PVP defenses, are we the problem or is it the current state of the game?

[Floplag]

I had this thought occur to me in another thread but i thought i would post it here to see what the Merc/Mando community thinks...

 

In regard to our defensive issues in PVP, im starting to wonder if the problem is truly out class and its skill, or if its little more than a by product of the current game meta? What i mean by this is that is it that we are really in such a bad place, or have stuns and immunities to CC simple forced us into it? If the amount of stuns and CC were reduced, would we be in as bad a place?

 

To clarify.. do we have no DCD.. of course not, we have some, they are just relatively ineffective... now, why is that the case? Are they ineffective because they don't do anything, or is it simply that other classes are not affected by them?

 

I know from my own perspective 90% of my deaths come when i am stunned and cannot defend myself or am slowed and cannot get away in any form and i am unable to do the same to them.. which suggest there is simply far too much stuns and CCs in the game.

 

In addition, when i try to stun or CC or slow some classes. they simply have too many ways to either circumvent it, or are immune to it, suggesting that immunities and such are the root cause there.

 

I guess im just wondering if that were the case and they were reduced/removed.. would we really be in such a bad place?

 

I know, its moot.. we are where we are and have to deal with it... its just a thought i had in my head.

Edited June 19, 2015 by Floplag

[Magmatic]

Pretty much Bioware's fault. we dont have a real SHTF button and no other button that would realy shine for situational use. cant warproll that hutball,cant stealth,cant put up damage immunity,cant burstdamage like others. and we are wearing heavy armor to die like a fly from.. pebbles.

[Zoom_VI]

Commandos suffer for their lack of ability to deal damage under fire. Defensively Commandos are similar to a PT, and I don't see people whining about AP PTs being underpowered. Edited July 13, 2015 by Zoom_VI

[Floplag]

Commandos suffer for their lack of ability to deal damage under fire. Defensively Commandos are similar to a PT, and I don't see people whining about AP PTs being underpowered.

 

I know that you believe this, and i know there are a lot of similarities, but i play both and i just cant agree. I can take FAR more damage on an AP PT than i can my Merc, noticeably more, and thats all while being in the mix as opposed to outside on the fringes of the battle.

 

I know the wording of much of the skill seems the same but there are other factors at play that make it a very different experience. A lot of the PT passives are things you cant really take on a merc for example. It isn't just the matter of having a skill passive or available in the tree, its how they interact.

 

Yes, neither one has an emergency button, though aoe carbonize doesnt suck for one on some levels... but still doesnt that fact that you DONT hear any AP PT complaining tell you it isnt a black and white as you think it should be?

 

No offense meant its just that i cannot compare the experience ive had to the statement and rationalize that its the same thing, i just cant .

[BarronWasteland]

I had this thought occur to me in another thread but i thought i would post it here to see what the Merc/Mando community thinks...

 

In regard to our defensive issues in PVP, im starting to wonder if the problem is truly out class and its skill, or if its little more than a by product of the current game meta? What i mean by this is that is it that we are really in such a bad place, or have stuns and immunities to CC simple forced us into it? If the amount of stuns and CC were reduced, would we be in as bad a place?

 

To clarify.. do we have no DCD.. of course not, we have some, they are just relatively ineffective... now, why is that the case? Are they ineffective because they don't do anything, or is it simply that other classes are not affected by them?

 

I know from my own perspective 90% of my deaths come when i am stunned and cannot defend myself or am slowed and cannot get away in any form and i am unable to do the same to them.. which suggest there is simply far too much stuns and CCs in the game.

 

In addition, when i try to stun or CC or slow some classes. they simply have too many ways to either circumvent it, or are immune to it, suggesting that immunities and such are the root cause there.

 

I guess im just wondering if that were the case and they were reduced/removed.. would we really be in such a bad place?

 

I know, its moot.. we are where we are and have to deal with it... its just a thought i had in my head.

 

I am with your stun and stun immunity call here. If we had better stun immunities as well it would cut my deaths down by about 75%. I can kite, run, heal ans everything else but I cannot do any of that with the shadow or scoundrel stun parade which they open up with. Out of cloak, stun, hit, hit, stun, dot, hit, dead is how most of my ranked fights go. If HO gave stun immunity I could live with everything else. Hell the OP Sin's have 12 seconds of stun immunity plus cloak plus lots of OP dots. Why can't we get a similar stun immunity?

