New player solution

[iiezl]

 

If you transplanted a baby's brain into the body of LeBron James, that baby would not be any good at basketball because it would not know the rules, would not know how to be part of a team, and would not know how to shoot.

 

Learning the game (and teaching the game to those that will listen) will help new players more than any bolster system ever could.

 

Despon

 

Exactly. Thank you. You finally understand what I'm saying. The body of Lebron James would last longer playing basketball than the body of a 1-month old. Would he learn eventually? Yes. Will be ever be as good as Lebron James? That depends on his personal skill level. But, the fact remains that he would have more of an opportunity to play basketball with the opposing 7-foot giants than he would in a baby's body.

 

Also, learning the game requires time. Thank you again for understanding. More time equals more knowledge and skill. More time bought by the Bolster system.

 

It could even implement an "Anti-suicide measure" and that would also work for those who come during Conquest week. Two-fold.

[Toraak]

So, Despon, I can ask a 5th time because I'm patient.

 

Why do MMOs implement a Bolster system in PvP and in some PvE? Why do they do that? Can you, without bringing up your guide, answer me that question? If you cannot, or simply cannot read, I can attempt another way to try to communicate with you. I have Skype. I know sign language. I can even ask in German. However you want me to make it easier, I can comply. I'm done discussing this with you until you can answer me that question.

 

1st point: they may add it to make things easier, but lets all face the facts. Bolster in ground PvP doesn't do anything you still get slaughtered.

 

2nd point: Experience will always triumph over a bolstered player it is pointless in this case.

 

3rd point: Desponn is correct. What BW needs to do is add a better tutorial so new players can get used to the controls and get a better handle on how GSF works, so when you step into the matches you'll know the basics. With that being said experience will still win, but you won't be walking through the door knowing absolutely nothing about what your getting into.

[caederon]

Exactly. Thank you. You finally understand what I'm saying.

I've understood your intent from the beginning. I dispute that your bolster idea is a solution to the problem or a way to make good on your intent.

 

In reference to your earlier post...

Despon, I have taken the time to read your guide. It provides no answers for your own questions, save one.

It actually does. My questions to you were as follows:

 

1. Would a bolster system prevent new pilots from flying slowly in a straight line at a target and unleashing their furious maxxed burst lasers from 10k out?

 

A: I do in fact mention that people should learn the effective range of their weapons. It is a common thing to see new pilots pull the trigger from the moment they spawn, blasting their rapid-fires into empty space. I should specifically cite the 'don't fly slowly in a straight line' part, though, and will do so after I finish this post.

 

2. Would a bolster system direct new pilots to correctly defend a satellite when they are instead fighting out in the middle of empty space? Would a bolster system teach a new pilot the value of sticking with their team instead of freelancing wantonly with no regard to the tactical situation in a match?

 

A: These both fall under 'don't act alone.' More advanced discussion of Domination map tactics was outside the scope of what I was hoping to convey in that guide. And it's not about being a specific distance from your team, it's about knowing what your team is doing and acting in a way that supports that. What I wrote was approaching that from the most rudimentary level, so as not to overly complicate things for the pure novice. Moving towards a blob of green dots on your minimap increases your chance of surviving and contributing.

 

3. Would it teach them to lock missiles?

 

A: Ok, you got me. I didn't teach people to do what they should have learned in the tutorial. I will add a heading that recommends playing the tutorial.

 

I stick by my stance that the two things you can do -right now- to help new players is teach them the game and get them into a server that has a large pool of GSF players. They will have a better chance of playing on even teams. Consider that if both teams have an equal number of veterans and inexperienced players, the veterans are going to have to contend with each other first and foremost, which gives novices some space to breathe and get into the action.

 

Despon

[Caernos]

I'm still going to have to disagree with you on this.

 

I've tried the PvP ground game. I've talked to players about strategies and experience and other than getting a free set of recruit gear, I've never really own a single set of PvP gear on any of my characters. Even when I've been bolstered, I've still had more experience players completely wreck my character. The reason they wrecked me is that they had more experience and more skill, they knew how to use their abilities to exploit my cooldowns and take me out. The only times I ever felt like I was improving where when I asked another player for advice. Being able to take more damage didn't help me at all, it just meant the other team and players had to devote a little more time to burn me down than they normally did.

