Fallen Empire - A metaphor for BioWare?

[jedip_enguin]

3/10 - Needs a bigger sig.

[Bluerodian]

How does your first post help anyone or anything? Go on..

 

Why are you trying to flamebait the OP? You disagree with him which is fine but find a better way to express it. You might have an easier time getting your point heard.

[Vallerine]

How does your first post help anyone or anything? Go on..

 

The op is just posting his opinion about the game....

 

Not everything posted on these forums is meant to help anyone or anything all of the time.

 

Exactly how are your posts helping anyone? All you seem to be doing is shouting "troll!". Why don't you actually read what he said about bioware and the game and respond with your thoughts and opinions about bioware and this game, and state whether you agree or disagree with the OP, rather than whine about whether or not he is trolling.

Edited May 19, 2015 by Vallerine

[TUXs]

Exactly. I started a thread on BioWare. Then they make the post about me and make personal attacks. Note that I don't get personal, other than to criticize their use of personal attacks.

 

That's what separates me from the real trolls who are fond of calling others trolls.

Yup. The personal attacks are ridiculous.

 

On topic, I think "Fallen Empire" is a great metaphor, intentional or not.

[TUXs]

How does your first post help anyone or anything? Go on..

This is the General forum, not Customer Support. This is a place to discuss anything SWTOR related.

[ZionHalcyon]

This is the General forum, not Customer Support. This is a place to discuss anything SWTOR related.

 

Exactly.

[azudelphi]

I don't really have any complaints about this game or Bioware. When the thing that aggravates me the most is cape clipping on speeders, then the game is in pretty good shape from my perspective.

 

See... I don't think the game is that immune to critique. Don't get me wrong... I enjoy the game. I have a good community I play with.

 

But there are some serious issues. 6-12 months for a new operation... and how many months since a new warzone? Singular story-arcs instead of factional instead of class story? Class imbalances in PVP? PVE having a horrific bias against melee? Mobs doing seemingly more damage than they ought to? (even with up to date armor I was noticing it while leveling this time) Some seemingly low-hanging fruit of QoL requests that go untouched or without comment? Leading into the question of transparency / communication issues which have only recently made a step in the right direction? (Kudos to the team for their handling of the most recent exploit)

 

Nah. Game is far from having clipping as the singular issue. If that's your annoyance of choice, I understand and respect that everyone comes from a different camp.

 

But those are specific gripes that if the thread were titled, "6 Months without a New Operation - Can We Get a New One" would have garnered sympathy. Instead it's a sort of "Well, EA owns Bioware. Bioware bad. They made their first MMO; they didn't know how! It isn't perfect per my expectations. That's not good. Right people on the forums who clearly are more prone to liking the developer by the very fact of being on the forums. Game sucks. Am I Right? :rak_01:"

[Vallerine]

This community is more toxic than I thought. I'm surprised Bioware aren't banning these trolls and removing these off topic attack posts.

 

Funny thing is, ill probably get a warning or a ban for even mentioning forum moderation.

[leehambly]

the irony

[ZionHalcyon]

How does your first post help anyone or anything? Go on..

 

Its a general forum designed for people to share their general opinions on the game.

 

Why does my opinion need to help anyone or anything, when the point of the forum is to allow people to express their opinions?

[Sarfux]

Hopefully fallen Empire doesn't take the same route as Shadow of Revan. Because I DON'T CARE to hold hands with the other side, unite and take down an even bigger foe. If I'm Republic, I don't want to fight with the Empire. If I'm Empire, I don't want to fight with the Republic. That's NOT the point of Star Wars. The point of Star Wars is dark vs light, Republic vs Empire, Rebels vs. Empire, Pirates vs Bounty Hunters, that type of stuff.

 

I really hope they don't keep up with the non fully voiced side missions either like they did with Rishi and Yavin IV. That just totally blew. Yes, I don't say much if anything negative about the game, call me a fanboy if you must, but that just totally sucked. Cmon BioWare...your bread and butter of this game is gloating that you have EVERY quest interactive fully voiced and then you take the cheap way out by doing wall based text with a little chatter when you pass by? cmon

 

Also, I hope they don't keep up with the Ziost way. Where you MUST finish the last part of the last story or else you cannot get on the planet or see the new content. I mostly likely will never see Ziost with my own two eyes because I've never finished Shadow of Revan on any of my characters. I level my own way But that's ok. Because I really don't care about the Emperor lol.

 

They need to get back to what this game is about. Republic vs Empire and a galaxy divided in a war between light and dark. That is exactly what this game is about. Not the old "sometimes enemies can become friends by fighting together for a common purpose!" I don't care about that. I just want to fight the other side! I want to choose the side and then fight for what I think is right! I don't want to put my ideals and opinions on the backburner and then pretend everything is all buddy buddy with the Empire or Republic and then unite suddenly in a whisp of unprecedented bro love for the galaxy.

 

Roleplay wise, I'm not going to suddenly forget that the person that I'm fighting WITH is the same exact person that just slaughtered thousands of people carelessly on a world and is completely evil...and now I'm supposed to be fighting with him? :confused: It just doesn't make sense!

 

Also, to end. In a way, as much as I have not agreed with Zion in the past, some of the stuff he says makes sense and you know what? It doesn't matter if you agree with him or not. You aren't in his head! He can speculate all he wants and there's NOTHING you can do about it! How would you like it if you were speculating getting all this giddy crazy exciting ideas in your head telling everybody and you were serious about it, then they told you you were a moron for thinking it and you are just saying it to cause a stir? I don't think you would like that too much

 

So just be quiet with the opinion stuff. People know they are just opinions. I think that's pretty apparent. You would think by this day and age people would get past that. People always say their opinion every time they talk. That's a given. That's to be understood without having to tell somebody it's their own opinion! People. Stop antagonizing, stop trolling, let people have their own opinions and if you don't like the person's opinion there is no need to say "leave the game if you don't like it!!!!" Then you can leave the thread if you don't like it! Works both ways.

 

I'm sick and tired of this stuff on these forums. Just stop the bickering already!

[Sarfux]

This community is more toxic than I thought. I'm surprised Bioware aren't banning these trolls and removing these off topic attack posts.

 

Funny thing is, ill probably get a warning or a ban for even mentioning forum moderation.

 

No you won't. You are not doing anything wrong

[leehambly]

Its a general forum designed for people to share their general opinions on the game.

 

Why does my opinion need to help anyone or anything, when the point of the forum is to allow people to express their opinions?

 

You really think this opinion isn't already well presented?

[Holocron]

Just because the truth hurts, it doesn't mean it's bait.

 

I'm pretty new to the game and I have yet to play all of the class stories, but I know after a while it will become stale, like all games eventually do. Right now I'm enjoying the game but I can see where the OP is coming from (if he has played for years).

 

I can also see how toxic the community is when it comes to criticism about the game. Anything negative about it is instantly defined as "trolling" or "bait", when in fact people are just passionate about the game and WANT it to succeed and so point out issues about the game, which some people on this forum can't seem to accept.

 

I agree. Some here on the forums go out of their way to crucify poor Zion, just because they disagree with him, and they get all e-hurt when anyone makes any sort claim against the game that is not full of loveboy rainbows and gumdrops.

[menofhorror]

Most people just can`t handle the truth.

However one thing has to be said: Sure it can always be better but the chance of failure with such a big project is also extremely high. The game could have completely flopped and right now its somewhat there.

 

But don`t try to blame this all on EA. Its Bioware themselves who made the mistakes and are extremely arrogant. The cofounders? Lol, they themselves took the money and fleed because they couldn`t stand being criticized. Their ego was too high for that. Instead of supporting the game and listening what they did wrong they choose to abandon it and run away with their pockets full. They sold out to EA, they wanted to cater to the mass Call of Duty fans. EA gave them the money but they got greedy. Greg Zeschuk himself said in a interview few years ago that he thinks rpgs are getting less popular and how its better to target the mass. It shows his and the other heads started to abandon their genre.

[ZionHalcyon]

You really think this opinion isn't already well presented?

 

This is a General forum where ANYONE can post their opinion, NOT only if someone else beat them to it already.

[ImmortalLowlife]

Lmao..... I've said since they first ANNOUNCED swtor that it should have been a SP-RPG, available for consoles & pc, with multiplayer elements & dlc. And I'm sure by now there are many at BW/EA who feel the same way. But it is what it is....and we're stuck with a SP-MMO. (IKR....irony....)

 

Thankfully, there's enough content here that's "SP friendly" to keep me happy, and enough MMO content to keep mostly everybody else content.

 

 

And don't worry about Zion....tha homeboi got thick skin, and can handle whatever the community throws his way.

[Holocron]

Most people just can`t handle the truth.

However one thing has to be said: Sure it can always be better but the chance of failure with such a big project is also extremely high. The game could have completely flopped and right now its somewhat there.

 

But don`t try to blame this all on EA. Its Bioware themselves who made the mistakes and are extremely arrogant. The cofounders? Lol, they themselves took the money and fleed because they couldn`t stand being criticized. Their ego was too high for that. Instead of supporting the game and listening what they did wrong they choose to abandon it and run away with their pockets full. They sold out to EA, they wanted to cater to the mass Call of Duty fans. EA gave them the money but they got greedy. Greg Zeschuk himself said in a interview few years ago that he thinks rpgs are getting less popular and how its better to target the mass. It shows his and the other heads started to abandon their genre.

 

 

This! People were screaming for the features they were looking for, both pre-release and during beta. BUT the devs wouldn't comment on any of it, or pretended to allude to it. cause they knew that what they had committed too was too far along and they didn't want to change it.

 

So we don't have things like:

 

• Open worlds that reward exploration
  
• Rich crafting experiences
  
• Non-instance player housing
  
• Full control item placement in houses/ships
  
• Full featured auction house/player vendors
  
• Dynamic and interactive npc's
  
• Player choice options (Armor appearances, weapon choice, fleshed out advanced class systems)
  
• Sitting/laying/prone/crawling
  
• Mini-games
  
• Swoop racing
  
• Full dynamic and meaningful open world pvp
  
• Bounty system
  
• Group speeders
  
• No downtime activities such as entertainers, camps, or shuttle times
  

 

Just to name a few. I know some of you will say that I'm picking some features from SWG, but I have to ask you, how come an MMO that came out in 2003 still has more options, customization, diversity, and richness than SWTOR???

Edited May 19, 2015 by Holocron

[ZionHalcyon]

Hopefully fallen Empire doesn't take the same route as Shadow of Revan. Because I DON'T CARE to hold hands with the other side, unite and take down an even bigger foe. If I'm Republic, I don't want to fight with the Empire. If I'm Empire, I don't want to fight with the Republic. That's NOT the point of Star Wars. The point of Star Wars is dark vs light, Republic vs Empire, Rebels vs. Empire, Pirates vs Bounty Hunters, that type of stuff.

 

I really hope they don't keep up with the non fully voiced side missions either like they did with Rishi and Yavin IV. That just totally blew. Yes, I don't say much if anything negative about the game, call me a fanboy if you must, but that just totally sucked. Cmon BioWare...your bread and butter of this game is gloating that you have EVERY quest interactive fully voiced and then you take the cheap way out by doing wall based text with a little chatter when you pass by? cmon

 

Also, I hope they don't keep up with the Ziost way. Where you MUST finish the last part of the last story or else you cannot get on the planet or see the new content. I mostly likely will never see Ziost with my own two eyes because I've never finished Shadow of Revan on any of my characters. I level my own way But that's ok. Because I really don't care about the Emperor lol.

 

They need to get back to what this game is about. Republic vs Empire and a galaxy divided in a war between light and dark. That is exactly what this game is about. Not the old "sometimes enemies can become friends by fighting together for a common purpose!" I don't care about that. I just want to fight the other side! I want to choose the side and then fight for what I think is right! I don't want to put my ideals and opinions on the backburner and then pretend everything is all buddy buddy with the Empire or Republic and then unite suddenly in a whisp of unprecedented bro love for the galaxy.

 

Roleplay wise, I'm not going to suddenly forget that the person that I'm fighting WITH is the same exact person that just slaughtered thousands of people carelessly on a world and is completely evil...and now I'm supposed to be fighting with him? :confused: It just doesn't make sense!

 

Also, to end. In a way, as much as I have not agreed with Zion in the past, some of the stuff he says makes sense and you know what? It doesn't matter if you agree with him or not. You aren't in his head! He can speculate all he wants and there's NOTHING you can do about it! How would you like it if you were speculating getting all this giddy crazy exciting ideas in your head telling everybody and you were serious about it, then they told you you were a moron for thinking it and you are just saying it to cause a stir? I don't think you would like that too much

 

So just be quiet with the opinion stuff. People know they are just opinions. I think that's pretty apparent. You would think by this day and age people would get past that. People always say their opinion every time they talk. That's a given. That's to be understood without having to tell somebody it's their own opinion! People. Stop antagonizing, stop trolling, let people have their own opinions and if you don't like the person's opinion there is no need to say "leave the game if you don't like it!!!!" Then you can leave the thread if you don't like it! Works both ways.

 

I'm sick and tired of this stuff on these forums. Just stop the bickering already!

 

Actually, quite well said. Very eloquent. Being totally serious.

