The Jedi Knight, and Sith Warrior classes need a huge buff.

[Dalnar]

I do not think that the push -> leap mechanic would change anything.

 

I would just move agility training from focus tree down to first or second tier, and let it proc on all leaps. That should give the opportunity for all guardians to enhance their mobility after leap to stick to their target.

 

Since focus tree is shared, that would apply to sents as well.

Edited January 11, 2012 by Dalnar

[Noth]

I do not think that the push -> leap mechanic would change anything.

 

I would just move agility training from focus tree down to first or second tier, and let it proc on all leaps. That should give the opportunity for all guardians to enhance their mobility after leap to stick to their target.

 

That doesn't solve the biggest issue of being knocked back after the leap and CC'd. being able to push and refresh leap does fix that.

[corebit]

Have you guys considered the rotations for Guardians/Juggernauts as well? It too can be complicated and takes some finesse and efficient decision making to play. A great example would be Sunder and Assault (Jugg). Why have both? The ability bloat in this game is huge as it is making things even more complicated for the Guardian/Juggernaut, why not remove the cooldown entirely on Sunder to have it replace assault?

 

This is certainly a welcome change, but what about Obliterate? The description of the skill certainly sounds like it should close some distance, but it's only usable from 10m. Can we bump that up to something more substantial? Say, 30m with a slightly longer cooldown?

 

Great suggestions. We already have a very clunky and cumbersome way to build up Focus/Rage, I believe Sundering Strike should lose the cooldown and completely replace Strike/Assault.

[Dalnar]

That doesn't solve the biggest issue of being knocked back after the leap and CC'd. being able to push and refresh leap does fix that.

 

Well, unremitting solves that part. Maybe switch places with unremitting with swelling winds as well a bit nerf to sweep bomber never hurts its dull anyway.

Edited January 11, 2012 by Dalnar

[Noth]

Well, unremitting solves that part. Maybe switch places with unremitting with swelling winds as well a bit nerf to sweep bomber never hurts its dull anyway.

 

Actually it doesn't that works against people who blow their stuff as soon as you jump at them. A good player waits a bit then blows it leaving you stuck at range again (could also be done to negate the speed boost too).

[Denubisx]

Interesting to see what people have said. i decided to add my own perspective to the debate. Believing in full disclosure, i figured i would just give people a brief background

 

50th jugg

Only played on the tanking side of it so got 31 in the immortal tree and 10 in veng i believe....getting the smash 30% accuracy etc....

Gear wise i am full champion minus 3 piece two of which are cent the other one is lvl 50 purple mods.

 

i am a biochem person max lvl with purple heals and stims

i am mostly a pvper because i dont have time to really sit down and raid atm now that I returned from vacation.

 

From my own experience speaking of just pvp and solo content as a tank, we need to do more dps. even soloing at lvl 50 with jaeda's dps (who i bought pretty much all purple lvl 49 or made) (spelling btw?) my dps is a joke. i even swap out my tank champion lightsaber and change my implants for when i solo.

 

this lack of dps carries over to pvp. i know we dont have "numbers" but u dont need logs to tell u what is going on. i typically run with a tank spec BH, a merc and a sorc. the only person i really compare myself with is the BH because we both play tanks, we have about the same gear and are of equal talents. what pains me and what no one in this forum who defends juggs atm can explain is why a

 

BH tank spec who has more or less has the same survivability as us and utility can wipe the floor with us on dps....

 

my average good games against random pvp matches i might do 160-170k dps and can easily do over 40k healing plus 60k protection if there is a healer (which i rarely get). my friend BH routinely puts up 260k+ dps while still being able to protect allies like myself. Unfortunately i have never really followed assassin tanks so i can’t state how our numbers compare to theirs.

 

Simply put, i dont understand this very large gap. i am not calling for a nerf to BH but i dont see where we make up the difference at the moment.

 

i DO think we need a dps buff of some sort in the tanking tree, or more survivability to force/tech based attacks. certain classes with equal lvl gear are almost, to literally impossible to kill if played right for a tank spec jugg 1 on 1. maybe this is by design which is fine, but at least make us be the toughest sons of b***** out there so their fingers hurt by the time they do kill us. atm this is not the case. People that do force or tech based attacks can burn us very quickly if our cooldowns aren’t up (or at least in my perspective).

 

btw i do enjoy playing a jugg even with its flaws.

 

Some people are also complaining about our guard mechanic and I have to say I agree. The flaw is just that cool downs that should stun or stop healers from healing don’t work as intended for many classes. U fix this, and guard will be fixed as well. Healers will become more easily killable for all classes outside ops and smugglers who just blow away people regardless of class…

[Dalnar]

Actually it doesn't that works against people who blow their stuff as soon as you jump at them. A good player waits a bit then blows it leaving you stuck at range again (could also be done to negate the speed boost too).

 

But it gives you time to react at least. Otherwise it would be pretty lame, don't you think ? From my part, I have zero issues with mobility in pvp, but I'm the proud user of zealous leap as well. 3 leaps on combat means a lot of mobility.

[Noth]

But it gives you time to react at least. Otherwise it would be pretty lame, don't you think ? From my part, I have zero issues with mobility in pvp, but I'm the proud user of zealous leap as well. 3 leaps on combat means a lot of mobility.

 

3 leaps is a lot, which is why as far back as july in beta I have pushed for each tree to have it's own second closer in places where it would be impossible to have more than two. Immortal would get pull (backhand would get a reduction in damage and hate and made baseline), Rage would get Oblit place higher in the tree made a 20 meter range and the speed burst built in (maybe make it a targetted AoE effect where you leap to the targetted area). Vengeance would get a talent that makes saber throw refresh the cooldown on force charge. Thta fixes the mobility issue and the complaint of the Jugg/Guard not having the basic 4 second stun that all other classes get.

Edited January 11, 2012 by Noth

[Dalnar]

3 leaps is a lot...

 

Yes it is. And with this proposed change of pull refreshing it, I will be able to do 4 leaps in ~7s under ideal circumstances covering the distance of 100m, hello hutt ball.

[DCsixshooter]

Man I was hoping you guys would increase the Threat percentage on Soresu form to 100% instead of 50%. Anybody else feel like 50% is a little low?

[Delekahn]

Also, anyone think the lightning abilities are OP? Once you get hit, you're pretty much done... cause even if you have your ability to get out of the sap, the damage continues, and then they can just do it again in what seems like 10 seconds later and you're stuck on a cd and can't get out... if there are 2 or more, well, just don't even think about going there.

 

This is exactly why I actually quit a Voidstar the other day. I was so enraged over constant lightning kills that I had to walk away for a bit.

 

 

I felt a lot during the leveling process I was pigeon-holed into using Malavai Quinn, because he was a healer. Since he was a healer, he kept me alive during most of the important fights and it was just impractical not to have him all the time and just send the other companions on crew quests.

 

However, I really wanted to use Jaesa Willsaam. Unfortunately, it was just too risky for most fights... and some fights I downright needed a healer. Even when I was using all of my damage mitigation abilities and medpacs and CC abilities... including even Force Camoflage to get out of the battle for a bit and let the companion take a beating for a bit.

 

I'd like feeling like I would have equal chance of success with the other companions as I would with Malavai. Besides... that guy is a jerk!

 

And Jaesa is hot.

 

I feel the same way, I was really enjoying running the game with my girl Kira, but after a while, I just could not survive without Doc. Frustrating....

[Hyperionthethird]

[*]Please understand that balance issues during the leveling process are different than issues at level 50 and are handled in different ways. If you feel your class has issues during your journey to 50, especially communicate the level range and area of the game where you are experiencing issues to aid our investigations.

 

Well since you asked, vigilance specced from 20 to 30 i found melee elites to be... a real pain at the very least. That low survivability for dps specs didnt seem to be a high level issue only to me.

 

I thought part of the problem might have been mainly using a baseline toolkit of abilities til level 30 for damage, but really i think it was more survivability.

[FrostyDroid]

Man I was hoping you guys would increase the Threat percentage on Soresu form to 100% instead of 50%. Anybody else feel like 50% is a little low?

 

I think it's more of an issue that it only affects targets you actually damage.

 

If, for example, Force Leap had an AoE damage component, even if that damage was feeble, it would generate far more threat.

 

This is why Powertechs have it so easy: Death from Above. Even if it doesn't run it's full duration, a little bit of wide area damage, with a 50% threat buff, is very effective at attracting aggro.

 

 

So this is what I suggest:

 

Guardian Defense Talent: Shockwave: Force Leap now does weak kinetic damage to up to 5 enemies within 10m of the primary target, and can knock down weak mobs.

[Herbertllew]

optionally, get more detailed data on your combat performance.

 

The emphasis on the word "your" indicates you do not believe that it's useful to have players have information about other players' performance. Is that correct? Do you not believe raid leaders should have the ability to parse full combat logs to understand how their team is performing?

[MEHColeman]

...we are certainly aware that the Marauder and Sentinel are very gameplay intensive classes with some of the most complex rotations in the game. While we are currently looking at quality of life and usability improvements to increase the class' playability without compromising the unique aspects of the class, we don't have anything specific to announce just yet.

-- Georg

 

This is the one post we are likely to get addressing two forums full of discussion about peoples feelings about the Sentinel and Marauder ACs, and this is what we get?

I'm so dissapointed that Marauders and Sentinels are basically left here blowing in the wind.

[Hyperionthethird]

 

Have you guys considered the rotations for Guardians/Juggernauts as well? It too can be complicated and takes some finesse and efficient decision making to play. A great example would be Sunder and Assault (Jugg). Why have both? The ability bloat in this game is huge as it is making things even more complicated for the Guardian/Juggernaut, why not remove the cooldown entirely on Sunder to have it replace assault?

 

I like having both of those tbh. The first place I'd want them to look at merging or cutting abilities is pommel strike and opportune strike, dunno the sith war names but they only work on weaker mobs that are stunned/slowed.

[GoldPush]

Finally, I'd like to acknowledge, again, that we do understand that there is a desire for players to get more detailed information what happens to their character in combat. We agree with those requests and are working on various ways to, optionally, get more detailed data on your combat performance.

-- Georg

This scares me a bit. It almost makes me sound like you're not going to show the dmgoutput of all the DPS in raid. If that was the case what you're trying to tell us is to raid with ****** people and carry them and all they can do is lie "omagad i has 2k dpz np!!!"

 

Put in a working acceptable dmgmeter for ops/party that actually shows

- How much dmg was done for the fight (PER PLAYER)

- DPS done for the fight (PER PLAYER)

- DPS delta at all times (PER PLAYER)

- Ability breakdown (What spells did what dmg so we can compare within a class and analyse classes). (PER PLAYER)

- Show misses (both for mainhand and offhand) (PER PLAYER)

- Show interrupts and misses on that aswell. (PER PLAYER)

 

I could go on but that is basic functionality which is a necessity.

Edited January 11, 2012 by GoldPush

[GoldPush]

This is exactly why I actually quit a Voidstar the other day. I was so enraged over constant lightning kills that I had to walk away for a bit.

It gets a bit much if you have 2+ inqs spamming it yes... 1v1 it's not an issue really.

[Sabbatai]

So you're buffing Juggernaut to be even more effective offensively and have even more survivability while leaving Marauder with it's wet noodle and paper bag armor? Am I reading this correctly?

 

No you are not reading this correctly. This was to address guardian/jugg specifically. How you can twist any of these words into "Marauder/Sentinel will get no buffs and we are not interested in investigating player concerns about these issues" is beyond me.

[j-gordon-s]

for the "Tank" spec on jedi guard and sith jugg, agro seems to still be huge problem, i run into many players who with equal or lesser gear than their tanks still pull "agro" from the tank, including the healers. i myself find that against some more power dps players i need to use my backhand, aoe taunt, and single target taunt every time they become available. i have looked into the "skill tree" and see no further way to generate threat or increase my innate threat. any thoughts?

 

Threat generation is crippled for melee tanks at the moment, because of the let's call them ability-lag issues. While your character deflects a blaster bolt or parries a blow, the corresponding animation plays and you are not able to activate your next ability.

 

I had streaks of bad luck (well, actually it was good luck because I deflected/parried alot) where I couldn't activate an ability several GCs in a row. When that happens you are bound to lose aggro.

 

An aggro buff/adjustments are needed for our AoE abilties Force Sweep/Smash and/or Cyclone Slash/Sweeping Slash (I hope I got the mirrored abilities right). Trying to tank a group of mobs is a real pain as Warrior/Knight at the moment, especially if there are additional ranged mobs present.

Edited January 11, 2012 by j-gordon-s

[Guest Execs]

Basically all i read from the dev was

"All go roll operatives until the stats show everyone is playing an operative, then we'll nerf them"

[Araxus]

So you're buffing Juggernaut to be even more effective offensively and have even more survivability while leaving Marauder with it's wet noodle and paper bag armor? Am I reading this correctly?

 

I'm also quite confused as to why the tank spec'ed juggernauts are able to do more damage then the marauders. Going up against the tanks in warzones is extremely difficult because of all the control they have, combined with damage that is on par with the marauder damage, combined with their heavy armor and survivability.

 

Another point of contention, why is the marauder the only class that has a different armor type then it's sister AC? Power tech's and Mercs share the same heavy armor. Why have you seen fit to give mercs access to quite possibly the easiest damage and abilities in one button, as well as fully capable single target healing, survivability, cc, two knockbacks and heavy armor? I mean in one button a merc does what takes us 6+ and does it better. Hit tracermissle and they do great damage, from range, debuff armor, and buff/proc their two higher damage abilities.

 

For example, to do similar the Annihilation Marauder has to:

 

Charge > Deadly saber > Battering assault > cloak of pain > rapture > Annihilate > snare > figure out what to do next in a unlimited possible outcomes.

 

They have to do all this while:

- Staying within melee range

- Overcoming knock-backs, snares and roots

- Relying on a tank to give them the survivability of their target

- Relying on a healer to give them the heals their target has themselves

- Managing the extremely awkward rage resource mechanic

- Managing multiple interrupts because they can not dish out the damage that a merc arsenal can (which they can do 0-30m), nor can they take said damage like a arsenal can

 

It's virtually the same with every other class in the game. Tanks out last your damage while doing perfectly good damage themselves, healers out heal your damage, ranged classes knock you back and root you, then kill you before you can have much effect, burst classes stun you and kill you before you can do anything about it.

 

This class requires the player to be either over-geared or have a massive skill advantage over their competition just to be significant. Add to that the garbage animation system, instant abilities being interrupted, ability delay and animations stuttering and you get a class that gives me no reason to pay $15/mo for the punishment of playing it.

 

Could not have said it any better myself. I play a Sentinel, pvp geared out, expertise bonus at just under 10%. I eat up un geared level 10s all day, but put me up against a jugg/assain/merc/powertech/inquisit of equal gear, and its like trying to solo the final encounter in my story line all over again(which i died doing 4 times, in full pvp epics, gg class).

 

To play a game that is dripping with crowd control and knockback abilities, without having any of your own, AS A MELEE CLASS, is not very enjoyable.

[neocoma]

Man I was hoping you guys would increase the Threat percentage on Soresu form to 100% instead of 50%. Anybody else feel like 50% is a little low?

 

50% seems fine. Problem is...every other tankclass deals enough damage to maintain threat.

[Ilianor]

First of all: Thanks Georg for the awesome game. I really love to play my Marauder. Got nearly full pvp gear and cleared the raid instances last week.

 

So to the Thread Creator:

 

Let's see what you want:

- more tank ability | never played a juggernaut before, but they are kicking asses in Warzones

- more dps | are you kidding me? Hes a tank and not a freakin' dd

 

So you want that juggernauts get buffed cuz u cant be god and leave fights with 90% life? If u think so - gl with leading a "top raiding guild" LOL

 

I don't really care of scrubs like you, if u suck -> your prob.

----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

So some things that need to be balanced (General):

- Its hard to get many medals as pure dd (most were 8), Sorcerer and Tanks get easily 10+

- Ranges > Melees in PvP and especially in Raids

 

Some thing that need to be balanced (Marauder):

- Every Marauder I met needed to use the healer as companion, I had nearly no Probs. in my class quest. Leveled 99% alone and I was most of the time underleved - dunno why xD, but the last 2 (especially vs Baras) are freakin hard to solo (they are impossible to solo, the quest before going for baras is impossible, because the mob can 1 hit u from 40%...). I needed to use all of my skills (+ medi pecks + invis + def skills + 20 min cd skill) for elite bosses and I think its ok. But it would be awesome if we could play with an dd as marauder cuz the situation is atm like this:

Jump into Group of 1 rar (silver), 1 elite and 1 normal. Activate both def cds - do burst dmg at the elite mob. Now it gets tricky, if my 50 def buff is over I get too much dmg, so I use my 90% miss debuff on the elite and do more dmg. Next I use invis to lose the aggro, asap I attack the elite again, normally I need 5 secs till I got the aggro again and sometimes I need a med pack. After the elite is dead I kill the rar and normal mob. That fight is with an heal companion beatable but with an dd or tank impossible...

 

another Situation:

Group of 2 rar - now without def cds but with shadow cloak:

- let dd begin the fight -> 2 sec and shes under 60% -> not good

- let me begin the fight -> 2 sec im under 60% -> not good

- let me begin the fight (with healer comp) -> 2 sec im under 60% + heal -> over 80%

 

Thats the problem atm.

 

So I like the fights cuz when I die I know I did something wrong or I just didnt gave my best. So I wait for my cds and try it again.

 

So now the Situation in BGS:

- the overall dmg as marauder is awesome, I play as carnage (2. skill tree) and its so awesome to shout with relict + 100% armor pen + 100% crit. I got nearly no probs vs a healer in 1on1. Sure, I need to use all of my skills to kill him (if hes good geared) but its mostly worth it.

- BUT one big fat minus point is the knockback especially in huttball, 90% I try to attack the enemy ball holder in our side, I get knock backed - use my charge - next knock back... da ****? One of the ******es knockbacks is the one from the sniper: knockback + snare... gg.

 

Thats no flame, just my opinion. I love to play marauder and it would be awesome if there would be an damage meter so I can enhance my rotation or switch my talent tree or or or..^^

 

Sorry for my bad english

 

@Araxus

Sorry but then ure doin' something wrong. Don't wanna say that youre a bad player but I can nearly 1on1 every1. It gets annoying if there are 2 classes with cc, but then most of the time I kill at least 1 of them before I die... xD Mission accomplished xD

Edited January 11, 2012 by Ilianor

[j-gordon-s]

Let's see what you want:

- more tank ability | never played a juggernaut before, but they are kicking asses in Warzones

- more dps | are you kidding me? Hes a tank and not a freakin' dd

- more cc | Dunno how much cc jugernaut got, but more than marauders I think

 

So in other words, you have no *********** clue. Why did you bother posting about Juggernauts/Guardians at all then?