 

It's the same thing in GSF. A new player with his health and stats padded is still not going to know any of the skills needed to fight and survive. He may have more hull and shields, but he's not going to understand why his lasers didn't do any damage to that evasion scout, or why his missile hit that charge plating bomber and only did 8 damage. Being able to eat a little more damage than normal doesn't actually teach them anything about the game.

 

As for the baby in lebron james body analogy...well, having lebron's body means physically in theory he'd be able to keep up and compete with the rest of the team...but he doesn't know anything about the game or how its played. The only way he's going to learn and improve is by getting lessons from his coach or teammates. The game is far more than just physically being able to keep up with his teammates, physically being able to keep up with them doesn't mean anything if he doesn't know how to dribble, block, shoot or pass.

 

 

 

...weird analogy...

[iiezl]

I'm still going to have to disagree with you on this.

 

I've tried the PvP ground game. I've talked to players about strategies and experience and other than getting a free set of recruit gear, I've never really own a single set of PvP gear on any of my characters. Even when I've been bolstered, I've still had more experience players completely wreck my character. The reason they wrecked me is that they had more experience and more skill, they knew how to use their abilities to exploit my cooldowns and take me out. The only times I ever felt like I was improving where when I asked another player for advice. Being able to take more damage didn't help me at all, it just meant the other team and players had to devote a little more time to burn me down than they normally did.

 

It's the same thing in GSF. A new player with his health and stats padded is still not going to know any of the skills needed to fight and survive. He may have more hull and shields, but he's not going to understand why his lasers didn't do any damage to that evasion scout, or why his missile hit that charge plating bomber and only did 8 damage. Being able to eat a little more damage than normal doesn't actually teach them anything about the game.

 

As for the baby in lebron james body analogy...well, having lebron's body means physically in theory he'd be able to keep up and compete with the rest of the team...but he doesn't know anything about the game or how its played. The only way he's going to learn and improve is by getting lessons from his coach or teammates. The game is far more than just physically being able to keep up with his teammates, physically being able to keep up with them doesn't mean anything if he doesn't know how to dribble, block, shoot or pass.

 

 

 

...weird analogy...

 

Cynfor. I appreciate your further comments. But, with relation to ground PvP, I'll offer a test for you. Go into Outlaw's Den with a friend. Assuming you're both level 60 and of the opposite faction. Your goal is to run from one end of Outlaw's Den to the other. Your friend's goal will be to kill you before you reach the other end.

 

The first attempt: You wear PvE gear and your friend wears PvP gear.

The second attempt: You wear PvP gear equal to your friend's PvP gear.

The goal: Which attempt allowed you further crossing?

 

Or, to put it in even comparison terms, take a stock Rycer and have your friend choose a mastered gunship. Your goal in any GSF match, opposing teams remember, is for you to fly towards your friend. How far will you get in a stock Rycer versus a mastered Sting?

 

Yes, you will get destroyed either way. Yes, Bolster will not improve skill for players. But, the idea is for it to allow them more time to play. More opportunities to lock missiles, to guard satellites, without dying at 14800 meters from a Gunship.

 

As for Lebron James' analogy, imagine the "baby's brain" in the body of a baby. What is the result after trying to shoot through the hoop? Now, imagine the "baby's brain" in the body of Lebron James. What is the result after trying to shoot through the hoop? The point of that analogy was to show that 7-foot figure will have a much better opportunity to score rather than the baby's weak arms unable to even move the ball.

Edited June 12, 2015 by iiezl

[iiezl]

I'm not opposed to the idea but also I know it won't help. No bolster can compensate for the experience veteran pilots gained over time. Well maybe unrealistically high bolsters like 500% hp and 500% damage bonus can.

 

Why would that be such a bad thing, though? What would it matter to the Ace if he or she had to shoot a new player 5 times instead of once? Are we really worried that the newer players will start dominating the matches? For the newer player, instead of being one-shot, it means that he or she will have time to lock on that missile, gain an understanding of the reticle and target field, and even escape a spawn-killing match when he can just fly through the 4 master scouts. It would seem to allow them an almost additional 10-12 seconds of play time per encounter.

