Carnage/Combat Reevaluation

[milkandcereal]

Hey Friends,

Now that we have seen at least some attempts at fixing Rage and Annihilation, isn't it time we took a look at Carnage? I have always been a huge fan of carnage, it was the one spec that demanded skill to play pre-3.0. I wanted to specifically address some of the changes that really confuse me, specifically the ravage damage reduction and gore changes for PVE players that absolutely ruined the spec for PVP. I am mainly curious to get feedback from PVE players about the lower cooldown on ravage with reduced damage, is this actually helpful? It seems that this isn't even used in any of the specs rotations because not only is it difficult to get ravages off but the reduced damage makes it less of a priority. Smarter people then myself have made countless threads on this topic so I won't go into too much detail but I would like to hear some suggestions as to some equilibrium we can reach between PVP and PVE that would satisfy everyone. From a PVP perspective, Carnage has essentially turned into a three dps ability class, gore - massacre - devastating blast. This not only makes the class boring, but it also makes it very predictable and much less effective in ranked. With the old ravage, both higher damage and higher cooldown, we were able to create extremely effective precise burst windows that made the class so desirable. Now, I feel like all I do is run in circles spamming massacre with the occasional devastating blast, sure it does pretty well for sustained damage, but it's absolutely mind numbing and sub-par burst for pvp when compared to powertechs or operatives. Myself, like many of you, would give just about anything to get pre-3.0 marauder back, but since that is unlikely to happen we need to keep spamming this forum with suggestions and idea until someone listens.

[Svarthrafn]

Well Ravage is useful for proccing the set bonus on Vicious Throw. The only two things I would like to see on Carnage is some ability similar to what Fury has where you can get a small window of CC immunity, and possibly changing Gore to a charge system (2-3 charges).

 

Other than that, simplicity is what makes the spec fun for me. I can focus more on what is going on around me, which is way more important in PVP where I primarily play. We already have two mara specs that play like a piano; we don't need another.

Edited May 23, 2015 by Svarthrafn

[jauvtus]

Hey Friends,

Now that we have seen at least some attempts at fixing Rage and Annihilation, isn't it time we took a look at Carnage? I have always been a huge fan of carnage, it was the one spec that demanded skill to play pre-3.0. I wanted to specifically address some of the changes that really confuse me, specifically the ravage damage reduction and gore changes for PVE players that absolutely ruined the spec for PVP. I am mainly curious to get feedback from PVE players about the lower cooldown on ravage with reduced damage, is this actually helpful? It seems that this isn't even used in any of the specs rotations because not only is it difficult to get ravages off but the reduced damage makes it less of a priority. Smarter people then myself have made countless threads on this topic so I won't go into too much detail but I would like to hear some suggestions as to some equilibrium we can reach between PVP and PVE that would satisfy everyone. From a PVP perspective, Carnage has essentially turned into a three dps ability class, gore - massacre - devastating blast. This not only makes the class boring, but it also makes it very predictable and much less effective in ranked. With the old ravage, both higher damage and higher cooldown, we were able to create extremely effective precise burst windows that made the class so desirable. Now, I feel like all I do is run in circles spamming massacre with the occasional devastating blast, sure it does pretty well for sustained damage, but it's absolutely mind numbing and sub-par burst for pvp when compared to powertechs or operatives. Myself, like many of you, would give just about anything to get pre-3.0 marauder back, but since that is unlikely to happen we need to keep spamming this forum with suggestions and idea until someone listens.

 

Right now Rage and Annihilation is ok, but Annihilation won't be viable after 3.2.1. I personally play Watchman (Annihilation), but I have some Combat (Carnage) friends, focusing on HM and NiM content in PVE. None of them likes the new Combat for PVE, it's a mess there, too. I really don't know what the devs are thinking, the sents/maras are only getting worse both in PVE or PVP. I wish I could say that we are weak in one because they better the other, but that's not the case

[Bonzenaattori]

Hey Friends,

Now that we have seen at least some attempts at fixing Rage and Annihilation, isn't it time we took a look at Carnage? I have always been a huge fan of carnage, it was the one spec that demanded skill to play pre-3.0. I wanted to specifically address some of the changes that really confuse me, specifically the ravage damage reduction and gore changes for PVE players that absolutely ruined the spec for PVP. I am mainly curious to get feedback from PVE players about the lower cooldown on ravage with reduced damage, is this actually helpful? It seems that this isn't even used in any of the specs rotations because not only is it difficult to get ravages off but the reduced damage makes it less of a priority. Smarter people then myself have made countless threads on this topic so I won't go into too much detail but I would like to hear some suggestions as to some equilibrium we can reach between PVP and PVE that would satisfy everyone. From a PVP perspective, Carnage has essentially turned into a three dps ability class, gore - massacre - devastating blast. This not only makes the class boring, but it also makes it very predictable and much less effective in ranked. With the old ravage, both higher damage and higher cooldown, we were able to create extremely effective precise burst windows that made the class so desirable. Now, I feel like all I do is run in circles spamming massacre with the occasional devastating blast, sure it does pretty well for sustained damage, but it's absolutely mind numbing and sub-par burst for pvp when compared to powertechs or operatives. Myself, like many of you, would give just about anything to get pre-3.0 marauder back, but since that is unlikely to happen we need to keep spamming this forum with suggestions and idea until someone listens.

