Let's talk about Strike Fighters

[ALaggyGrunt]

The reason you don't take a strike into a close-range brawl with a gunship is: the gunship almost as maneuverable as the strike, has a turning radius tight enough to force the strike to fire its guns at full deflection, and the gunship has those magical Broken Laser Cannon which are much better in a real fight than any close-quarters strike fighter gun.

[FlavivsAetivs]

The reason you don't take a strike into a close-range brawl with a gunship is: the gunship almost as maneuverable as the strike, has a turning radius tight enough to force the strike to fire its guns at full deflection, and the gunship has those magical Broken Laser Cannon which are much better in a real fight than any close-quarters strike fighter gun.

 

Yeah but you have to get close range with a gunship to kill it. Unless they've got their computer muted and are distracted they're going to dodge your torp. Sometimes they'll wait to take the hit and try and get you with an ion or slug (and then quickly realize that it's going to take 2 ions and then 3 railguns or 1-2 slugs to kill a clarion with shields switched to front), and by that time you're in guns range and can pop wingman which will allow you to probably get the rest of their health while they're charging that second shot (or at least get them moving and if you managed your engines well you should be able to chase them and kill them with a second torp or guns).

 

That's why I use the range bonus on torp, makes them more viable since you can engage gunships earlier and outrange all other fighters.

 

Of course this also highly depends on the pilot (and how upgraded the gunship is too). Someone like Zuck, Averann, or Jure can easily wreck my Clarion in this timeframe and pattern of engagement.

 

~ Eudoxia

[Archonitek]

827 replies later...

 

still not a peep from anyone with authority ;D

Edited November 4, 2015 by Archonitek

[Kinsha]

The men in yellow saw the approaching mob and ran for their lives.

[Greezt]

Yeah but you have to get close range with a gunship to kill it. Unless they've got their computer muted and are distracted they're going to dodge your torp. Sometimes they'll wait to take the hit and try and get you with an ion or slug (and then quickly realize that it's going to take 2 ions and then 3 railguns or 1-2 slugs to kill a clarion with shields switched to front), and by that time you're in guns range and can pop wingman which will allow you to probably get the rest of their health while they're charging that second shot (or at least get them moving and if you managed your engines well you should be able to chase them and kill them with a second torp or guns).

 

That's why I use the range bonus on torp, makes them more viable since you can engage gunships earlier and outrange all other fighters.

 

Of course this also highly depends on the pilot (and how upgraded the gunship is too). Someone like Zuck, Averann, or Jure can easily wreck my Clarion in this timeframe and pattern of engagement.

 

~ Eudoxia

 

How does the range make the torp more viable? All gunships (except the T2, but seriously...) have two missile breaks. The extra 1500 meters mean nothing. The only thing you'll be doing is alerting the pilot of your presence. Anyway, two maxed ions will wipe a clarion's shields, and then two slugs kill it while it's lingering in space. Assuming you managed to close the distance, they still have barrrel roll (or retro thrusters if it's a T3), diso, and BLCs.

 

I'm not saying you can't kill a gunship with a strike, but torps rarely help there. Of the rare occasions I actually landed one on a gunship, mostly I killed them with my blasters before the torp landed...

[FlavivsAetivs]

I'm just going off of my experiences on Jedi Cov. You're right, they do have two missile breaks, and barrel roll/BLC.

 

Most gunships won't fire two ions against an SF, they'll hit with 1 ion and switch straight to slug, mainly because they expect the shields to be stripped away with that first shot. Obviously, more experienced players know better (as I mentioned earlier). You can force them to waste one of these and continue closing the distance with skilled use of power dive at the right angle to the gunship. (But once again, granted, you can still hit someone power diving.)

 

I always save my boost until I hit the 15000m range, so I can boost in and begin locking on the torp as I close in from 11500 to 5000 meters. The charge time for an ion/slug prevents them from getting off more than two shots forcing them to switch to close-range weapons or run (or die if they're not very good).

 

Then it's a matter of survivng BLC/Disto Field or that second ion/slug after they turn and run and you pursue. Which is again, a matter of wingman and engine management, respectively.

 

The extra 1500 meters is mostly against non-gunships, but if you have HK it's useful coordinating it with cooldown timing on your lock on and their missile break so you can get the third (or second, depending of course) one to hit.

