ZionHalcyon Posted May 19, 2015 Share Posted May 19, 2015 The once great BioWare, who made awesome, story-driven games and one of, if not the best SW game of all time in SWTOR, now owned by EA, fired most of its creative team that came up with the game, forced the 2 co-founders into retirement, and then took its story-driven MMO and actively tried to NOT do story anymore (and said as much in the Cantina Crawls at the time), until public pressure and feedback (and a 3rd producer advocating the new "players first" mantra of EA) put them back on track starting with Forged Alliances, all while never quite figuring out how to properly communicate with an MMO community nor keep them engaged regardless of WHO was in charge for the entire stretch. While I generally like the direction BioWare is now heading with their story, I can't help but think the game could be so much more, if not for a company unfamiliar with MMOs developing one and having no real clue how to manage it and the community that supports it. How the mighty have fallen - Fallen Empire indeed. How apropos... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ZETA_SCORPII Posted May 19, 2015 Share Posted May 19, 2015 The once great BioWare, who made awesome, story-driven games and one of, if not the best SW game of all time in SWTOR, now owned by EA, fired most of its creative team that came up with the game, forced the 2 co-founders into retirement, and then took its story-driven MMO and actively tried to NOT do story anymore (and said as much in the Cantina Crawls at the time), until public pressure and feedback (and a 3rd producer advocating the new "players first" mantra of EA) put them back on track starting with Forged Alliances, all while never quite figuring out how to properly communicate with an MMO community nor keep them engaged regardless of WHO was in charge for the entire stretch. While I generally like the direction BioWare is now heading with their story, I can't help but think the game could be so much more, if not for a company unfamiliar with MMOs developing one and having no real clue how to manage it and the community that supports it. How the mighty have fallen - Fallen Empire indeed. How apropos... Mr. Jurgens says try harder. 2/10 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
azudelphi Posted May 19, 2015 Share Posted May 19, 2015 You've met your daily quota on bait posts. Congrats! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vallerine Posted May 19, 2015 Share Posted May 19, 2015 (edited) You've met your daily quota on bait posts. Congrats! Just because the truth hurts, it doesn't mean it's bait. I'm pretty new to the game and I have yet to play all of the class stories, but I know after a while it will become stale, like all games eventually do. Right now I'm enjoying the game but I can see where the OP is coming from (if he has played for years). I can also see how toxic the community is when it comes to criticism about the game. Anything negative about it is instantly defined as "trolling" or "bait", when in fact people are just passionate about the game and WANT it to succeed and so point out issues about the game, which some people on this forum can't seem to accept. Edited May 19, 2015 by Vallerine Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DOHboy Posted May 19, 2015 Share Posted May 19, 2015 yet here you are still playing and still paying. if you don't like it you can always leave. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sarfux Posted May 19, 2015 Share Posted May 19, 2015 Well. You certainly turned dismal fast this time Zion. What's with all the posts in the past week btw? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Malastare Posted May 19, 2015 Share Posted May 19, 2015 While I generally like the direction BioWare is now heading with their story, I can't help but think the game could be so much more ...if only they had hired you as the producer, we'd have the perfect game and everyone would be happy. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bluerodian Posted May 19, 2015 Share Posted May 19, 2015 (edited) You've met your daily quota on bait posts. Congrats! Seems pretty on point to me. So much squandered opportunity in so many areas but not the least of which is story. At times I wonder if they should have even bothered with making an MMO and instead had taken that money go continue their single player franchise. They would not have had to saddle themselves with EA, The founders would still be here, and chances are that the single player continuations of KOTOR would have been much better with limited co-op for that multiplayer itch. I wonder how many of Bioware's employees regret the existence of SWTOR. Edited May 19, 2015 by Bluerodian Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ZionHalcyon Posted May 19, 2015 Author Share Posted May 19, 2015 Just because the truth hurts, it doesn't mean it's bait. I'm pretty new to the game and I have yet to play all of the class stories, but I know after a while it will become stale, like all games eventually do. Right now I'm enjoying the game but I can see where the OP is coming from (if he has played for years). I can also see how toxic the community is when it comes to criticism about the game. Anything negative about it is instantly defined as "trolling" or "bait", when in fact people are just passionate about the game and WANT it to succeed and so point out issues about the game, which some people on this forum can't seem to accept. To all you love it or leave it trolls, I suggest you read the above. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