 

Combat spec is not an ideal concept for this game alone:

 

No auto attack mechanic, meaning no spell weaving (which if optimized can account for 33% of ur dps in other mmos)

Laughable off-hand mechanisms: meaning ur offhand does close to nothing UNTIL it actually hits the target, and with this overtly redundant accuracy prequisite the chances just get lower and lower

Most mmos design a dual wield class around the energy of you being the fastest class, being stuck at a base 1.5 global cooldown, gimps your dps output, and leaves you in a gilded chain. Alacrity is nice but the stat ratios are far too low, and I don't know whether the 3% alacrity on ataru was even a choice or a gamble.

Mstrike nerf was just the start of the bull...

Clashing blast makes me sad as hell as I preferred Blade Storm's animation, and I feel they could've goten a LOT more creative than just a carbon copy cooldown sharer.

 

Apart from that in my opinion everything else that makes a Combat spec trash is the same as every other discipline on sentinel.

Crap utilities with quesitonable positioning. blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah

I'm trying my best not to complain about it much simply because I get the feeling they're gona find a new impressive way to destroy this class in a month or two

 

The 2-3 precision charges thing was an idea I brought up previously...

Simply put make it similar to Overload Sabers... but we all know bw are too ***** for that.

The loss of Riposte and cauterize needs to be compensated... either give us a outside global cooldown skill (like cleave or something) or give us a cc like weapon disarm or something, seeing as we are called COMBAT you'd think we'd have some combat expertise...

Personally I feel Sentinel should have their own unique execute that's melee range and hits harder than dispatch but... again bw are too *****... soooo whatever

Edited May 24, 2015 by Bonzenaattori

[g_mK]

TBH I think that Combat/Carnage is fine. It's raw dps output is fine and being able to ravage/Master strike is more about positioning than anything.

[Costello]

I would love it if they re-evaluated Combat/Carnage.

 

That said with the coming nerf to annihilation I think the entire class needs and across the board increase to damage. All the specs under perform at this point.

 

That said Carnage seems to be about maximizing the gore window, in a way I understand this its ignoring 100% of someones armour for 3 seconds. It feels a little like its blown out of proportion as to how powerful or unique this is some classes only have 20% armour. So its a 20% damage increase for 3 seconds.

 

Ravage isn't what it used to be almost to the point that the hardest hitting attack is devastating blast followed up with vicious throw. These are now the two that we have a chance of procing. In no way bad skills but really just a step up from basic skills. While Massacre replaces vicious slash as our 'filler' ability. A damn fine filler ability but it all feels a little like basic + rather than a unique and powerful advance class.

 

It would be nice it they made carnage the responsive spec requiring reacting to attacks and taking advantage of the situation and positioning. The marauder was all about swift violence to dominate the battle field. Yet in reality it favours fighting training dummies having little ability to move in devastate opponents then move out. It sadly favours fights that require no moment and act more like rocks in a battle with any movement costing attacks and time on target. Which has to be the opposite of what the class was meant to be.

[Sarafain]

Using Berserk Ravage fits in every other Gore window with a DB, this is without any extra alacrity. The spec changes mean you can't play the way it was pre 2.8. The changes make the class very fast paced to line up every other burst window to include Berserk.

 

I don't PvP on my Mara! Having to line up Ravage in a Gore window on a non stationary target without assistance from group members seems overly difficult. With someone assisting and lining up stuns for that combo the burst matches that of pre 2.8, just in 2 cycles instead of a long one.

 

Overwhelm should be reworked to allow movement while Ravage is being channelled instead of immobilizing target to match ranged classes that can cast and move.

[zhaiyan]

Hey Friends,

From a PVP perspective, Carnage has essentially turned into a three dps ability class, gore - massacre - devastating blast. This not only makes the class boring, but it also makes it very predictable and much less effective in ranked. With the old ravage, both higher damage and higher cooldown, we were able to create extremely effective precise burst windows that made the class so desirable.

 

Exactly, I second this. High risk of ravage yields high reward. No matter in efficient team work or chaos of regs, have your ravage set up is like an art, it occurs, it fully lands and it kills. Now its risk is lower but not low enough, ravage is still an alarm that leads to stun/push back even if u previously are not focused, but the reward is much worse as the damage is comparable to 2 massacre... I personally would exchange the hard stun for the old ravage.