[Cotlu-Hunlon]

As other have said, it really is weakness to stuns. We can kite forever sometimes it feels but a stun comes in and it's curtains.

 

PvP video to back me up:

The first round of this voidstar is all about making it through people who think you are an easy kill.

[CaptQuazar]

I am with your stun and stun immunity call here. If we had better stun immunities as well it would cut my deaths down by about 75%. I can kite, run, heal ans everything else but I cannot do any of that with the shadow or scoundrel stun parade which they open up with. Out of cloak, stun, hit, hit, stun, dot, hit, dead is how most of my ranked fights go. If HO gave stun immunity I could live with everything else. Hell the OP Sin's have 12 seconds of stun immunity plus cloak plus lots of OP dots. Why can't we get a similar stun immunity?

 

HO/HTL having stun immunity would be nice, but having it on a 30s cooldown (25s in case of Vanguard/PTs) would probably be OP. It would have to be more inline with how it works for Sins. For example, Advance the Line/Torque Boosters could be redesigned so that in addition to adding 4 seconds to HO/HTL it makes it so that while Reactive Shield/Energy Shield is active, HO/HTL also provides immunity to stuns. It would have to be moved to the Heroic tier, however, just like the Sins utility. Kolto Wave/Kolto jets could drop down to Masterful.

 

The only problem with a solution like this is that it makes a utility an absolute necessity to make up for the lack of a core defensive ability.

[MiaowZedong]

Commandos suffer for their lack of ability to deal damage under fire. Defensively Commandos are similar to a PT, and I don't see people whining about AP PTs being underpowered.

 

You're not entirely right. Commandos can have basically the same defences as AP PTs, but that means sacrificing even more mobility (and even if you choose the mobility over defences, they still aren't a very mobile class, relative to the rest of the meta). Also, PT Hydraulics, while not a litteral DCD, can really decrease the damage taken in PvP, while Merc Hydraulics are nowhere near as good. Also, the Merc's mezz has uses, but the PT's AoE hard stun is better if you're going to use them defensively.

 

Arsenal is truly AP's retarded inbred cousin

 

Kolto Wave/Kolto jets could drop down to Masterful.

Kolto Jets can drop down to Hell for all I care.

Edited July 19, 2015 by MiaowZedong

[TheJollyRogers]

As other have said, it really is weakness to stuns. We can kite forever sometimes it feels but a stun comes in and it's curtains.

 

PvP video to back me up:

The first round of this voidstar is all about making it through people who think you are an easy kill.

 

The mobility while retaining damage output is the primary reason why I play IO/Assault, and that video does a pretty good job showing how to use it to its strengths.

 

Curious, Helos - I notice you run with Energy Rebounder over Stabilized Armor. Do you find it better?

And what are your thoughts about the changes coming in 3.3? (Rapid Scan instead of Healing, instant cast after Mag in IO/Assault, ect.)

[Cotlu-Hunlon]

The mobility while retaining damage output is the primary reason why I play IO/Assault, and that video does a pretty good job showing how to use it to its strengths.

 

Curious, Helos - I notice you run with Energy Rebounder over Stabilized Armor. Do you find it better?

And what are your thoughts about the changes coming in 3.3? (Rapid Scan instead of Healing, instant cast after Mag in IO/Assault, ect.)

 

Yes I find it much better

Stabilised Armour sounds good on paper but the 30% Dmg reduction on AoE has never really saved my life, and Force Storm spam is now a relic of the past. Then weighing up more frequent Reactive Shield which is 25% for 12 seconds with 30% while stunned and you'll see you get much higher uptime on the shield (+ benefits of no interrupts if taking that utility). Also I'm fast on the stun-breaker so even less time spent with the Stabilised Armour.

 

About the healing, assuming it's the most recent PTS notes on dulfy then I'm happy with it The ability to spam Medical Probe instead of using the free tiny heal is much welcomed. The instant heal will give us a more hybrid flavour perhaps, a bit like Ruffian

 

I dare say it .... but I think we'll be seeing a lot more Mercs in PvP doing well and then we'll get a massive nerf bat in 3.4

"Mercenaries have been performing above their target on the metrics and have had their stun-breaker removed from the game."

