DEVS! These Are The Changes We Need!

[Svarthrafn]

Does nobody miss having an ability to knockback/push the enemy?

 

Being a marauder blows when the enemy forms up into a tight ball and starts dropping AoE damage and heals on themselves. We're not as disruptive to things like this as we should be.

[KaellSolaris]

Does nobody miss having an ability to knockback/push the enemy?

 

Being a marauder blows when the enemy forms up into a tight ball and starts dropping AoE damage and heals on themselves. We're not as disruptive to things like this as we should be.

 

Hard-hitting Throw/Pulverizing Throw

 

When you activate Twin Saber Throw/Dual Saber Throw, it knocks back the targets if they are within 4 meters.

 

(The idea is not from me, I read it on a post of the 3.1.1 pts and I really liked it, but I can’t tell who wrote it, the post is no longer available)

[waterboytkd]

Hard-hitting Throw/Pulverizing Throw

 

When you activate Twin Saber Throw/Dual Saber Throw, it knocks back the targets if they are within 4 meters.

 

(The idea is not from me, I read it on a post of the 3.1.1 pts and I really liked it, but I can’t tell who wrote it, the post is no longer available)

 

The only issue with this ability is it's on an 18 second cooldown, and if any ability persisted that reset the CD on TST, it could be much faster knockbacks. I guess if the knockback didn't knockdown, it wouldn't be busted.

[KaellSolaris]

Well, at the moment that is not the case, maybe in futur, but for now doing something like this ( REVAN STYLE, in less powerful ), seems pretty cool

[znihilist]

Answers Updated!

I just need to make something clear before you read my replies, I am not neccerly giving you my own opinion on whether or not I agree with your suggestions (in some place I do). However, I am trying to put myself in the DEV's place and make a judgment on what can be an acceptable change for them and what wouldn't be.

 

[..] I was trying to avoid doing straight clones from Guard/Juggs, but the new Unremitting/Unstoppable? Especially if Tran/Pred does not offer any MI immunity, it would be a way for them to get a few seconds of it.

How about giving (via a utility point) 6 seconds of movement immunity on predation ? Make it a basic perhaps to remove any negative effects but add movement immunity on utility. The number of seconds can be adjusted later on.

 

Or, leave Zealous Ward/Blood Ward in Skillful, and do a utility where activating Force Camouflage resets some vital CDs? Like Force Leap/Charge and/or Twin/Dual Saber Throw?

I am not sure, it doesn't sound very exciting considering how long the CDs, by the time a buffed FC is over you would most likely have these CDs back.

 

As for giving Jedi Promulgator/Cloak of Annihilation something to make it worth a Heroic utility, maybe a Pacify/Obfuscate buff for a little force/tech damage debuff? It would seem to be less powerful to tack some kind of Force/Tech damage debuff to Pacify/Obfuscate than to tack a blanket damage debuff on Awe/Intimidating Roar, mostly because of the AoE-ness of Awe/Intimidating Roar. But based off your post, it seems like you would disagree.

 

If so, why? Is it because Pacify/Obfuscate already has the ability to hose white damage to nil, whereas a small blanket damage debuff can't screw up rotations?

Yes, but there is more to it. For one Obfuscate is very powerful at the job it is intended to, it is a method to neutralize Snipers (but not exclusively). The ability forces the Sniper (or any discipline with White-heavy damage profile) to take a high risk decision with three options: Wait out for the debuff to go away (takes a lot of time), waste the attacks in order to kill you (very high chance the attacks won't connect), or finally switch to yellow attacks (if you are MM then you are screwed, only real alternative if you a white-yellow hybrid). The risk involved here is the ability is its own counter: It is very effective but it is not 100% effective.

 

With that in mind the ability is designed to do something very specific and it is does it excellently, so it doesn't need any heavy utility added on top because it is almost perfect for the job. So adding a taunt on top and/or a heal sound very much an overbuff and a deviation from the intended design (although you don't need to agree with me here, I am just trying to reconstruct DEV mindset). To be honest I wouldn't even put a Force/Tech damage debuff on top, but that wouldn't break it if the debuff was small enough, however, that might not make the utility attractive enough to be chosen.

 

 

*Using 40k hp in PvP gear, 6% is 2400 hp. A big hit for Combat/Carnage or Conc/Fury is in the 10-12k range (it can get bigger, but those aren't common), which at 20% would be around the same, maybe a little less. In PvE gear, the max health goes up, but so does damage dealt, leaving the heals about the same relative to each other...I think.

 

So following my line of thought in the previous paragraph it is clear why I don't think buffing Obfuscate in this matter is okay. To be honest I think extending the range is good enough for the ability.

 

Force Charge is a bit problematic, though, because it's also a resource builder, and part of the rotation for 2 specs (Watchman/Anni and Conc/Fury). It's been designed to be our opener, too, so quite often, we use that just to start engaging the enemy, meaning it's not ready to stay on target.

In PvE it doesn't help with openers but it does help in fights where we have to move to distant targets (think Sparky).

In PvP, how often do you really start the engagement with a target via FC ? How many times you need to switch targets (for whatever reason) and the other target is over 30m away ?

My suggestion wasn't to offer something very powerful, but something interesting enough to be placed in one of the lower tiers. If it is a must we could include an additional range extension on DST.

