So Bioware, about people bypassing the locked part on Ziost to fight the OP Boss etc.

[EvilTazz]

And hey, look at that, I guess we both found out how serious they are about it.

 

Yes, we've both learned our lesson the hard way. If another exploit comes around, will I taunt the people who've done it knowing I partook in an exploit before? No, that would be a bit hypocritical, wouldn't it.

[The_Wulff]

Because they completely mishandled ravagers and it was far too much work to do the type of investigation and gear removal for that compared to this and also it was just too wide spread.

 

This time they caught it early and acted promptly and one would hope the ravagers exploiters caught this time will be out for weeks minimum per their warning at ravagers.

 

I think THIS is how they wanted to handle ravagers but it just couldn't be done thus they are prompt on to issues now.

 

One other gripe I have ... they can patch the speeder, revan and whatever the other one was quick enough but not this exploit? Makes you think they leave it there as a carrot because they want to ban people heh.

I agree with most of this Except the carrot

I touched on this issue earlier and no one really picked up on it ...

 

Would it be that hard for Bioware to improve this communication? A simple login screen message stating there is a current important in game issue and people need to please read ( and links to the first BW post in this thread ) or something involving the ticket system with a green popup you get when you get a reply stating the issue and to not accept any summons etc. to Ziost and/or to quit group etc. if they do find themselves summoned to the area.

 

My main issue is the whole summon thing with guilds. It is quite easy for someone happily playing away to not know anything about this exploit and receive a summons, accept it, do the content, get banned and have no idea why as it seemed perfectly logical.

 

Whilst I'm the first to want to see cheaters punished ( hence the title in my sig that was awarded to me during Ravagergate ) I do feel I am fair in my views and in this case I can see innocent people getting punished ( when you pick up loot without killing a boss there is no innocent party involved, no one can claim that seemed 'normal' ).

 

Bioware are now stepping up punishment for people ignoring their warnings but they've not actually posted anywhere where EVERYONE can see to receive said warning.

 

Communication needs to improve.

I also agree with the sentiment of this however the information is not hidden. It would be nice if there was an active news feed for the game to let people know that there is something going on but at what point to you put responsibility on the gamer to be informed? BioWare did let us know as soon as they knew, they let us know as soon as they had a plan and they updated us as to what happened to our oppositional defiant friends that had to push the limits of what would be done.

 

I guess my questions to you are when does it become the gamers responsibility to be informed on what is going on and if people genuinely did get tricked into 2nd part of Ziost why didn't they report the issue them selves?

 

MeNaCe-NZ I honestly like your question it makes me think

[Jimmajamma]

Why be up in arms at all?

 

My issue is with everyone applauding BW. They took swift action this time which was good of them. Kudos for that.

 

Problem is:

a) They are trying to make up for how bad they handled the last one. Let's see how they handle the next big exploit before creaming our pants with excitement that BW is actually policing the community. Next big exploit offenders won't be nearly as flagrant about it, so I would like to see how quickly BW acts when it isn't being thrown in their face.

 

b) It is typical laziness on their part. It was a problem they knew about and just chose to neglect. The content shouldn't have been spawned, knowing that someone got in when they shoudn't have. It was basically entrapment. If they know anything about the serious raiders in the game, they are always trying to do things first. Pretty sure it was known that there were 2 spawned bosses in that area. It was also known that someone discovered a way into that area. Putting two and two together, they should have just taken the bosses out. It's laziness and BW demonstrates it time and time again.

Edited April 30, 2015 by Jimmajamma

[The_Wulff]

My issue is with everyone applauding BW. They took swift action this time which was good of them. Kudos for that.

 

Problem is:

a) They are trying to make up for how bad they handled the last one. Let's see how they handle the next big exploit before creaming our pants with excitement that BW is actually policing the community. Next big exploit offenders won't be nearly as flagrant about it, so I would like to see how quickly BW acts when it isn't being thrown in their face.

I don't see an issue with them trying to make up for a past issue. That is how relationships are built, by earning trust and showing consistency.

b) It is typical laziness on their part. It was a problem they knew about and just chose to neglect. The content shouldn't have been spawned, knowing that someone got in when they shoudn't have. It was basically entrapment. If they know anything about the serious raiders in the game, they are always trying to do things first. Pretty sure it was known that there were 2 spawned bosses in that area. It was also known that someone discovered a way into that area. Putting two and two together, they should have just taken the bosses out. It's laziness and BW demonstrates it time and time again.

While I am not a professional coder I do know that it takes time for patches to happen. The bug patch we got today started Tuesday. For them to patch the hole for the area further than it has been would take a bunch of man hours that are better spent getting the next patch finalized rather than keeping people out of an area that will become available in 4 days. The rules and blockades already in place will do well enough to deter others.

