Buff Guardian / Juggernaut

[Azheon]

You can make anything look bad with statistics if you don't know what you're doing, for instance. Taking the top 5 on the leaderboards now and averaging those out gives you the following:

 

Sorcs 2558

Vang 2540

Sins 2182

Oper 2122

Jugs 1852

Mara 1851

Sniper 1768

Mercs 1742

 

Oh look, jugs are now 5th.

 

Do I put any value whatsoever in that small little table I've just done? No....of course I don't lol definitely not. I know I'm not good with statistics, the point is the op and yourself cannot just go on the tables you provided and say we're bottom of the leaderboards. To find out how well a particular class or spec (which we can't do due to no class breakdown) is doing requires a lot of different variables.

 

You need something a bit more substantial. If people are not choosing a class, whatever that may be, it's because something is wrong otherwise people would be playing it. Could be perhaps the class is boring but the class itself is perfectly capable, there's just too high a learning curve meaning it's too difficult for a lot of people or the class is far too weak and people don't see the point.

 

You are wrong, it is 1838 because leaderboard counts 4th jugg's rating before he changed his server, too. it is a bug. So Juggernauts are 6th according to your unlogical statistics.

Edited July 8, 2015 by Azheon

[ToMyMa]

You are wrong, it is 1838 because leaderboard counts 4th jugg's rating before he changed his server, too. it is a bug. So Juggernauts are 6th according to your unlogical statistics.

 

When done right, statistics are logical by definition.

 

And he did it right.

[mmmbuddah]

Seriously, I cannot believe people are actually calling for this. It is beyond comprehension tbh. When will it stop, when people have to deal 200 k damage to kill them? 300? Hell lets put it up to 500 and make them an ops boss while we are at it.

[SlightlySychotic]

Seriously, I cannot believe people are actually calling for this. It is beyond comprehension tbh. When will it stop, when people have to deal 200 k damage to kill them? 300? Hell lets put it up to 500 and make them an ops boss while we are at it.

 

It stops when the class doesn't lose all the damn time. That's all we're asking for. Same as Mercs and Snipers … only they don't get derided when they actually point it out.

[mmmbuddah]

It stops when the class doesn't lose all the damn time. That's all we're asking for. Same as Mercs and Snipers … only they don't get derided when they actually point it out.

 

That is because mercs and snipers cant sponge up 150 + k damage. Comparing merc and sniper to juggernaut is even more ludicrous. Your damage is more than ok, your survivability is insane, what else do you want? Should we also give you 15-18 k crits as well, making it the most outrageous class in the game? Every other class in the game would sacrifice 100 sheep to have jugg defensives.

[foxmob]

It stops when the class doesn't lose all the damn time. That's all we're asking for. Same as Mercs and Snipers … only they don't get derided when they actually point it out.

 

you'll get no sympathy from me. juggs are competitive in yolo. you show up on a merc and they'll harass you.

[SlightlySychotic]

you'll get no sympathy from me. juggs are competitive in yolo. you show up on a merc and they'll harass you.

 

And I've been harassed on my Jugg, people outright saying they were reporting me for trolling because clearly I wasn't trying hard enough. I can't move more faster than a snails' pace once the roots start flying, the top tier classes can kite me with ease, my taunt is no longer a guaranteed debuff, and pretty much any other DPS can take out two of my teammates in the same amount of time it takes me to fell one of theirs. But, hey, I have survivability; that has to be helpful at the end of the round and it's now 3 on 1, right?

[Azheon]

That is because mercs and snipers cant sponge up 150 + k damage. Comparing merc and sniper to juggernaut is even more ludicrous. Your damage is more than ok, your survivability is insane, what else do you want? Should we also give you 15-18 k crits as well, making it the most outrageous class in the game? Every other class in the game would sacrifice 100 sheep to have jugg defensives.

 

There are 19 snipers in top 100 at group ranked, snipers are on of the best classes for group ranked, but jugg is also bad for that, snipers have awesome burst and damage.

Edited July 9, 2015 by Azheon

[foxmob]

And I've been harassed on my Jugg, people outright saying they were reporting me for trolling because clearly I wasn't trying hard enough. I can't move more faster than a snails' pace once the roots start flying, the top tier classes can kite me with ease, my taunt is no longer a guaranteed debuff, and pretty much any other DPS can take out two of my teammates in the same amount of time it takes me to fell one of theirs. But, hey, I have survivability; that has to be helpful at the end of the round and it's now 3 on 1, right?

