How not to chase a GS...

[Bolo_Yeung]

 

After 30 seconds I was laughing too hard and my aim suffered Anyway, that was funny, Respect to the GS pilot , laughs on me

[JonnyRay]

That was awesome.

[Drakkolich]

Awesome! His defensive flying was superb. This is a great example of how little a Gunship can do once an evasion Scout is on him. The only possible way he was even able to take a shot at you was once he got an Engine overcharge ran more then 15k away from you and turned around and even then had to shoot threw Distortion and Running interference. Had you had Barrel Roll like I run even with the Engine Overcharge he still wouldn't have gotten away, that's how one sided that match up is.

[Sathid]

i bet he was like "This just wont stop!"

[Nemarus]

Awesome! His defensive flying was superb. This is a great example of how little a Gunship can do once an evasion Scout is on him. The only possible way he was even able to take a shot at you was once he got an Engine overcharge ran more then 15k away from you and turned around and even then had to shoot threw Distortion and Running interference. Had you had Barrel Roll like I run even with the Engine Overcharge he still wouldn't have gotten away, that's how one sided that match up is.

 

Or the Gunship could've just used Feedback Shield. Barrel Roll to gain distance, turn around, Feedback Shield, BLC. Dead Flashfire. Heck, with that much evasive flying skill, he could've gotten like 10 Feedback Shield hits off on the pursuer.

 

Or, if the Gunship had had a single ally willing to help him... a Bomber, another Gunship, another Scout... Dead Flashfire.

[Bolo_Yeung]

Exactly. Now, I'd like to remind you of our 'GS vs scout' discussion

Also, please notice that I was shoot twice while going under full evasion mode (DF+RI). So much about 'unhittable' scouts.

[ALaggyGrunt]

That match-up is supposed to be one-sided. Once something (scout, or even striker) gets too close, the GS should have to run, and eventually lose.

 

Both of you were pretty good at flying, just you were... a bad shot.

[MaximilianPower]

That's our Saevius! FWIW, he's definitely one of the best (if not THE best) on JC at exactly this kind of thing. nyghtrunner will be along shortly to tell you all how tough it is to nail this guy.

 

Loved the video, thanks for posting. I'll mention it to him next time I see him in game.

[WiseStranger]

 

After 30 seconds I was laughing too hard and my aim suffered Anyway, that was funny, Respect to the GS pilot , laughs on me

 

All I see here is that the type 1 gunship pilot is a much better pilot than the type 2 scout pilot. So it's not the issue of T2 scout vs T1 gunship. It's the issue of skill and excuses. The reason you died there was because you decided to stay in the open instead of seeking cover when the gunship vanished at 15 km mark. Learn from your mistakes and get better.

[ThutmoseV]

But the chase was worthwhile even though he eventually killed you. If he had any sort of decent position, he could have gotten off a half dozen or more railgun shots in that time if he wasn't running away.

[RatPoison]

All I see here is that the type 1 gunship pilot is a much better pilot than the type 2 scout pilot. So it's not the issue of T2 scout vs T1 gunship. It's the issue of skill and excuses. The reason you died there was because you decided to stay in the open instead of seeking cover when the gunship vanished at 15 km mark. Learn from your mistakes and get better.

 

That's a bit harsh. I don't think the OP made this thread to declare something like "OMG GS OP!"... I think he was enamored with my tailpipes and short of me taking advantage of his lack of barrel roll and persistence, he did an admirable job in trying to chase me down. And Drako calls it correctly... he was flying well enough and out turning me that I didn't have an opportunity to fight back in close quarters. He had the advantage, and had I not put all my attention towards surviving... I'd likely have died. Heck, it was only through a bit of luck that my burst (+wingman) killed him despite his distortion field and interference.

 

i bet he was like "This just wont stop!"

 

You're not far from the truth. When a little bit of latency had me blow my disto late on a cluster, and then to get blasted by another cluster putting my hull into the red... I figured the game of cat and mouse needed to end. Up until that point, I was just seeing how long it would go and wondering how much time he'd invest before deciding the juice wasn't worth the squeeze (or if my hapless team would come to my rescue). As Drakolich noted, I was basically eliminated from the fight, but the match was so lopsided... that I didn't bother trying other tactics or killing him sooner as I was more entertained by the chase.