 

Now, I feel like all I do is run in circles spamming massacre with the occasional devastating blast, sure it does pretty well for sustained damage, but it's absolutely mind numbing and sub-par burst for pvp when compared to powertechs or operatives.

yeah, it produces like 2k+ dps in intensive fight but if I really want to dps I would go for dot class and spread my stupid dots... The burst for carnage is really a meh now without ravage rupture retaliation and shorter gore. So called "moderate burst and moderate sustain dps" is a bad design in my opinion for PvP (maybe not good for pve as well, where dps number is the checker). Carnage and rage are two types of burst, one needs to align their burst while having good AOE output, and another once needed to set the burst window up rather than just press three buttons. There is no wrong to build two burst spec and I don't see why they have to make the "moderate" thing.

 

As to the mobility... Glad they are working to fix it. I do accept best mobile class drop to 2nd, 3rd in one patch from 2.10 -> 3.0, but bring it down to bottom, thats just too much.

[airswoosh]

with 3.0 they have done nothing but nerf nerf nerf.

 

For Combat tree Sents:

 

Cyclone slash is useless as clashing blast is on the same cool down and has the damage priority.

 

They took away precision slash and made precision a one off click buff.

 

They removed rebuke, cauterize and slowed down the cool downs in general.

 

Sure the Combat spec has a pretty easy rotation once you get it down, but the fact of the matter is the class has lost dps attacks, gotten slower on global cool downs, has an attack that is useless in Cyclone Slash, and even regular slash attack is obsolete with blade rush.

 

With each new patch there is not been any changes in a positive manner to buff the class back up, it is in fact getting slower making it much harder to produce the dps numbers needed for end game ops runs on the pve side. Most changes are focused on the PVP side.

 

Even the utilities changes have adversely affected the class.

 

All of this on top of having the new end game ops range dps dependent and making Sents and mdps classes that numbers are more effective with positioning and standing in place less effective by having to run around like chickens with their heads cut off. Sure the Devs have said they are focusing on making the class more mobile, but any changes past 3.0 have yet to do so (making a speed burst stand alone utility just makes you run faster not be able to be mobile and attack). Unless they make lightsaber that can extend 50m there isn't really anything that is going to make a Sent more mobile and be able to keep up with the Dps numbers that made the class playable to begin with.

 

The more changes they have made the less viable it is to play a Sent in any tree. Might as well roll a commando or slinger if you want to dps at this point.

Edited May 29, 2015 by airswoosh

[Azurestone]

Hey Friends,

Now that we have seen at least some attempts at fixing Rage and Annihilation, isn't it time we took a look at Carnage? I have always been a huge fan of carnage, it was the one spec that demanded skill to play pre-3.0. I wanted to specifically address some of the changes that really confuse me, specifically the ravage damage reduction and gore changes for PVE players that absolutely ruined the spec for PVP. I am mainly curious to get feedback from PVE players about the lower cooldown on ravage with reduced damage, is this actually helpful? It seems that this isn't even used in any of the specs rotations because not only is it difficult to get ravages off but the reduced damage makes it less of a priority. Smarter people then myself have made countless threads on this topic so I won't go into too much detail but I would like to hear some suggestions as to some equilibrium we can reach between PVP and PVE that would satisfy everyone. From a PVP perspective, Carnage has essentially turned into a three dps ability class, gore - massacre - devastating blast. This not only makes the class boring, but it also makes it very predictable and much less effective in ranked. With the old ravage, both higher damage and higher cooldown, we were able to create extremely effective precise burst windows that made the class so desirable. Now, I feel like all I do is run in circles spamming massacre with the occasional devastating blast, sure it does pretty well for sustained damage, but it's absolutely mind numbing and sub-par burst for pvp when compared to powertechs or operatives. Myself, like many of you, would give just about anything to get pre-3.0 marauder back, but since that is unlikely to happen we need to keep spamming this forum with suggestions and idea until someone listens.

 

I don't understand marauders as well as you guys do, but I hope I can make some constructive contributions to this topic.

 

 

From information I collected, they nerfed down the ravage damage, as a ninja nerf, primarily to balance the unfair advantage merc had commando. Since merc always had a secondary weapon but mando had a shield, merc always parses higher than mando, so they changed the way secondary weapon factors into bonus damage but carnage ravage became the collateral damage.

 

 

If that were true, I do not think they will ever buff back the marauder ravage, at least not for the time being.

[jauvtus]

I don't understand marauders as well as you guys do, but I hope I can make some constructive contributions to this topic.

 

 

From information I collected, they nerfed down the ravage damage, as a ninja nerf, primarily to balance the unfair advantage merc had commando. Since merc always had a secondary weapon but mando had a shield, merc always parses higher than mando, so they changed the way secondary weapon factors into bonus damage but carnage ravage became the collateral damage.