[Caernos]

Cynfor. I appreciate your further comments. But, with relation to ground PvP, I'll offer a test for you. Go into Outlaw's Den with a friend. Assuming you're both level 60 and of the opposite faction. Your goal is to run from one end of Outlaw's Den to the other. Your friend's goal will be to kill you before you reach the other end.

 

The first attempt: You wear PvE gear and your friend wears PvP gear.

The second attempt: You wear PvP gear equal to your friend's PvP gear.

The goal: Which attempt allowed you further crossing?

 

Yes, you will get destroyed either way. Yes, Bolster will not improve skill for players. But, the idea is for it to allow them more time to play. More opportunities to lock missiles, to guard satellites, without dying at 14800 meters from a Gunship.

 

Heh, been wanting to get back into ground PvP, a test like that seems as good a reason as any.

 

I understand the theory behind your argument, that by living longer a new player has better chances of learning how to fly and fight, but that's (in my opinion) over simplifying the game play. Being able to live longer in of itself, is not going to teach me anything.

 

Take the ground game example. Being able to run from point A to point B before dying hasn't taught me anything other than how far I can make it before a more experienced player can kill me. What if he stuns me? What if I try to stun him but he uses a stun break? What if I go to hit him with one of my big powerful channeling attacks but he uses an interrupt? Learning what an interrupt or a stun are and how to respond to them/use them are very important parts of ground PvP. Fortunately, I have the whole ground game of leveling experience to learn the basics before I jump into a PvP match. I will still probably get destroyed because I don't have PvP gear yet and I don't know the tips and tricks for fighting the other classes or the strategies and tactics for various maps...but I know what my abilities are and what they do.

 

Compared to the ground game, GSF would be akin to taking a brand new player to SWTOR, instaleveling them to 60 and then throwing them into a match with minimal instruction. Sure he has bolster so he'll live longer, but he has no idea what any of his abilities are or what to do with them, and he's definitely not going to understand anything that the opponent is doing. At best he'll figure out how to move and he can spend the whole match running from the opponent, trying to learn how to use his abilities.

 

Right now, in GSF, the only way for a player to get the basic knowledge of the game is by playing the tutorial, which is a shoddy system and teaches you a tiny bit of the game at best. Bolster is useful in Ground PvP where players have the basics and they need just a tiny edge to stay in the game with the more experienced and skilled players (discounting gear difference). They (now) have 60 levels to learn those basics. GSF has a five minute tutorial. Bolster would do nothing for a new GSF player.

 

This is why another popular suggestion to help new players is the creation of a "free fly zone" where pilots can go and just test and practice their abilities. Its because right now there is no place for new pilots to learn the basics.

 

New players to GSF need someway to learn the basics, and right now the only place is the tutorial which we can all agree is lousy. Until there is a place where new players can learn the basics of the game, they will continue to be easy targets for more experienced players and bolstering them would do nothing to change that.

 

(That is of course all my opinion).

 

EDIT: Also, I just saw you added another comparison so my apologies for editing. I did want to point out that comparing a mastered sting against a stock rycer is truthfully comparing two different classes from the ground game, like an operative to a sorceror. Better comparison would be in a stock rycer against an upgraded Rycer. Sadly I'll probably get the same distance. Ion will leave me frozen in space for the follow up slug. Arguably I will get further but it's not much maybe a couple hundred meters.

Edited June 12, 2015 by Caernos

[Ryuku-sama]

The answer isn't what you're thinking it is.

Bolster in PvP is a way to control what minimal stats players are starting with. It makes sure you have a MATHEMATICAL balance between same level players (about 5-7% difference between top gear and bolstered 162/156) on a perfect parse. It doesn't make one stay longer on the playing field.. It make sure you have a minimum MATHEMATICALY calculated gear level.

