Link achievement -- a false security for ops

[Lirtoo]

There is a new trend now where you need to link achievement in order to join an ops. Because of this I have not been accepted in ToS, and it is a total barrier to get the achievements I need. It used to be enough to know tactics. When I tell the ops I know tactics by heart from youtube guides, I'm still rejected. It seems like they have forgotten they were in my situation once and instead were born with the skill. But the funny thing is that an ops who find members with achievement comes back to fleet to find new members after failing, which proves that an achievement is not a guarantee of succeeding a run. It is a false security.

 

A solution to do the ToS without achievement is to start the ops yourself. But you will risk getting flamed because some of the members are new. But that is a different thread. The point is, in my ToS ops, players with achievement have admitted that they have not defeated e.g. Underlurker in a long time. So again, achievement is a false security. Stop asking for it and get those who knows tactics instead.

[FerkWork]

But yes make your ops if you do not agree with the parameters set worth by the others. Pugs are weird and full of insecure people who can't handle a wipe without blaming others. The biggest problem I see using achievements to measure experience with a toon and I find weird that no one has pointed out is that since achievements are legacy, you don't know which toon they did it on. I may have beaten ToS as a DPS but if I get on my healer you have no way of knowing that I didn't beat it with my healer. But I digress Edited March 16, 2015 by FerkWork

[Lirtoo]

I see it as an advantage that the achievement is legacy. Knowing the tactics works for all roles I think, as long as your gear meets the requirements. My main alt is a shadow dps, but got e.g the sword squadron achievement from my healer. However, I rather be on my shadow when I meet the lurker, but that has not happened yet. Edited March 16, 2015 by Lirtoo

[Shwarzchild]

I see it as an advantage that the achievement is legacy. Knowing the tactics works for all roles I think, as long as your gear meets the requirements. My main alt is a shadow dps, but got e.g the sword squadron achievement from my healer. However, I rather be on my shadow when I meet the lurker, but that has not happened yet.

 

Knowing the general tactics of a fight, and being comfortable with the pace of some of the fights is really important no doubt. But, legacy wide still won't tell you if your dps values are sufficient for the content you're trying to run, or if your tanking is worthwhile in holding threat, or if your heals are great or insufficient.

 

I don't think there's really any "good" way to judge someone before a fight starts to be honest. I'll form pugs, and if I've done them before I have some gear requirements that simply make me feel better, and if someone has said they've completed the raid before I'll note that to myself and use them as a sounding board if I get hazy on something.

 

Gear checks and Achievement checks are subjective in nature, and are there simply to make the raid leader more comfortable with people he or she doesn't know at all. It gives them a foundation to stand on which is important for some, and less so for others. Afterall, none of us want to stop people from having fun. We're all just trying to find that happy medium where we are going to have our best shot at our fun while also giving someone else their best shot at their fun.

 

edit: Join a guild, do hardmode runs of dread palace and dread fortress. Do Ravagers and ToS on story mode if you haven't already, and if the raid leader asks for your achievements show him those. If they don't accept you then oh well move on and wait until the next pug group forms. There's plenty that do form on Pot5. If someone linked hardmode raid achievements to me as well as story mode experience for the next stuff I'd take them along without a question. If it were ToS hardmode, ehhh I don't know. That one is pretty tough to be confident a pug group could even get past the walkers. That's really still in guild progression territory, and not pug territory.

Edited March 16, 2015 by Shwarzchild

[JouerTue]

there are still a lot of pugs not demanding achievment. also having all the gear necessary helps..i mean if you join and seem decently geared you shouldn't get kicked..on the other hand if you group and have like 44k with unaugmented 186 set..try to join some kind of guild run or stick with a pug not requiring achievements while they cycle through the other bads that joined and get your kill and achievement.

[Joran-Koon]

This isn't a "new" trend btw. Its been here for a long time. It's just a simple way for pugs to identify experience. If you've seen it, whether it be a dps heal or tank, you've seen it. You know what to expect. That gives someone you've never met more confidence in you than what your word can convince them.

 

Same with a job, employers like to see experience, doesn't mean you'll be down right amazing, but it's a start. Breaking into that can be hard (here and in RL) but it is what it is. Best advice, find some friends, down the op, get your cheevos so pugging can be easier.

[Declan_Vee]

Just to add another perspective on achievements. My Underlurker (and other ToS sm bosses) achievement was obtained when I was playing a spec I wasn't terribly familiar with in the wrong gear (for spec) and while I was drunk off my face. While it's certainly hard carry for some fights, it is doable; never underestimate the power of sage rescue.

[jade_de_aguilera]

* have achievement* IS FAKE: simple, lest say if i have achievement for DF NiM on my tank, this does not mean that i can do OK on any other char.

* know tactics* IS FAKE - couse there are different tactics and expecting people to read you mind and do whatever you expect them to do is not realistic

* and my all the time favorite is looking at people HP:

once was kicked before i had the chance to put my gear on &

one time i have seen a healer with end ehn (couse otherwise they dont take him in pug gr)

 

The only thing that i really like in pug 3.0 is the loot rules (at least on the TRE)

[darthtrunkmonkey]

I haven't run a raid in quite some time and its for this sole reason that I refuse to do so as well, everyone that requires a link for an op is contributing to the elitism that is ruining the fun value. Ops used to require gear/voice and have a good time, even if you couldn't talk most required you to listen. People have gotten lazy, instead of typing a few extra words and putting some effort in they type link cheeve and hope for the best.

 

I honestly don't even understand the reasoning behind the link cheeve craze either, there is no sound logic behind it period. Other then the laziness has increased.

 

* have achievement* IS FAKE: simple, lest say if i have achievement for DF NiM on my tank, this does not mean that i can do OK on any other char.

* know tactics* IS FAKE - couse there are different tactics and expecting people to read you mind and do whatever you expect them to do is not realistic

* and my all the time favorite is looking at people HP:

once was kicked before i had the chance to put my gear on &

one time i have seen a healer with end ehn (couse otherwise they dont take him in pug gr)

 

The only thing that i really like in pug 3.0 is the loot rules (at least on the TRE)

 

I don't know if my thread still exists but back at 55 i was kicked from a tactical because i was 55...not because of my gear or anything. If I remember right the reason given was exactly that "your level 55".

Edited March 17, 2015 by darthtrunkmonkey

[JouerTue]

 

The only thing that i really like in pug 3.0 is the loot rules (at least on the TRE)

 

yes it's awesome. about achievements again is a flase perception of having a competent group but helps.

once we had a UL run with really good players, we executed mechanics perfectly but being monday night we all had so filthy alts that had to give up..but you are sure that the key important points of a fight are followed: hiding behind rocks, don't go behind the tank, interupt corruptors etc.

[Kufuffelupagus]

It seems like they have forgotten they were in my situation once and instead were born with the skill.

 

I've never been in your situation. I joined a guild before I reached Level 50 and have run ops with them or other friends ever since, getting achievements since they were implemented. I haven't applied for any groups that are asking for achievements that I don't have. I'm sure I'm not the only one.

 

So again, achievement is a false security. Stop asking for it and get those who knows tactics instead.

 

To me, having it means that person has successfully completed the fight at least once. You don't know how well they did it, or what role, but you also don't know how much some stranger without the achievement really knows about the fight, or how well they really play their class, until you see it yourself.

 

I have stuck through terrible runs with multiple roster changes and I have helped new people through before, I am not entirely averse to the idea. However, I do not have all day every day to play this game and I would like to enjoy some of my time and get something other than repair bills out of it... So I prefer joining runs that are full of people who have done it before. And when I am short on time I will advertise asking for achievements.

 

The key to breaking through here, as Kalizo said, is knowing someone. You could run with someone you know who will take you, or have a mutual acquaintance vouch for you. I would personally be happy with either happening in my ops group.

[Jerba]

We're in the interesting situation now where the operations have become PuGable as long as everyone knows what to do but you cannot carry along new players unless you take the time to explain everything to them. When looking at previous operations (TFB/S&V/DF/DP), they were not as difficult and you could take along new players without risking the raid to wipe.

 

Unfortunately, these kind of players that organize a run and ask for achievements are here to stay and without them, there wouldn't be that many PuG runs. The good raid leaders are few and far in between compared to the large amount of players. It takes a lot of work to become a good raid leader but many players think that just inviting everyone to a group and distributing the loot is everything you need to do. It starts with explaining the strategy because even when everyone knows the operation, you need to know who goes left, who goes right etc. Then, the raid leader is also responsible for making calls throughout the fight and adjusting the strategy as necessary when something goes wrong.

 

Each week, I try to organize a Ravagers SM run where I specifically only want to take along players who are new to the operation and explain the bosses to them, but it doesn't make much of a difference when there are so many other PuG runs with bad raid leaders.

Edited March 17, 2015 by Jerba

[Snean]

Achivment mean nothing.

Personally repeatedly pulled noob tank in ToS solo tanking all bosses since Squadron (2nd tank always die in aoe).

Several times dragged noob dps to past uanderlurker. According to estimates some dps make less than 2k.

They all have achivment now. But it fake.

I prefer to look at the old ops achivment opsov. Time-run DF / DP - and i take even poorly dressed twinks. Because I know they will be given a lot more than others. 4/5 current hm - i know that they be perfect in sm.

[fire-breath]

I hope you are not using 4/5 as a hard limit lolz.

Anyways. Point of asking for achievements is to make it so that you have a greater chance on clearing it. At least they demonstrated that they vaguely know the difference between left and right (surprisingly a lot of people don't).

When not asking for an achievement you will have a higher chance on getting people in who will wipe the group due to the unwillingness to learn tactics ect. This is a huge generalisation but again. Achievements are giving a higher chance on succes. Maybe less than people would hope for but still .....

 

Another thing which creates wipes is using different tactics when the opsleader hasnt called out the specifics. For example at Operator IX I am used to clearing the adds in mid WHILE downing cores instead of cleaning all up afterwards. When you swap sides you throw an AoE or a dot while the tanks (or dps in mid) kills the rest off.

 

After a wipe because we failed orange (no clue why the blue adds werent dead yet since we had 2 tanks in mid fighting them) I hinted that people might not be noobs but just used to different tactics. If I would have know they wanted to clear all adds up I would have helped in mid instead of assuming orange clicked.

 

Fun fact is that for teling this to the opsleader I got on his ignore list. Might also have been because I asked him to lay off with his usage of 1,5 F-word in each sentence.

 

Point being. Even when a lot of people know what to do you might still wipe due to people each using a different tactic.

[carlykupsbailey]

As someone who often pugs to get gear (mostly left side) for alts, this is honestly something I'm so tired of hearing. Yes, I always ask for the achievement. Yes, sometimes I still run into people who mess up the run even though they have the achievement. It is completely possible to get carried through and get the achievement.

 

However, I have had COMPLETELY fail runs because I've given in and brought in someone who doesn't have the achievement. When I'm pugging, it's usually when I have free time and I just want a quick SM run to get gear. I don't want to sit down and progress through things that I've already done, I'm sorry, it's just not fun. I don't want to spend 10 minutes between each boss telling people what to do. I don't want to wipe on underlurker 10 times because someone can't understand that they need to stand in the cross. I also don't want to get in voice in order to have to teach someone new fights. This is why I create the group and ask for the achievement, because I personally don't want to deal with that so I put myself in control. I don't jump into groups that don't ask for an achievement and force them to ask for one. It's the ops leader's prerogative whether or not they ask for it, and it's your prerogative whether or not you join.

 

I'm tired of hearing the fact that it's elitest to ask for an achievement. No, it's not. I'm not asking you to have a 6 piece set bonus. I'm not asking you to have the correct distribution of stats or be an expert at your class or at the game. All I'm asking is that you have done the fights. As a healer, seeing the videos does not fully prepare you the fight. There are things you don't always see because the fight is being done correctly by people who know how to do it. They're already compensating for incoming damage, something that someone who hadn't been in the op wouldn't be doing.

 

In general, the only reason I ask for an achievement is for my own convenience. I'm starting the group, and because of that I can start it however I want to. Yes, we were all there and we all once didn't clear it. However, we got groups together and PROGRESSED through it. No, progression is not always in HM or NiM. Some people progress through SM. That seems to be the level that you're at so that's what I would recommend. Find a group of people to progress through it together. But expecting other people to teach you isn't really fair to them.

 

OK. rant over. I just had to get that out.

Edited March 17, 2015 by carlykupsbailey

[Excise]

Achievement linking isn't perfect at determining if someone knows a fight. Achievement linking isn't even close to perfect at determining if someone knows a fight.

 

Buuuuut it's better than nothing and I don't really blame PuG Op leaders for asking for it. The chances are definitely better that someone will know the fight if they also have the achievement.

 

It does create a barrier to entry, unfortunately, but others in this thread have given good advice to getting around that. Joining a guild that does raids really is the best option.