 

 

After 30 seconds I was laughing too hard and my aim suffered Anyway, that was funny, Respect to the GS pilot , laughs on me

 

Heh. Well, to say the least... the chase was entertaining. Short of some missile lock noises towards the start of it... it didn't seem like my teammates were paying you much attention. And fortunately for me, the couple of guys that started chasing me around initially peeled off leaving just us. Anywho, by the time we got done hugging it out, the match was well out of reach for anything I could have done... especially knowing I'd likely get stuck in another chase around the map. So to that extent, you're right... I just hung out not far off from where your space debris was watching things tick off while keeping my firing lanes open. It was a decent chase, and no doubt... the burst that finished you was lucky with all your evasion buffs going.

 

Or the Gunship could've just used Feedback Shield. Barrel Roll to gain distance, turn around, Feedback Shield, BLC. Dead Flashfire. Heck, with that much evasive flying skill, he could've gotten like 10 Feedback Shield hits off on the pursuer.

 

Or, if the Gunship had had a single ally willing to help him... a Bomber, another Gunship, another Scout... Dead Flashfire.

 

As you note, in a proper match I would have had some peels from teammates and that works out well enough for me. I personally find feedback is just far more effective against scout pilots who are impatient or newbies.

 

My perspective goes like this; a scout with clusters can spam a distortion field-less, feedback-using GS to death and if they're on point, abstain from using blasters till they have front shields or the feedback shield has worn off. I enjoy it when a feedback shield kills an annoying scout, but as a gunship, distortion field proves to be far more effective for me in the way I offensively fly a gunship. Not having to break aim to break a missile lock, being able to get an edge in a GS duel, and being able to survive cluster spam when coupled with evasive flying is why I opt to use distortion field.

 

...

 

Anywho, thanks for pointing this out Zuck, and thanks for sharing Bolo.

Edited February 26, 2015 by RatPoison

[WiseStranger]

That's a bit harsh. I don't think the OP made this thread to declare something like "OMG GS OP!"... I think he was enamored with my tailpipes and short of me taking advantage of his lack of barrel roll and persistence, he did an admirable job in trying to chase me down. And Drako calls it correctly... he was flying well enough and out turning me that I didn't have an opportunity to fight back in close quarters. He had the advantage, and had I not put all my attention towards surviving... I'd likely have died. Heck, it was only through a bit of luck that my burst (+wingman) killed him despite his distortion field and interference.

 

He complains about gunships a bit too much, so I find what I said warranted. You outskilled him by a large margin, because if both of you were equals, he would have killed you much much faster.

 

It's not that hard to out turn a type 1 gunship as a type 2 scout. Gunship with extra turning still have less turning power than a stock scout.

 

Spamming clusters isn't that hard either.

 

It was super obvious that he should not have engaged you at the end, considering you vanished from his screen because you have at least some sensor dampening if not both component and crew. Correct action should have been to seek LoS and stay in cover until he could see you again. After that - engage you with full engine pool and with your Wingman on CD.

[RatPoison]

He complains about gunships a bit too much, so I find what I said warranted. You outskilled him by a large margin, because if both of you were equals, he would have killed you much much faster.

 

Well... I'm unaware of his stance on gunships and I didn't feel this came off as anything more than sharing a chuckle.

 

And this isn't a judgment of anybody's skill or ability... but I've been chased in my mangler by a lot of T2 scouts being flown by a variety of pilots with a variety of skill levels and load outs. Short of them getting some luck and/or a jump on me at the start, I'm typically only killed in these chase scenarios when their teammates come to give them help... or I decide to try my luck and turn on them.

 

Anyway, I think most of us recognize that the outcome of this was determined by luck at the end. He was one stroke of luck away from winning that fight. And had he... this would be mute. He may have died... but as Drakolich pointed out... I was neutralized by his pursuit. And some folks from would probably consider that a worthy undertaking considering the damage a good gunship can do in a TDM when left unchallenged.