[TheJollyRogers]

Good to hear it. I'll give Rebounder a shot. What other utilities are you currently running?

 

Love your videos, by the way. It's rare to see SWTOR videos with that kind of in-depth commentary.

[Cotlu-Hunlon]

Good to hear it. I'll give Rebounder a shot. What other utilities are you currently running?

 

Love your videos, by the way. It's rare to see SWTOR videos with that kind of in-depth commentary.

 

Switched over to merc terms here ^^ feels weird:

 

----------------------

 

Rocket Punch root + Jet Boost knockback increase

-30 seconds on breaker + -5 seconds on knockback (for kiting purposes)

Vent 10 heat on CC (because all the rest are worse and this one can help)

 

+4 seconds on Hydraulics

Energy Shield interruption + pushback immunity (anything to help survive focus fire)

 

Unload on the move

Energy Rebounder

 

-----------------------

 

What do you take that's any different and why?

 

Thanks Serfiri

[Zoom_VI]

Curious, Helos - I notice you run with Energy Rebounder over Stabilized Armor. Do you find it better?

And what are your thoughts about the changes coming in 3.3? (Rapid Scan instead of Healing, instant cast after Mag in IO/Assault, ect.)

 

Rebounder for 8v8 is a major improvement over Stabilized armor. The fact of the matter is that in regs you really don't take all that much damage while CC'ed, and the only times you do is usually when you are being 1v4'ed, at which point your screwed either way.

 

Stabilized armor imo is only useful for solo ranked, dueling, or team ranked against a hard switch comp. (against a pressure comp you'd want rebounder w/ 20% increased HT during reactive.)

[Zoom_VI]

+4 seconds on Hydraulics

Energy Shield interruption + pushback immunity (anything to help survive focus fire)

 

You should try taking the 20% increased healing taken during reactive shield. I've found that being able to get 16k medpacks and 11k AMPs to be of more benefit to surviving than anything else on that tier. Plus if you have a healer on you're team you almost unkillable during reactive shield. Synergizes well with Rebounder.

[TheJollyRogers]

Switched over to merc terms here ^^ feels weird:

 

----------------------

 

Rocket Punch root + Jet Boost knockback increase

-30 seconds on breaker + -5 seconds on knockback (for kiting purposes)

Vent 10 heat on CC (because all the rest are worse and this one can help)

 

+4 seconds on Hydraulics

Energy Shield interruption + pushback immunity (anything to help survive focus fire)

 

Unload on the move

Energy Rebounder

 

-----------------------

 

What do you take that's any different and why?

 

Thanks Serfiri

 

I take the same Skillfuls. I quite like the vent heat on CC. I might try testing Power Barrier once Rapid Scan becomes our main heal as it builds that.

 

For Masterfuls, I take 20%+ healing ES instead of no interruption. I've tried both extensively and my reasoning is that I tend to not freecast when I'm being heavily focused and just try breaking out. I use my Power Surge on Healing Scan more often than Concussion Missile due to the nature that the target I'm fighting is generally DoT'd. And the 20%+ extra health from heals can help in really bad situations.

 

For Heroics, cast Unload while moving and -30% less damage while stunned. I'll give Rebounder a whirl.

Edited July 19, 2015 by TheJollyRogers

[jauvtus]

PTs get passive bonus for ES and Close and Personal, I really think mercs would deserve something similar. I dont remember defensive passives from my mando (AC wide), or am i wrong?

[TheJollyRogers]

Out of curiosity, does anyone know how much that minor shield Energy Rebounder absorbs?

 

A pet peeve of mine that this game does a bunch is use very vague terms for shielding abilities. "Absorbs a low amount of damage." What's a low amount of damage in a game where people get 15k criticals?

[Zoom_VI]

Out of curiosity, does anyone know how much that minor shield Energy Rebounder absorbs?

 

A pet peeve of mine that this game does a bunch is use very vague terms for shielding abilities. "Absorbs a low amount of damage." What's a low amount of damage in a game where people get 15k criticals?

 

about 2k

[Cotlu-Hunlon]

You should try taking the 20% increased healing taken during reactive shield. I've found that being able to get 16k medpacks and 11k AMPs to be of more benefit to surviving than anything else on that tier. Plus if you have a healer on you're team you almost unkillable during reactive shield. Synergizes well with Rebounder.