 

 

As for needing a second 30m root, the 30m range a Masterful tier utility, and I tried to keep everything competitive so taking anything, including 30m root, isn't an auto-pick. But we're also talking two utilities still for the 30m root (still need the Heroic utility for the root), which some might consider too high a price.

 

Really, the biggest problem with the 30m talent is: does anyone take it but NOT take Just Pursuit/Inescapable?

To be honest, I sort of forgot what was really my objection to this. I know Juggs have it, but I don't like excessive copying and for some reason it seems overdoing it. I don't think we need more control, I think we need more freedom from control. Making DT basic 10m with 50% snare + root on skill seems reasonable for me. My suggestion from before on giving some movement immunity on predation would fill the freedom from control gap.

 

That said, what gets broken if we can move and root?

 

Currently, if me MS/Ravage: if they don't pop a root break or knockback, they eat the whole thing; if they do, they just countered the ability.

 

If it's just move: knockbacks probably counter it (if we go far enough away we can't get back in range before the next strike, or if breaking 4m range ends the ability , even if you're between strikes) and a Speed boost counters it; otherwise, they eat the whole thing.

 

Not much difference between the root and move in PvP, but a big difference in PvE, where bosses can't be rooted, but do move.

 

If it's both: a rootbreaker or speed boost by itself doesn't counter it (but how many of those exist? what Consulars/Inquisitors DON'T take Egress/Emersion?), but a speed boost with a root breaker still counters it, as might a knockback.

 

If it does both, stealth/camo still beats it, HtL/HO still beats it, Force Speed + Egress/Emersion still beats it, knockbacks probably still beat it, Tran/Pred still beats it. Stuns still beat it.

 

Maybe I'm missing something, but getting both doesn't really seem to make it a ton more effective. It makes it more effective in PvE, and still gives us a 3-second root for huttball. In all other situations? Seems kinda the same.

I think giving both root and mobility on it falls into the restrictive countering. If the ability roots, then the opposite player has to either blow a medium-CD root breaker/knockback on it, or long-CD stun on you to stop you. If you have mobility, you force the player to either use medium-CD speed boosts or a long-CD stun on you to stop you.

When you have mobility + root on it, you are forcing the player to blow so much of their CDs to counter you. They have to break the root and be much faster than you to escape the damage, or stun you. Not to mention some disciplines have native stun/physics immunities, or speed boosts which is highly restrictive on what you can do to escape the damage. So considering we need more mobility (something that will benefit us in PvE), being able to move while channeling seems more beneficial.

Edited May 2, 2015 by znihilist

[LunarAshes]

This revision of changes looks very on-par with the other classes in terms of utility and QoL without being overpowered or breaking away from the current concepts. I support this 100%.

[waterboytkd]

Snip

 

All those answers sound pretty reasonable and accurate. I agree that mobility is more important than movement control (roots), though I would be concerned with 6 seconds of MI immunity on predation, since it can go off every 20s.

 

To compare against other classes with MI immunity, Guards/Juggs can get 10s of it every 60s for 16% uptime, Shadows/Sins can get 2 seconds every 15 seconds (assuming generally accepted utility choices--it could be 2.5 seconds duration, or a longer cooldown, but that's generally considered poor utility choices for PvP) for 13.33% uptime, Scoundrels/Ops are a little harder to gauge because of the roll but it would be like 30% (but, it uses the roll, so they're not really attacking), and VGs/PTs can get 10s every 25s for a whopping 40% uptime.

 

So, one of those is largely considered OP, and I think coming anywhere near it is trying to fight broken with broken. That said, keep the uptime on MI immunity low enough, and I think we have a good number. 3 seconds of MI immunity on Pred activation is 15% uptime on MI immunity (considering a 20s cooldown). If we up the MI immunity time to 4s, but lose the extra 5 seconds of cooldown reduction, we end up with 40% uptime on speed boost, but only 16% uptime on MI immunity.

 

More thoughts on 30m root: when they first made Just Pursuit somewhat take-able, I tested it out quite a bit. It was fairly worthless (Combat/Carnage and Conc/Fury). At 10m, sure, we can root. Or we could just use Gore + DB and VT, or we could just Obliterate. Only Watch/Anni is really hurting at 10m, because reapplying Force Melt/Rend isn't the sexiest attack (but, they can Leap at the short range, and with a 12s cooldown). Full honesty: I feel like Incisor/Interceptor as it currently exists is better than Reining Reach + Just Pursuit.

 

That's why I was pushing the range up to 30 meters. Because then, the ability at least has a use. We'd still be spending 2 utilities on it, but a 30m root on a 10 second cooldown is decent. Really, I think I'd rather see TST/DST get the root, but that ability gets wordy if you want to apply the root to ONLY the target (not the others in the AoE), plus adds complications with Watch/Anni, which use it as part of their rotation. Also since it's impossible to take ALL the mobility utilities AND get the 30m root, I feel like this provides us with options. Want the second rootbreaker in Force Fade/Phantom? Then you have to give up the +30% speed on Tran/Pred plus group speed boost or give up the root on Throw.