 

I don't know you, but I'm confident that hate isn't simply because you're on a jugg

[SlightlySychotic]

I don't know you, but I'm confident that hate isn't simply because you're on a jugg

 

Well, I do kinda suck at arenas … although, to be fair, I did just spend the last six months trying to figure out how to play a class that it's become abundantly clear performs poorly in arenas in most people's hands. If you mean my attitude, no, I try to coordinate with my team before a match, give out GGs at the end, and keep my opinions to myself if I feel my teammates underperformed.

[foxmob]

Well, I do kinda suck at arenas … although, to be fair, I did just spend the last six months trying to figure out how to play a class that it's become abundantly clear performs poorly in arenas in most people's hands. If you mean my attitude, no, I try to coordinate with my team before a match, give out GGs at the end, and keep my opinions to myself if I feel my teammates underperformed.

 

trying not to be mean. there are plenty of juggs in JC queue, and it's a rare exception that the jugg is the weak link. they can't carry like they have in past seasons (w/o skanking), but they are not bad in yolo. I see many more sins and sorcs bring down their teams than juggs. and those are the big fotm ACs. there aren't a lot of PTs that I see, but more than previous seasons. none are skanking that I've seen on my server. as i understand it, the way to really do dmg on the leaderboards is to skank on yer PT. basically, though, the game isn't over just because the jugg is on your team, and the entire class isn't avoiding the format because it's so difficult on them. mercs actively avoid the format. as do snipers. juggs are miles away from having to not queue. I really don't know how else to get through man. juggs are middle of the road. and it's a rarity that there aren't more than one in every pop (on my server). it's a rarity if there's a single merc in the entire queue. do you understand this? juggs are viable in yolo. not great. viable. mercs are not. there is no comparison.

[SlightlySychotic]

trying not to be mean. there are plenty of juggs in JC queue, and it's a rare exception that the jugg is the weak link. they can't carry like they have in past seasons (w/o skanking), but they are not bad in yolo. I see many more sins and sorcs bring down their teams than juggs. and those are the big fotm ACs. there aren't a lot of PTs that I see, but more than previous seasons. none are skanking that I've seen on my server. as i understand it, the way to really do dmg on the leaderboards is to skank on yer PT. basically, though, the game isn't over just because the jugg is on your team, and the entire class isn't avoiding the format because it's so difficult on them. mercs actively avoid the format. as do snipers. juggs are miles away from having to not queue. I really don't know how else to get through man. juggs are middle of the road. and it's a rarity that there aren't more than one in every pop (on my server). it's a rarity if there's a single merc in the entire queue. do you understand this? juggs are viable in yolo. not great. viable. mercs are not. there is no comparison.

 

Then why are they dead last in the average ratings with a sizeable margin above them?

 

It's a simple question. I don't care how well you think Juggs are doing; the vast majority of them aren't struggling. That's what the numbers are saying. If it were just me, I would totally cop to it -- I've made it perfectly clear that I suck at arenas and hate them even when I'm winning. But, again, the numbers say it's not just me.

[Coloneli]

Reading this thread made me sad........ mercs would have looked better if i didnt mess up my ratings

[Wheerlpool]

Reading this thread made me sad........ mercs would have looked better if i didnt mess up my ratings

 

Asana <3

[Raansu]

Juggs are hands down the most balanced class in the game. They don't need to be buffed or nerfed. The other classes need to be nerfed/buffed to be in line with how the jugg performs.

[mmmbuddah]

Juggs are hands down the most balanced class in the game. They don't need to be buffed or nerfed. The other classes need to be nerfed/buffed to be in line with how the jugg performs.

 

Well said.

[Monterone]

Then why are they dead last in the average ratings with a sizeable margin above them?

 

It's a simple question. I don't care how well you think Juggs are doing; the vast majority of them aren't struggling. That's what the numbers are saying. If it were just me, I would totally cop to it -- I've made it perfectly clear that I suck at arenas and hate them even when I'm winning. But, again, the numbers say it's not just me.

 

Maybe because it's one the easiest classes to play and many new players flock to it, and eventually try ranked after feeling like kings in regs. Then they learn it's not so easy and stop queuing, but they bring the averages down. Could be, right?