 

For Masterfuls, I take 20%+ healing ES instead of no interruption. I've tried both extensively and my reasoning is that I tend to not freecast when I'm being heavily focused and just try breaking out. I use my Power Surge on Healing Scan more often than Concussion Missile due to the nature that the target I'm fighting is generally DoT'd. And the 20%+ extra health from heals can help in really bad situations.

 

Both good points and I'll switch over next time I'm on my mando.

 

Slightly wary of the fact that I only play solo 8v8 and very often can't rely on a healer so it will probably just be limited to my heals. Didn't realise it buffed the WZ-medpac though, that's awesome

[Vember]

Feels like, to me, that the defensive abilities need their cooldowns reduced. Kolto Overload should be on a 45 second cooldown, and the shield should be on a 30 second cooldown. They are both extremely subpar compared to similar abilities on other classes with much, much longer cooldowns than said abilities.

 

Also, Kolto Shot needs to be replaced with a weaker version of Kolto Shell.

Edited July 20, 2015 by Vember

[stevenisousith]

gunnerys diversion needs to be in line with assualt spec and adrenaline rush needs to be in line with vanguards with the extra 30% damage reduction while activated and then trooper will be in a good position.

 

I know from my own perspective 90% of my deaths come when i am stunned and cannot defend myself or am slowed and cannot get away in any form and i am unable to do the same to them.. which suggest there is simply far too much stuns and CCs in the game.

 

In addition, when i try to stun or CC or slow some classes. they simply have too many ways to either circumvent it, or are immune to it, suggesting that immunities and such are the root cause there.

 

I guess im just wondering if that were the case and they were reduced/removed.. would we really be in such a bad place?

 

I know, its moot.. we are where we are and have to deal with it... its just a thought i had in my head.

[stevenisousith]

gunnerys diversion needs to be in line with assualt spec and adrenaline rush needs to be in line with vanguards with the extra 30% damage reduction while activated and then trooper will be in a good position. I also find that when i am on the defencive to have a chance at beating my opponent i have to kite backwards side to side to try to get some distance and even when i use my stuns ect they still manage to get another hit or 2 in. Face it we are the worst dps choice in pvp 4v4 and i find pushback or its just the class slows us to a snails crawl sometimes after certain weapon use.

 

I know from my own perspective 90% of my deaths come when i am stunned and cannot defend myself or am slowed and cannot get away in any form and i am unable to do the same to them.. Which suggest there is simply far too much stuns and ccs in the game.

 

In addition, when i try to stun or cc or slow some classes. They simply have too many ways to either circumvent it, or are immune to it, suggesting that immunities and such are the root cause there.

 

I guess im just wondering if that were the case and they were reduced/removed.. Would we really be in such a bad place?

 

I know, its moot.. We are where we are and have to deal with it... Its just a thought i had in my head.

[Octagon]

The mmo developers fascination with roots, stuns and cc's have boggled me for years. I just never get why they think it's even necessary much less fun.

[XXcaesar]

i dont get why any class can be stunned endlessly a 6 sec CD after being stunned would solve everything .

iv played merc from day 1 .now i dont Q for Rwz for the sake of the other 3 players . i get a kick out of the heavy armor talk when most classes have some way to negate it .its sad when i pvp with a merc or a sorc .both classes that are 1 target in Rwz the sorc in light armor can hold there own . but the merc in heavy armor need to run and hope his team kills his hunters

[ForceWelder]

In 8 v 8, I learned to play "in the rear with the gear". Rush in and you are stunned killed before anybody on your team can come in and hope to assist.

 

However, be a bit slow out of the gate initially and you can let some of the other players on classes that can better handle focus charge in and you just focus in on your target.

 

It is amazing that I can then free cast for at least one full rotation before I'm on the receiving end of a flying leap from one of the opposing melee players.

 

And one opposing player on me ... plz that ain't $#%. With the all those single target utilities, that opposing player is about to enter a world of hurt if he / she doesn't get additional support.

 

Once you cleared the initial rush, it is farm the trickle team return and GG.

 

4 V 4 on the other hand ... focus, stun, and dead. All in less than 10 seconds and with little to anything you can do about it.

Edited July 28, 2015 by ForceWelder