 

Totally agree with your assessment of Force Camo finishing the cooldowns on Force Leap/Charge and TST/DST. I do think, though, that an ability to cool them down when exiting combat is great. It makes leveling and Dailies in PvE so much nicer, and it really helps keep up resources in PvP, where rotations don't really exist, and we're constantly entering and exiting combat.

 

But based off your feedback, I think the following should probably happen:

• Possibly change Ardor/Relentless to: Activating Transcendence/Predation purges you of all movement-impairment effects. Additionally, activating Transcendence/Predation grants you 4 seconds of Ardor/Relentless, making you immune to movement-impairment effects.
  
• Cut Jedi Commando/Sith Skirmisher
  
• Remove the following from Contemplation/Brooding: Reduces the cooldown of Awe/Intimidating Roar by 15 seconds.
  
• Add the following to Contemplation/Brooding: Exiting Combat reduces the active cooldown of Force Leap/Charge and Twin/Dual Sabre Throw by 100%.
  
• Possibly change Pulse/Strangulate: Reduces the cooldown of Force Stasis/Choke and Awe/Intimidating Roar by 15 seconds.
  
• Remove Debilitation/Overwhelm.
  
• Create a new Skillful utility, Nimble Strike/Ravager: Allows you to move while channeling Master Strike/Ravage.
  
• Possibly add Debilitate/Overwhelm to the Masterful tier to fill the hole.
  
• Remove Jedi Hospitaler/Sith Avenger.
  

 

This still leaves us with missing Incisor/Interceptor. A thought was to simply add it to Reining Reach/Maiming Reach, but I wonder if that's pushing the power level of utility. There's also not re-adding Debilitate/Overwhelm, though I like the idea of giving people options for how they want to use the utility (and giving them the option of taking 2 utilities for "Uber-Master Strike/Ravage").

 

Also, we have a hole in the Heroic tier. I would like it to be something that has very obvious use for PvE, especially Ops, since most utilities seem PvP driven. That would mean a utility that isn't DCD-based, since in Ops, the Sent/Mara shouldn't be getting attacked. Bleeding into the tank role has already been explored and dismissed. That leaves...? Some kind of healing? A boost to their group buff? It could skew dps targets, but what about a utility that reduced the Depressed/Satiated debuffs from Inspiration/Bloodthirst by half (to 150 seconds). Get two Sents/Maras in a group, both taking that utility, and you have twice the Inspiration/Bloodthirst (which seems like the exact thing Bioware was trying to quell when they instituted Depressed/Satiated).

[waterboytkd]

Just updated the original post. Of course, any further feedback is hugely appreciated, and we can only hope that this catches the eyes of someone.

 

A couple thoughts I had, and looking for feedback on:

 

• What if Reigning Reach/Maiming Reach were rolled into Just Pursuit/Inescapable (so that one Heroic utility increased the range of Crippling/Deadly Throw to 30m, reduced its cost to 0 focus/rage, and applied a 3s root)? Is that too good? Or does it make it more competitive against the likes of Transcendent Master/Apex Predator and Force Fade/Phantom? (Talking pretty much solely about PvP here, as roots in PvE is pretty pointless).
  
• If we did the above, is Incisor/Interceptor a good replacement in the Masterful tier? I've always felt it's kind of bland as far as Masterful utilities go.
  
• If we did the first bullet point, what if we bumped Zealous Ward/Blood Ward, which I worry is too good for Skillful tier, into the Masterful tier, and added Incisor/Interceptor to the Skillful hole, which I feel like is a good Skillful (whereas it's a bland Masterful).
  

 

[jauvtus]

Reigning Reach/Maiming Reach and Just Pursuit/Inescapable: I think either they shouldn't be merged, or if merged, remove the 0 cost stat, there are ppl who (will) call this Utility build OP (it isn't btw), let's give them less target (we aren't guardian/jugger copycats)

 

"If we did the first bullet point, what if we bumped Zealous Ward/Blood Ward, which I worry is too good for Skillful tier, into the Masterful tier, and added Incisor/Interceptor to the Skillful hole, which I feel like is a good Skillful (whereas it's a bland Masterful)."

 

Zealous Ward/Blood Ward should be Masterful imo, maybe it's too strong for Skillful (again guardians/juggs have heal on their CC breaker in Skillful, maybe it isn't that OP), then Incisor/Interceptor would make a nice Skillful

 

Also suggestion for missing heroic utility: Neutralize/Blackout: Further increases the melee and ranged accuracy loss granted by Pacify/Obfuscate by an additional 10% and makes Pacify/Obfuscate reduce the target's Force and Tech accuracy by 90% for 4 seconds

OR

not my idea, but i think it would be good for heroic: Hard-hitting Throw/Pulverizing Throw: When you activate Twin Saber Throw/Dual Saber Throw, it knocks back the targets if they are within 4 meters.

Edited May 2, 2015 by jauvtus

[waterboytkd]

snip

 

I've been thinking more about the utility array and how it seems like I have a lot of utilities that say "Additionally, [second effect]". I was worried that maybe I was pushing the envelope too far, but just speccing out different builds, I don't end up OP at all. I think the issue is that Sent/Mara have so little utility baseline in the class, which could be a relic of older design philosophy regarding a pure dps melee class.