 

I'm not concerned about wasting protorps because I usually survive (often by running away, lol) and can just resupply with my repair probe.

 

I'm experimenting with new tactics against gunship walls but don't wanna go into them yet (until I can prove whether or not they work). Again, Rakun will tell you my thoughts on how to fly a Strike are crazy.

 

~ Eudoxia

Edited November 4, 2015 by FlavivsAetivs

[Greezt]

I actually think that the only way to make a strike useful in its current state is to fly pretty crazy... Still, killing a gunship on a strike is hard, and I actually find the star guard with ions and quads best suited for that.

 

I don't know about how you fly over at Jedi cov, but I (and other pilots over here) tend to double ion everything. It makes the slugs so much easier to land when your target is out of engine power to run... I personally also have the snare on my quarrel, so it slows down advancing enemies.

[FlavivsAetivs]

The good gunship pilots will double ion, but that's not every gunship pilot. The other veterans will eventually learn though.

 

And then I'll be ****ed. Lol.

 

~ Eudoxia

Edited November 4, 2015 by FlavivsAetivs

[JasonSzeremi]

How does the range make the torp more viable? All gunships (except the T2, but seriously...) have two missile breaks. The extra 1500 meters mean nothing. The only thing you'll be doing is alerting the pilot of your presence. Anyway, two maxed ions will wipe a clarion's shields, and then two slugs kill it while it's lingering in space. Assuming you managed to close the distance, they still have barrrel roll (or retro thrusters if it's a T3), diso, and BLCs.

 

I'm not saying you can't kill a gunship with a strike, but torps rarely help there. Of the rare occasions I actually landed one on a gunship, mostly I killed them with my blasters before the torp landed...

 

if you can make a gunship use an engine break, your torp has served it's purpose. if there are enough strikes with torps targeting gunships to make them move, then the gunships cannot dominate the match because they aren't shooting. A range of 15k on torps might confuse the gunship about which missile to use a missile break on... the torp's lock masks any other missile lock-ons... so you might be timing for a torp and be hit from behind by clusters/concs.... another torp fired closer

[Greezt]

if you can make a gunship use an engine break, your torp has served it's purpose. if there are enough strikes with torps targeting gunships to make them move, then the gunships cannot dominate the match because they aren't shooting. A range of 15k on torps might confuse the gunship about which missile to use a missile break on... the torp's lock masks any other missile lock-ons... so you might be timing for a torp and be hit from behind by clusters/concs.... another torp fired closer

 

I think it's been made clear here why a single strike firing torps is no threat to a gunship. As for two or more strikes firing at the same gunship, this disrupts YOUR OWN team much more than it disrupts your enemy. If you need two players (doesn't matter if they're strikes or scouts or whatever) to kill a single enemy player, then you're essentially halfing your team numbers. That means they have twice the avalible people to actually fight. So it's not worth it even then.

 

As for the gunships confused about missile breaks, a gunship generally breaks ANY missile that's fired towards it (at least the way my gsf buddies and I play). Even clusters deal too much damage to a gunship with double volley, and it's not a strike that has the shields to tank them.

[Oldmanripper]

Figured Begeren Colony should be heard from.

 

Fix for Rycer / Star Guard - Reduce cooldown of missle break by 5 seconds on any engine ability.

 

Fix for Quell / Pike / Cartel Ship That I Never Bothered Buying Because 10% Requisition Really Isn't Worth Thousands of Cartel Coins How About a Unit Patch Instead? - Reduce cooldown of missle break by 5 seconds on any engine ability.

 

Fix for Imperium / Clarion - Reduce cooldown of all missle breaks on engine abilities except Power Dive.

 

Fix for GSF - All Ships - Create a PVE mode. And I quote : http://star-conflict.com/ - Plenty of good material and how to make it work there.

 

Gents just make sure you are not holding your breath. Last time we receive a patch for this part of the game was February 14th of 2014. Twenty FOURTEEN. I am actually going to celebrate the 2nd anniversary of a neglected yet awesome addition to the most beloved MMO I have ever played by flying my Strike Fighter against impossible odds and succeeding. Cya in space.