 

GSF components ARE NOT GEAR. THEY ARE LEVELS. Comparing components to gear is completely flawed. Changing components alters your playstyle in the same way leveling up does in ground PvP. You won't charge in as a Rage Jugg before you get Enraged Defense and Reflect nearly as deep as you will once you get them. Same goes for a Nova with QCS and Barrel Roll vs one with Disto and Power Dive. You won't burst as fast on a Scrapper Scoundrel before you get your surge bonus at level 59. Same goes for a Flashfire with mastered TT vs one with Booster Recharge.

 

EDIT : corrected a few typos.

Edited June 12, 2015 by Ryuku-sama

[RatPoison]

Bolster is to help even the stats of differing level players in the lower tiers by putting them on more even ground (stat-wise) as large level differences between players creates problems. Bolster is also around because this game features a PVP only stat (expertise) which is only obtainable in gear at max level. In a world without bolster, if two players of -equal skill- were to duel on same classes/spec, but one with expertise, and one without... then the one with expertise would obviously have a substantial advantage if the opposing player was not wearing the rating of PVE gear that bolster is supposedly set to match stat wise.

 

Bolster does not improve a player's skill. A novice in the ground game (not just PVP) will still be a novice in PVP regardless of their bolster. But unlike GSF, some form of bolster is needed in the ground game solely because the game puts toons of substantial level difference into the same PVP grouping. Without bolster, a level 10 toon would never be able to hit a level 25 player.

 

The other missing dynamic to the ground game and PVP is the level at which certain skills become accessible. This of course creates another layer of advantage for the player of a substantially higher level. Bolster does not address this, and this fact is currently a great source of grief in the mid-level bracket that has level 30 toons facing off against level 59 toons.

 

...

 

None of this matters though as GSF is not the ground game, and GSF doesn't have levels. Every basic skill a ship can have can be acquired relatively quickly. This alone creates on large difference between the two PVP formats. But that's not even the biggest or most important difference. Unlike the ground game, you play your toon for 60 levels... opting to PVP where you want to. Just playing the PVE content in the ground game provides a person with a level of intelligence in rotation, use of defensives, positioning, etc.; basically you know how to play your toon. GSF has no such thing.

 

A new pilot steps into a GSF match for their first time without any idea of the horror that can be wrought on non-evasive, separated from the group, in the open pilots. And there is no current way to prepare them for this.

 

They are literally showing up to a gun duel at high noon with their only knowledge coming off of a short tutorial where the other guy never shot at them. How do you think it's going to go? What do you think bolster is going to do for them? It's going to help them aim, or evade to say the least.

 

That's the problem with GSF and new pilots, and no amount of bolstering or handing free upgrades to folks is going to improve it.

 

The most you can hope for is that newbies are motivated enough to do some searching for information, to spend some time paying attention to what's happening, to ask questions. And the most we can do to help new players is to continue supplying information and continue being squeaky wheels that ask for better tutorials and more in-game information for GSF while searching for a way to inflate the player pool for better match making (aka cross server).

 

Bolster is in my opinion, and as it relates to GSF is pointless. No newbie will benefit from being alive a second or two longer... especially if they can't rationalize that in a flight game, you need to stay moving at angles.

 

In this game, skill trumps gear and the only time gear matters is when the skill level is equal.

Edited June 12, 2015 by RatPoison

[iiezl]

Still the same, irrelevant points being brought up. Unreal.

 

There is simply no point in further discussion on this thread. You guys are discussing what you want to discuss.

[Caernos]

Still the same, irrelevant points being brought up. Unreal.

 

There is simply no point in further discussion on this thread. You guys are discussing what you want to discuss.

 

My apologies if my last post came across as rude or insensitive in any way, my intent with all of my contributions is never to cause harm of any kind. I'm sorry to see that you also are declining to continue our debate as I found the discussion to be both civil and amusing. Finally, while I disagree with you on the belief that a bolster system would help the rooks I respect your intent to try and improve their experience so that they can learn and will continue playing the game.

 

If ever we meet on the battlefield of that onyx bird, the Ebon Hawk, then best of luck to you and may it be a sporting fight.

[Danalon]

Today I had some very one sided games. In these games I used my T1 gunship but did neither use distortion field nor the railguns. I only used lasers in melee combat (and barrel roll to escape) and I even made pauses after each shot to see what my target does.