 

The good players who have always played jugg are in heaven right now. I am not hearing ANY complaints from my guildies who do ranked on juggs. Seriously, I have not heard a jugg complain for many months now and I play with quite a few of them.

[Savej]

Maybe because it's one the easiest classes to play and many new players flock to it, and eventually try ranked after feeling like kings in regs. Then they learn it's not so easy and stop queuing, but they bring the averages down. Could be, right?

 

The good players who have always played jugg are in heaven right now. I am not hearing ANY complaints from my guildies who do ranked on juggs. Seriously, I have not heard a jugg complain for many months now and I play with quite a few of them.

 

"It's the nub class"... what makes someone a newb? Picking jugg of course!

 

All those juggs with over 100 ranked wins? Nubs! That's why they havr the lowest avg rating in the >100 wins category! Lol... nubs have always, always flocked to sorcs more than juggs but look, they arent #8.

[Zoidrinali]

"It's the nub class"... what makes someone a newb? Picking jugg of course!

 

All those juggs with over 100 ranked wins? Nubs! That's why they havr the lowest avg rating in the >100 wins category! Lol... nubs have always, always flocked to sorcs more than juggs but look, they arent #8.

 

Those average stats of yours and the op's do not show the full picture of how well (good or bad) jugs are doing and never will do. Not in the way it's been shown in this thread. In all honesty I would very much like to see something from the devs that's updated every fortnight/month to say which classes/specs are over performing/under performing/balanced in their eyes. It would give discussions such as these something better to go on than what we have at the moment..

[omeru]

Buffing juggs is a complicated issue. Juggs are very powerful class but they are easiest class to counter. Their main problem is mobility and only class with no root breaker not counting stupid intercede root breaking since it is only for 1 tree and you need a teammate to be able to use it. In ranked you dont have to kill jugg root him slow him use push back dont touch him and let him suffer while rooted if he finally reaches you use your speed boost when he starts his rotaion and make him completely useless whole time.

But juggs are very powerful for regs since most of the players in regs doesnt even know their class so they have no idea how to counter a jugg. Giving juggs more mobility and damage boost will make them real monster. So any buff requires reducing survivability to make them not op.

But since a new expansion isc oming biofail will not make any more changes and even they make it they will make it with spreadsheed data not actual game facts so they will fail as always. And game will be single player game soon so why bother for pvp.

[foxmob]

Then why are they dead last in the average ratings with a sizeable margin above them?

 

It's a simple question. I don't care how well you think Juggs are doing; the vast majority of them aren't struggling. That's what the numbers are saying. If it were just me, I would totally cop to it -- I've made it perfectly clear that I suck at arenas and hate them even when I'm winning. But, again, the numbers say it's not just me.

 

are you blind? there are no mercs in the queues. there are no snipers in the queues. there are tons of juggs in the queue. do you not get it? juggs don't have to actively avoid the queue. mercs and snipers do. there are juggs on EVERY TEAM. that means every time one jugg does well, another loses. they're all over the place.

[Monterone]

Then why are they dead last in the average ratings with a sizeable margin above them?

 

It's a simple question. I don't care how well you think Juggs are doing; the vast majority of them aren't struggling. That's what the numbers are saying. If it were just me, I would totally cop to it -- I've made it perfectly clear that I suck at arenas and hate them even when I'm winning. But, again, the numbers say it's not just me.

 

Maybe because it's one the easiest classes to play and many new players flock to it, and eventually try ranked after feeling like kings in regs. Then they learn it's not so easy and stop queuing, but they bring the averages down. Could be, right?

 

The good players who have always played jugg are in heaven right now. I am not hearing ANY complaints from my guildies who do ranked on juggs. Seriously, I have not heard a jugg complain for many months now and I play with quite a few of them.

[SlightlySychotic]

Juggs are hands down the most balanced class in the game. They don't need to be buffed or nerfed. The other classes need to be nerfed/buffed to be in line with how the jugg performs.

 

You know what, I actually tend to agree with this. The problem is that a nerf Sin/Sorc/PT thread is going to go about as well as this thread here: people are going to say that it isn't necessary, that the proposed changes go to far, and if they ever do impose some nerfs those classes are going to gripe for months about how they've been "crippled" even though they've just been brought down to everyone else's level.