 

-Venom Commander Air Group aka 'Cag'

[FlavivsAetivs]

I think it's been made clear here why a single strike firing torps is no threat to a gunship. As for two or more strikes firing at the same gunship, this disrupts YOUR OWN team much more than it disrupts your enemy. If you need two players (doesn't matter if they're strikes or scouts or whatever) to kill a single enemy player, then you're essentially halfing your team numbers. That means they have twice the avalible people to actually fight. So it's not worth it even then.

 

As for the gunships confused about missile breaks, a gunship generally breaks ANY missile that's fired towards it (at least the way my gsf buddies and I play). Even clusters deal too much damage to a gunship with double volley, and it's not a strike that has the shields to tank them.

 

This^^

 

~ Eudoxia

[JasonSzeremi]

I think it's been made clear here why a single strike firing torps is no threat to a gunship. As for two or more strikes firing at the same gunship, this disrupts YOUR OWN team much more than it disrupts your enemy. If you need two players (doesn't matter if they're strikes or scouts or whatever) to kill a single enemy player, then you're essentially halfing your team numbers. That means they have twice the avalible people to actually fight. So it's not worth it even then.

 

As for the gunships confused about missile breaks, a gunship generally breaks ANY missile that's fired towards it (at least the way my gsf buddies and I play). Even clusters deal too much damage to a gunship with double volley, and it's not a strike that has the shields to tank them.

 

if a gunship is busy using engine breaks, it is disrupted.... if say T3 strikes can distrupt gunships at 15k then maybe the generalist fighters have a role.... the problem with being a jack of all trades, master of none, is it generally takes two of you to get the job of one specialist.... but they can team up on gunships, bombers, scouts.... so they have a role to apply to multiple targets but it does take more of them to get the job done. Currently.... to disrupt one gunship I have to get close to it and chase it all over creation.... at-least my not-so-meta strike is neutralizing one 1600 damage per shot artillery piece untill I kill it, or it's friends kill me (depending on the other teams organization) a bit more missile range makes it easier for a strike to 'peal' a gunship from it's intended role... killing it would be nice too but I'm a strike pilot and I am used to trying to think outside of strict kills. Besides, if I'm burning the gunship's missile breaks, those kill doctors in the scouts can pounce it or the other gunships trying to target me to take pressure off their friend.

 

Gunships confused about missile breaks: you see the blue prot coming right at you, try to time your evasive manuver to get your rail gun shot off, and someone else has locked a conc, or cluster on you from another angle you don't see.... the missile lock warning _does not_ tell you how many missiles are locked on you, only that any of them are in flight. Imagine a T2 strike (or gunship) with thermite and proton torps ranged 15, you missile break one only to face another lock, over and over again...

Edited November 5, 2015 by JasonSzeremi

[JasonSzeremi]

(fix for _insert strike fighter chassis_ - reduce cooldown on all engine abilities by 5 seconds (except power dive)

Fix for GSF - All Ships - Create a PVE mode. And I quote : http://star-conflict.com/ - Plenty of good material and how to make it work there.

-Venom Commander Air Group aka 'Cag'

 

Reduced engine maneuver cool downs are a big help when it comes to dealing with missiles, the best burst weapons of strike fighters, and not entirely everyone else. Retro thrusters don't usually save me from TT super charged burst lasers and/or rocket pods. Barrel roll hasn't protected me from every rail gun shot right at me, power dive hasn't even saved me from rail shots.... especially from sentry drones. Reducing strikes engine maneuver cool downs by 5 seconds might bring them closer to having 2 missile breaks, but strikes need more then the ability to lose control of their flight stick for 3+ seconds and get a modest evasion buff...

Truth be told, I get almost as many kills(assists) in my T1 strike from making others use engine maneuvers and crash as I do from actually planting that last shot.

 

as for the PVE gsf mode? that might save gsf, especially on servers where the pvp pops are falling away

[NeverEvar]

I'm quite sure that abilities are type based not ship class based.

 

And 5 sec reduction on BR would not help T2 strike. Kaio Turn would still be an inferior choice even with 10 sec cooldown.

 

Increased range, would only be annoying, and if GS dose not now who is in conc or cluster rage...well...he deserved to die.

 

IMO

 

t1) Strike lacks defences vs Ion

 

t2) lacks mobility and defences against anything and reliable dmg delivery

 

t3) is mediocre but a very good tank ship

[Kinsha]

The devs made a big point of specifically increasing the cooldown of engine maneuvers to 15 seconds, up from 10. Strikes were generally hard to nail with missiles with gunships being damn near impossible to hit with anything that wasn't a cluster missile.

