ImNotFatImObese Posted March 10, 2015 Share Posted March 10, 2015 (edited) I am laughing right now. Most complaints come from the elitists on PVE servers. They love to yell at the first to die and those getting in ranked without maxed PVE gear that is fully augmented. Far as I am concerned anyone who pays a sub has right to PVP on a PVE server. These PVP elitist on PVE servers need to go play on a PVP server and see how "elite" they are. They won't though cause they will get owned which is why these elitists are doing the grieving on the PVE servers putting others down which is bullying which the Developers including Eric encourages and rewards. If someone goes into PVP and struggles then quit being the bully and give them pointers (check out their gear, suggest which way to spec for their class, help them). Just cause one dies quick does not mean they are win-trading. That is the dumbest thing ever to say PVP. I see a lot of people who put people on ignore cause someone wants to bad mouth others or do nothing but complain during the PVP match (ranked and non ranked). Then after they put the bully on ignore they stop trying cause instead of working together they want the person crying and complaining to lose so they stop getting in queue and ruining the fun for others. Eric and the other developers need to go check out stopbullying.gov . Edited March 10, 2015 by ImNotFatImObese Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Soul_of_Flames Posted March 10, 2015 Share Posted March 10, 2015 (edited) I got an email accusing me of win trading. I guess if you win a lot in group ranked against 8-10 different teams that means win trading? Piece of **** devs tbh. Whatever metrics they are using fail hard. Ask any team on pot5 if Hakuna win trades. I knew crap like that was going to happen. But no, when I brought it up, I got flamed for it. Edited March 10, 2015 by Soul_of_Flames Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kurin Posted March 10, 2015 Share Posted March 10, 2015 Eric, So, in case you were wondering, as a player, I would fully endorse a much heavier handed approach to this form of cheating. Seriously, much heavier handed. I don't see the need to pull punches here. Be aggressive, as the cheating of the few so greatly affects the fun of the many (which you must already understand, and far, far more so than does PVE exploiting, where a lighter handed approach could potentially be viable). IMO, the result of your actions needs to be such that a cheater isn't able to be creative and still cheat. It needs to hit them hard, square in the center of their chest, and straight up stop them from cheating. Honestly...a warning, doesn't sound like it's going to slow enough ppl down...anyone cheating now, that doesn't get a warning knows they can keep on cheating. And anyone that gets a warning is now aware they have to get more creative (start to look just a little more legit). How about starting with 3 days, and an immediate 0 rating? You may smack an innocent...so be sure to give the presumed guilty a realistic way to redeem themselves (perhaps their internet connection has been truly problematic). Anyway, if you were wonder what THIS player would like to see...that's it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
raidlegend Posted March 10, 2015 Share Posted March 10, 2015 I dont think that most of the complaints are coming from PVE servers tho and since you also know who JMD is I am assuming you are on JC as well. At least for JC, aside from that 1 guild who was win trading in previous seasons, I dont really see too many ppl intentionally throwing matches or trolling. I do see ppl queuing without pvp gear and getting globaled and then getting upset bc someone told them off. Now on the Bastion, which is a PVP server, there are a few ppl who troll and stay in stealth the whole time to intentionally lose or leave after 1 round if they die or like the other day, queue as a tank in dps gear and stance with no intent to tank/use guard. All we can do as a community is report when we see legitimate instances of trolling/grieving in ranked and leave it to the Devs to determine the punishment. At least there is communication i guess? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
EnzoForMe Posted March 10, 2015 Share Posted March 10, 2015 (edited) Eric, So, in case you were wondering, as a player, I would fully endorse a much heavier handed approach to this form of cheating. Seriously, much heavier handed. I don't see the need to pull punches here. Be aggressive, as the cheating of the few so greatly affects the fun of the many (which you must already understand, and far, far more so than does PVE exploiting, where a lighter handed approach could potentially be viable). IMO, the result of your actions needs to be such that a cheater isn't able to be creative and still cheat. It needs to hit them hard, square in the center of their chest, and straight up stop them from cheating. Honestly...a warning, doesn't sound like it's going to slow enough ppl down...anyone cheating now, that doesn't get a warning knows they can keep on cheating. And anyone that gets a warning is now aware they have to get more creative (start to look just a little more legit). How about starting with 3 days, and an immediate 0 rating? You may smack an innocent...so be sure to give the presumed guilty a realistic way to redeem themselves (perhaps their internet connection has been truly problematic). Anyway, if you were wonder what THIS player would like to see...that's it. Yeah because their metrics are accurate and are actually catching cheaters, not just players that dominate and win a lot. It took a coordinated effort from 10-15 players to get 1 person banned from POt5 for