 

It made me think that some of the utility in this tree should be baseline, which tones down some of the utilities, while also taking off the "must have" pressure.

 

One such change* was with Crippling Throw/Deadly Throw. At 10m, it's just not worth it as far as gap-closing is concerned. Only Watch/Anni might need it as a tool within 10m, but even they have Leap/Charge in that distance with a 12 second cooldown. Which makes me think, to keep this ability viable in PvP (and add some huge QoL in PvE dailies and leveling), that maybe Crippling/Deadly Throw should have a base range of 30m. Then, you delete Reining Reach/Maiming Reach AND remove the cost reduction from Just Pursuit/Inescapable. A 30m attack once every 10 seconds that does decent, but not great, damage and has some nice utility effects for 3 focus seems fair. Then a Heroic utility to add a root to it still seems fair, especially since it'd still cost 3 focus.

 

With that change, I do think I would definitely move Zealous Ward/Blood Ward up to the Masterful tier, then introduce Incisor/Interceptor in the Skillful tier.

 

The more I think about this knockback utility for TST/DST, Hard-Hitting Throw/Pulverizing Throw, the less problematic it seems, as long as it's just a knockback (no knockdown, no additional rooting). It's another movement-control ability, and it has the natural snare from TST/DST still. Not hugely necessary, but a nice little perk for throwing off focus fire, and has obvious uses in WZs.

 

*The other big change I would make to baseline abilities is to turn Transcendence/Predation into a pure mobility tool. I'd add the MI purge to it baseline, and probably remove the 10% melee/ranged defense boost, which may be a contentious change. Then, alter Ardor/Relentless so that it either: granted 4 seconds of MI immunity with Tran/Pred; OR, granted 3 seconds of MI immunity with Tran/Pred, and reduced the Tran/Pred cooldown by 5 seconds. It's close to the same amount of MI immune uptime (16% vs. 15%), but makes the MI purge available 20% more often and increases uptime on the speed boost by 10%.

 

I'll wait until tomorrow before I update the OP again, so we can talk about some of these ideas a bit more!

[znihilist]

I will give some feedback on the other stuff later, but I think we can compromise on the Predation immunity part.

 

How about instead of full movement immunity (as in roots/slows + physics) we make it just immune to roots and slows. Meaning you can still be Knocked back, still be vulnerable to Force push, Force Pull, and harpoon. With that exchange in mind you can increase the duration of immunity on roots and slows without breaking full balance on it.

[Joefjr]

Being able to channel MS is something that should be base class trainable at lvl 60.

[waterboytkd]

I will give some feedback on the other stuff later, but I think we can compromise on the Predation immunity part.

 

How about instead of full movement immunity (as in roots/slows + physics) we make it just immune to roots and slows. Meaning you can still be Knocked back, still be vulnerable to Force push, Force Pull, and harpoon. With that exchange in mind you can increase the duration of immunity on roots and slows without breaking full balance on it.

 

So, the way I had it written, it was only roots and slows. I didn't really think about it, but this game defines "movement-impairment" as roots and slows. The Guard/Jugg utility, True Harmony/Through Power, is only MI immunity, and doesn't affect knockbacks and harpoons.

 

That said, what kind of duration were you thinking? What's fair with a 20 or 25 second cooldown?

[waterboytkd]

Updated OP. Still, I would like to explore the immunity aspect of Ardor/Relentless some more to arrive at the correct power-level and balance.

 

Also, I look and Jedi Promulgator/Cloak of Annihilation and find it underwhelming. What if, instead of putting a damage debuff on Awe/Intimidating Roar, it gave the Sent/Mara some passive DR while stunned? Like, "Additionally, you reduce all damage taken by 30% while stunned."

 

This is a pretty strong effect, but it does cost us a Heroic utility. It combos well with Cloak of Carnage, but also works well without it (and vice versa). I just worry that, as it is now, Jedi Promulgator/Cloak of Annihilation bring very little to the table. Maybe I'm wrong and that damage debuff after Awe/Intimidating Roar is a lot stronger than I'm giving it credit for, but I'd definitely like to hear others' thoughts on it.

[znihilist]

Err double posted, check the next reply! Edited May 3, 2015 by znihilist

[znihilist]

So, the way I had it written, it was only roots and slows. I didn't really think about it, but this game defines "movement-impairment" as roots and slows. The Guard/Jugg utility, True Harmony/Through Power, is only MI immunity, and doesn't affect knockbacks and harpoons.

 

That said, what kind of duration were you thinking? What's fair with a 20 or 25 second cooldown?

 

Ahh you were using the correct definition! Anyway I am not really saying a different value would be fair, my point is then comparing up-time to HO is a bit unfair, since HO also offers immunity to physics. So as long as the buff I suggested to predation doesn't include immunity to physics it could allow a higher up-time. However, considering the currently suggested value I think that might very well be already fair.

 

Good job!

 

 

 

 

Updated OP. Still, I would like to explore the immunity aspect of Ardor/Relentless some more to arrive at the correct power-level and balance.

 

Also, I look and Jedi Promulgator/Cloak of Annihilation and find it underwhelming. What if, instead of putting a damage debuff on Awe/Intimidating Roar, it gave the Sent/Mara some passive DR while stunned? Like, "Additionally, you reduce all damage taken by 30% while stunned."