 

For those that don't remember:

K-turn, retro thrusters and snap turn went from 10 to 15 seconds.

Barrel roll went from 10- 20 seconds and gained a engine cost increase.

Power dive stayed the same and actually got a engine cost removal. This was probably due to power dive being the least used engine maneuver.

 

I think reducing barrel roll down to 15 seconds would be a bigger buff than people think. Back when the T2 strike had a 10 second barrel roll, it was extremely difficult to kill it. They could constantly barrel roll away and move the shield arcs around. Lowering the engine maneuver cooldown for strikes would just make it harder for strikes to kill strikes and based on what I've seen on this thread, the primary complaint for most is that it's just plain harder to kill on a strike vs other ships.

[Greezt]

t1) Strike lacks defences vs Ion

 

t2) lacks mobility and defences against anything and reliable dmg delivery

 

t3) is mediocre but a very good tank ship

 

1)The only defense against ions is evasion... So basically, the only ships with defense against ions are scouts, and to a lesser extent gunships. The problem is that it feels like strikes (all of them, not only the T1) lack defense against ions, because

a) Unlike bombers, they can't effectively do their jobs while LoSing, and

b) They lack the scouts' ability to close the distance, or open it, fast enough to be outside of the threat range.

 

2)The only strike with any sort of mobility is the T1, and even that ship's mobility is a joke. The T2's defenses are ok, it's the mobility that kills it. It can tank a couple of shots no problem, just like the T3, but it lacks the heals and short engine maneuver. I do agree that the T2 is very weak though. It's basically heavy lasers with clusters and a rare torp at best.

 

3) I completely disagree with you here. The T3 is a mediocre damage dealer, but it's the only strike that's almost good enough to actually be of use in serious games in my opinion. Not only is it very tanky, but it brings great utilities into the game. if it was maneuverable enough to not be scout food, and if repair probes had a slightly larger range, it would be great.

[ALaggyGrunt]

The devs made a big point of specifically increasing the cooldown of engine maneuvers to 15 seconds, up from 10. Strikes were generally hard to nail with missiles with gunships being damn near impossible to hit with anything that wasn't a cluster missile.

 

For those that don't remember:

K-turn, retro thrusters and snap turn went from 10 to 15 seconds.

Barrel roll went from 10- 20 seconds and gained a engine cost increase.

Power dive stayed the same and actually got a engine cost removal. This was probably due to power dive being the least used engine maneuver.

 

I think reducing barrel roll down to 15 seconds would be a bigger buff than people think. Back when the T2 strike had a 10 second barrel roll, it was extremely difficult to kill it. They could constantly barrel roll away and move the shield arcs around. Lowering the engine maneuver cooldown for strikes would just make it harder for strikes to kill strikes and based on what I've seen on this thread, the primary complaint for most is that it's just plain harder to kill on a strike vs other ships.

 

It wasn't just strikes. It was also a component on every META ship: the T1 GS and both scouts, and people complained about it getting a ship to a sat too fast.

[Kinsha]

It wasn't just strikes. It was also a component on every META ship: the T1 GS and both scouts, and people complained about it getting a ship to a sat too fast.

 

Ah yes I had forgotten to mention that barrel roll was basically used for mobility rather than evading fire a large portion of that version of GSF. Still, the combination of barrel roll and a low CD mean that duels between 2 ships left very small windows for combat and dragged combat out unnecessarily.

[FlavivsAetivs]

I still use barrel roll for mobility. Pop it at 12K and perfect for hitting a gunship. Also great for getting to a satellite before anyone else. Albeit I don't often fly scout.

 

~ Eudoxia

[Kinsha]

I still use barrel roll for mobility. Pop it at 12K and perfect for hitting a gunship. Also great for getting to a satellite before anyone else. Albeit I don't often fly scout.