Basically I simulated a situation where those new players had a lot more time to react as usual. Most didn't react at all. They simply continued to do whatever they were doing. For example chasing targets that weren't in their range. Only a handful attempted to escape or fight back.

 

After seeing this I need to change my earlier statement. I'm now completely opposed to the idea of bolstering new players. It wouldn't help them and it wouldn't solve the underlying problem of new players having no idea what to do. If anything it would make them feel even more outgeared - "I have 200% hitpoints and damage bolster but still don't stand a chance, the gear gap must be absurdly huge in this game."

Edited June 12, 2015 by Danalon

[CommanderKiko]

My two cents.

 

I say it often. My guilds main focus is getting new players interested in GSF. I have co-leaders who train PvP, and we have many more PvPers than we do pilots, but our primary focus remains unchanged. So I'm all for making things easier on newbies so they can learn. Be it a better (and mandatory) tutorial, or GSF based PvE. That being said, bolster is not the way to go.

 

My reasoning is simple: There is a serious difference between component levels and gear. Proof? In my first ever match, I killed a mastered gunship with a stock scout. It was my only kill that match. I had played the tutorial, and read EVERYTHING the game's tooltips told me before queueing my first match. I took the knowledge the game itself gave me, and used it. Once I got used to the controls, I immediately started getting focused by players i later found out were veterans. I have since repeated that with progressively better results on every, single, alt, I, ever, had, made, since. (Meaning that gear has absolutely nothing to do with how I, or anyone, kills people except in serious matches which newbs don't participate in anyways)

 

Upgrades matter, but skill and patience matters countless times more. Getting a ship mastered is a reward and an achivement for a reason. Bolstering will fix nothing, and if anything lead to more issues. Like, just off the top of my head, giving aces a major advantage when they make a new alt on a new server, or newbies becoming confused when suddenly their ship isn't as strong as it was once bolster wore off.

Edited June 12, 2015 by CommanderKiko

[RatPoison]

Still the same, irrelevant points being brought up. Unreal.

 

There is simply no point in further discussion on this thread. You guys are discussing what you want to discuss.

 

You stated an opinion on a discussion board. If you wanted everybody to agree with you, you're in the wrong place.

 

Nobody here is likely to disagree that there needs to be some way of helping new players get into GSF. That in and of itself has been a topic of repeated discussion. How this is done... is a matter of debate.

 

In my opinion, bolstering newbies would be ridiculously complicated to implement, easily abused by your so called "elitest"... and ultimately ineffective in helping newbies period. This issue on how to better prepare new pilots and educate them has been discussed over and over again and you know what has actually been proven to work?, information, newbies asking questions and getting answers, and similar. You can skim through the GSF forum and find threads started by frustrated new pilots who have in some cases, accepted advice and information and gone on to go through the learning curve and enjoy the game.

 

This alone is evidence enough to suggest that Bioware desperately needs to improve the tutorial for GSF, and that it desperately needs to consider providing more information on upgrades and objectives. The next and more complicated but more viable step would be to implement some form of cross server to allow the match making system a chance to do its job.

 

So if we want to change the table, explain why these suggested solutions are not better than the long shot of implementing some form of bolster that doesn't provide any actual information or technique to newbies?

Edited June 13, 2015 by RatPoison

[Ardaneb]

If you build a bolster for new players that is big enough for a new player to slow an ace down, it will create havok for everyone else, totally annihilate the entire field. 80% of players will be enraged. That is the fatal flaw in this suggestion. All of the new players will be looking for ways to get back into the buff. Aces will be forced to focus new players to neutralize them as the second biggest threat on the battlefield. Ace bombers might have to switch to scout/gunship to deal with the problem. That is the only ace adjustment I see.

 

This kind of goes on with many bomber gunship balls now. Intermediate skill players will use that formation to slow down ace scouts.* It does slow down ace scouts, but they can basically deal with it. It completely annihilates new players and they come to the forums a lot about this.

 

I agree that the starter ships could really use some buffs. I would prefer that every broken system get a buff and that all of those buffs go into the base system (component or chassis). I think it would also be reasonable to do things such as reduce the base cooldown on barrel roll and compensate in the first tier of the tree. Accuracy is where new players need the buff the most (yet another attempt to push the mega-accuracy buff to rapid fire lasers). These buffs should be permanent and translate upwards to the intermediate players as well.

 

These arguments over ground pvp analogies and over skill versus gear only obscure the horrible flaw in the proposal. Don't redefine your struggling debate. You put forward a proposal, not an analogy. This proposal is fatally flawed.**

 

 

*I fully recognize that there are ace players in gunship bomber balls executing a skilled and legitimate strategy, but not every gunship bomber ball is this well equipped.

**Verain did mention this. I want to give credit. It just appeared to me that it went unnoticed.

Edited June 13, 2015 by Ardaneb

[Ryuku-sama]

Still the same, irrelevant points being brought up. Unreal.

 

There is simply no point in further discussion on this thread. You guys are discussing what you want to discuss.

 

Amusing. I gave you an answer to your question. You still haven't answreed.

 

You, and a few others, should stop thinking about components as gear. They are skills, abilities and talents... Those same things one gains through leveling in the ground game. Those same things bolster can't and will never balance between low level and high level player.

 

EDIT : Oh and before you say something about bracket. A lvl 20 can barely put out 2000 DPS once bolstered. THe standard at 60 is 4500 for a burst spec... And over 5000 for sustained. That's a 125-150% increase. And I don't even talk about defensives and kiting measures.

In GSF, the difference between low req and max req ship is under 50% in total effectiveness. Often, way less. After about 20k in your ship, which is about 8 levels in the ground game if we say 150k (mastered) is 60. You're at less than 10% under the mastered ships in total effectiveness. You got your engine to T2, a decent shield and a few others upgrades, such as removing these god-aweful RFL...

Edited June 13, 2015 by Ryuku-sama

[Mintas]

There are a lot of new players who complain about the difficulty of their first many games. They are unskilled and have stock ships. Then, there are the elitists who state that "Skill > Gear." This is a one-sided, blind argument based on a false assumption. The issue is that there will rarely be a time in which the opposing team does not have an Ace. (For those players arguing as such, put yourself in a ground PvP and PvE situation--fresh 60s with no PvP gear versus a 60 in full 174 augmented gear or a level 60 with 172 gear going into ToS HM.)

 

Take two of the same player **insert your idea of a best player here** and put them in separate ships--one a fully upgraded Sting and the other a stock Blackbolt. Can anyone honestly tell me that, with the same skills, he would even have a chance to win with the Blackbolt? If you believe that, you're delusional and evading a key point--skill will be found on both sides.

 

GSF could have a Bolstering system. For the first 6 hours of play or so, they could have increased health, armor, evasion, and damage. After that 6 hours is up, they will earn an achievement (or something) and the buff will be removed. To help fight against those Aces who would abuse this feature by starting new accounts or characters, the buff could self-remove (per game) after so many kills in-game (say, 5 or 6). The purpose of this Bolster would be to allow newer players to actually have the TIME to survive longer than being spawn-farmed.

 

This is a solution that I feel will allow players to stay involved in GSF rather than play once and never hit that queue again.

 

Bolster will do zero to help in GSF. A fully mastered ship and a base ship mean next to nothing if the player does not know strategy, situational awareness, or what their skills do. Any decent player would wipe the floor with a new in a maxed ship even if they are in a base ship. As previously stated if you can't stay on a sat, use an angle on a gunship, and or know how to dislodge a bomber, etc. no amount of ship will compensate for it.

 

While a better tutorial would help. Bio ware is the main culprit in why there is such a discrepancy in skill sets. Over a year ignoring this aspect of the game just made good players better and new players get farmed.

 

FYI if you are going to suggest something and be able to take into account other peoples opinions, then you mind as well keep them to yourself. BTW the only a person would think bolster would help does not play GSF to know what they are talking about.

[Linuxizer]

How much of a bolster are you talking about? Is it only on health, armor, evasion and damage, or is it on every stat?

 

(a) Reduce the difference. There is little benefit. Take the hull damage of the Heavy Laser Cannon for example. It is only 13% higher on a mastered ship than on a stock ship. A bolster of 6.5% would accomplish very little.