the season during season 2/3 who was using 3 accounts to throw games for his operative. He would queue on pub side with his scoundrel and play on his operative at the same time. It took us more than an entire season to get rid of this ************ and I saw him log in on one of his accounts the other day. It was a temporary ban. THAT"s how hard it is to get rid of the ACTUAL cheaters and it's not even PERMANENT. This guy single handedly caused 2 factions to stop q'ing solo ranked when he was on. Edited March 10, 2015 by EnzoForMe Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DarthOvertone Posted March 10, 2015 Share Posted March 10, 2015 What he's also saying, is that group ranked is where the true spirit of arenas are. Group ranked is currently the only fail-safe from the douchebaggery that plagues solo-que, and we should quit complaining, get a group, and get in the freaking ring. I'm with you on this 100%. Yet my brother and I can't get a team together for 4s. As hard as we try. It's crazy. During Preseason, we were able to put together a team. We've talked to numerous peeps in guild and out, all stating they want to run Ranked. But now that S4 has started, all these peeps either show up only once a week or they've completely vanished. Part of this is on BW, but part of it is just on the players for being cowardly v-g*ys. It's so annoying. Shouldn't be this d*mn difficult to get 4 people together. Getting a new team together is more of a task than grinding gear ffs. Grant points only for a win, nothing for a loss. More players will que up and trolls will cease to exist. Couple that with increased rewards for grouped ranked. This would be an outstanding change, and it would dramatically change participation in Ranked overnight. The ELO system is pure agony for numerous reasons, and the matchmaking system is terrible. Scrapping the current ELO system for a simpler one that gives you points for winning would be awesome. 2) you mention griefers, those that join only to quit or are ill-equipped to handle ranked. What about making a pre-requisite to enter. 2018 min expertise A gear check is absolutely necessary for all Ranked participation. It would not only gate some of the trolls, but it would dramatically improve the quality of matches themselves. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ImNotFatImObese Posted March 10, 2015 Share Posted March 10, 2015 I do agree a full expertise rating should be required for ranked PVP. I have seen some people who are not in full Expertise of 2018 get into ranked. I myself have full expertise and at least the 168 set and been experimenting with different things and swapping around mods and enhancements in ranked as it is indeed a different ball game than non ranked. Going into ranked and getting killed first or having low dps or heals challenges me to work toward being better. To who said they don't know who JMD is he is the pub side entertainment on JC as Nexi is the imp side entertainment on JC. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Banthabreeder Posted March 10, 2015 Share Posted March 10, 2015 So basically it's, "STOP or well say STOP again". Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
buckman Posted March 10, 2015 Share Posted March 10, 2015 Win-traders/exploiters have already gotten their rating. Too late to give warnings, devs. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dev Post EricMusco Posted March 10, 2015 Author Dev Post Share Posted March 10, 2015 I got an email accusing me of win trading. I guess if you win a lot in group ranked against 8-10 different teams that means win trading? Hey Enzo, Thank you for bringing this to your attention. Our goal is to keep the spirit of Ranked in place and to remove win-traders and griefers from the mix. We apologize if you got caught in the crossfire. While I can’t go into detail, what I can tell you is this: in our data, we use multiple steps of validation to put together as many pieces as possible to demonstrate how a player is win-trading. We’re still refining the analysis, so it is very possible, a legitimate player could receive a warning. It’s one of the primary reasons we elected to pre-announce what we were going to do and the actions we were taking. The good news is you only received a warning! No action will take place with your or any other player’s accounts without deeper investigation. Our analytics and combat teams are sifting through the data surrounding Ranked play and that provide guidance about any future actions. We want PvP to be a fun and competitive part of our game! The last thing we want to do is destroy the enjoyment for everyone. -eric Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ThirdDementor Posted March 10, 2015 Share Posted March 10, 2015 Hey folks, As promised, we want to keep you informed on what we are doing about those win-traders and trolls in Ranked PvP. Here is what is happening right now: Win-traders – We have been reviewing multiple sets of data, along with the private reports that many of you have been sending to the team. Any player who, through validating data, is win-trading is receiving will be receiving at a minimum, a warning. Not only are we warning these users to stop what they are doing, continued win-trading will lead to greater actions including resetting their ratings and suspension time.Griefer – Those players that seem to have that one singular purpose, to ruin the spirit of Ranked PvP. They refuse to participate, or they leave the match altogether. Those players will be receiving anything from a warning to suspension time based on the severity of their actions. We will work to refine our data and our validation around players partaking in these actions throughout the Season. Those who feel the need to try to trade their way to the top, or try to ruin that experience for others will be actioned appropriately. Thank you all for your continued reports around these issues. Get in there and fight each other as Baron Deathmark intended. See you in the Arena. -eric Musco, you finally let your hair down and typed the word 'trolls' without quotation marks! Oh, how I longed for this day. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ImNotFatImObese Posted March 10, 2015 Share Posted March 10, 2015 Caught in the crossfire? Sounds like their Data is flawed just like their updates and patches. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