[MeNaCe-NZ]

I agree with most of this Except the carrot

 

I also agree with the sentiment of this however the information is not hidden. It would be nice if there was an active news feed for the game to let people know that there is something going on but at what point to you put responsibility on the gamer to be informed? BioWare did let us know as soon as they knew, they let us know as soon as they had a plan and they updated us as to what happened to our oppositional defiant friends that had to push the limits of what would be done.

 

I guess my questions to you are when does it become the gamers responsibility to be informed on what is going on and if people genuinely did get tricked into 2nd part of Ziost why didn't they report the issue them selves?

 

MeNaCe-NZ I honestly like your question it makes me think

 

I guess it's at what point you find it odd to report to begin with. Get summoned, kill boss, get loot, leave. Seems normal to me, nothing to report. If I never read forums ( and most don't ) I ideally wouldn't know, especially if I'm a serial leveler as many are and don't spend all my time in chat. The only way then you would know something was fishy about it was when you got banend and thus still can't complain.

 

I imagine this thread may grow over the weekend as people get back from there bans to complain.

 

Whilst I'm not trying to make excuses for the guilty in this instance I can see innocent punished.

 

As to how they communicate it's already there "The servers will be down blah blah etc. go to here for patch notes or read this for more info" happens every couple of weeks on the login splash screen.

 

If they at least put that for SERIOUS issues like this that could lead to people getting inadvertantly banned and losing game time they paid for then no one could claim innocence really, their bad luck if they didn't bother to read a warning that is there for everyone to see which is not the case for the forums.

 

Now I do also only claim those who might be summoned as possibly innocent, any one who manually entered this area is guilty imo and they know it.

[Infernixx]

I can pretty much guarantee that not a single person who helped down the ziost WB was ignorant of what was going on.

[Kuroyo]

Hey folks,

 

I wanted to give you an update on the Ziost exploit that was discovered. As mentioned in my post yesterday, we took action against those players who had participated and we are continuing to monitor for additional players throughout May 4th. In doing so, we have discovered more players who were exploiting last night. Since we had previously expressed that participation was considered an exploit, we are going to be increasing the action taken against these players. Those players will all be receiving a minimum of a one week suspension, along with the other actions which we listed yesterday.

 

To reiterate, we will continue to monitor this issue throughout the morning of May 4th when the area goes live. Action will continue against players who participate in this exploit. Thank you all for helping us to keep The Old Republic a fun and fair place for everyone.

 

-eric

 

In a game that encourages and rewards platforming and exploration, can you explain the design decision of poorly blocking of an area from access rather than inserting some mechanics that would prevent the bosses from being defeated? It seems like a no brainier.

 

If you truly didn't want this content defeated before a certain date, why did you pick this design? Why not an event trigger or a patch?

 

We've been through this before with Ilum. Players were going to the planet before lvl 50 and Bioware (in a poorly worded exchange) was interpreted as threatening bans to any low level players who visited the planet for breaking the economy. Veteran MMO'ers were somewhat incredulous at the thought of doing that as a cherished part of MMO play is exploring a world, etc. (Bioware later clarified that major bans were only against people who were "systematically and repeatedly looting containers".)

 

The spawn rate of chests on Ilum was nerfed, nasty mobs added around them to discourage underleveled players, and BioWare vowed to adjust Ilum "in the near future" to "discourage" exploits. For now, though, the planet remains open to anyone who wishes to travel there." http://www.eurogamer.net/articles/2012-01-03-bioware-explains-recent-spate-of-swtor-bans

 

But what happened to the promise of philosophy of "d'iscouraging' exploits"? No, not every exploit can be predicted, but you knew this was coming from the PTS.

 

--

kuroyo

[Anaesha]

In a game that encourages and rewards platforming and exploration, can you explain the design decision of poorly blocking of an area from access rather than inserting some mechanics that would prevent the bosses from being defeated? It seems like a no brainier.

 

If you truly didn't want this content defeated before a certain date, why did you pick this design? Why not an event trigger or a patch?

 

We've been through this before with Ilum. Players were going to the planet before lvl 50 and Bioware (in a poorly worded exchange) was interpreted as threatening bans to any low level players who visited the planet for breaking the economy. Veteran MMO'ers were somewhat incredulous at the thought of doing that as a cherished part of MMO play is exploring a world, etc. (Bioware later clarified that major bans were only against people who were "systematically and repeatedly looting containers".)

