BaineOs Posted July 8, 2015 Share Posted July 8, 2015 (edited) Dude, stop. No one here is saying that Sniper and Mercs aren't in a bad place. All we're saying is that Juggernauts are in just as a bad a place and the number show it. The difference is that when Snipers and Mercs cry for buffs people let them talk; when Juggs call out for buffs we get derided and called bads. Hell, people even claim we're top tier even though, again, we tend to come in dead last in the rating averages. It's not our fault that the snipers and mercs went home while Juggernauts keep plugging away at mediocrity. It would probably help your cause if you didn't go saying that jugs are at the bottom of the leaderboards showing "proof" of such in the form of tables which also show snipers and mercs are in the top half and assassins third from the bottom. A suggestion, as there are only 124 snipers (in the first table that was posted) why don't you remove all but the top 124 in all the other classes and then see what the averages are. I'm no statistician in any way shape or form but that to me would be a bit fairer. Statisticians would probably tell me that's not the way to go about it but all I know is....those tables are riddled with problems in the way they were presented. Edited July 8, 2015 by BaineOs Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DarthOvertone Posted July 8, 2015 Share Posted July 8, 2015 Juggs can prevent roots if they have enure up and the utility. My Guardian takes this, but he Tanks. Not sure what the impact would be for him in Vigilance. It's a huge boon for mobility though in Defense. I can't imagine playing that class without it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BaineOs Posted July 8, 2015 Share Posted July 8, 2015 The reason there are fewer is because there are fewer people picking that class. Hmm.....now why do you think that is? Do you really want to go down that route? There's a reason why you won't find many snipers. The only reason you have 12 mercs there is they are most likely healers (from what I've read recently anyway). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ToMyMa Posted July 8, 2015 Share Posted July 8, 2015 Hmm.....now why do you think that is? Do you really want to go down that route? There's a reason why you won't find many snipers. The only reason you have 12 mercs there is they are most likely healers (from what I've read recently anyway). Can confirm, the healz are realz. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Savej Posted July 8, 2015 Share Posted July 8, 2015 (edited) You mean the numbers where there are 5 Mercs and 12 Snipers compared to 35 Juggs with 100+ wins. Or did you mean the one where there are 145 Mercs and 124 Snipers compared to 523 Juggs with 10+ wins? Clearly the fact that more players are playing more games on Jugg doesn't dillute the average pool or anything. I only posted the 100+ in response to another point about averages of average players not being worth much. The reason there are fewer in the 10+ bracket is because there are fewer people picking that class. And no, ppl don't just pick a class based on how powerful they think it is. And of those that do pick merc or whatever, if they don't stick around long enough to win 10 games they really aren't worth using in a balance measurement: anyone can win 10 games eventually, anyone that doesn't isn't trying. But even when you look at everyone on the board, including the trolls and the ungeared characters and those stuck on the wrong faction/server, Juggs still have the lowest avg rating (with no filters). I've posted these numbers before and Id post more now but it's obvious that facts aren't going to sway some ppl, this is about religion for them. Edited July 8, 2015 by Savej Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jadescythe Posted July 8, 2015 Share Posted July 8, 2015 I only posted the 100+ in response to another point about averages of average players not being worth much. The reason there are fewer in the 10+ bracket is because there are fewer people picking that class. And no, ppl don't just pick a class based on how powerful they think it is. And of those that do pick merc or whatever, if they don't stick around long enough to win 10 games they really aren't worth using in a balance measurement: anyone can win 10 games eventually, anyone that doesn't isn't trying. But even when you look at everyone on the board, including the trolls and the ungeared characters and those stuck on the wrong faction/server, Juggs still have the lowest avg rating (with no filters). I've posted these numbers before and Id post more now but it's obvious that facts aren't going to sway some ppl, this is about religion for them. You can't look at all data as objective. If you look at the Sorc vs. Sage ratings, they will be different. It's not because Sorcs or Sages are better, but because the population playing those classes is different. Most players play Sorc because Pub side is dead on a majority of servers. Players aren't playing Mercs, because Mercs are weak right now. Players are playing Juggs because they are NOT weak right now. More people are playing Sins and PTs because they are even stronger right now. The top classes will be played more by both better and worse players, but there happen to be far more bad players than good players. So the more people playing a class, the more likely they are playing it for it's perceived strength and not because they enjoy it or have a deep understanding of the mechanics. Which is why we can see the average Sin is worse than the average Merc and yet Sin is still probably the strongest class in PvP right now. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BaineOs Posted July 8, 2015 Share Posted July 8, 2015 I only posted the 100+ in response to another point about averages of average players not being worth much. The reason there are fewer in the 10+ bracket is because there are fewer people picking that class. And no, ppl don't just pick a class based on how powerful they think it is. And of those that do pick merc or whatever, if they don't stick around long enough to win 10 games they really aren't worth using in a balance measurement: anyone can win 10 games eventually, anyone that doesn't isn't trying. But even when you look at everyone on the board, including the trolls and the ungeared characters and those stuck on the wrong faction/server, Juggs still have the lowest avg rating (with no filters). I've posted these numbers before and Id post more now but it's obvious that facts aren't going to sway some ppl, this is about religion for them. You can make anything look bad with statistics if you don't know what you're doing, for instance. Taking the top 5 on the leaderboards now and averaging those out gives you the following: Sorcs 2558 Vang 2540 Sins 2182 Oper 2122 Jugs 1852 Mara 1851 Sniper 1768 Mercs 1742 Oh look, jugs are now 5th. Do I put any value whatsoever in that small little table I've just done? No....of course I don't lol definitely not. I know I'm not good with statistics, the point is the op and yourself cannot just go on the tables you provided and say we're bottom of the leaderboards. To find out how well a particular class or spec (which we can't do due to no class breakdown) is doing requires a lot of different variables. You need something a bit more substantial. If people are not choosing a class, whatever that may be, it's because something is wrong otherwise people would be playing it. Could be perhaps the class is boring but the class itself is perfectly capable, there's just too high a learning curve meaning it's too difficult for a lot of people or the class is far too weak and people don't see the point. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Savej Posted July 8, 2015 Share Posted July 8, 2015 You can make anything look bad with statistics if you don't know what you're doing, for instance. Taking the top 5 on the leaderboards now and averaging those out gives you the following: Sorcs 2558 Vang 2540 Sins 2182 Oper 2122 Jugs 1852 Mara 1851 Sniper 1768 Mercs 1742 Oh look, jugs are now 5th. Do I put any value whatsoever in that small little table I've just done? No....of course I don't lol definitely not. I know I'm not good with statistics, the point is the op and yourself cannot just go on the tables you provided and say we're bottom of the leaderboards. To find out how well a particular class or spec (which we can't do due to no class breakdown) is doing requires a lot of different variables. You need something a bit more substantial. If people are not choosing a class, whatever that may be, it's because something is wrong otherwise people would be playing it. Could be perhaps the class is boring but the class itself is perfectly capable, there's just too high a learning curve meaning it's too difficult for a lot of people or the class is far too weak and people don't see the point. That's why I'm not looking at the top 5 or the top 50 or only ppl playing ranked on Begeren Colony. And that's why I don't care about group ranked (even tho juggs are at the bottom of that, too). I'm looking at everyone that plays (and focusing on -all- of those that play the most). If you do want to look at the top 40 or whatever you have to factor in the ratio of how many are playing that ac vs how many made it to the top. For example, if 200 ppl play and 170 of them are sorcs, 10 are warriors and 20 are rogues, and in the final rankings 3 of the top 10 players are warriors, 5 are sorcs and 2 are rogues, you wouldn't be accurate to say sorcs are the best. If you apply ratios to your top 5 lists you will find juggs on the bottom. Again. But thanks for pointing out that numbers can be twisted. Again, I am not saying Juggs are the worst class or need massive buffs. I am saying they have the worst overall ranked performance on the boards as of last night. And that people asking for changes deserve no ridicule, scorn, etc.. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MiaowZedong Posted July 8, 2015 Share Posted July 8, 2015 (edited) If you do want to look at the top 40 or whatever you have to factor in the ratio of how many are playing that ac vs how many made it to the top. For example, if 200 ppl play and 170 of them are sorcs, 10 are warriors and 20 are rogues, and in the final rankings 3 of the top 10 players are warriors, 5 are sorcs and 2 are rogues, you wouldn't be accurate to say sorcs are the best. If you apply ratios to your top 5 lists you will find juggs on the bottom. Again. But thanks for pointing out that numbers can be twisted. That's a simply ridiculous approach because, to be a valid statistical analysis, it takes the assumption that a) class distribution has no bias (i.e. people are randomly assigned a class) and b) class distribution is static (i.e. people must do ranked on their randomly assigned class, changing class or not doing ranked is not an option, even if their class sucks). Obviously both your implied assumptions couldn't be further from reality. If you don't assume that, you have to explain why people are still queuing on Juggs, even though they're (according to you) bad, and even though Sorcs/Sins/PT have seen increasing numbers because they are strong, and Mercs have seen decreasing numbers because they are weak. Why would Juggs be somehow immune to rerolling and giving up, even though other classes are not? Edited July 8, 2015 by MiaowZedong Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Technohic Posted July 8, 2015 Share Posted July 8, 2015 And that people asking for changes deserve no ridicule, scorn, etc.. I certainly can agree with this. Its just whay kind of change is really needed that is the question. If a certain ranged class was not so powerful right now, maybe Juggs would be in a better spot, or maybe not. Maybe if some other melee was not performing so much better, Juggs would be used more, or maybe not. ( Just trying to not draw a line and say something definitely is or isn't something here, but I think you get the idea. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alec_Fortescue Posted July 8, 2015 Share Posted July 8, 2015 This is being said by top 5 juggernaut. He knows his stuff. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jadescythe Posted July 8, 2015 Share Posted July 8, 2015 This is being said by top 5 juggernaut. He knows his stuff. A top 5 Juggernaut is at a good rating and merely being outshined by 3 classes that are overtuned atm. If you try and say Juggs are OP you're an idiot. If you try and say they need buffs, you're an idiot. I actually think they're in a pretty ideal spot as far as balance is concerned, with some classes needing to be brought down to their level and some classes needing to be brought up. If you wanna tell me Juggs are weak compared to Sins or Sorcs or PTs, I'll hop on the bandwagon. But that doesn't mean Juggs need buffs. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
foxmob Posted July 8, 2015 Share Posted July 8, 2015 Man, this crabs playing for fotm classes and think that Jugger is OP. Here is useless to say anything. We just can hope that Bioware read this. can we make an ESL pvp forum? this is getting really rough to read. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Savej Posted July 8, 2015 Share Posted July 8, 2015 That's a simply ridiculous approach because, to be a valid statistical analysis, it takes the assumption that a) class distribution has no bias (i.e. people are randomly assigned a class) and b) class distribution is static (i.e. people must do ranked on their randomly assigned class, changing class or not doing ranked is not an option, even if their class sucks). Obviously both your implied assumptions couldn't be further from reality. If you don't assume that, you have to explain why people are still queuing on Juggs, even though they're (according to you) bad, and even though Sorcs/Sins/PT have seen increasing numbers because they are strong, and Mercs have seen decreasing numbers because they are weak. Why would Juggs be somehow immune to rerolling and giving up, even though other classes are not? I'm not assuming anything. I know for a fact that players in general think Juggs are one of the best and that many of the best players have played the class whether you look at top numbers or averages - if the class was very viable many more would be playing it. Shadows were never one of the most popular classes in ranked until this season. No matter how you spin it, that supports my statement that they are underperforming in ranked. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