buckman Posted March 10, 2015 Share Posted March 10, 2015 I retract my previous statement after seeing Caprica's post and how badly the devs borked this thing. I can vouch that Caprica's team does not win trade. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
foxmob Posted March 10, 2015 Share Posted March 10, 2015 I got an email accusing me of win trading. I guess if you win a lot in group ranked against 8-10 different teams that means win trading? Piece of **** devs tbh. Whatever metrics they are using fail hard. Ask any team on pot5 if Hakuna win trades. can't say anything about your current guild, but you were one of the only players I remember who actually got on another team and helped them compete against, and even beat, your own guild in rated. I think it was <Prime Defense> you helped beat <Uncensored> in a NC? anyway, it's kind of funny that they would flag you. I have to imagine what's going on now is that ppl are taking the piss on anyone they don't like by reporting them as win trading. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
EnzoForMe Posted March 10, 2015 Share Posted March 10, 2015 Hey Enzo, Thank you for bringing this to your attention. Our goal is to keep the spirit of Ranked in place and to remove win-traders and griefers from the mix. We apologize if you got caught in the crossfire. While I can’t go into detail, what I can tell you is this: in our data, we use multiple steps of validation to put together as many pieces as possible to demonstrate how a player is win-trading. We’re still refining the analysis, so it is very possible, a legitimate player could receive a warning. It’s one of the primary reasons we elected to pre-announce what we were going to do and the actions we were taking. The good news is you only received a warning! No action will take place with your or any other player’s accounts without deeper investigation. Our analytics and combat teams are sifting through the data surrounding Ranked play and that provide guidance about any future actions. We want PvP to be a fun and competitive part of our game! The last thing we want to do is destroy the enjoyment for everyone. -eric I don't mean to lash out Eric, but I have built up frustration on this topic for a few seasons now. I was already "caught in the crossfire" in season 2 when my gunslinger, Caprica with alt 161 on the i was removed from the leaderbaords with 2200 rating and a couple hundred wins. My sniper is still there with 2650 rating during the same season. I never received an explanation, and I still retain my "All-galaxy gunslinger" title. When I tried to post this in the customer service section, I received a forum warning for SPAM. At this point, your crossfire would be shooting a dead corpse. I just ask that you really take a look at how you are approaching getting rid of WTs and cheaters. I despise them and would support permanent bans, but your current data will harm top players on the way. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DomiSotto Posted March 10, 2015 Share Posted March 10, 2015 I hope that they do not apply the same sieve to the Team Ranked as they do to the solo queue. This approach is bound to generate false positives, and knock the heads off the tallest dandelions. Fingers crossed that the review will benefit the ranked culture in the end after the team tunes their algorithms. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dev Post EricMusco Posted March 10, 2015 Author Dev Post Share Posted March 10, 2015 I don't mean to lash out Eric, but I have built up frustration on this topic for a few seasons now. I was already "caught in the crossfire" in season 2 when my gunslinger, Caprica with alt 161 on the i was removed from the leaderbaords with 2200 rating and a couple hundred wins. My sniper is still there with 2650 rating during the same season. I never received an explanation, and I still retain my "All-galaxy gunslinger" title. When I tried to post this in the customer service section, I received a forum warning for SPAM. At this point, your crossfire would be shooting a dead corpse. I just ask that you really take a look at how you are approaching getting rid of WTs and cheaters. I despise them and would support permanent bans, but your current data will harm top players on the way. Fair enough, and I appreciate all of the information you have provided around your account and your characters in this thread. I will be passing it all on to be looked into. I think we can all agree we want the bad seeds out of Ranked, but we don't want to hit innocent folks along the way. -eric Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
