Pyrotech Powertech PvP strategy

[LtBombshell]

I recently switched from Advanced Prototype to Pyrotech because I was bored of the AP rotation and so far I am loving it. The guide on Dulfy helped a ton but unfortunately it only applies to PvE. So my question is this: what is the best strategy for Pyrotech in PvP? Because I see 2 different ways of playing:

 

1. Ruffian/Lethality style: what I mean by this is I could go around double dotting everyone with Scorch and Incendiary Missle. Then, I "combo off" on an unsuspecting target with Flaming Fist -> Rail Shot -> Flame Bust -> Immolate -> Flame Burst -> Flame Thrower.
   
2. Single target style: pick a target and use the PvE rotation suggested in the Dulfy guide on the target.
   

 

Which one generates the highest DPS? Scorch is a 7k DoT, and Incendiary Missile is a 3k DoT (I think? I can't remember), so if I DoT as many enemies as possible before starting a single target rotation, there's a lot of "ambient" damage. Do I do more damage over the same amount of time it would take to double DoT as many enemies as possible and then use a single target rotation on one of them if I just use the Dulfy rotation on each target?

[Aetideus]

I recently switched from Advanced Prototype to Pyrotech because I was bored of the AP rotation and so far I am loving it. The guide on Dulfy helped a ton but unfortunately it only applies to PvE. So my question is this: what is the best strategy for Pyrotech in PvP? Because I see 2 different ways of playing:

 

1. Ruffian/Lethality style: what I mean by this is I could go around double dotting everyone with Scorch and Incendiary Missle. Then, I "combo off" on an unsuspecting target with Flaming Fist -> Rail Shot -> Flame Bust -> Immolate -> Flame Burst -> Flame Thrower.
   
2. Single target style: pick a target and use the PvE rotation suggested in the Dulfy guide on the target.
   

 

Which one generates the highest DPS? Scorch is a 7k DoT, and Incendiary Missile is a 3k DoT (I think? I can't remember), so if I DoT as many enemies as possible before starting a single target rotation, there's a lot of "ambient" damage. Do I do more damage over the same amount of time it would take to double DoT as many enemies as possible and then use a single target rotation on one of them if I just use the Dulfy rotation on each target?

 

Switched due to tedious rotation and insufficient dcds too.

Flame fist root is very effective against stealth and Pyro is not targeted in arenas.

For regs using the following (preload Superheated, Flame burst proc), IM to healer and tank, HO, Scorch, (Flame Sweep/aoe stun) Superheated, Flame Fist-RS-Imolate comb if feasible, Flame sweep x3. Pre Dot more.

Edited April 11, 2015 by Aetideus

[Armadyil]

1. Ruffian/Lethality style: what I mean by this is I could go around double dotting everyone with Scorch and Incendiary Missle. Then, I "combo off" on an unsuspecting target with Flaming Fist -> Rail Shot -> Flame Bust -> Immolate -> Flame Burst -> Flame Thrower.
   
2. Single target style: pick a target and use the PvE rotation suggested in the Dulfy guide on the target.
   

 

I don't know which one produces highest DPS, but nr. 2 is more helpful to your team imo. (I main Lethality and nr. 1 is not the way Lethality should be played, but I won't go into that any further )

 

I'd say Pyrotech/Plasmatech has great single target DPS (burst not so much though), so I usually try to maximise that with an occasional great surge of satisfaction when hitting 4 or 5 people with Flamethrower...

[TACeMossie]

I don't know which one produces highest DPS, but nr. 2 is more helpful to your team imo. (I main Lethality and nr. 1 is not the way Lethality should be played, but I won't go into that any further )

 

I'd say Pyrotech/Plasmatech has great single target DPS (burst not so much though), so I usually try to maximise that with an occasional great surge of satisfaction when hitting 4 or 5 people with Flamethrower...