 

(b) Eliminate the difference. In this case it is easier to just give all characters every ship, every component and every upgrade unlocked. I would be fine with that... but we may see people keep creating new characters with stupid names.

 

© Overcompensate. It is a bad idea.

[Archonitek]

I wouldn't mind giving new players a bolster and have it tied to their legacy. Even if it's just a shield/hull boost.

 

True, bolster won't directly make them better pilots, rapids will still be fired at 7k out, ruler straight lines will still be the only flight path allowed and the ship repelling forcefield around sats will be just as strong. However giving them that extra little bit of survivability to allow them to either feel like their participating or for them to realise they're under attack before getting vaped is much better than having them yell 'WHAT?!' when they go from 100% to dead without warning, throwing their hands up in disgust and leaving forever.

 

The first few matches for new players are what they use to judge how much fun they can potentially have in gsf. Once they reach the consensus 'yes, this is something I can have fun with' THEN they start going through guides, youtube videos, streams and whatnot to improve their game. The purpose of the bolster is to give them that time to realise the game's potential and maybe get in a bit of actual practice before getting slugged at 15k.

 

Edit: I also think it's a bit weak of the op to go off in a huff when nobody agreed with him. He needed to expand on his idea on what benefits having a bolster will give to new pilots rather than just throwing it out there, get in some weird basketball analogy debate which isn't even terribly relevant and then leave.

Edited June 14, 2015 by Archonitek

[Ramalina]

So, someone with level 60 Bolster in Huttball can still have no clue how to pick up or pass the ball. That is irrelevant. I suppose I can ask you the same question that I've been repeatedly asking throughout this argument--Why do MMOs implement a Bolster system for PvP and some PvE?

 

Simple, because their designers designed with design goals that conflict so badly that a Band-Aid fix was needed to prevent part of the play experience from becoming unworkable for a significant portion of their paying customers.

 

Usually this is a matter of time investment and revenue.

 

"Hardcore," players invest a lot of time in game, and typically are willing to pay full price, in advance, for long subscription periods. They also tend to do a lot in the way of word of mouth advertising in, "the gaming community." The problem is they tend to run through content with low intrinsic replay value very quickly, so game designers create gear and prestige reward treadmills to keep these players playing.

 

"Casual," players on the other hand, have limited playtime, are less loyal customers when it comes to paying for the content, but occur in vastly larger numbers. They also want to play without a huge competitive disadvantage and to feel like they get to see most content in some form, but they don't have time to spend on the gear treadmill in a way that gets anywhere close to the rewards a more, "hardcore," gamer gets.

 

If the gear treadmill rewards gear that has a large impact on in game performance then you're making an important part of your customer base unhappy, but if there isn't a gear treadmill you risk another important part of your customer base getting bored and leaving. So they use bolster mechanics as a compromise method of keeping both groups merely slightly disgruntled.

 

Of course, they could try making game content with at least as much replay value as say, Tetris, but that's surprisingly difficult to do compared to gear treadmills.

 

GSF doesn't merit a bolster because:

The population is too small.

For all practical intents GSF doesn't have a gear treadmill.

What gear there is in GSF has a fairly small effect on gameplay.

 

A tutorial that's not embarrassingly useless might be nice, but the official line from Bioware is that they're pretty sure that failing miserably and getting farmed hard because a new player has no clue what's going on doesn't significantly affect participation rates. Unless you can change their minds on that, both bolster and a half-assed tutorial are non-starters (the current tutorial is about one-sixteenth-assed).

[Verain]

That's exactly my point. It will help. Again, why do MMOs implement Bolster systems in PvP?

 

Because they failed at balancing their tiers, or they don't have enough players to matchmake properly.

 

That's the only reason.

 

The better question is, what do MMOs that don't implement bolster do correctly?

 

 

WoW is interesting because last expansion, a patch suddenly limited the item level of pve items in pvp- a "reverse bolster". This is because their pve model involved four tiers per patch set, creating a pretty big gulf, and handing out massive burst to pve players. I'm pretty sure this system is still in effect in the exact same way.

 

Their solution was to take this unbalanced pve stuff out of instanced pvp completely- but this definitely had some complaints, the best phrased ones which were essentially "why can't you offer us balanced gear, instead of just giving up?"