EAbovee Posted July 8, 2015 Share Posted July 8, 2015 LOL I don't know do you play team or solo ranked warzone as a jugg, but all juggernauts that really know juggernaut know that RAGE SPEC is not PLAYABLE. There is no one doing good as rage after 3.0, so it is pointless to talk about rage. I was playing rage before 3.0, I would like to play again, but it is worse than vengeance atm. All juggernauts who play as rage have low ratings, that's why many good juggernauts stopped playing as rage. The problem is we can't get rid of root. Sorcerers, assassins use their force speed and break the root, but we have nothing to do when we got root, it is a very big problem for us. I say this again, only juggs who are not good at the class use endure pain utility before going combat for not to get root, endure pain is much effective to use when we have low hp and it has 1 minute cooldown, using it before going a combat wastes that skill's main benefit, we can't know if we will be the focus or not and we need something to break root, endure pain & force charge are not the solution to break roots. And people are not idiot, they don't root us when we charge the enemy, they wait 4 seconds and root, lol. While I agree with you in the thought that vigi/veng is stronger than focus/rage, BW did add the root breaker on GL/intercede for the latter. Not always the most efficient root breaker but it's there. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
shavage Posted July 8, 2015 Share Posted July 8, 2015 You can make anything look bad with statistics if you don't know what you're doing, for instance. Taking the top 5 on the leaderboards now and averaging those out gives you the following: Sorcs 2558 Vang 2540 Sins 2182 Oper 2122 Jugs 1852 Mara 1851 Sniper 1768 Mercs 1742 Oh look, jugs are now 5th. Do I put any value whatsoever in that small little table I've just done? No....of course I don't lol definitely not. I know I'm not good with statistics, the point is the op and yourself cannot just go on the tables you provided and say we're bottom of the leaderboards. To find out how well a particular class or spec (which we can't do due to no class breakdown) is doing requires a lot of different variables. You need something a bit more substantial. If people are not choosing a class, whatever that may be, it's because something is wrong otherwise people would be playing it. Could be perhaps the class is boring but the class itself is perfectly capable, there's just too high a learning curve meaning it's too difficult for a lot of people or the class is far too weak and people don't see the point. I'm also looking at the top 100 players in the game on this site. flooded with sins/pt's/juggs/sorcs. i see 1 sniper and 1 mara in the top 100... idk, but this says something not even a merc in there. I checked a few days ago so it could of changed. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
shavage Posted July 8, 2015 Share Posted July 8, 2015 I'm also looking at the top 100 players in the game on this site. flooded with sins/pt's/juggs/sorcs. i see 1 sniper and 1 mara in the top 100... idk, but this says something not even a merc in there. I checked a few days ago so it could of changed. I think Jugg/Guardian are fine where they are. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BaineOs Posted July 8, 2015 Share Posted July 8, 2015 I'm not assuming anything. I know for a fact that players in general think Juggs are one of the best and that many of the best players have played the class whether you look at top numbers or averages - if the class was very viable many more would be playing it. Shadows were never one of the most popular classes in ranked until this season. No matter how you spin it, that supports my statement that they are underperforming in ranked. I'm sorry but it doesn't, there's no way you can say if the class was very viable many more would be playing it. There are already a lot more people playing it compared to other classes that's something you can't deny. How exactly do you define very viable without getting into the realm of op fotm classes? You can't, that's all a matter of perception. Is the op a good jug? No idea, are jugs underperforming? No idea, do jugs need buffs or nerfs? No idea. Is there any particular spec that is under performing or over performing? No idea. Does the fact that we don't know the breakdown of the specs they play effect any of these numbers? No idea. What you are doing is putting some numbers together and making them fit. If you had presented stuff (or the op for that matter) in a way such like Ilmarian did for operatives/scoundrels a fair few months back (I'm sure the die hard operatives or TRE players know the post I mean) then it would hold more weight. Telling people what your experiences of playing the class is one thing and perfectly fine but trying to put quick numbers together as proof without any substance doesn't do it for me. I don't play a jug (although I do have one) I only play against them but they seem to be fairly balanced to me. The issue is with op classes/specs, tone those down a bit and jugs would no doubt do better along with snipers, mercs and mara's. I'm open minded I could be convinced one way or the other on whether they need buffs but those numbers in this thread are not doing it for me. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Savej Posted July 8, 2015 Share Posted July 8, 2015 You can't look at all data as objective. If you look at the Sorc vs. Sage ratings, they will be different. It's not because Sorcs or Sages are better, but because the population playing those classes is different. Most players play Sorc because Pub side is dead on a majority of servers. Players aren't playing Mercs, because Mercs are weak right now. Players are playing Juggs because they are NOT weak right now. More people are playing Sins and PTs because they are even stronger right now... Looking just at imps and forgetting reps because the good reps almost gave up on that faction 3 weeks ago, I'm seeing the same basic pattern with Juggs at the bottom (whether you look at all imps, those that have won a few games or those that have won many many games). >10 wins Rating Wins #Players 1358 15137 346 Powertech 1305 26749 531 Sorcerer 1245 4389 96 Sniper 1245 3527 109 Mercenary 1243 11209 263 Scoundrel 1235 29341 631 Assassin 1211 12250 210 Marauder 1173 15895 384 Juggernaut In spite of powertechs doing so well in most seasons if not all, they have always been one of the least played. They're #4 or #5 when ranking the number of people trying them out for this season and that's by far their best relative turnout so far. Sorcs too, are having their best relative turnout ever. But in spite of the number of people flocking to them they are still doing well. Not so for the Juggs with all their "nubs" (what makes them so? picking jugg, of course). Commandos and gunslingers have a bad rep (as do maras but they've had more people playing them than snipers and mercs even when they were known to be the worst). Some are doing well, better than juggs, relatively, but no one's saying they're competitive other than BW, maybe. If you do /who counts like "/who gunslinger 60" you're going to get a much lower number than you are "/who guardian 60" on every server, pvp or otherwise. It's just not one of the most popular classes. The thing that seems to be confusing people is that many are saying juggs are great, there's a perception that they are and there's stupid arguments that they are, people are flocking to the class almost as much as they are sorcs and sins, but the pvp reality in this case is extremely different. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
EAbovee Posted July 8, 2015 Share Posted July 8, 2015 (edited) Not so for the Juggs with all their "nubs" (what makes them so? picking jugg, of course). ^ This particular sentiment has peeved me for a while on the forums. Not sure why folks are always buying the notion that playing a jugg competently just means you're a nub who can't handle too much. The only AC I (personally) feel has a noticeable increase in skill cap compared to a jugg is scoundrel/operative. It's not like playing any of the other classes is rocket science. Edit: Sent/Mara may be included with the scoundrel/operative, I'm not sure. This is the only AC I have yet to play. Edited July 8, 2015 by EAbovee Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Savej Posted July 8, 2015 Share Posted July 8, 2015 (edited) I'm sorry but it doesn't, there's no way you can say if the class was very viable many more would be playing it. There are already a lot more people playing it compared to other classes that's something you can't deny. How exactly do you define very viable without getting into the realm of op fotm classes? You can't, that's all a matter of perception. Is the op a good jug? No idea, are jugs underperforming? No idea, do jugs need buffs or nerfs? No idea. Is there any particular spec that is under performing or over performing? No idea. Does the fact that we don't know the breakdown of the specs they play effect any of these numbers? No idea. What you are doing is putting some numbers together and making them fit. If you had presented stuff (or the op for that matter) in a way such like Ilmarian did for operatives/scoundrels a fair few months back (I'm sure the die hard operatives or TRE players know the post I mean) then it would hold more weight. Telling people what your experiences of playing the class is one thing and perfectly fine but trying to put quick numbers together as proof without any substance doesn't do it for me. I don't play a jug (although I do have one) I only play against them but they seem to be fairly balanced to me. The issue is with op classes/specs, tone those down a bit and jugs would no doubt do better along with snipers, mercs and mara's. I'm open minded I could be convinced one way or the other on whether they need buffs but those numbers in this thread are not doing it for me. What is it you think I'm trying to prove? I've made no claims to have "proven" anything. Looking at season 5's leaderboards, my numbers are all as accurate, fair