 

Anyway, no harm... no foul, and I wish you luck.

Edited February 26, 2015 by RatPoison

[Verain]

I agree with Drako and grunt- this shows how one sided the match is in favor of the scout, and that's likely intended. Nemarus bringing a hypothetical second guy into the game (if the gunship has a friend, why not the scout? Is it because scouts have no friends?) is incorrect, and to a lesser degree, so is the feedback shield (you don't take hull damage from feedback shield unless you are badly misplaying, and many clusters would have connected that did not). Feedback would also have resulted in some of the shots connecting that did not.

 

That's a bit harsh. I don't think the OP made this thread to declare something like "OMG GS OP!"

 

I mean, maybe, maybe not. He did say this:

 

Exactly. Now, I'd like to remind you of our 'GS vs scout' discussion

 

The gunship had to outfly and outplay to just survive, and was utterly unable to help his team while being chased.

 

 

Also, please notice that I was shoot twice while going under full evasion mode (DF+RI). So much about 'unhittable' scouts.

 

No, not "so much". How many times did you NOT get hit?

 

Bolo, you making a video where you fail to kill a gunship is not some argument about game balance. You were outflown for sure, but at least you had the stones to put a video up.

 

 

 

But the chase was worthwhile even though he eventually killed you. If he had any sort of decent position, he could have gotten off a half dozen or more railgun shots in that time if he wasn't running away.

 

This is exactly it as well. Keeping a gunship deroosted means he's doing nothing except burning defensives trying not to die. Not being able to close the deal doesn't change that.

 

it didn't seem like my teammates were paying you much attention.

 

Yea, it's definitely frustrating to run a ship that is focusing you by people, but they are too tunneled on something else to help, but you are also lucky that the enemy team didn't swap to you.

[Ramalina]

. . . Is it because scouts have no friends? . . .

 

Of course. At least in the case of battlescouts and probably also in the case Quads and Pods T1's too.

 

The T3 scouts have friends, though given how quickly they're abandoned I'm not sure those are especially good friends.

 

Gunships and bombers often have lots of gunship and bomber friends. No one else seems to get along with them well but they don't seem bothered by that. Bombers also have their, "little friends," do remember to say hello to them.

 

Strikes are by far the friendliest ships, and they're sad and a bit puzzled that the Devs never answer their friend requests.

 

I think that pretty much sums up the state of ship friendliness in GSF.

 

Oh, I almost forgot, the poor T2 gunship is off in a corner crying all alone.

Edited February 26, 2015 by Ramalina

[Kuciwalker]

Awesome! His defensive flying was superb. This is a great example of how little a Gunship can do once an evasion Scout is on him. The only possible way he was even able to take a shot at you was once he got an Engine overcharge ran more then 15k away from you and turned around and even then had to shoot threw Distortion and Running interference. Had you had Barrel Roll like I run even with the Engine Overcharge he still wouldn't have gotten away, that's how one sided that match up is.

 

Thisthisthis. Additionally TDM Mesas is probably the map that's friendliest to this kind of evasive flying.

 

I also agree with Verain above. (Getting to be a habit.)

Edited February 26, 2015 by Kuciwalker

[Bolo_Yeung]

I agree with Drako and grunt- this shows how one sided the match is in favor of the scout, and that's likely intended.

Apart from the possible gear difference (was the GS mastered? ) , latency (idk how much difference here, I had about 150-250), the chase was pretty even. (look below) About skill ... well, I admit I *** this up a little.

 

The gunship had to outfly and outplay to just survive, and was utterly unable to help his team while being chased.

1. When the GS had just a moment od breath he scored a kill...

2. The chasing scout is also removed from play (apart for some chance shots, same goes for the GS)

 

 

 

No, not "so much". How many times did you NOT get hit?

 

Bolo, you making a video where you fail to kill a gunship is not some argument about game balance. You were outflown for sure, but at least you had the stones to put a video up.

I just showed that, a GS pilot is not a battlescout meat. Please notice that I at the end was hit twice with total 4 shots fired in a full evasion mode.