azudelphi Posted May 19, 2015 Share Posted May 19, 2015 (edited) I can also see how toxic the community is when it comes to criticism about the game. Anything negative about it is instantly defined as "trolling" or "bait", when in fact people are just passionate about the game and WANT it to succeed and so point out issues about the game, which some people on this forum can't seem to accept. There is a difference between a critique / criticism of the game... and obvious troll-bait like this post. For example, a legitimate complaint is that they went over a year without a single new operation. It was a serious problem for PVE. And PVP? I don't PVP much but I fully realize the level of frustration of no new maps for them or additional considerations outside some season rewards that is driving a portion of the player-base away. The game is not perfect and has issues... but check out the OP's post history and the threads they've started. It will give you a clearer picture of why I said what I did. As an aside to you personally: Welcome to the game and good hunting. Edited May 19, 2015 by azudelphi Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
leehambly Posted May 19, 2015 Share Posted May 19, 2015 Just because the truth hurts, it doesn't mean it's bait. I'm pretty new to the game and I have yet to play all of the class stories, but I know after a while it will become stale, like all games eventually do. Right now I'm enjoying the game but I can see where the OP is coming from (if he has played for years). I can also see how toxic the community is when it comes to criticism about the game. Anything negative about it is instantly defined as "trolling" or "bait", when in fact people are just passionate about the game and WANT it to succeed and so point out issues about the game, which some people on this forum can't seem to accept. ^^^ but all games apparently become stale, so what the hell are you talking about? And the second paragraph, oh dear... You are clearly very confused, prolly best to go lie down for a bit. Trolls troll because they want the game to succeed? Right, gotcha. There's a significant difference between being constructive AND nitpicking and constantly going over and over and over and over and over (get it yet?) the same old ground, purely to raise minute and mostly irrelevant issues. One helps, the other doesn't... can you see which is which? How does this first post help, exactly? Go on... love to know. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DOHboy Posted May 19, 2015 Share Posted May 19, 2015 Just because the truth hurts, it doesn't mean it's bait. I'm pretty new to the game and I have yet to play all of the class stories, but I know after a while it will become stale, like all games eventually do. Right now I'm enjoying the game but I can see where the OP is coming from (if he has played for years). I can also see how toxic the community is when it comes to criticism about the game. Anything negative about it is instantly defined as "trolling" or "bait", when in fact people are just passionate about the game and WANT it to succeed and so point out issues about the game, which some people on this forum can't seem to accept. The moment OP actually start giving constructive critique we'll take it seriously, but i'm not going to hold my breath. Is this game perfect, no. Is it good and can people still enjoy it absolutely and I have since launch. Many people are on here giving feedback and opinions daily, some are just pure vile not worth the effort to read the posts. Those that think this is the worst game ever, made by the worst company ever, with the worst community ever and yet still pay and sub just to post venom about why they hate it so much make me wonder some times. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TheSeventhJedi Posted May 19, 2015 Share Posted May 19, 2015 Is BioWare the same as it always was? Of course not. We knew that was happening when EA bought them.Is posting on a forum going to change EA's terrible terrible terrible handling of games - well, if there was any possibility of that, methinks it would've already happened. BF4 still randomly erases your progress in campaign, for crying out loud. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vallerine Posted May 19, 2015 Share Posted May 19, 2015 There is a difference between a critique / criticism of the game... and obvious troll-bait like this post. I'm sorry but I don't think it's baiting in my opinion. He is simply saying what he thinks. Maybe you're just paranoid he's trying to bait us. It wasn't bait to me because I wasn't offended by what he said. For example, a legitimate complaint is that they went over a year without a single new operation. It was a serious problem for PVE. And PVP? I don't PVP much but I fully realize the level of frustration of no new maps for them or additional considerations outside some season rewards that is driving a portion of the player-base away. I was pretty surprised they only have 2 level 60 operations...I did expect more from this game. But I am enjoying the lower level operations. The game is not perfect and has issues... but check out the OP's post history and the threads they've started. It will give you a clearer picture of why I said what I did. I'm not one to look up someones posting history. Whatever they said in the past is irrelevant to this thread, and I don't judge people for their past. I simply judge them by what they say in the thread I'm looking at. And my judgement is that they are not baiting. As an aside to you personally: Welcome to the game and good hunting. Thanks, I'm really enjoying myself in this game, i've been sucked in for good Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Callaron Posted May 19, 2015 Share Posted May 19, 2015 (edited) The OP is just a whiner, who likes to yammer on about stuff he/she knows little about, just to get some attention. "Haters gonna hate hate hate hate..." - Taylor Swift. More like to draw attention his giant referral link(s). Edited May 19, 2015 by Callaron Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vallerine Posted May 19, 2015 Share Posted May 19, 2015 Trolls troll because they want the game to succeed? Right, gotcha. That's the thing. To you he may be a troll, but to me isn't not trolling. There's a significant difference between being constructive AND nitpicking and constantly going over and over and over and over and over (get it yet?) the same old ground, purely to raise minute and mostly irrelevant issues. One helps, the other doesn't... can you see which is which? How does this first post help, exactly? Go on... love to know. I don't have a troll "rule book", maybe you can lend me one. Again, just because you don't agree with someone, or just because you don't like what they said, doesn't mean they are trolling. (well, to you they may be trolling, but to others he is not). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TUXs Posted May 19, 2015 Share Posted May 19, 2015 I can also see how toxic the community is when it comes to criticism about the game. Anything negative about it is instantly defined as "trolling" or "bait", when in fact people are just passionate about the game and WANT it to succeed and so point out issues about the game, which some people on this forum can't seem to accept. Don't pay any attention to the antagonists Vallerine. You already know who they are, but they are not representative of the "community" as much as others are. The ironic thing is, they "troll" Zion more than he could ever troll us. Without them jumping in to troll him, his threads would die in an hour or so...instead, they reach multi page rants about how much Zion trolls... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TUXs Posted May 19, 2015 Share Posted May 19, 2015 Again, just because you don't agree with someone, or just because you don't like what they said, doesn't mean they are trolling. . Agreed!!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vallerine Posted May 19, 2015 Share Posted May 19, 2015 Don't pay any attention to the antagonists Vallerine. You already know who they are, but they are not representative of the "community" as much as others are. The ironic thing is, they "troll" Zion more than he could ever troll us. Without them jumping in to troll him, his threads would die in an hour or so...instead, they reach multi page rants about how much Zion trolls... So far all i've seen is people attacking the OP, calling him a troll, saying he's baiting. But does anyone agree or disagree with his statements/opinions? Is the OP wrong? If so, why is he wrong? Maybe someone can explain why the OP is wrong? I agree with the OP and I can relate when he said this game could have been so much more. I haven't "completed" the game yet but from other sources i can see where he's coming from. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ZionHalcyon Posted May 19, 2015 Author Share Posted May 19, 2015 The moment OP actually start giving constructive critique we'll take it seriously, but i'm not going to hold my breath. Is this game perfect, no. Is it good and can people still enjoy it absolutely and I have since launch. Many people are on here giving feedback and opinions daily, some are just pure vile not worth the effort to read the posts. Those that think this is the worst game ever, made by the worst company ever, with the worst community ever and yet still pay and sub just to post venom about why they hate it so much make me wonder some times. I've given constructive critique before and gotten called a troll for it. The problem is that constructive doesn't necessarily mean "polite" or that one must tip-toe through it so as not to offend. And just because constructive criticism is offered, doesn't mean that people here would be receptive to it: those who defend BioWare tooth and nail are notoriously thin-skinned, and their view of "constructive criticism" tends to be what should be in the next cartel