 

~ Eudoxia

 

Barrel roll back then was basically used on cooldown to shoot you forward 5km. It was more energy efficient to use barrel roll than to use afterburner to move 5km. The cooldown was short enough that even if someone engaged you shortly after you barrel rolled, you'd still be able to barrel roll back out before you died. That may have been fine with the T2 strikes which were able to BR in fire a missile or 2 and BR out, but it made gunships extremely hard to lock down. The nerf to BR really hurt that playstyle for the T2 strike. It was similar to what a T2 strike feels like when you have quick charge shield on it and use BR to get out of the area, except you had 600 more shielding on each arc and missile breaks every 10 seconds.

Edited November 6, 2015 by Kinsha

[Lavaar]

I think we may be looking at this entire issue from the wrong angle. The strike fighter's problem, quite simply, is that their design forces them to fly the same way that a scout does, without the advantage of speed and turning ability that is gifted to the scout. If the gunships and bombers didn't have their specialties which give them unique roles and were also forced to fight in the same way as a scout, then they would be considered even worse options than the strike is currently.

 

Why not give strikes something unique, something which allows for them to be vastly superior in certain situations the same way that gunships, bombers and scouts all have their own optimal situation, while still retaining the "jack of all trades" ideal?

 

A suggestion I have would be to VASTLY increase the speed and responsiveness of the strikes strafing (SHIFT + WASD) capabilities. The problem that the strikes currently have isn't so much a lack of firepower, rather it is in the inability to effectively deliver that firepower by pointing it where it needs to be (Quads, Heavies, Ion's are all guilty of this). Imagine a strike that could "pivot" around a target in its sights without having to turn, maneuver carefully through obstacles, and, with surgical precision, quickly and efficiently dispatch a bomber hugging under the node while using the terrain as cover. Doing this would allow the strikes to have a clear advantage in a number of situations, and would clearly distinguish it as a separate class from the scout.

 

I have avoided this thread for the most part because I do not often engage in the mathematical discussions regarding the usefulness of one component versus another, and I often rely on my experience with what works best with my play style. Right now the strikes do not have a definitive play style, and I believe that this, or something similar to this, would go a lot further than simply stealing a killer component from another class, or buffing a stat here and there.

[Kinsha]

I think we may be looking at this entire issue from the wrong angle. The strike fighter's problem, quite simply, is that their design forces them to fly the same way that a scout does, without the advantage of speed and turning ability that is gifted to the scout. If the gunships and bombers didn't have their specialties which give them unique roles and were also forced to fight in the same way as a scout, then they would be considered even worse options than the strike is currently.

 

Why not give strikes something unique, something which allows for them to be vastly superior in certain situations the same way that gunships, bombers and scouts all have their own optimal situation, while still retaining the "jack of all trades" ideal?

 

A suggestion I have would be to VASTLY increase the speed and responsiveness of the strikes strafing (SHIFT + WASD) capabilities. The problem that the strikes currently have isn't so much a lack of firepower, rather it is in the inability to effectively deliver that firepower by pointing it where it needs to be (Quads, Heavies, Ion's are all guilty of this). Imagine a strike that could "pivot" around a target in its sights without having to turn, maneuver carefully through obstacles, and, with surgical precision, quickly and efficiently dispatch a bomber hugging under the node while using the terrain as cover. Doing this would allow the strikes to have a clear advantage in a number of situations, and would clearly distinguish it as a separate class from the scout.

 

I have avoided this thread for the most part because I do not often engage in the mathematical discussions regarding the usefulness of one component versus another, and I often rely on my experience with what works best with my play style. Right now the strikes do not have a definitive play style, and I believe that this, or something similar to this, would go a lot further than simply stealing a killer component from another class, or buffing a stat here and there.

 

That's a pretty interesting idea. I hope the engine can accommodate something like this. This would at the very least give the strike a higher skill ceiling.

Edited November 7, 2015 by Kinsha

[FlavivsAetivs]

I like it.

 

~ Eudoxia

[Ramalina]

Mm, spend a few games in a bomber, a gunship, and a scout, and use only primary weapons, oh, and no BLCs.

 

Then you can come back and tell me all about how strikes don't suffer from any lack of firepower.

 

 

That said, the strafe idea is really interesting. Probably not enough on its own, but really interesting.

 

Pretty cool too. It wouldn't be like the physics of real space flight, but in some ways you'd be able to get a lot closer.

 

How fast were you thinking? Full throttle, 1/2, 1/3?

 

Asteroids would have another phase of severe OPness for a while though.

 

 

Got any other ideas for unusual mechanics floating around?