EnzoForMe Posted March 10, 2015 Share Posted March 10, 2015 (edited) can't say anything about your current guild, but you were one of the only players I remember who actually got on another team and helped them compete against, and even beat, your own guild in rated. I think it was <Prime Defense> you helped beat <Uncensored> in a NC? anyway, it's kind of funny that they would flag you. I have to imagine what's going on now is that ppl are taking the piss on anyone they don't like by reporting them as win trading. Heh you are right. Only a true Jedi Cov vet would remember that. I helped coordinate and played on a PD team vs uncensored in the days of 8s when Uncensored was the dominant team and we did end up winning. Needless to say my unc guildies weren't thrilled with me. But I've always done what I can to support competitive ranked. And that doesn't mean farming another team that wants to genuinely get better, it means helping them and playing on their team if possible. Edited March 10, 2015 by EnzoForMe Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DethlaHadyn Posted March 10, 2015 Share Posted March 10, 2015 Caught in the crossfire? Sounds like their Data is flawed just like their updates and patches. Well, another way to spot "win trading" as it were, would be better suited to those who get a large amount of wins in like 1 day of ranked.......and never que again. It's like their goal of ranked is to get the rewards, then get out. I can say that I've seen Enzo in the ring a lot since I moved a toon to pot5 (I don't know him from a hole in the ground), so he's obviously queing ranked because he likes pvp...period. Eric, You should pass the message on to your teams to analyze the players who get a large amount of wins all at once, and then stop playing. I'd say that is the easiest way. It's like, "....what? you got 30 wins in one day?? I haven't seen 30 pops in one week on the (XXX XXXX XXXX) server!! When the hell were you qued up?" Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dev Post EricMusco Posted March 10, 2015 Author Dev Post Share Posted March 10, 2015 (edited) So eric what is stopping people from win-trading, getting to the required rating, stopping when the warning arrives, and wait for get the rewards at the end of season ? Shouldn't there be a reset of ratings right immediately ? Hey znihilist, Great question! The warning's purpose is to raise awareness to those players and to hopefully curb their behavior. If someone stops that behavior after receiving the warning it doesn't mean they escape further action. We will be continually investigating all accounts and as we fully verify their actions, they will see their ratings reset, and possible further actions beyond that. Basically, if a player is win-trading, they could see actions now, throughout the season, or at the end of the Season. A warning does not mean the case is closed. -eric Edited March 10, 2015 by EricMusco Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mpatsos Posted March 10, 2015 Share Posted March 10, 2015 I think this right here is why a lot of people don't que ranked, myself included... Its hard enough to get a decent rating and the fear of being accused of win trading just adds to it... hopefully going forward players will have confidence in ranked as a fair system to join. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dev Post EricMusco Posted March 10, 2015 Author Dev Post Share Posted March 10, 2015 I think this right here is why a lot of people don't que ranked, myself included... Its hard enough to get a decent rating and the fear of being accused of win trading just adds to it... hopefully going forward players will have confidence in ranked as a fair system to join. I do want to point out that our criteria for win-trading is data based. Reports help us in that they give us people to analyze for potential win-traders. Understand though that we will only warn/action a player based completely on data we can verify and not reports alone. -eric Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
higginsjf Posted March 10, 2015 Share Posted March 10, 2015 I have to say this time around not steeped in to any pvp big reason the load time for me is off i can here the game before i see it then load in to be set back to where i tried to get in/ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DethlaHadyn Posted March 10, 2015 Share Posted March 10, 2015 I kind of expected more from the regular updates you promised throughout the season. While you probably can't give out exact player numbers, at least some statistics would be nice - handful of cheaters, dozens of cheaters, hundreds of cheaters? This just sounds like one of the standard yellow posts we get in the other threads and not a post that took a lot of time to research and write. It is concerning to read that legitimate players were hit as well, so I checked my mailbox but fortunately did not get a warning. I guess my rating is average, neither too low nor too high, and they only investigate players on the ends of the rating scale. I guess it is a good sign that they rather warn too many players than too little, but I also want to see more action taken that shows an impact on my server. I agree. When 10 matches don't give enough data to reset the rating, change the rewards so they require more than 10 matches. A player who got lucky in 10 matches will have enough rating for the middle tier but it doesn't say much about his skill. I made a suggestion to ignore the rating altogether and tie the rewards to the number of wins but I kind of lost hope they'll ever make a change to the reward structure. Oh absolutely. Even if your suggested number values were tweaked, I mean we log to fight... Right? You make larger numbered win tiers for overall, but then seperate packets for consecutive wins/wins achieved in a day, etc. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mpatsos Posted March 10, 2015 Share Posted March 10, 2015 Ok will take note that data is needed and will be a team player, thanks Eric! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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