 

This is a pretty strong effect, but it does cost us a Heroic utility. It combos well with Cloak of Carnage, but also works well without it (and vice versa). I just worry that, as it is now, Jedi Promulgator/Cloak of Annihilation bring very little to the table. Maybe I'm wrong and that damage debuff after Awe/Intimidating Roar is a lot stronger than I'm giving it credit for, but I'd definitely like to hear others' thoughts on it.

 

If we get a 30% less damage when stunned, then only fair to lose Cloak of Pain while stunned (as a matter of principle and balance).

Edited May 3, 2015 by znihilist

[waterboytkd]

If we get a 30% less damage when stunned, then only fair to lose Cloak of Pain while stunned (as a matter of principle and balance).

 

That's probably true. 50% DR while stunned might be a bit much...

 

Any ideas for trying to make Jedi Promulgator/Cloak of Annihilation more desirable in that tier? Or is it good enough, you think?

Edited May 3, 2015 by waterboytkd

[znihilist]

That's probably true. 50% DR while stunned might be a bit much...

 

Any ideas for trying to make Jedi Promulgator/Cloak of Annihilation more desirable in that tier? Or is it good enough, you think?

 

10% damage reduction on everyone caught in mezz is very powerful on its own. At least for now I have nothing by this. Will try to squeeze another round later on.

[KaellSolaris]

Hi !

 

Just bumping up, because good thread have to be bump up !

 

By the way for your open slot in Masterful, this may be interesting :

Virtuous Call/Frenzied

 

Each time you use an attack who consumes Focus/Rage, you reduce the active cooldown of Valorous Call/Frenzy by 1 second. This effect cannot occur more than once every 3 seconds.

 

And, by the way, if Pulse/Strangulate also reduce Awe/Intimidating Roar Cooldown, his name shoul be change ( because Pulse/Strangulate also exist for Guardian/Juggernalt and they use the same utility as us, like it was the case when they change Defiance/Unyielding utility for Adamant/ Inexorable)

Edited May 7, 2015 by KaellSolaris

[sloasdaylight]

So let's see here…

 

AoE and single-target taunts, making tanks obsolete in PvP and sentinels obsolete in PvE. 30 meter zero cost root on a hilariously low cooldown…in a class that has a gap closer. Group buff that nearly doubles movement speed 50% of the time, for free and off the GCD. Pacify as a god cooldown (and a taunt). Saber Ward and Guarded buffed to be almost as good as new Pacify! Master Strike rooting and usable on the move (because reasons!).

 

Seems legit.

 

A guy can dream, can't he?

 

But yea, seriously, those changes would make the class into Gods.

[waterboytkd]

A guy can dream, can't he?

 

But yea, seriously, those changes would make the class into Gods.

 

KBN was taking like 11 utilities in his little rant there. List off that many utilities for any class and it sounds ridiculous.

 

That said, a lot of it has changed. Any move toward off-tanking has been removed. And Pacify has been left to simply be an anti-white damage ability. So I ask, when you say "those changes", do you mean what's currently in the OP, or just KBN's hyperbole?

[PallyHk]

These changes are much better than the dev combat team makes. Sadly I doub they would listen to feedback from people who know better than they do. It is a bad mix of "We dont give a crap, we do this for a paycheck" and "We still are the developers, so we are infallible and you just need to learn to play" .

[Bonzenaattori]

this is my feedback. I have a lot to say so I hope ur sitting down.

 

So I'll break this up.

 

 

Change Centering (level 10 passive): Activating an ability that spends focus, defeating opponents, and being dealt damage builds Centering. In addition, you build up to 30 Centering over the course of using Introspection. When 30 stacks of Centering are built, you become Centered, enabling the use of Zen or Inspiration.

Basically the change is that recieving damage is now a hardwired effect onto Centering Mastery.

Okay that's fine. I see no problem with this

 

Add Off-Hand Blocking (level 10 passive): Reduces the cooldown of Saber Ward by 60 seconds.

The name for this leaves much to be desired as this doesn't really achieve much. Now despite the fact this is a normal passive, I have to question why 60 seconds? Removing 1/3 of the active cooldown is a massive change which I think will do nothing but instigate an army of rampaging butthurt Guardians and Juggernauts.

For a sentinel's perspective, this simply reduces the effective time that you'll be under the mercy of luck.

I don't like this effect, although I wouldn't reject it for free either.

 

Remove Leg Slash (level 16 active) as a power.

Add Crippling Throw (level 16 active) as a power: Cooldown: 10 seconds; Focus: 3; Range: 30m; Hits the target for 2560-2778 damage, slowing its movement speed to 50% for 10 seconds, and reducing the healing it receives by 20% for 10 seconds.

Twin Saber Throw (level 51 active): Cooldown: 18s; Range: 30m; Throws both lightsabers in a straight line towards the target, dealing 1954-2119 weapon damage to all enemies directly in front of you up to 30 meters away. Affected enemies are slowed by 50% for 6 seconds. Generates 2 focus. Requires two lightsabers.

I put these two together for a specific purpose. This change in itself would raise a lot of eyebrows, and again, accomplishes absolutely nothing but enforces a broken math into the game. Simply put: "One lightsaber is greater than two."