 

The spawn rate of chests on Ilum was nerfed, nasty mobs added around them to discourage underleveled players, and BioWare vowed to adjust Ilum "in the near future" to "discourage" exploits. For now, though, the planet remains open to anyone who wishes to travel there." http://www.eurogamer.net/articles/2012-01-03-bioware-explains-recent-spate-of-swtor-bans

 

But what happened to the promise of philosophy of "d'iscouraging' exploits"? No, not every exploit can be predicted, but you knew this was coming from the PTS.

 

--

kuroyo

 

They knew of ONE way to get into the area from PTS and FIXED that this is a NEW one that they didn't know about.

[Jimmajamma]

I don't see an issue with them trying to make up for a past issue. That is how relationships are built, by earning trust and showing consistency.

 

They have yet to be consistent. They deserve no praise. Like I said, if they handle punishments for the next big exploit in a similar fashion, I'll stick a foot in the hottub. Until then, I am skeptical. They've done it wrong a lot more than they have done it right.

[Grayseven]

Battle of Ilum in the caves there is a hidden area that does not appear on map. Inside is a chest, items needed for bonus boss, and various other things.

 

And again for people summoned to the area they would have even less knowledge.

 

Is there a big freaking wall that blocks that cave off? No, there isn't. It isn't blocked in any way, shape or form. Being, "not on the map" isn't hiding it...there are a lot of things not on the maps...but it is in no way blatantly blocked from access that you have to work to find a loophole to get in.

 

Again, excuses and failed "examples".

[Kuroyo]

They knew of ONE way to get into the area from PTS and FIXED that this is a NEW one that they didn't know about.

 

Precisely. One cannot predict that a player will find a way over terrain. (As I mentioned, it is a time honored MMO tradition and to go explore hard to reach places. Furthermore this tradition has always been an integral part of SWTOR.)

 

All the more reason to come up with a better design for securing the content than using an a terrain based blocking system. One can imagine the number of other options that could have been chosen: a debuff, an event timer; an exhaustion zone, patch the content in at a later time.

 

My question was not really about the means, but about the process and the consequences. We've been down this path time and time before and they promised they would design smarter in the past.

 

Is the uproar, the ill will, the finger pointing, bans, etc.. caused by that one very lazy design choice worth the time it would have taken to design it right?

[Ratajack]

Precisely. One cannot predict that a player will find a way over terrain. (As I mentioned, it is a time honored MMO tradition and to go explore hard to reach places. Furthermore this tradition has always been an integral part of SWTOR.)

 

All the more reason to come up with a better design for securing the content than using an a terrain based blocking system. One can imagine the number of other options that could have been chosen: a debuff, an event timer; an exhaustion zone, patch the content in at a later time.

 

My question was not really about the means, but about the process and the consequences. We've been down this path time and time before and they promised they would design smarter in the past.

 

Is the uproar, the ill will, the finger pointing, bans, etc.. caused by that one very lazy design choice worth the time it would have taken to design it right?

 

At what point should players take responsibility for THEIR ACTIONS?

 

It is not up to BW to design a "foolproof" system. They fixed an exploit and the cheaters who could not wait less than a week found a second. Maybe next time when there is content not meant to be accessed before a set date, those cheaters will actually wait til it is officially released to access that content.

[Anaesha]

At what point should players take responsibility for THEIR ACTIONS?

 

It is not up to BW to design a "foolproof" system. They fixed an exploit and the cheaters who could not wait less than a week found a second. Maybe next time when there is content not meant to be accessed before a set date, those cheaters will actually wait til it is officially released to access that content.

 

It's rare for you and I to see eye to eye on subjects but in this we do.

 

It isn't up to BW to design a fool proof way to keep players out of an area. If they can't wait for the content to be unlocked and actively look for a way around it then they are willingly cheating the system and the people who are willing to wait for the content to be unlocked and the cheaters deserve what they get.

 

Laws and Rules are put in place for a reason those who break them should be held accountable to those laws and rules be it a game or in the real world.

[ObiRadd]

Hey folks,

 

I wanted to give you an update on the Ziost exploit that was discovered. As mentioned in my post yesterday, we took action against those players who had participated and we are continuing to monitor for additional players throughout May 4th. In doing so, we have discovered more players who were exploiting last night. Since we had previously expressed that participation was considered an exploit, we are going to be increasing the action taken against these players. Those players will all be receiving a minimum of a one week suspension, along with the other actions which we listed yesterday.

 

To reiterate, we will continue to monitor this issue throughout the morning of May 4th when the area goes live. Action will continue against players who participate in this exploit. Thank you all for helping us to keep The Old Republic a fun and fair place for everyone.

 

-eric

 

Thank you for the prompt response and just actions on this Eric..

 

I do have a follow up question though. On behalf of all us explorers. This game often rewards explorers for getting into hard to get areas. I want to explore the hard to get to places on Ziost but I am a little concerned that If I accidentally find the [locked] area I might get into trouble..

 

Is this a place where we can only get there through underhanded means? and if it is gotten via a clicky or platforming can we be assured we won't have our accounts have actions take against so long as we do not engage the monsters?

[Infernixx]

Precisely. One cannot predict that a player will find a way over terrain. (As I mentioned, it is a time honored MMO tradition and to go explore hard to reach places. Furthermore this tradition has always been an integral part of SWTOR.)

 

All the more reason to come up with a better design for securing the content than using an a terrain based blocking system. One can imagine the number of other options that could have been chosen: a debuff, an event timer; an exhaustion zone, patch the content in at a later time.

 

My question was not really about the means, but about the process and the consequences. We've been down this path time and time before and they promised they would design smarter in the past.

 

Is the uproar, the ill will, the finger pointing, bans, etc.. caused by that one very lazy design choice worth the time it would have taken to design it right?

 

"Well, if they didn't want me breaking into their house, they should have had a better security system."

[Barrena]

I have regained so much trust and faith in you bioware for how you are handling this, keep up the good work!

[The_Wulff]

Thank you for the prompt response and just actions on this Eric..

 

I do have a follow up question though. On behalf of all us explorers. This game often rewards explorers for getting into hard to get areas. I want to explore the hard to get to places on Ziost but I am a little concerned that If I accidentally find the [locked] area I might get into trouble..

 

Is this a place where we can only get there through underhanded means? and if it is gotten via a clicky or platforming can we be assured we won't have our accounts have actions take against so long as we do not engage the monsters?

 

I'd say if you must explore, explore on the side of safety on Monday after the area has been unlocked so if you do fall in you won't be accused of exploiting.

[Kuroyo]

At what point should players take responsibility for THEIR ACTIONS?

They fixed an exploit and the cheaters who could not wait less than a week found a second. Maybe next time when there is content not meant to be accessed before a set date, those cheaters will actually wait til it is officially released to access that content.

 

Clearly those who have accessed the content before it was officially opened are being made responsible for them through the punishments meted out by Bioware.

 

But to turn the question around, at what point should game designers take responsibility for their actions?

 

They were not transparent about the release of Ziost content. There are mixed messages from Bioware about the release of content and these messages have only been transmitted over forum posts. They even had to release a statement several hours into the patch being deployed saying that the blocked off area was "not a bug"

http://www.swtor.com/community/showthread.php?p=8162140#edit8162140

 

And it wasn't until the following evening that killing things in the blocked off area was declared "an exploit"

http://www.swtor.com/community/showthread.php?p=8164319&posted=1#post8164319

 

Insofar as actual cheats and exploits, players should be held accountable and punishments should fit the wrongdoings. I have not called for an absolution of players who have "cheated." Take the gear, the lockouts, and the achievements away.

 

My point is to remind Bioware has a history of this and they are not a blameless party in this situation. There is a history and promises of less "exploitable" design that we are clearly not seeing any fruits of those promises.

 

To use one of these cheesy analogies that get bandied about when these things happen: Punish the child for eating the cupcake that was put on the high shelf of the pantry and meant for dinner, but maybe you should also reconsider where/how you hide them.

[Infernixx]

Clearly those who have accessed the content before it was officially opened are being made responsible for them through the punishments meted out by Bioware.

 

But to turn the question around, at what point should game designers take responsibility for their actions?

 

They were not transparent about the release of Ziost content. There are mixed messages from Bioware about the release of content and these messages have only been transmitted over forum posts. They even had to release a statement several hours into the patch being deployed saying that the blocked off area was "not a bug"

http://www.swtor.com/community/showthread.php?p=8162140#edit8162140

 

And it wasn't until the following evening that killing things in the blocked off area was declared "an exploit"

http://www.swtor.com/community/showthread.php?p=8164319&posted=1#post8164319

 

Insofar as actual cheats and exploits, players should be held accountable and punishments should fit the wrongdoings. I have not called for an absolution of players who have "cheated." Take the gear, the lockouts, and the achievements away.

 

My point is to remind Bioware has a history of this and they are not a blameless party in this situation. There is a history and promises of less "exploitable" design that we are clearly not seeing any fruits of those promises.

 

To use one of these cheesy analogies that get bandied about when these things happen: Punish the child for eating the cupcake that was put on the high shelf of the pantry and meant for dinner, but maybe you should also reconsider where/how you hide them.

 

"If she didn't want me stealing her purse, she should have held onto it a lot harder."

[DarthDymond]

"Well, if they didn't want me getting into their house, they should have had a stronger lock on the door."

"If she didn't want me stealing her purse, she should have held onto it a lot harder."

Oh boy. Last time around, didn't this all devolve into a full on "She was asking for it - you saw the way she was dressed" analogy?

 

It was way, way too disturbing to see people seriously advancing that position.

[Infernixx]

Oh boy. Last time around, didn't this all devolve into a full on "She was asking for it - you saw the way she was dressed" analogy?

 

It was way, way too disturbing to see people seriously advancing that position.

 

They do seem to be intent on focusing on how it should have been harder for them to get where they weren't supposed to be in the first place.

[Grayseven]

If EA/BW does something like the Ziost locked area again, I wonder how hard it would be to have the area an exhaustion zone until it is unlocked. Something they could turn off without a patch...

 

I mean, since it's obviously not the fault of the players going into areas they aren't intended to go into before they are intended to be able to go in and all...

 

I can't understand how people can be stupid enough to still go in after the repeated warnings though. It boggles...

[Ratajack]

Clearly those who have accessed the content before it was officially opened are being made responsible for them through the punishments meted out by Bioware.

 

But to turn the question around, at what point should game designers take responsibility for their actions?

 

They were not transparent about the release of Ziost content. There are mixed messages from Bioware about the release of content and these messages have only been transmitted over forum posts. They even had to release a statement several hours into the patch being deployed saying that the blocked off area was "not a bug"

http://www.swtor.com/community/showthread.php?p=8162140#edit8162140

 

And it wasn't until the following evening that killing things in the blocked off area was declared "an exploit"

http://www.swtor.com/community/showthread.php?p=8164319&posted=1#post8164319

 

Insofar as actual cheats and exploits, players should be held accountable and punishments should fit the wrongdoings. I have not called for an absolution of players who have "cheated." Take the gear, the lockouts, and the achievements away.

 

My point is to remind Bioware has a history of this and they are not a blameless party in this situation. There is a history and promises of less "exploitable" design that we are clearly not seeing any fruits of those promises.

 

To use one of these cheesy analogies that get bandied about when these things happen: Punish the child for eating the cupcake that was put on the high shelf of the pantry and meant for dinner, but maybe you should also reconsider where/how you hide them.

 

Maybe I should have asked "At what point do we stop looking for ways and excuses to blame everyone BUT those guilty of exploiting or otherwise breaking the rules?"

 

I see far too many posts attempting to blame BW when ultimately it is up the player and their integrity to not put themselves into a position which would require BW to take punitive action. Apparently, though, it is far easier for the guilty to take the Han Solo and Lando Calrissian approach and claim "It's not my fault."

 

Did BW do everything a reasonable person would expect in this situation? IMO, they did. They were advised of an exploit and fixed it. Was there a second exploitable way to get into the area that they missed and that no one reported? Yes. I do not expect every possible scenario to be caught by the devs. I DO, however, expect a certain level of integrity from the player base, as naive as that may be.

 

It is my understanding that BW confirmed that it was not a bug and that the area in question was not meant to be accessible. It is also my understanding that chat on most servers was full of people stating that BW had given confirmation that it was not a bug. At that point, I would expect that any reasonable gamer with any sense of integrity would wait until the area was officially released and not to use any exploitative means to gain access to that area. Those that chose to exploit and enter the restricted area deserve every bit of whatever action BW decides to take against them, IMO.

[MeNaCe-NZ]

They do seem to be intent on focusing on how it should have been harder for them to get where they weren't supposed to be in the first place.

 

Heh it's almost funny to see you on the side criticising those trying to defend the exploit this time.

[MeNaCe-NZ]

If EA/BW does something like the Ziost locked area again, I wonder how hard it would be to have the area an exhaustion zone until it is unlocked. Something they could turn off without a patch...

 

I mean, since it's obviously not the fault of the players going into areas they aren't intended to go into before they are intended to be able to go in and all...

 

I can't understand how people can be stupid enough to still go in after the repeated warnings though. It boggles...

 

They don't read forums?

 

I would assume it's all over in game chat now ( I tend to avoid fleet now I have a stronghold so wouldn't know ) but would you know much about it otherwise? Within an hour or so of logging in had you received a summon before you'd even got to that point of Ziost?

I think people forget more casual players play the game than hard core players so many are in no rush to get to Ziost to even realise there was a locked area.

 

Again not making excuses, just playing a bit of devil's advocate in this instance since their is a case to it ( unlike Ravagers, guilty was guilty and anyone who did it was guilty in that case ).