe enough to where it could absorb an amount that equates to "burst defense" would be OP, in my opinion, and evasion already kinda does that when you use it against white damage-heavy specs.

 

Personally, I could be okay with the 100% resist going away from exfiltrate in concealment, but there needs to be 100% damage reduction while rolling, if that's the case. So, you could still use it as a defensive cooldown, but you're able to be stunned/rooted during it. Being "slippery" and hard to pin down is really what makes operative different.

 

Agreed here.

[Amaste]

How, exactly?

 

Fair notice that I don't pve/raid and only have tool tips to go off of on that note, but countermeasures is a threat dump for operatives, as well as the skill used with utility point rootbreak we can get. The roll has the double use of mobility and burst defense as mentioned by Anishor (long time no see btw ) and a few others, which one would think is used for avoiding PvE mechanics as well since it's an up close in the middle of it all DPS class.

 

My thought process would be tying that burst defense to the 45 second threat dump skill may cause unintended pve issues that would be hard to work with, with BW spending significant time trying to balance the defense buff without hugely nerfing it or throwing threat management into chaos on the pve side, and if theres one thing i've learned from MMOs it's more types of things you add to a single skill the harder it gets to balance properly. But I could also be so far off base on the pve stuff I'm in the nosebleeds, but that's just the first thing that popped in my head about it. xD

[Iona_Var]

Yeah, and countermeasures is already the rootbreak when you take the counterstrike utility. Buffing shield probe enough to where it could absorb an amount that equates to "burst defense" would be OP, in my opinion, and evasion already kinda does that when you use it against white damage-heavy specs.

 

Personally, I could be okay with the 100% resist going away from exfiltrate in concealment, but there needs to be 100% damage reduction while rolling, if that's the case. So, you could still use it as a defensive cooldown, but you're able to be stunned/rooted during it. Being "slippery" and hard to pin down is really what makes operative different.

 

That would be a fair trade off I think.

[mmmbuddah]

1. Evasion doesn't provide immunity to anything except for white damage. Which is... exactly 1 mezz, and 1 root (low slash and leg shot), and a handful of meh attacks (except for Ambush, I guess).

 

2. While an operative is rolling, they can't do anything other than benefit from a 1-2k heal tick from his kolto probes. It is a purely defensive/escape ability.

 

Really, in 1v1 situations, yes, it's very strong. In delaying a node cap, I guess, if your team can't root. In arenas and objectives warzones? FFS, just target someone else. I'd be more worried about the PT globaling you than the op that's rolling around and healing himself constantly.

 

Clearly you have never faced a group of 3 operatives troll rolling around a point at one time preventing a cap.

[Technohic]

Clearly you have never faced a group of 3 operatives troll rolling around a point at one time preventing a cap.

 

3 Operatives? Roll may not even be needed to just stop a cap. How long would be reasonable with 3 of any players? Surely even with the roll, and say they have 3 seconds of immunity out of 10, 7 seconds can be enough to nuke one down as fast as any other class.

[Glower]

..Yes, because I was totally referring to when an operative is the only threat at the moment. Even then.. guess what you do? Wait until the op has rolled twice.. then.. guess what? *gasp* You stun him, and your team kills him easily!

 

No. He can be already 25-30m behind me. Go stun him! Especially in huttball.

[Technohic]

No. He can be already 25-30m behind me. Go stun him! Especially in huttball.

 

Huttball you are better off to own mid and take the ball the other way. And this applies to a lot more than just operatives carrying the ball.

[Glower]

Huttball you are better off to own mid and take the ball the other way. And this applies to a lot more than just operatives carrying the ball.

 

I know how to play in huttball, but this thread is about roll.