 

Pyro is probably the worst spec for single target DPS in PvP. Because its damage is 80% elemental (which sucks in PvP) and in PvE its really, really terrible. Though I guess since the way fights go in PvP you can throw caution to the wind and use the old rotation which is sort-of as good as it used to be before the neutering of 3.1.1

[Zoom_VI]

Pyro is probably the worst spec for single target DPS in PvP. Because its damage is 80% elemental (which sucks in PvP) and in PvE its really, really terrible. Though I guess since the way fights go in PvP you can throw caution to the wind and use the old rotation which is sort-of as good as it used to be before the neutering of 3.1.1

 

Elemental damage is really strong in PvP, since players have higher armor DR than I/E DR.

 

Also see tank tunnel.

 

That said I wouldn't say there is a "good" way to use Pyro in PvP, your options range from "completely useless" to "just sucky." With the coming changes in 3.2 that make Flamethrower spread incendiary it would be your best bet to just get the hang of cleaving with flamethrower.

[TACeMossie]

Elemental damage is really strong in PvP, since players have higher armor DR than I/E DR.

 

Also see tank tunnel.

 

That said I wouldn't say there is a "good" way to use Pyro in PvP, your options range from "completely useless" to "just sucky." With the coming changes in 3.2 that make Flamethrower spread incendiary it would be your best bet to just get the hang of cleaving with flamethrower.

 

Players may have a higher K/E DR than I/E DR, but compared to a boss (where AP/Tactics is still ahead), Players are 5-10% behind on the K/E DR and 10-15% ahead on the I/E DR, so the lead that Tactics has is magnified. Also not having the assailable debuff available sucks.

[Aetideus]

Players may have a higher K/E DR than I/E DR, but compared to a boss (where AP/Tactics is still ahead), Players are 5-10% behind on the K/E DR and 10-15% ahead on the I/E DR, so the lead that Tactics has is magnified. Also not having the assailable debuff available sucks.

Compared to Boss seem to be less important, but in the context of PvP results is very effective in pvp. Especially against opponents with defensive attunement.

Pyro does not suck in PvP. If cleave is the goal ST with Dps gear is better. But if total DPS, Dot/AoE damage and pressure to Tank and Healer is the goal then is great.

Having the ability of setting 3 elemental dots at any time apart from single attacks (autocrit/elemental also) is pressure. Pyro has +3 crit on elemental.

Edited April 13, 2015 by Aetideus

[cs_zoltan]

Compared to Boss seem to be less important.

 

I beg to differ.

 

Let's say there are 2 specs, they have the same dps on the Ops Dummy and they are the same type of dps (melee sustained or ranged burst etc), but one of them is 100% K/E and the other is 100% I/E.

In PvE they would be balanced, but in PvP the K/E spec would deal a lot more damage because of the lower armor value in PvP compared to Ops Bosses, and the I/E spec would deal 10% less damage because players actually have I/E damage reduction, but bosses don't.

 

And since only the PvE community parses regularly and most of the balance decisions are made (or demanded) with that data in mind (since PvPers don't have data) it is a real problem.

[Brunner_Venda]

Pyro is garbage in arenas and warzones.

 

Scorch's 7k dot over 30 seconds is garbage. What's that, 220 damage per tick? Lol. Sorry, it's useless.

Prototype flame thrower is decent, but it's a three second channel, the DPS is worse than a pair of magnetic blasts.. The AOE cleave is nice, but it's lacking punch.

Flaming fist and immolate damage was nerfed, they used to be decent in 3.0.0, but not anymore.

 

At best plasma/pyro is a glorified sub-par PVE spec.

 

Bioware wrecked it.

They won't acknowledge their terrible design.

They won't fix it.

 

I know some people do 'OK' in PVP with this spec, but let's be honest. You would do twice as well with AP.

Edited April 13, 2015 by Brunner_Venda

[Aetideus]

Pyro is garbage in arenas and warzones.

 

Scorch's 7k dot over 30 seconds is garbage. What's that, 220 damage per tick? Lol. Sorry, it's useless.

Prototype flame thrower is decent, but it's a three second channel, the DPS is worse than a pair of magnetic blasts.. The AOE cleave is nice, but it's lacking punch.

Flaming fist and immolate damage was nerfed, they used to be decent in 3.0.0, but not anymore.

 

At best plasma/pyro is a glorified sub-par PVE spec.

 

Bioware wrecked it.

They won't acknowledge their terrible design.

They won't fix it.

 

I know some people do 'OK' in PVP with this spec, but let's be honest. You would do twice as well with AP.

 

I have >1k ticks on Scorch and IM. Pyro has +3% crit on elemental.

Edited April 14, 2015 by Aetideus

[Zoom_VI]

Players may have a higher K/E DR than I/E DR, but compared to a boss (where AP/Tactics is still ahead), Players are 5-10% behind on the K/E DR and 10-15% ahead on the I/E DR, so the lead that Tactics has is magnified. Also not having the assailable debuff available sucks.

 

That's true, but on the context of your statement is still false, you claimed that elemental damage sucked in PvP. It may not be as effective as it is in PvE, but it still more effective than K/E. Saying a spec is 80% elemental damage is considered a good thing in PvP.

Heck in 2.x the main reason for taking a AP PT in ranked was for all the elemental damage + elemental cleave. a.k.a rape the tank and GG.

[Arehonn]

Pyro is garbage in arenas and warzones.

 

Scorch's 7k dot over 30 seconds is garbage. What's that, 220 damage per tick? Lol. Sorry, it's useless.

Prototype flame thrower is decent, but it's a three second channel, the DPS is worse than a pair of magnetic blasts.. The AOE cleave is nice, but it's lacking punch.

Flaming fist and immolate damage was nerfed, they used to be decent in 3.0.0, but not anymore.

 

At best plasma/pyro is a glorified sub-par PVE spec.

 

Bioware wrecked it.

They won't acknowledge their terrible design.

They won't fix it.

 

I know some people do 'OK' in PVP with this spec, but let's be honest. You would do twice as well with AP.

 

With my current gear setup, the Plasmatize dot crits for around 1.4-1.7k depending on the target. While it's not overpowering, it does help create the appearance of burst when single target dpsing someone. Both dots ticking at the same time plus a good Shockstrike crit followed by the instant crit of High Impact Bolt combined with two rockets will do around 16-20k. While not the same as the burst of Tactics, it's still legit as a sustained DPS spec.

 

Plus, I do think the Plasmatize dot is the longest running dot among all the disciplines and easily has the most visually annoying effect.

 

Plasmatech's damage is there, it's just that the defenses are rather weak. If I'm not leading the warzone in damage, I'm close or comparable. My best so far has been a 2620 damage per second match. But I do need to be very careful of when I make my way into the crowd for DPS pushes. Tactics players can spend a little extra time wading into the muck with their damage reduction passive's and Sonic Round's defensive chance increase. With Plasmatech, if I don't have a tank or another melee class being the main focus when I'm in deep, I make sure to to do my thing and get out of there and look for another chance of when to go in deep again.

Edited April 14, 2015 by Arehonn

[Aetideus]

With my current gear setup, the Plasmatize dot crits for around 1.4-1.7k depending on the target. While it's not overpowering, it does help create the appearance of burst when single target dpsing someone. Both dots ticking at the same time plus a good Shockstrike crit followed by the instant crit of High Impact Bolt combined with two rockets will do around 16-20k. While not the same as the burst of Tactics, it's still legit as a sustained DPS spec.

 

Plus, I do think the Plasmatize dot is the longest running dot among all the disciplines and easily has the most visually annoying effect.

 

Plasmatech's damage is there, it's just that the defenses are rather weak. If I'm not leading the warzone in damage, I'm close or comparable. My best so far has been a 2620 damage per second match. But I do need to be very careful of when I make my way into the crowd for DPS pushes. Tactics players can spend a little extra time wading into the muck with their damage reduction passive's and Sonic Round's defensive chance increase. With Plasmatech, if I don't have a tank or another melee class being the main focus when I'm in deep, I make sure to to do my thing and get out of there and look for another chance of when to go in deep again.

 

My best is 2.3k under ideal conditions. The tactics is the same. Adding Flame sweep combustible dot on top of those two dots, it is easy to understand the 2 to 4k dot dmg.

Scorch -> 30s

IM -> 18s

CG -> 6 s

Are those reduced by alacrity?

Edited April 14, 2015 by Aetideus

[cs_zoltan]

That's true, but on the context of your statement is still false, you claimed that elemental damage sucked in PvP. It may not be as effective as it is in PvE, but it still more effective than K/E. Saying a spec is 80% elemental damage is considered a good thing in PvP.

Heck in 2.x the main reason for taking a AP PT in ranked was for all the elemental damage + elemental cleave. a.k.a rape the tank and GG.

 

I/E only really matters vs tanks. Anything else and it's irrelevant.

[Zoom_VI]

I/E only really matters vs tanks. Anything else and it's irrelevant.

 

False, I/E is extremely relevant against everything that isn't wearing light armor. As long as everyone has more K/E DR than I/E DR then elemental damage is preferable.

[cs_zoltan]

False, I/E is extremely relevant against everything that isn't wearing light armor. As long as everyone has more K/E DR than I/E DR then elemental damage is preferable.

 

Sigh, no it's not.

Not even Heavy Armor classes (that are not tanks) have as much armor as Ops bosses. So again if a K/E and I/E spec have the same PvE dps they will be vastly out of balance in PvP.

 

I was bored so I did some napkin math:

AP PvE dps: 5006.98

Pyro PvE dps: 4945.94

 

In PvP (25% armor, 10% I/E DR, no sunder or assailable debuff):

AP: 5248,732425

Pyro: 4463,345728

Edited April 15, 2015 by cs_zoltan

[Zoom_VI]

Sigh, no it's not.

Not even Heavy Armor classes (that are not tanks) have as much armor as Ops bosses. So again if a K/E and I/E spec have the same PvE dps they will be vastly out of balance in PvP.

 

I was bored so I did some napkin math:

AP PvE dps: 5006.98

Pyro PvE dps: 4945.94

 

In PvP (25% armor, 10% I/E DR, no sunder or assailable debuff):

AP: 5248,732425

Pyro: 4463,345728

 

Your missing the point.

How much DR a PvE boss has against a damage type absolutely ZERO DAMN BEARING on how effective said damage type is PvP. totally flipping irrelevant.

 

You have to realize that in PvP the class that holds nearly all of the DPS records is a Madness Sorc, and at the same time IO Merc has the lowest DPS of any of the dotspecs in PvP. You can't draw direct relations from PvE to PvP because the rules used are entirely different.

 

You are trying to relate Pyro's PvP failings to it's damage type, when in reality Pyro's failings are pretty entirely due to the fact that the way it's damage is applied is wholly ineffective in a PvP. Old AP was a amazing spec in PvP and old AP was predominantly elemental.

Edited April 15, 2015 by Zoom_VI

[TACeMossie]

Your missing the point.

How much DR a PvE boss has against a damage type absolutely ZERO DAMN BEARING on how effective said damage type is PvP. totally flipping irrelevant.

 

You have to realize that in PvP the class that holds nearly all of the DPS records is a Madness Sorc, and at the same time IO Merc has the lowest DPS of any of the dotspecs in PvP. You can't draw direct relations from PvE to PvP because the rules used are entirely different.

 

You are trying to relate Pyro's PvP failings to it's damage type, when in reality Pyro's failings are pretty entirely due to the fact that the way it's damage is applied is wholly ineffective in a PvP. Old AP was a amazing spec in PvP and old AP was predominantly elemental.

 

Old AP also had 7 SC missiles, 30% DR while stunned and from AoE, and didn't have to contend with 20 billion rootbreaks so it had a far easier time getting its damage out.

[Zoom_VI]

Old AP also had 7 SC missiles, 30% DR while stunned and from AoE, and didn't have to contend with 20 billion rootbreaks so it had a far easier time getting its damage out.

 

Rootbreaks don't matter, since the flamethrower only has a snare which means it can be escaped with any mobility cooldown, be it scamper, hightail it, force leap, HTL, force speed, camo, etc. All of which existed in 2.x.