and obscurity-free as I can make them. I don't have access to more than the leaderboards, however. These boards are full of people saying what they've experienced playing with and against classes and most of their observations are wildly contradictory and are much less useful than looking at the bottom line results of 45,000 games. "I'm sorry but it doesn't, there's no way you can say if the class was very viable many more would be playing it. " - Actually I can - in seasons 2 and 3 juggs were much more successful on the leaderboards and the AC was either a solid #2 in terms of "most played" or it was a close race for #2 (they're #3 now but they aren't close to the #2 spot). Looking just at those with a bunch of wins, juggs were dominating the "most played" counts, no one else was close (1600 guardian/juggs then vs 523 now in the >10 wins spot) : people really do want to play them. Maras, too, were the second most played AC in season 1 and fourth in season 2 (at which point they started getting nerfs) - they're 5th or 6th now. Some class representations don't change too much - powertechs, mercs, snipers - they've always had relatively low turnouts no matter how well/poorly they've done (usually not too well in the case of the latter). Edited July 8, 2015 by Savej Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SlightlySychotic Posted July 8, 2015 Share Posted July 8, 2015 If you don't assume that, you have to explain why people are still queuing on Juggs, even though they're (according to you) bad, and even though Sorcs/Sins/PT have seen increasing numbers because they are strong, and Mercs have seen decreasing numbers because they are weak. Why would Juggs be somehow immune to rerolling and giving up, even though other classes are not? Simple, for the same reason this thread is full of idiots trying to argue that the numbers don't mean anything: there's this false conception that, even though Juggs are rated as low as (if not worse than) than Mercs and Snipers, they're actually top tier. I've certainly seen them listed as a good class for ranked even well after it should be clear to everyone that they just aren't on the same level as PTs, Sins, and Sorcs. They also tend to perform really well in regs (it's almost absurdly easy to post gold medals) so people naturally assume that translates over to being good in ranked. So when they don't do well, they assume that it's just a L2P issue. So they keep plugging at it thinking it's them especially when people, well, like yourself just emphasize that the only possible way that you can be underperforming is if you suck. But, at the end of the day, it's not a skill issue: it's a viability issue. The "advantages" we have arenas easily shut down, especially by the top tier classes. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jadescythe Posted July 8, 2015 Share Posted July 8, 2015 Stuff Breakdown of the highest ranking of each AC: PT - 1 Sorc - 2 Sin - 6 Op - 15 Mara - 34 Jugg - 39 Sniper - 40 Merc - 78 I think the clear outliers are PT, Sorc, Sin, and Merc. And for all the talk of averages, you should NEVER balance a class around the average player. It generally leads to super OP classes in the hands of good players. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Azheon Posted July 8, 2015 Author Share Posted July 8, 2015 (edited) I'm also looking at the top 100 players in the game on this site. flooded with sins/pt's/juggs/sorcs. i see 1 sniper and 1 mara in the top 100... idk, but this says something not even a merc in there. I checked a few days ago so it could of changed. Maybe you saw a hallucination... There are 4 juggernauts, 5 marauders, 21 assassins, 40 sorcerers, 38 powertechs, 5 mercenaries, 3 snipers, 13 operatives in the top 100 So : Top 100 Sorcerers : 40 Powertechs : 38 Assassins : 21 Operatives : 13 Marauders : 5 Mercenaries : 5 Juggernauts : 4 Snipers : 3 Even there are too much juggernauts playing solo ranked. Edited July 8, 2015 by Azheon Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SlightlySychotic Posted July 8, 2015 Share Posted July 8, 2015 Breakdown of the highest ranking of each AC: PT - 1 Sorc - 2 Sin - 6 Op - 15 Mara - 34 Jugg - 39 Sniper - 40 Merc - 78 I think the clear outliers are PT, Sorc, Sin, and Merc. And for all the talk of averages, you should NEVER balance a class around the average player. It generally leads to super OP classes in the hands of good players. So, what, snipers are fine too since they're in the same spot as Juggs and Mercs are the only class with a legitimate grievance? Again, stop. You're desperately trying to fight Savej's good statistics with whatever weird numerical quirks you're arbitrarily assigning significance to. The only figures that matter are average ratings and the margins between them; that gives the best picture of how a given class performs in comparison to other classes. Everything else is just odd phenomena. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts