Need Rolls

[Declan_Vee]

So much this. I have gotten into a few arguments over this exact thing and the other people didn't seem to get it... they wanted me to get on the severely undergeared alt instead of my bis main

 

Been in a similar situation recently, and personally raged for quite a bit afterwards.

 

Firstly... not interested in how Need/Greed goes as far as the leveling flashpoints; so lets not start on a Sage rolling need on a cunning piece or something... maybe they misclicked and you should ask them if they really meant to roll... if they did, they may still want to trade it back to you... if not it doesn't really matter anyway.

 

Back to level 60 operations. I appreciate that some people may not be geared at this point... however this does not entitle them to loot any more than someone in the group who is BiS. Don't give me... Oh I'm only wearing 2 piece Resurrected; I "need" that piece more than you do. This is where the word "Need" becomes misleading. Yes it may sound like it something for those on a straight gear upgrade path, but what it really means is that a high need roll will always win over a high greed roll... and that's it.

 

I run about 6 pugs a week both Rav and ToS and loot rules are always simple, 1 Token per run (resets between ops) regardless on whether it's an upgrade for you or not. Relics/Implants are either included in this or excluded and are a free roll, which will depend on whether a large portion of the group "needs" (as a direct upgrade path) them or not. If Relics and Implants are counted what I'll often do is hold onto them and roll on them after the set piece tokens have been given out. Most people seem to appreciate this and largely due to a feature brought in back in 1.4 that so many seem to forget about.

 

Tokens can be traded.

 

At this point tokens no longer only represent something that can be traded with a vendor, but a bartering chip which can be traded with other people in the group. Do I need the belt set bonus to finish off my set, should I only be allowed to roll on the belt? Maybe the person who won the belt token doesn't really "need" that piece either, but was unlucky on rolling on the piece they did. Maybe the boots I won earlier but also didn't "need" would be much more useful to them. We trade the tokens, and everyone's happy... except everyone who lost out, but at least the system was fair and not: Looking for overgeared DPS to carry us through this op, but since you don't "need" anything you can't roll.

Edited March 24, 2015 by Declan_Vee

[Declan_Vee]

Adding in for anticipated "But how am I supposed to get gear then?" post.

 

Couple of ways to get geared using these kind of rules.

 

First way is to get lucky on your rolls, roll alts and funnel all tokens into one character. This can be slow, but you'll get there...

Second way which is much quicker would be to join a guild (which seems to be the answer for a lot of things in this game) Most people with any kind of skill are gearing their 6th or 7th alt at his point. See if you can arrange a gearing run within the guild, if you're a nice guy/or girl and they can see that having you geared up would be a good thing for the group they'll gladly give you most every token that drops.

 

But say this group has one or two pugs in it. then things can get a bit fiddly, but not impossible. Everybody still gets a roll on pieces, regardless of their "need".

 

If the pug wins the roll, it's theirs and they're locked out of future rolls.

If a guild member wins the roll the piece goes to the person being geared by the guild, but the person who won the roll is now locked; even though they don't get to keep the token.

 

Apparently this kind is system is hard to grasp for some people.

[power-alex]

1 Token per run (resets between ops) regardless on whether it's an upgrade for you or not. Relics/Implants are either included in this or excluded and are a free roll, which will depend on whether a large portion of the group "needs" (as a direct upgrade path) them or not. If Relics and Implants are counted what I'll often do is hold onto them and roll on them after the set piece tokens have been given out. Most people seem to appreciate this and largely due to a feature brought in back in 1.4 that so many seem to forget about.

 

Tokens can be traded.

 

I totally agree with this. This is so stupid when you join a pug on your geared toon, help them clear the content, win a piece and then they say: hey, you already have that set bonus, you shouldn't have needed on it. ***? So if i brought my 186 geared toon and be a lot less help or even a burden I would get priority on the roll? This is some kind of reverse logic, if you ask me.

[judgeender]

Because he has another definition of "need"? He needs it. For his alt. Would you rather have someone on his well geared main in a pug run needing one or two pieces for his undergeared alt, or the same person on his undergeared alt in the same run, to gear his alt up? The latter doesn't make sense really, does it? Because with lesser gear you have less chance of succeeding. So wheres the problem?

 

This. I can only run the instance once per week on my ungeared alt(s). I can then either run it on my geared main (and geared alts) or simply not run it again. There is no way I am running these SM OPs in pug groups on my geared main/alts, if I have zero chance of rolling on loot for my alts that need the gear. Yes, I will run those SM OPs on my geared toons in a guild run if we need to gear someone up for guild runs, but I'm not going to waste my time doing pug runs for no reason. If I (and everyone else) stop doing these pug runs on their geared toons, two things will happen. First, the number of pug runs that actually can happen will drop (meaning you may not even get a run going) or at a minimum, it will take longer to form a group. Second, the chances of success and/or a quick run will drop as the group is now be composed of more ungeared alts. Alternatively, I can swap out my real gear for some crappy gear on my main/geared alts, and go on the run. Is that really helping the group though?

 

On Shadowlands, most of the pug runs I have been involved in have the simple rule of 1 set token per person per run (and only need on implants/ears/relics if you can use on this character, and don't be greedy if others need these as well). Many people seem to understand that those on more geared characters are there to get some gear for an alt, but want to make the run as quick and smooth as possible. If the group runs both instances, most people should get something. It seems to be the best option if you want to increase the number of pug runs and chances of success.

[Icestar]

One time someone got mad at me for needing on a piece for my tank's DPS set and complained it should only be for your current role. I then proceeded to switch stances and tell him I am a DPS you can play tank now. He didn't argue after that

 

Then you are not the role you queued up for, switching roles within the FP should only be accepted when a new player has to be replaced.

 

I would vote kick you, not for taking the loot but for changing role.

Edited March 25, 2015 by Icestar

[Shwarzchild]

Then you are not the role you queued up for, switching roles within the FP should only be accepted when a new player has to be replaced.

 

I would vote kick you, not for taking the loot but for changing role.

 

You missed the point. Him switching roles was more to show that different toons can wear different hats, and if you strictly say someone can only need for their current toon and current role, then you're missing what's going on with people. Or simply ignoring the fact that each toon a person has can fill different overall needs. For instance, a tank with good dps gear on Underlurker? Yes please since you only need 1 tank on that fight, and all the additional dps you can get would be absolutely a welcome thing.

 

It's incredible to me how the entitlement and narrow minded attitudes are peaking through in this thread. I apologize for being a jerk or sorts here, but seriously you people either have some sort of obsession with kicking people, or some need for power. I don't know which. At the end of the day I hope the ones with the insanely strict codes of conduct find it within themselves to accept that people all play the game a different way, have different goals, and have different ways they reach those goals. If you're in a pug group, you don't know the person to your left or right most likely, and you can't assume they agree with your expectations. That difference should be accepted, but man it sounds like some of you here just want to get rid of anyone who doesn't agree completely with your point of view. That's not a good attitude at all.

Edited March 25, 2015 by Shwarzchild

[Ardarell_Solo]

This problem has been getting threads and ingame discussions ever since launch, since it leaves room for interpretation and misinterpretation. That's why the best way to not make anyone angry is simply: Talk to the people in the group before any loot is granted.

 

Generally there's this dilemma: If you define "Need" as "needed for the current toon" and make that claim beat anything else, there's no incentive to run content on your best geared toon. It makes people only run with their lesser geared toons that acutally "needs" the item.

 

That's why in a lot of OPs runs on T3-M4 it's a common thing to just play by the rule "one token for each player, no matter if he already has it or not."* That especially makes sense in current HM Ops: In that case bringing my main or bringing a lesser geared alt might make the difference wether there will be any loot for anyone at all - especially, if every single player in the group has to make that decision.

 

So if I join a group of people I don't know well, I always ask: "I can bring a very well geared toon, if you're ok with me rolling on stuff that toon already has. If you're not cool with that, I will bring the lesser geared alt that I'm actually planning to gear with this run. Your choice."

 

*You can use the "one token each" method in FPs as well: Everone gets one chance on need loot drops from bosses. Whoever wins a need roll passes for everything else. You obviously have to communicate that before starting.

[FerkWork]

Then you are not the role you queued up for, switching roles within the FP should only be accepted when a new player has to be replaced.

 

I would vote kick you, not for taking the loot but for changing role.

 

Reading comprehension escapes you I see. It was an Op. I was in my role the whole time with one token per person and switched for 5 seconds to make a statement that if he wants to whine then he can tank it. Try again. And I run FPs with guildes so I wouldn't run with you anyways.

Edited March 25, 2015 by FerkWork

[Icestar]

This problem has been getting threads and ingame discussions ever since launch, since it leaves room for interpretation and misinterpretation. That's why the best way to not make anyone angry is simply: Talk to the people in the group before any loot is granted.

 

If that works it is great, but the thousands of posts regarding this games lootsystem proves otherwise.

[DeedeeSu]

If that works it is great, but the thousands of posts regarding this games lootsystem proves otherwise.

 

Thousands of posts from illogical players.

[Khaleijo]

If that works it is great, but the thousands of posts regarding this games lootsystem proves otherwise.

It has nothing to do with THIS game, you'll find discussions like this in the forums of every single MMO that has no player specific loot bags.

And the problem is not the lootsystem itself, there are just too many unwritten rules and no one bothers to communicate with his group the make clear which ones this particular group will follow. Everyone is using his ruleset without thinking about that there are many different ones, sometimes only different in minor details, sometimes clearly the opposite of each other.

As an example think about the rules about exonium and other blue crafting mats. On one server i play since release the unwritten rule in this particular case is for the whole group to roll greed, because everyone has need and use for it. But on the other server i play on, the common rule since release is to need on materials. So the same game, same situation but two different unwritten rules. Who is right here? Which rule is the one to follow?

You see that these so called unwritten rules aren't as set in stone as many plays tell they are. There are differences and they aren't as clear as so many players think.

 

(Many) Years ago these unwritten rules were more clear and probably more players followed them, but not because they were nicer, but because there was just no interest for loot of other classes.

There were more differences in healer, dps oder tank gear and there wasn't something like playing two or more roles, you had one class with one role. There was no reason to roll on dps stuff as a tank or healer, as it was useless to you and vice versa. And much more important, in these old times there was much less solo play even outside of dungeons and it was in your own interest that the other players would be geared properly, because then your group would be stronger as you would play together with them for more than just 30 minutes or an hour.

 

But since then, there have been changes, both in game mechanics as in the players mindset:

In the old games there was more group content than solo, there was a need to play in groups most of the time and therefor it was in everybodies interest that the group as a whole becomes stronger and everyone gets his share of the loot.

Today most players play solo 75-90% of the time spent ingame. Of course they measure their need considering how it helps them in this time and not how it helps the group or other players, they probably don't see again after an hour spent in a flashpoint or operation. Why should they bother? In pugs the others don't bother either if the tank takes 30 minutes more to do his daily quests alone, or if the healer takes longer for something. Questions for grouping outside of H2 or H4 or flashpoints up are usually dismissed with "you can do that alone", no matter who asks. So why should it be in someones interest to gear YOU instead of himself? Why are YOU more entitled than the guy next to you who did his share of the "work" too, just because he is in the wrong spec? Why no just let him roll too and let luck decide who is the winner today?

 

Especially if we are talking about loot in leveling flashpoints, i really don't get it anymore. Since BW changed the planetary comms into basic comms there is no need to get angry about a lost roll in a flashpoint, just go to the next planetary vendor and buy the mods/items you need. The group just helped you to get 10 or more of them, so use them to compensate your bad luck with rolls.

 

Personally, what i really hate about these discussions is, that the true intention of the propagated rulesets (those that involve "you have no right to roll, because...) are usually to get an advantage over the others. It has nothing to do with fairness, most of the time it's just *how to make sure that I get an item for sure and not someone else* It's just to get rid of as many competitors as possible.

You could handle this differently, like talking to your team mates, *i'm here for this and this, is there anyone else who wants it and do we find an agreement? * But no, there comes the big unwritten rule hammer *you have no right to get this, (insert any reason)...it's mine*

 

Fair would be that everyone who helped to get stuff, gets something out of it too. Fair would be that everyone has the chance to roll for something they have use for and the impartial dice rules. Fair is that after you already had something, you pass that the next one gets his share too.

 

That is why i really like the one person = one item/token system, it is fair as everyone who helps, gets something for it.

And before i get threats of "i'll ignore you'", I talk to my group if i want something and if someone else wins it so what? I could craft the mods myself, do another run in the FP or go and spend some basic comms at the fleet.

I play flashpoints for the fun of it, getting angry is no fun and bad for your health too. You get gear at every corner, why getting so angry over this?

If the other group members aren't nice or don't play together, like pulling ahead of the tank not healing breaking CC and all this stuff, go ahead and /ignore, but because you only lost a roll? A little bit exaggerated, if you ask me.

Edited March 26, 2015 by Khaleijo

[Icestar]

It has nothing to do with THIS game, you'll find discussions like this in the forums of every single MMO that has no player specific loot bags.

 

Yes, that is why so many MMOs actually have ingame rulesets for loot so nobody has to argue over them.

 

It does not matter that much anymore in this game for me like it used to, but I still think it is a valid point that thousands of posts has been written about this.

 

Nice to read a constructive reply, cheers

[Rasticles]

Personally, I could give a damn about your alt's, or companion's gear. All I care about is the toon in the group as it currently stands.

 

NEED if you need it for your current toon, greed the rest. We're all in the FP for gear, comms, and money. I'm not willing to part with vendor loot for YOUR alt/companion.

 

I geared up my alts and comps on my time, had no issues doing so, and I expect the same.

 

On the rare occasion we take a PUG into a group, it's explained up front.

[Shwarzchild]

Personally, I could give a damn about your alt's, or companion's gear. All I care about is the toon in the group as it currently stands.

 

NEED if you need it for your current toon, greed the rest. We're all in the FP for gear, comms, and money. I'm not willing to part with vendor loot for YOUR alt/companion.

 

I geared up my alts and comps on my time, had no issues doing so, and I expect the same.

 

On the rare occasion we take a PUG into a group, it's explained up front.

 

 

Can't it also be said that "I'm not willing to part with gear that helps my toons for your vendoring?" Just saying....you can't just believe there's one side to a coin. If you're needing on gear strictly to sell it, well that's something I don't really like, but that's your opinion and who am I to tell you otherwise. I'd rather see someone get the gear and transfer it to an alt so it gets put to use rather than fuel someone's finances.

[Dark_Mithrandir]

Personally, I could give a damn about your alt's, or companion's gear. All I care about is the toon in the group as it currently stands.

 

NEED if you need it for your current toon, greed the rest. We're all in the FP for gear, comms, and money. I'm not willing to part with vendor loot for YOUR alt/companion.

 

I geared up my alts and comps on my time, had no issues doing so, and I expect the same.

 

On the rare occasion we take a PUG into a group, it's explained up front.

 

Your loot rules are basically saying that the best thing the the players that join your groups can do is to go with his less geared alt.

 

I think you're pretty much alone in that man

[Katahn]

It is possible to earn 40 basic commendations a day every day of the week plus an additional 10 commendations once a week.

 

10 = Daily FP mission

10 = Complete a random regular FP

20 = Complete a random tactical FP

10 = Weekly FP mission

 

40 x 7 = 280 + 10 (weekly) = 290 commendations a week.

 

A full set of pre-50 commed out gear is 95 commendations.

 

I used to worry about this, but now... between the above numbers and the sheer number of varying opinions combined with new people just being genuinely ignorant... I give up.

 

If I see gear that's an upgrade for the class and role I'm playing I'll hit need on it. But honestly, even on a loss... does it really matter outside of operations (maybe)? And let's be honest, if you're PUGing an operation shouldn't the sanity-and-stress-saving assumption be that people are gonna roll need on stuff you don't think they have a right to? I mean I hate to say it, but in the online world people are apparently just selfish jerks and expecting anything else is asking for disappointment.

 

I *REALLY* wish Bioware would institute mandatory NBG (need before greed) rolling on random FPs and OPs but until they do I'm just going to assume people are selfish jerks and plan on working around ever being dependent on drops from that content for upgrades. Minus being a part of a premade or guild group that works the rules out in advance.

[HandOfKane]

No need for any artificial barriers. Just make all loot drops individual. Problem solved.

[randompassinduck]

I was in a rav 8man group with master looter on and for an earpiece noone rolled so the leader gave it away.

Then removed the roll of the guy who got it. He didn't even want it and for saying so the leader kicked him.