 

 

If that were true, I do not think they will ever buff back the marauder ravage, at least not for the time being.

 

TBH I can't exactly understand your whole argument, but as I see, you compare us to Merc vs Commando. But both sentinels and marauders have 2 weapons, so I don't understand. We need higher damage than Guardians/Juggs, we are the ones who are built for total damage, not them.

Edited May 30, 2015 by jauvtus

[g_mK]

If anything a simple increase of PS/Gore to 4.5s would give combat/carnage the dps increase it needs

[detora]

If anything a simple increase of PS/Gore to 4.5s would give combat/carnage the dps increase it needs

 

Carnage's DPS output is fine (in PvP at least). If Gore was brought back to 4.5sec, the CD would have to be increased to 15sec to compensate. It essentially then would be the same as it was pre2.0 (minus Rupture and Retaliate).

[UrbanSaint]

I personally find the spec fun for the most part. Feels very fast-paced., and dps output is fine as well. But I do get the feeling every so often that the spec feels very "one trick pony"-ish. The spec is basically filler attacks (Blade Rush, Twin Saber Throw, Basic attack(?)) until Precision allows you to do other things. It would be nice to not have to rely on what we can do in the Precision window to be our only claim to fame Edited May 30, 2015 by UrbanSaint

[Anishor]

Those filler attacks are fun and getting extra blade rush during a zen window is a great way to burst healers down without them expecting it.

[Jboath]

We lost crippling throw, we lost cauterize.

 

The amount of times we spam blade rush is ridiculous.

 

Strike and slash are completely useless.

 

I really like the idea of 2 or 3 charges of precision instead of the time based window. As some of us on slower computers or connections are seriously hurt by this.

 

I would put blade rush on a 3-5s cooldown, with a buff on slash, and crippling throw put back in. The leg slash utilities are a joke unless you want to combine them. Leg slash is useless pve ops wise, but I never see people mentioning that pvp wise, and it's 20% healing received debuff.

 

I still think the meditation heroic utility should be a class base line. Force camo utilities still need to be combined. Commandos can free cast build their stacks beforehand. Granted we build centering much faster than their supercharge.

Edited June 5, 2015 by Jboath

[ZeroPlus]

If anything a simple increase of PS/Gore to 4.5s would give combat/carnage the dps increase it needs

Carnage's DPS output is fine (in PvP at least). If Gore was brought back to 4.5sec, the CD would have to be increased to 15sec to compensate. It essentially then would be the same as it was pre2.0 (minus Rupture and Retaliate).

 

Actually, I think a middle term would be interesting.

 

PS/Gore would allow the next 3 melee hits (successful *or* not, so misses would consume a "stack") to ignore 100% armor. The buff would last 4,5 seconds.

 

That way the current "intent" would be maintained (3 seconds allows for 3 attacks (considering that the global cooldown is 1,5s) or for the 3 hits of Ravage) while giving some leeway to account for lag/knockbacks/being temporarily out of range/etc.

 

The ability would be no more "overpowered" than it is today.

This way there would be no need to increase the cooldown.

Players would just more consistently be able to land the 3 hits that ignore armor (that is after all the "intent" of the ability).

[qwopicus]

I'd like to point out that ravage is still valuable...

 

You have two burst rotations as carnage.

 

Gore-> dev blast-> VT

Berserk-> gore-> ravage-> dev blast

 

You alternate between those, while spamming massacre. OR....

You could learn the tricks of the class. Here's something a charge based gore wouldn't let you do.

 

VT-> (very fast) gore-> Dev blast-> massacre

 

You can abuse the hit delay in the game to also achieve what I believe to be some of the highest burst possible, assuming auto-crit VT and a decent ravage.

 

Berzerk-> VT-> (very fast) gore-> Ravage-> Dev blast

 

Same thing works with DST. So I prefer a time based gore. If you wanted to add some CC immunity though, I wouldn't complain although despite how annoying it is to get stunned or knockbacked during gore, I think I understand where the class is. It has very easy surface mechanics, but hard to master subtle ones, like using the throw trick I mentioned, or triggering certain abilities during berserk to give them shorter cooldowns.

 

We're far more durable than almost any burst class I can think of. With 3 stacks of frenzied sabers and cloak of pain up, I sit at 55% DR, which I can maintain pretty much forever. Marksmen snipers, arsenal mercs, AP PTs, dec sins... The only class that can really compete is a good concealment Op, but of course they beat everything

 

I can sympathize, and sometimes I feel like a massacre spammer. But overall, this is one of my favorite specs, and I'm not sure I want to risk them changing it around. The only thing I want on this spec (preferably the whole class) is 30% reduced damage while stunned.

Edited June 6, 2015 by qwopicus