You fail to justify why Crippling throw not only out-damages Twin Saber Throw, but also why it holds more utility in the aspect of debuffing a target, both in duration and it the number of debuffs. Sure, Twin Saber throw is an aoe. (albeit Linear style aoe), but it still falls short

It falls into the same trap which has led Sentinels to be somewhat weaker or lesser than Guardian's when it comes to the usage of two lightsabers over one.

I don't like this effect, even if the damage was to be respectively reduced. It makes 0 sense.

I would say however, that if you were to make it designed so that Sentinel's start with Crippling Throw, and then Twin Saber throw becomes a utility that not only boosts the base Crippling throw by it's damage increase (if we were to argue that throwing two lightsabers is significantly more damaging that throwing one), but also the 0 focus cost of Twin Saber throw makes for a grand design of seeing your Sentinel grow stronger, then that would be the best utility ever.

Then again, it would still be a nerf, with questionable justification.

Don't get me wrong, I loved Crippling throw, but making it a level 16 skill that not only out-damages twin saber throw but also debuffs the target's speed for longer (10 seconds vs 6) makes 0 sense.

 

 

Change Transcendence (level 22 active): Cooldown: 30 seconds; Purges you of all movement-impairment effects and increases your movement speed by 50%. Lasts 10 seconds.

Change Valorous Call (level 48 active): Let loose a valorous call, immediately building 30 stacks of Centering, and immediately finishing the cooldown on Transcendence.

What's with this sudden hard-on for Transcendence. The skill has no cooldown, no matter what way you look at this, it's a nerf. There is rarely a time when popping both Transcendence and Zen is necessary and if you do then, what exactly is the motive? Kite a juggernaut with Precision, Clashing blast, crippling throw, twin saber throw, dispatch?

I'm going to say this once, and only once. Trans as a non-Centering effect is POINTLESS unless they ALL become non-centering effects!

 

Skillful Utility

Jedi Enforcer: Increases the damage dealt by Rebuke by 15% and increases its duration by 4 seconds. Additionally, increases your damage reduction by 2%.

Rolling 2 utilities into one... I'd have no complaints

Nimble Strike: Allows Master Strike to be channeled while moving.

Please don't...

Fleetfooted: Increases your movement speed by 15%. Additionally, reduces the cooldown on Transcendence by 5 seconds.

Rather just roll the 15% into Ataru form, like they did to Shien form but, that's just me... I don't see why a Juyo or Shi-cho would care about this, when Concentration has Force Slow, and Watchman, USED TO have Inflammation.

In case you failed to notice the trend there, the lack of slows from Combat as a spec, made them design you to be innately faster.

Trailblazer: Cyclone Slash deals 25% more damage.

Burn in hell

Adamant: You generate 4 focus when stunned, immobilized, put to sleep, or knocked around. Additionally, the cooldown of Resolute is reduced by 30 seconds.

This sounds nice, resolute cooldown makes me feel like I'm loved

Watchguard: Reduces the cooldown of Force Kick by 2 seconds and Pacify by 15 seconds. Additionally, increases the range of Pacify to 10 meters.

Moving a Masterful into a Skillful... ...fair enough

Incisor: Force Leap, Force Melt, Clashing Blast, and Zealous Leap snare the target, reducing its movement speed by 50% for 6 seconds.

This is beyond stupid. I get my first utility at level 11, If i get this, I'd have to wait til im AT LEAST 24 to get at least 100% of the utilities' effect, for the other 2 specs, I'd have to wait til I'm 57, otherwise it's just effecting Force Leap.

It doesn't belong there, the level gap is far too large!

 

Masterful Utilities

Ardor: Activating Transcendence grants you 4 seconds of Ardor, granting you immunity to movement-impairment effects. POSSIBLY: OR, Activating Transcendence grants you 3 seconds of Ardor, granting you immunity to movement-impairment effects. Additionally, reduces the cooldown on Transcendence by 5 seconds

Ugh...

Pulse: Reduces the cooldown on Force Stasis and Awe by 15 seconds.

At least the utility has a good parallel of motive this time.

Defensive Roll: Reduces the damage taken from area effects by 30%. Additionally, increases internal and elemental damage reduction by 5%.

Could care less, this utility is garbage imo, and doesn't belong in Masterful. Move it down to Skillful, or you're just polishing a turd

Contemplation: Activating Introspection or exiting combat immediately builds 30 Centering. Additionally, exiting combat reduces the active cooldown of Force Leap and Twin Saber Throw by 100%.

Still underwhelming if you're going to take this path. Though I'd rather Guardian's keep their garbage passives and they shove that lightsaber where the force cannot push... ...anyway, only 2 effects out of 3.

It would be cooler if, exiting combat, or something gave you 15/30 stacks of centering. So you don't have to waste your time stacking the Centering in the first place. But that's just me

Jedi Crusader: While Rebuke is active, it generates 1 focus whenever you are attacked. This effect cannot occur more than once every 2 seconds. Additionally, allows Rebuke to be used while stunned.

This doesn't look like, sound like, or even feel like a Masterful utility. But at least there is relevance and consistency in the passive's effect.

Zealous Ward: Getting attacked while Saber Ward is active heals you for 3% of your maximum health. This effect cannot occur more than once every second.

Cute... I'd rather instead of the 60 second cooldown reduction, you rolled a secondary effect into this passive, where activating Zealous strike, strike and crippling throw would reduce the active duration of Saber Ward (or keep it as rebuke if you'd like) into this passive. But 3% heal is a buff that's super strong when you get the combination of effects you want in a fight

OPEN SLOT Possibly add Debilitate: Master Strike immobilizes the target for the duration of the ability.

Nimble Strike would defeat the purpose of this effect

 

Heroic Utilities

Enduring: Reduces the cooldown of Guarded by the Force by 30 seconds and increases its duration by 2 seconds.

Inevitable...

Just Pursuit: Crippling Throw immobilizes the target for 3 seconds.

Why would this be a heroic utility. I understand you most likely did this for comparitive effects between Guardian and Sentinel, but I feel utilities should be designed around making Jedi Knight abilities more unique towards a Sentinel's motivation. This is pointless, why would I care about 3 second immo, when it's a 10 second slow? On a level 16 skill at that!

Transcendent Master: The movement speed bonus of Transcendence is increased by 30%. Additionally, Transcendence applies Master's Speed to your other group members within 40 meters, increasing their movement speed by 80%. Lasts 10 seconds.

This sounds like a nerf to me

Jedi Promulgator: Increases the total time Rebuke can last by 15 seconds. Additionally, when the effect of Awe ends, the target is Awed for 6 seconds, reducing its damage dealt by 10%.

Is not a heroic utility. The awe effect sounds like something a tank should have.

Zen Master: Each time you consume a Zen charge, you heal yourself and each group member within 40 meters for 1% of their maximum health.

No comment

Force Fade: Increases the duration of Force Camouflage by 2 seconds and further increases the movement speed bonus of Force Camouflage by 20%. Additionally, activating Force Camouflage removes all cleansable effects.

Why a Heroic utility? Although rolling the two effects is nice.

OPEN SLOT Possibly add Hard-Hitting Throw: Twin Saber Throw knocks back any target within 4 meters.

Please no.

 

Overall: This... ...setup is all over the place. It doesn't really design an innate strategy within a Sentinel's skillset, and just makes their skills throw them all over the place. What exactly are you trying to accomplish with these? Some of them are nice, mostly the ones that already exist but are condensed down from 2-3 utilities into 1. But that doesn't really fix the problem for Sentinels. Anyway, nice creativity. I wouldn't reject any of these if they were to happen mind you.

Keep it up

[waterboytkd]

snip

 

Some explanations (and if I come across as dismissive, I apologize; it's not my intent, but text can have trouble conveying tone, and my intent is for this tone to be one of polite discussion):

 

Off-Hand Blocking was to give us a 1-minute, 2-minute, and 3 minute DCD again. When GbtF/UR went up to 3 minutes, we lots our 2 minute DCD. This gives us that back. And combined with Zealous Ward/Blood Ward being more accessible, it gives us the potential for a bit more durability.

 

I think your confusion between Crippling/Deadly Throw and TST/DST is that the former COSTS 3 focus/rage, while the latter BUILDS 2 focus/rage. Because the former costs us, it gets to deal more damage. As for flavor...flavor can always be adjusted. I'm more concerned with getting workable mechanics first.

 

I don't really understand the vulgar comment about Transcendence. A lot of people have been asking to get it off the Centering/Fury system for a while now. As for needing to pop both simultaneously, it's a constant in PvP, where mobility, especially for an mdps class, is life. As for it being a nerf: if you compare it to just spamming Tran/Pred on live with live's Fleetfooted/Unbound, then yeah, it's not as powerful. But it does allow us to actually use Zen/Berserk, which is a big deal for 2 of the disciplines (Combat/Carnage can get away with mostly skipping on Zen/Berserk). Also, the base effect purges MI, making this a great mobility tool that doesn't require utility point expenditures, but utility points can make it even better.

 

As for the Utilities:

Nimble Strike and Debilitate: allowing channeling on the move is a huge QoL thing for PvE. Rooting has huge PvP benefits. I was trying to offer real options, which is the intent of utilities in the first place.

 

Fleetfooted: Sents/Maras rely on being mobile in PvP. Giving the whole AC access to 15% speed boost is a nice little perk. Slows tend to do less in PvP, what with the plethora of speed boosts and MI purges/immunity in all the ACs' utilities trees.

 

Trailblazer: I'm not sure why the vitriol. It's a utility that currently exists and serves a purpose (while leveling, even doing Dailies). I do think it's pretty meh and underwhelming, but pretty much every AC has this AoE booster (that, admittedly, feels like a throw-away slot) in the Skillful.

 

Incisor: Again, I don't get the vehemence of your reaction, as this utility already exists. I just moved it into Skillful to make it more accessible, especially since it's not that powerful, especially considering 2 out of 3 disciplines don't get full functionality until level 57. And I do agree, the level gap is awkward, but it's power-level doesn't justify it being Masterful or, god-forbid, Heroic. As for changing the triggering abilities to make it fully functional sooner, the issue crops up that you start to unbalance the disciplines in how many abilities they have in this utility (ie adding Force Scream to make it more accessible gives Fury 3 rotational abilities for this utility, while the others still only have 2). If you have a good idea for what abilities it should be, I'd love to hear them. Currently, I think this awkwardness is the best we can get in terms of functionality and balance, together.

 

Ardor and Transcendent Master: I assume you don't like these because you don't like the basic Tran/Pred change, and as these build on it, you don't like these either. But, within the framework of Tran/Pred I presented, I think their pretty decent, and can ever return us to current functionality (or very close to it) while still allowing us to actually use or core ability that our rotations are designed around (Zen/Berserk).

 

Defensive Roll: I actually think adding the elemental/internal resistance to the AoE reduction (which currently exists on Live at Masterful), you actually upgrade this to a Masterful power level. It gives us great DR versus AoEs, and makes us more resistant to most (all?) DoTs, too. Plus, it's already coming in 3.2.1.

 

Contemplation: I'm confused by your comments. I have exiting combat AND activating Introspection IMMEDIATELY building 30 stacks of Centering. You think it'd be better if it only built 15? And I think getting 30 Centering/Fury quickly and more frequently in PvP will be a huge QoL thing for all 3 disciplines, but especially Conc/Fury, which relies on it for resource-management, and Watch/Anni, which has issues with ramp up time in PvP to begin with.

 

Jedi Crusader: The first part is currently Skillful, true. The second part is Masterful, and very much so belongs in that tier. Gaining 20% DR plus some retributive damage in response to being stunned is actually quite good in PvP.

 

Zealous Ward: I'm not really following your response to this. This utility exists currently, and at Heroic tier. I just brought it down a tier to make it more accessible/take some pressure off the Heroic tier. And combined with the baseline passive of a 60s reduction on Saber Ward's CD, I think this is still quite powerful. The issue I have with activating those abilities to reduce a cooldown (whether Rebuke or Saber Ward) is that, outside of Zealous Strike, those abilities are situational. There's a reason so few people take Jedi Promulgator now--it really doesn't do much. Considering only Zealous Strike sees regular use, it might as well say "reduce cooldown by 12 seconds, since you can only fit 4 Zealous Strikes in this window". I guess it would be more if Saber Ward, but again, eh. Plus, the utility gets worse if you're out of combat for some reason (waiting for enemies to spawn/return). Flat CD reductions are much more attractive.

 

Enduring: it's already coming in 3.2.1.

 

Just Pursuit: a 30m root for 3 seconds is very powerful as a gap closer. Giving us a second 30m gap closer should be done in the Heroic tier, not lower. As for it being pointless because it already slows, there's a lot of history with pre-3.0 Combat/Carnage's Displacement that is contrary to that belief. Also, the current version on live is actually worse (only 10m, though "spammable" against different opponents), and costs 2 utilities, yet people take it because gap closing can be a very big deal.

 

Jedi Promulgator: I won't lie that I have reservations about this. But a flat 15 second increase in Rebuke's max duration is actually quite powerful, boosting that ability to a possible 75% uptime. Especially if taken in conjunction with Jedi Enforce, making it more likely to actually be able to max the duration. As for the Awe effect, there's only so much mobility you can put in a utility tree, and you can't put straight rotational damage boosts in there. At some point, for a pure dps class, gaining utility is going to mean some light bleeding into other roles. We already see it with Watch/Anni group heals, and Pacify being a debuff.

 

Force Fade: Heroic because it represents the second MI purge, well, cleanse in this case. Getting a second one should absolutely cost us a Heroic.

 

Hard-Hitting Throw: This is an idea that's been floating around the forums; it's not my creation. I'm not attached to it, but it's the only suggestion for the open Heroic slot so far that seems Heroic-appropriate.

 

In response to your conclusion, if you look at ALL the utilities at the same time, sure, it seems all over the place. That's because there are builds within the trees to gain certain things, be it more mobility, tankiness/DR, healing, QoL for Dailies/leveling/PvP, etc. Remember, you only get 7 utilities. There are builds for PvP, obviously, but also the various forms of PvE, too, including Ops, which is where the current utility setup for Sents/Maras seems woefully lacking.

 

I think "all over the place" is actually good for utilties. Having multiple themes, or even multiple routes within themes, means that we have actual choice and customization with the utilities, which is the original intent of them. Currently, sadly, our utilities for Sent/Mara feel forced because required abilities have been put in the utilities (like Defensive Forms, soon to be Stoic/Brazen) and many related abilities are put in the same tiers (like all our mobility tools being Heroic) which, the higher tier you get, actually restricts our choices considerably.

 

But thanks for the encouragement!

[Jboath]

Force camo utilities need to be combined into a heroic utility.

 

Leg slash utilities need to be combined into a heroic utility.

 

Guarded by the Force utilities need to be combined into a masterful utility.

 

The new concentration cc immunity needs to be spread across the other two specs.

 

The masterful utility of meditating to stack centering needs to be baseline thus being able to utilize the guarded and saber ward utilities. I just found out commando's can run around between battles casting med shot to build supercharged celerity which is yet another slap sents are supposed to spend a masterful utility to build centering before a fight via meditate.

 

And the obvious defensive forms as baseline curently enjoying a thorough reaming in the new dev post.