 

 

Bolster can have some place in MMOs. SWTOR has massive gear and power differences between levels in the ground game, and between item levels at the top tier of the ground game, and this helps minimize that.

 

 

GSF doesn't suffer from these flaws. A stock ship is much closer to a mastered ship than anything in the ground game is to anything else. GSF is designed to have a certain amount of delta between mastered and base components, and that difference being small is why it will never need bolster.

 

But it will never HAVE bolster for another reason- the entire reason gear and power is different across levels in the ground game (and in WoW) is to offer a real and substantial boost in power for leveling.

 

GSF doesn't have this kind of thing, or anything like it. If a stock ship had 200 health and a mastered ship had 20000, then you obviously that would have been because the stock ships would be fighting weak NPC ships most of the time, and the mastered ships would be fighting strong NPC ships most of the time. Then bolster might make sense.

 

 

 

If the devs come in and decide that the gear gap between fresh ships and reqqed ships is too much, they'll do some mix of these:

 

1)- Increase req gains (they did this already)

2)- Shrink req required for upgrades.

3)- Start ships with some baseline req.

 

They certainly won't add "bolster". Bolster doesn't even make sense from a GSF perspective- there's no "gear" at all, just talent points.

 

 

 

 

Bolster is a non-starter in GSF. If you want req, go get req. It's not that hard.

[Verain]

the point of the Bolster would be to allow the new players to live longer.

 

They assuredly don't deserve to, is mostly the point.

 

The game offers almost instant respawns. Often it lets you respawn directly into action, or close by. Artificially buffing noob ships, such that the noobs feel weaker as soon as they learn to fly, would both be exploited terribly by the free to play system, and create a silly situation where derps run around with virtual star men for their first couple games.

 

Adding to Ardaneb's "it will create havok for everyone else":

Bad players should lose to ok players. That needs to happen, or the ok players don't get any reward for not being bad. Ok players need to lose to good players. That needs to happen, or the good players don't get any reward for not being only ok. Etc.

 

 

They can't practice too well in the tutorial.

 

We'd all like a better tutorial, and have been asking for this since long before this derp of a thread started.

Edited June 17, 2015 by Verain

[Verain]

Even when I've been bolstered, I've still had more experience players completely wreck my character.

 

The other piece here is that bolster in ground pvp takes the stat differences from massive to smallish. The GSF stat differences are already smallish. The pvp game has always been tuned such that you get upgraded power by getting better gear. The delta that the devs aim at, they get for free in GSF.

[Verain]

Why do MMOs implement a Bolster system in PvP and in some PvE?

 

Because they have a STATISTICALLY HUGE DIFFERENCE. They have that difference because they are based in an EQ style gear progression matrix, because that is how PvE works. The matrix becomes a full treadmill in WoW and the WoWlikes, with giant upgrades happening over time. Your gear "decays". You need new gear. The devs want the gear difference between a new player and an veteran to be substantial- rest assured, no bolster in the ground game erases that gap, because rewarding with gear is the biggest reward in an MMO.

 

But they do shrink that gap to something where pvp can happen.

 

 

GSF never has that difference. That giant gap doesn't exist. That tenfold or hundredfold difference between a level 1 and a max level, that extremely huge difference between a fresh max level and a fully geared max level- nothing like that exists anywhere in GSF.

 

 

That's why they do it. Because their primary focus is in pve upgrades, and they need to crush the item level down to something where pvp can occur. Older games didn't always need bolster, and few newer ones get away without it as well. How? By not making the gear gap very large.

 

Which is what GSF does.

Edited June 17, 2015 by Verain

[Verain]

Still the same, irrelevant points being brought up. Unreal.

 

There is simply no point in further discussion on this thread. You guys are discussing what you want to discuss.

 

Yes. Everyone here is saying the same things, because we understand what is going on in GSF. Your idea would not help anything, and we have told you why. When you didn't understand, everyone tried explaining it in different ways.

 

So yes, there's no point in you pushing a wrongheaded idea any further. With that, I can finally agree with something you have said.

Edited June 17, 2015 by Verain