 

Even in 2.x I typically lost around 2/3 of my flamethrowers, and as far as I can tell I'm still only losing 2/3 of my flamethrowers The difference between 2.x and 3.x is that in 2.x the 1/3 of the flamethrowers that did go through would usually either outright kill someone(s) or at the very least put the enemy healer so far behind that someone would die shortly after. In 3.x the damage is so reduced relative to HP that you need a double plasmatech cleaving at the same time just to get the same results as 1 2.x flamethrower.

 

The 30% AoE DR is almost meaningless now, and was even more meaningless in 2.10. Currently Lightning is the only spec with any serious AoE potency, and in 2.10 AP was the only viable AoE spec.

The 30% DR is more useful, and was even moreso in 2.10. But it's not exactly amazing either. In regs you never seen any kind of focused stun + burn, and in ranked everyone and their mother is running pressure comps these days.

 

But I don't think it will be too long. Plasmatech has seen changes in almost every patch since 3.0, and will probably continue to see changes. I'm pretty certain the devs are already starting to realize how screwed up the spec is.

Edited April 15, 2015 by Zoom_VI

[Brunner_Venda]

Old AP also had 7 SC missiles, 30% DR while stunned and from AoE, and didn't have to contend with 20 billion rootbreaks so it had a far easier time getting its damage out.

 

This here ^^^

 

New AP has all of the old AP abilities that take the rough edges off of the ****** PVP game.

 

Stuns - you get a free 30% shield while stunned, which can be as much as half of the time. Stun locked deaths are fewer than most classes.

Overrides - everyone gets these, but they make stuns, slows, throws, and knock backs useless.

Energy rebounder gives you two shields in a match. Too bad it doesn't help with burst.

AOE damage gets 30% DR, because specs still spam lightning.

 

What it comes down to, is pyro is not a PVP spec. If you're having fun with it, that's good enough reason to run it, but you are far less effective and survivable.

Edited April 15, 2015 by Brunner_Venda

[cs_zoltan]

Your missing the point.

How much DR a PvE boss has against a damage type absolutely ZERO DAMN BEARING on how effective said damage type is PvP. totally flipping irrelevant.

I'm not missing the point, you do.

If PvE and PvP would be two completely separate game type with 0 interaction, with perfectly balanced state in both then I/E would be good in PvP as you say. But it's not like that. PvP and PvE dps goes hands in hands.

Have you ever seen someone asking for buffs based on PvP parsing (parsing and not scoreboard heroing) like PvEers do?

I guess not, and that's where the problem comes. Do you know how much Pyro would have to parse in PvE in order to outparse AP in PvP by the same magnitude Venge outparses Rage in PvP?

 

5931.36

 

And this is not exclusive to Pyro, every sustained spec has the same problem.

 

From another angle: Do you know how much Anni would have to parse in PvE to outparse Fury in PvP by the same magnitude as it outparses Fury right now in PvE?

 

5840.82

 

So what's the point of running them in PvP when they have the same dps as burst specs because of all the I/E damage? Or if they buff them in PvP what's the point of using burst in PvE when there's like 25% dps difference?

 

You have to realize that in PvP the class that holds nearly all of the DPS records is a Madness Sorc, and at the same time IO Merc has the lowest DPS of any of the dotspecs in PvP. You can't draw direct relations from PvE to PvP because the rules used are entirely different.

 

Irrelevant. Madness has good scoreboard dps because of DoTspread, and IO is not the lowest at all. Pyro and Lethality definitely has less dps, and maybe Virulance as well.

 

You are trying to relate Pyro's PvP failings to it's damage type, when in reality Pyro's failings are pretty entirely due to the fact that the way it's damage is applied is wholly ineffective in a PvP. Old AP was a amazing spec in PvP and old AP was predominantly elemental.

Damage is very much part of why Pyro sucks. Or do you really think AP outparsing Pyro in PvP by 17.5% is alright?

[Zoom_VI]

then I/E would be good in PvP as you say. But it's not like that. PvP and PvE dps goes hands in hands.

Have you ever seen someone asking for buffs based on PvP parsing (parsing and not scoreboard heroing) like PvEers do?

I guess not, and that's where the problem comes. Do you know how much Pyro would have to parse in PvE in order to outparse AP in PvP by the same magnitude Venge outparses Rage in PvP?

You do realize that at 2018 expertise a player gets +60% damage bonus on other players? Versus only 37.5% DR given by 2018 expertise. Or basically in PvP people have a flat 22.5% damage bonus that will magnify the difference between K/E DR and I/E DR?

 

Even if there was such a thing as a PvP parse, it still wouldn't matter which spec posts higher on this theoretical PvP parse because of the large disconnect between what kills bosses in raids and what kills players in PvP.

 

In a raid the boss has X HP where X is a really big number. Barring a few rare mechanics bosses don't heal either which means that if you do Y DPS then the boss will always die in T seconds. The manner of which the DPS is applied doesn't matter as long as said DPS happens. This is why parse leaderboards are used so much in the raiding community.

 

In PvP the damage required to kill isn't static. It could take as little as 42k damage to kill someone or it might take half a million damage output to kill the same person. It all varies based on incoming heals with respect to DcDs.

Basically in PvP to kill someone in time T you have to do (target's HP * target's HRPS) / T = how much post DcD DPS to kill in time T.

Except the thing is that the target's HRPS, and your post mitigation DPS vary wildly from any given point in time. Chain mezzed their healer? required DPS to kill just dropped by a ton. Target popping DcDs? Welp the DPS target just went through the roof.

Oh and since players have higher K/E DR than I/E DR then it takes less DPS to kill in the same time with I/E then it does with K/E

 

That ain't even factoring the fact that some classes are better at negating other classes damage.

 

So what's the point of running them in PvP when they have the same dps as burst specs because of all the I/E damage? Or if they buff them in PvP what's the point of using burst in PvE when there's like 25% dps difference?

They don't need to have better 'DPS parses' to be worth running. IO mercs have better DPS output than Arsenal even in PvP. But Arsenal is far superior for killing than IO is, in fact Arsenal is the only merc DPS spec that will ever get taken into competitive PvP. Why? Because while Arsenal's overarching DPS is poor, it's burst means that it's killing time on a target during it burst window is significantly lower than IO's which means the target will need way higher HRPS to not die during the burst window.

 

And that's what PvP boils down to. Getting ahead of the enemy healer, but burst isn't the only way to get ahead of the enemy healer, which brings me to:

 

Irrelevant. Madness has good scoreboard dps because of DoTspread,

Ah but see the funny thing about dotspread is no matter how weak those dots are, someone on the enemy team will eventually have to heal whatever those dots are doing or else somebody will eventually die. The reason this is normally dismissed as fluff is because you have a limit on how much time is available to kill, especially in 8v8 regs where you have to wipe the enemy team and cap in the ~25 seconds you have before the respawn waves comes back in.

However in 4v4 you have a lot more time to work with, and in 4v4 there is rarely if ever any combat breaks that allow OoC healing. Plus if you add in some more dotspreaders then the time for that 'fluff' to kill decreases.

 

Heck if you have a team's total damage dealt and the enemy team's total healing, you could easily extrapolate a fairly accurate number for how many deaths the enemy team suffered. Unless it's a blow out match with one team farming the other, in that case there is too much OoC healing to pull a figure. Huttball is sketchy too due to all the environment damage.

 

Now coming back to Pyrotech. Pyrotech doesn't need to beat AP in the single target DPS, nor does it need to beat AP in the burst department. All Pyrotech needs is a way to match or beat AP's killing effectiveness with either cleave, dotspread or both. Preferably cleave, dotspread leads to really lame PvP. Old AP never was able to beat old Pyro on a single target, but if old AP could get two targets in a nice cleave the damage output spiked tremendously which in turn meant it put the enemy healer farther behind. Two old AP PT's cleaving could put out enough multitarget damage to guarantee the enemy healers are not going to catch back up assuming the double cleave didn't outright kill someone. (like the tank for instances, thanks to the lovely vulnerability called Guard)

 

 

 

 

Damage is very much part of why Pyro sucks. Or do you really think AP outparsing Pyro in PvP by 17.5% is alright?

AP can outparse Pyro all it wants, if Pyro had some proper mechanics it wouldn't matter. However in it's current state it has neither burst, nor cleave, heck it doesn't even have a practical dotspread.

[cs_zoltan]

You do realize that at 2018 expertise a player gets +60% damage bonus on other players? Versus only 37.5% DR given by 2018 expertise. Or basically in PvP people have a flat 22.5% damage bonus that will magnify the difference between K/E DR and I/E DR?

I hate to be the one to tell you but that's not how percentages work. 60% damage boost vs 37.5% damage reduction is not 22.5% damage boost. It is: 1.6 * (1 - 0.375 ) = 1.

Ergo nothing.

 

 

Even if there was such a thing as a PvP parse, it still wouldn't matter which spec posts higher on this theoretical PvP parse because of the large disconnect between what kills bosses in raids and what kills players in PvP.

 

In a raid the boss has X HP where X is a really big number. Barring a few rare mechanics bosses don't heal either which means that if you do Y DPS then the boss will always die in T seconds. The manner of which the DPS is applied doesn't matter as long as said DPS happens. This is why parse leaderboards are used so much in the raiding community.

 

In PvP the damage required to kill isn't static. It could take as little as 42k damage to kill someone or it might take half a million damage output to kill the same person. It all varies based on incoming heals with respect to DcDs.

Basically in PvP to kill someone in time T you have to do (target's HP * target's HRPS) / T = how much post DcD DPS to kill in time T.

Except the thing is that the target's HRPS, and your post mitigation DPS vary wildly from any given point in time. Chain mezzed their healer? required DPS to kill just dropped by a ton. Target popping DcDs? Welp the DPS target just went through the roof.

That's all very nice, but what does that have to do with tha fact that if a spec has better sustained dps, better burst, and less setuptime it's better in PvP (or rather in anything)? And the culprit for that is I/E damage.

Oh and since players have higher K/E DR than I/E DR then it takes less DPS to kill in the same time with I/E then it does with K/E

Seriously? How many times do we have to repeat the same thing before you understand? Yes players have more K/E DR than I/E, but I/E attacks deal less damage to begin with.

Here's an example, this time you might understand it:

Thermal Detonator: 10k damage in PvE.

Immolate: 10k damage in PvE.

 

TD in PvP: 10,000 / (0.682741026) * ( 1 - 0.25 ) = 10985.13 damage. (0.25 is the medium armor in PvP)

Immolate in PvP: 10,000 * ( 1 - 0.1 ) = 9000 damage.

That ain't even factoring the fact that some classes are better at negating other classes damage.

Yes, there are DoT damage reductions, and AoE damage reductions. But there is no such thing as burst damage reduction

Which makes Pyro's dps all the worse.

 

 

They don't need to have better 'DPS parses' to be worth running. IO mercs have better DPS output than Arsenal even in PvP. But Arsenal is far superior for killing than IO is, in fact Arsenal is the only merc DPS spec that will ever get taken into competitive PvP. Why? Because while Arsenal's overarching DPS is poor, it's burst means that it's killing time on a target during it burst window is significantly lower than IO's which means the target will need way higher HRPS to not die during the burst window.

Actually Arsenal has better dps than IO in PvP by at least 7%, because...wait for it...I/E damage.

 

Now coming back to Pyrotech. Pyrotech doesn't need to beat AP in the single target DPS, nor does it need to beat AP in the burst department. All Pyrotech needs is a way to match or beat AP's killing effectiveness with either cleave, dotspread or both. Preferably cleave, dotspread leads to really lame PvP. Old AP never was able to beat old Pyro on a single target, but if old AP could get two targets in a nice cleave the damage output spiked tremendously which in turn meant it put the enemy healer farther behind. Two old AP PT's cleaving could put out enough multitarget damage to guarantee the enemy healers are not going to catch back up assuming the double cleave didn't outright kill someone. (like the tank for instances, thanks to the lovely vulnerability called Guard)

So you say every I/E damage spec (mostly sustained specs) should have the same role: Overwhelming guard?

Edited April 15, 2015 by cs_zoltan

[Aetideus]

Nice posts form both of you. I agree with Zoom on TTK factor in PvP.