[Rolzhard]

Story modes have turned into a "Need" feeding frenzy.

 

Experienced and mature MMO'ers are turning into loot piranhas for a number of reasons all of which are BW's fault;

 

1. Token gear = set bonuses.

2. Token gear = unlettered mods. Unlettered mods = absolutely vital,especially for dps, because com gear sucks big time. You are not going to beat those enrage timers on HM with com gear.

3. Multiply this by the fact that people want/need lots of HM ready alts because the raid mechanics and class mechanics force class and spec changes. Melee to ranged. Healers to commando. Need lots of Vanguards and commando because = easy mode etc So people are needing on token gear because they need the mod for an alt^^ And they need lots of those mods because you can't get them anywhere else? You can't craft them. You can't buy them. Not in anyway that is meaningful.

 

Ergo you have these bug-eyed crazy SM runs .

 

And the problem is this crazy "need tokenz!!" mentality is seeping into formerly sane HM runs.

 

Come on BW! Sort this out. Can we have a sane/classy way of meeting HM raid requirements please without having to club our way through the feeding frenzy that is SM runs at the moment???

[Icestar]

Your loot rules are basically saying that the best thing the the players that join your groups can do is to go with his less geared alt.

 

I think you're pretty much alone in that man

 

No he is not, in my opinion since the need/greed system was introduced it is best to need for the current character the player uses and greed for alts/companions.

 

Everyone has a alt they have to gear up so with that logic everyone has to need on everything making the need and greed button useless.

 

I have seen lots of players recently need on everything and then try to trade the items with other players in the end of the ops, so this game has really turned into a need frenzy.

 

Come on BW! Sort this out. Can we have a sane/classy way of meeting HM raid requirements please without having to club our way through the feeding frenzy that is SM runs at the moment???

 

I do not think they care, perhaps they use this game as a social experiment to see how humans handle resources.

Edited April 11, 2015 by Icestar

[Kufuffelupagus]

I geared up my alts and comps on my time, had no issues doing so, and I expect the same.

 

What time do you think people are using when they are playing? Hammer time? These people ARE gearing their alts in their own time, fool.

 

If I'm going to put in time and effort and use up my toon's lockouts in an Ops run (not commenting on FPs), I am just as entitled as everyone else in the group to get something for my time. I will always follow set rules for runs when they are laid out at the beginning. When they are not outlined I ask. If I don't like them, I leave. And I agree with everyone saying that it's stupid to bring in undergeared alts that is going to make a run more difficult.

 

Who here is going to refuse to take a tank on their ops run because they won't come unless they get to roll on things? Because I sure as hell won't take my well-geared tank on your silly little run if I can't the opportunity to get something I need, for any of my characters. Did you think of that, people who oppose alt rolls? Oh and by the way, my tank is only geared because I have 10 other alts to help gear it. Can only do these Ops once per week, and you're not guaranteed to win anything any time you go.

 

Follow set rules, and accept that it is down to random numbers against whoever decides to roll within the rules. Accept that you may have to go on many runs to gear your character(s). And if you don't want to accept the way the game's Need/ Greed system works, by all means, go suggest something better in the Suggestion forum. But it's obvious what the majority of expectations here are.

 

Everyone has a alt they have to gear up so with that logic everyone has to need on everything making the need and greed button useless.

 

I have seen lots of players recently need on everything and then try to trade the items with other players in the end of the ops, so this game has really turned into a need frenzy.

 

Does it matter if everyone has to Need on everything, if they are following set rules that everyone has agreed to such as "1 token piece per person", for example?

 

Perhaps more people have finally figured out the way to increase their chances of winning something, which is to roll more often.

[Icestar]

Does it matter if everyone has to Need on everything, if they are following set rules that everyone has agreed to such as "1 token piece per person", for example?

 

IF lootrules are set and IF all members of the OPS follow them it is fine, it is what usually happens within guilds and is more rare with groupfinder PUGs.

 

What the community has been asking for the last three years (there are thousands of posts regarding this) is some system that handles loot distribution like many other MMOs already have in place. Many say communication is the key, but my experience states that no matter what players agree on there will always be someone that breaks the agreement for that little extra shiny that happened to drop.

Edited April 12, 2015 by Icestar