 

And, just to kick it off, I can tell you exactly where to start: immersion and HO. They need to cleanse or grant immunity but not both. I'm half tempted to say that Immersion needs to go back to healers exclusively and be gone period for Sins. Leave HO alone on Mercs; they don't need a survivability nerf. You make kiting significantly less trivial and and you'll bring Knights and Warriors back into the fight.

 

The alternative would be to give Juggs some way to shut down kiting. Pairing the immunity on Through Power with a cleanse would be a good start and make that utility significantly less useless. Rolling back the taunt and interrupt nerfs would help us out as well. Beyond that, make the root on ravage a default passive and replace it with a utility that makes it basically a channeled version of electronet -- for Juggs and Maras -- and make it a Heroic. (And, while we're at it, electronet for Mercs needs to be brought down to 30 seconds. No clue at all why that ability requires a 30 second cool down.)

[Savej]

Those average stats of yours and the op's do not show the full picture of how well (good or bad) jugs are doing and never will do. Not in the way it's been shown in this thread. In all honesty I would very much like to see something from the devs that's updated every fortnight/month to say which classes/specs are over performing/under performing/balanced in their eyes. It would give discussions such as these something better to go on than what we have at the moment..

 

They are showing what's happrning on the solo boards right now. On the solo boards right now juggs are the worst performing class. The solo boards are not a complete picture - we don't see spec, we don't see education levels or gaming histories or iqs or ages or shoe sizes of who picks what class. That's info we can't have. But the larger the pool of players (data points), the more those differences (other than spec) factor out. Right now we have 45000 solo rated games total, and in that total juggs are at the bottom no matter how you look at the numbers. They aren't all losing but in every single bracket they are doing worse than every other class. The numbers are on BW's boards - they are not hard to extract. If you look at those players with 0 or more wins, juggs have the lowest avg rating, if you look at those with more than 10, 20, 30, 40, 50, 60, 80 or 100 wins (looking at the top 2-3% of experienced, dedicated soloists here) juggs have the lowest average rating - even tho many/most of the most experienced juggs are winning more than they are losing.

 

It's easy to say I'm cherry picking numbers or twisting them. Those are cereal box arguments that get used anytime someone mentions stats. Stats 101 profs will pull them out in their first 50 lectures if they're any good. But I'm not cherry picking (looking just at the top 1 player in every ac and nothing else is cherry picking) I'm presenting what's on the boards - boards provided by BW. If someone at BW says I'm wrong about my numbers they are lying.

 

If the top juggs were doing really well, say , in the top 100 lists or whatever, I wouldn't say they were doing badly, maybe need a good guide or something, but that is not the case.

Edited July 9, 2015 by Savej

[xX-Archangel-Xx]

They are showing what's happrning on the solo boards right now. On the solo boards right now juggs are the worst performing class. The solo boards are not a complete picture - we don't see spec, we don't see education levels or gaming histories or iqs or ages or shoe sizes of who picks what class. That's info we can't have. But the larger the pool of players (data points), the more those differences (other than spec) factor out. Right now we have 45000 solo rated games total, and in that total juggs are at the bottom no matter how you look at the numbers. They aren't all losing but in every single bracket they are doing worse than every other class. The numbers are on BW's boards - they are not hard to extract. If you look at those players with 0 or more wins, juggs have the lowest avg rating, if you look at those with more than 10, 20, 30, 40, 50, 60, 80 or 100 wins (looking at the top 2-3% of experienced, dedicated soloists here) juggs have the lowest average rating - even tho many/most of the most experienced juggs are winning more than they are losing.

 

It's easy to say I'm cherry picking numbers or twisting them. Those are cereal box arguments that get used anytime someone mentions stats. Stats 101 profs will pull them out in their first 50 lectures if they're any good. But I'm not cherry picking (looking just at the top 1 player in every ac and nothing else is cherry picking) I'm presenting what's on the boards - boards provided by BW. If someone at BW says I'm wrong about my numbers they are lying.

 

If the top juggs were doing really well, say , in the top 100 lists or whatever, I wouldn't say they were doing badly, maybe need a good guide or something, but that is not the case.

 

 

Just stop pretend nerfs-buffs around solo ranked and all will be allright. Ranked aka arenas are swtor' uncurabnle cancer, just ppl do not understand it yet