 

So you say every I/E damage spec (mostly sustained specs) should have the same role: Overwhelming guard?

 

Basically yes. The best role imo for Pyro as is, is to overwhelm the healer-tank duo. Sweep par ex. crits on 3.5k > ~5k premitigated on tank.

Edited April 15, 2015 by Aetideus

[Zoom_VI]

I hate to be the one to tell you but that's not how percentages work. 60% damage boost vs 37.5% damage reduction is not 22.5% damage boost. It is: 1.6 * (1 - 0.375 ) = 1.

Ergo nothing.

ok I admit I derped on that one.

 

 

 

That's all very nice, but what does that have to do with tha fact that if a spec has better sustained dps, better burst, and less setuptime it's better in PvP (or rather in anything)? And the culprit for that is I/E damage.

No it isn't in fact if you turned Pyro to pure K/E even with a increase in the damage coefficient, it would still be nerf because all you accomplished is making total **** towards tanks which are the only thing it's even remotely useful against in its current state.

 

Let explain something to you. Viability and effectiveness in PvP for a DPS class is determined by a wide array of variables of which sustained single target DPS numbers are only a small factor of.

You know what the best pressure class in PvP is? Hatred, also Madness Sins where the number 1 pick for pressure comps from 2.8 to 3.0.

Now Hatred has a large chuck of it damage from I/E, not as much as Pyrotech, but tell me how does Hatred fit with your "parse" math, it ain't pretty is it now, especially since it wasn't exactly dominating the PvE parse leaderboards to being with.

And yet, and yet it's got the best damn pressure in the entirety of PvP.

 

Thermal Detonator: 10k damage in PvE.

Immolate: 10k damage in PvE.

 

TD in PvP: 10,000 / (0.682741026) * ( 1 - 0.25 ) = 10985.13 damage. (0.25 is the medium armor in PvP)

Immolate in PvP: 10,000 * ( 1 - 0.1 ) = 9000 damage.

Here the thing though, and 9k hit that will hit everything from a sage to Vanguard Tank for 8-9k consistently and is in the practical terms of PvP better than a ability that hits for 1k more, but only on classes with light/medium armor.

 

Besides your DPS numbers are completely false, why?

Because they are derived from PvE numbers. In PvE the boss doesn't deliberately look for and exploit weaknesses in your spec. In PvE the boss doesn't time DcDs in order to ruin your burst. In PvE the mobs don't kite you. In PvE you don't have damage sponges watching your target of target and guarding whatever is getting focus fired. In PvE the mobs don't coordinate CC in order to lock your healers and tanks down so they can burst down some poor sod. In PvE the mobs can't even use a interrupt intelligently.

 

In PvP all of those things happen and more. Which is why the most important attribute in PvP is not some DPS number, but rather how the spec damage is applied. Pyro doesn't need to get it damage buffed. Pyro is suffering in PvP because the damage coefficients for it's mainstay killing abilities where nerfed through the ground in order to accommodate a bunch of dots that also have piss poor damage coefficents. Like seriously, do you know how garbage a 30 second duration dot is in PvP?

 

Yes, there are DoT damage reductions, and AoE damage reductions. But there is no such thing as burst damage reduction

Yes there is, it's called 30% CC DR. How do think hardswitch comps work? Also AoE cleaves, 30% DR or otherwise are almost always going to be more effective in PvP, due the simple reason that it's harder to heal multiple people that are all taking damage at once than it is to heal one person. That how cleaves strats work

 

 

 

Actually Arsenal has better dps than IO in PvP by at least 7%, because...wait for it...I/E damage.

Nope, I can 100% garentee you that if you had a arsenal merc and IO merc free cast for a warzone the IO merc would lead the Arsenal merc by a mile. And if we factor in the fact mercs are going to get tunneled constantly since they are mercs, then IO ends up way damn higher just on the account that it has better mobile damage.

 

 

 

So you say every I/E damage spec (mostly sustained specs) should have the same role: Overwhelming guard?

Not inherently, every AoE spec is naturally adept at exploiting guard simply because it's AoE. I/E damage is just icing on the cake in that regard.

Edited April 15, 2015 by Zoom_VI