[ZionHalcyon]

Also Sarfux, allegedly there was a whole Bothawuii plotline that they leapfrogged to get to the whole Revan/Emperor story, so since they are deviating from the original plans anyway, I don't see why they can't let this Emperor thing play out, and then double back by having Marr right on the heels of defeating the Emperor launch a Surprise attack, and have a second sacking of Coruscant with the Empire's new Isotope 5 army. Then bring on Bothawuii and the war.

 

Would pave the way for the Republic to pave a counter attack and assassinate Marr (and maybe Satele is taken out in the Sacking), allowing for the Jedi Consular and Sith Inquisitor respectively to ascend storywise to the pinnacle of their respective governments...

Edited May 19, 2015 by ZionHalcyon

[Djiini]

ZionHalcyon's troll attempts - 5/10.

[Holocron]

ZionHalcyon's troll attempts - 5/10.

 

 

Your attack

 

2/10

[TUXs]

ZionHalcyon's troll attempts - 5/10.

 

And another personal attack...

[DarthDymond]

The once great BioWare, who made awesome, story-driven games and one of, if not the best SW game of all time in SWTOR, now owned by EA, fired most of its creative team that came up with the game, forced the 2 co-founders into retirement, and then took its story-driven MMO and actively tried to NOT do story anymore (and said as much in the Cantina Crawls at the time), until public pressure and feedback (and a 3rd producer advocating the new "players first" mantra of EA) put them back on track starting with Forged Alliances, all while never quite figuring out how to properly communicate with an MMO community nor keep them engaged regardless of WHO was in charge for the entire stretch.

 

While I generally like the direction BioWare is now heading with their story, I can't help but think the game could be so much more, if not for a company unfamiliar with MMOs developing one and having no real clue how to manage it and the community that supports it.

 

How the mighty have fallen - Fallen Empire indeed. How apropos...

At the Cantina Tours they said they were moving away from Class Stories, I don't recall ever hearing about them saying they were moving away from having an overall Story focus.

 

Makeb had a good story. The Dread War story was told over the course of several different updates including multiple Operations and Daily Areas. Coming at it from the other end, every Operation, Flashpoint, and Daily Area introduced into the game has had a story element to it, either a standalone story (e.g. KDY, CZ-198) or part of a larger story arc (e.g. Scum and Villainy, Oricon).

 

Forged Alliances started a new, ongoing story arc, but I don't see it as bringing story back to the game - story never really left. The closest I can think of to this game having lost its story focus is the addition of GSF and GSH, where they devoted resources to filling in perceived 'gaps' in the gameplay without a strong story attached to them.

Edited May 19, 2015 by DarthDymond

[ZionHalcyon]

This! People were screaming for the features they were looking for, both pre-release and during beta. BUT the devs wouldn't comment on any of it, or pretended to allude to it. cause they knew that what they had committed too was too far along and they didn't want to change it.

 

So we don't have things like:

 

• Open worlds that reward exploration
  
• Rich crafting experiences
  
• Non-instance player housing
  
• Full control item placement in houses/ships
  
• Full featured auction house/player vendors
  
• Dynamic and interactive npc's
  
• Player choice options (Armor appearances, weapon choice, fleshed out advanced class systems)
  
• Sitting/laying/prone/crawling
  
• Mini-games
  
• Swoop racing
  
• Full dynamic and meaningful open world pvp
  
• Bounty system
  
• Group speeders
  
• No downtime activities such as entertainers, camps, or shuttle times
  

 

 

Just to name a few. I know some of you will say that I'm picking some features from SWG, but I have to ask you, how come an MMO that came out in 2003 still has more options, customization, diversity, and richness than SWTOR???

 

To be fair, this was never going to be SWG 2, which failed in concept, and which is what it seems you are looking for based on this list. That style of game play just didn't appeal to the masses and didn't hold the interest of people, which is why they completely underwhelmed in subs.

 

That said, there were some things BioWare did want to try and it didn't work out, like swoop racing, where they could never work out the latency issues to reliably figure out who won. And other things on your list ARE now in the game in some form.

 

But as harsh as I have been at times on BioWare, I think being mad at them for not making SWG 2 when SWG failed as a consumer MMO model in the modern day themepark era isn't something to fault them for. If anything be disappointed in the tastes of the General masses, who prefer games they can quickly get into, get into the action, and just as quick get out of. That's where the money is, and unfortunately a super deep system is not something that will pull in that sort of crowd (and this coming from a former SWG Armorsmith who made server best RIS armor pre-cu and loved that system).