pack, not what issues still are fundamentally wrong with the game. If you want some constructive criticism, here's some - no game is perfect, nor will ever be all things to all people, but the key ingredient that separates a successful MMO from one of similar technical capabilities and feel but lacking in the sub department is how that company interacts with the community, and how they choose to communicate with their communities. Turbine is a golden standard in this, so I am not simply pulling things out of whole cloth. But the issue is when someone DOES offer constructive criticism, the "defenders" for lack of a better term first make personal attacks, then attack how the argument shouldn't have relevance because of it compares to other MMOs - but when confronted that they are wrong on how other MMOs do business, they shift the target to how now BioWare is their own thing and SHOULDN'T be compared to other MMOs - its this continual shifting target and desire to get personal with critics that shows which side really is the toxic one. To be clear - I enjoy this game, so no, I am not leaving. However, I see much room for improvement, particularly in the communication department. Its no secret I think the Community Manager position is in the wrong hands based on past actions and lack of interaction, as well as occasional outbursts, notwithstanding the last one. But ask me, and its not like I think they have far to find the right person - I happen to think Tait would be a much better fit in that role, and if allowed to interface with the community more, would elevate it to a much better place. He's far more natural in how he handles people and manages their expectations, and never comes off pompous or condescending. Just my opinion, but hey, why are people threatened by it? And they can say they aren't, but then why get personal if you aren't threatened? Before people want to attack the critics, fix your own house first by sticking to going after people's arguments, not the people themselves. ........ And anyone who thinks I am going after Eric himself doesn't know how to separate professional from personal (since I knew that's what some of you think). Yes, I think Eric is a poor community manager. However, I would have no issue if BioWare moved him to another part of the company in another role or capacity. I don't want the man's livelihood taken from him; I just think he is overmatched for the Community Manager role, and that has borne out over time. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ZionHalcyon Posted May 19, 2015 Author Share Posted May 19, 2015 Don't pay any attention to the antagonists Vallerine. You already know who they are, but they are not representative of the "community" as much as others are. The ironic thing is, they "troll" Zion more than he could ever troll us. Without them jumping in to troll him, his threads would die in an hour or so...instead, they reach multi page rants about how much Zion trolls... Exactly. I started a thread on BioWare. Then they make the post about me and make personal attacks. Note that I don't get personal, other than to criticize their use of personal attacks. That's what separates me from the real trolls who are fond of calling others trolls. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ZETA_SCORPII Posted May 19, 2015 Share Posted May 19, 2015 Exactly. I started a thread on BioWare. Then they make the post about me and make personal attacks. Note that I don't get personal, other than to criticize their use of personal attacks. That's what separates me from the real trolls who are fond of calling others trolls. Sure, Bioware isn't the same company it was back in the day, but that doesn't mean that there aren't talented, hard working people still there. I still play this game everyday and enjoy it. The best thing about this game is that you don't need to follow a storyline to have fun. There is so much to do if you just look. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mmmbuddah Posted May 19, 2015 Share Posted May 19, 2015 To all you love it or leave it trolls, I suggest you read the above. Exactly. The BW defense force has been out in force lately. If ANYONE criticizes the game for its flaws its , "GET THE **** OUT OF HERE, THE GAME IS PERFECT, WE DONT NEED YOUR CRITCISM, RABBLE RABBLE RABBLE! : INSERT RANDOM ASSUMPTUOUS INSULT HERE :" Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
leehambly Posted May 19, 2015 Share Posted May 19, 2015 Exactly. I started a thread on BioWare. Then they make the post about me and make personal attacks. Note that I don't get personal, other than to criticize their use of personal attacks. That's what separates me from the real trolls who are fond of calling others trolls. How does your first post help anyone or anything? Go on.. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vember Posted May 19, 2015 Share Posted May 19, 2015 I don't really have any complaints about this game or Bioware. When the thing that aggravates me the most is cape clipping on speeders, then the game is in pretty good shape from my perspective. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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