And for my GS flying skills (for those saying that I want the ship I fly to be the best and have no skill on others) - I fly as Blueghost'three on JC now, Urteon/Challintra on other servers - feel free to chase my GS in a scout. Especially on Kuat

 

This is exactly it as well. Keeping a gunship deroosted means he's doing nothing except burning defensives trying not to die. Not being able to close the deal doesn't change that.

ok... but a while of breath and what? GS scores a kill.. Then he is back to running. I do it pretty often unless I have some other GS in range, I am sure any serious GS pilot can do it as well.

 

 

And for the end... I really find it amusing, how so-called 'aces' are trying to convice that a GS wall can be easily countered by a swarm of 'most OPed' scouts... and yet most of the TDM I see 40-50% GS at least, and - even without bombers - no 'most OPed' scouts to counter them

[JonnyRay]

Really not sure how a thread titled "How not to chase a GS..." with text in the OP that says

Anyway, that was funny, Respect to the GS pilot , laughs on me

Is being read as a "Gunships are OP" rant.

 

Personally, I took the post as "I had fun. Wanted to share..."

 

And after watching, I used some of what I had seen here when I was piloting my Condor last night. Not nearly as effectively, but at least it gave me some ideas about what to do when the nasty scouts find me. For example, it never would have occurred to me to try to turn around inside a tunnel like that.

 

I've also said before that we can often learn more when something doesn't end the way we'd hoped than if it worked perfectly. I wish more people would share "Don't do this..." type advice based on their personal experiences.

[nyghtrunner]

That's our Saevius! FWIW, he's definitely one of the best (if not THE best) on JC at exactly this kind of thing. nyghtrunner will be along shortly to tell you all how tough it is to nail this guy.

This whole thread made me smile. It was pretty awesome when I was watching the video, saw it was Saev, and thought, "Hey! This is from JC!" And I knew the context from the OP's title, so I kind of knew what the video was, because he's done this very same thing to me.

 

Honestly, OP, I don't know if you quite understand how much you did in this match. I've seen and flown with some incredibly good Gunners (Verain, Aimbot, Drako, Zuck, Sriia, Evgeni, Despon, MMORPG, Xiao... honestly too many to name, and I'd forget a ton of people anyway...), and I have to honestly say that when you factor in lethality, elusiveness, and awareness, Saev very well might be the best overall GS pilot I've seen. Some others I've run into are better in specific areas, but I don't really know that Saev has a weak point in his GS game.

 

If Saev's on a GS, and especially in a TDM, I know going in that the absolute best I'll be able to do is take us both out of the equation, and let everyone else 7v7 or 11v11 it, and just hope my team is better. I'm no slouch in a BScout, but there's absolutely no way I can race an unchecked Saevius in a GS if he's truly trying.

 

Now if Keenz happens to be on my team, that's a different story, because I know Keenz will do everything in his power to keep Saev busy. But I don't think it's for tactical reasons.

[Verain]

the chase was pretty even.

 

Your video begins after a few seconds where you acquire the target. If you watch from about 40 seconds to 1:20, you'll see you are chasing the gunship the whole time. You deal light damage with bursts and clusters over this time, and the gunship can do nothing but run. Do you understand that if you are chasing an opponent who has less maneuverability than you and no way to EVEN SEE YOU, that this is not "an even chase"? You're the predator, he's the prey. At 1:10ish he tries to get you to fly past. This invites a misplay on your part, and you don't take him up on the chance, instead smacking him around a little bit. Again, he can neither face nor see you.

 

Starting at about 1:20, he uses barrel to make distance, baiting your clusters. He's trying hard to keep enough purple to not die. If you had had barrel here (and likely powerdive) you would have probably have sealed the deal. Retro is not your top pick for fighting a type 1 gunship, after all (it excels at other things).

At around 1:40, you make a mild misplay, losing him when he takes a fork offscreen. This lets him get back some energy, but that's it- you're back on him soon enough.

 

A bit later, you swap off him for about 15 seconds to get an engine. This is a good call. He responds appropriately, by firing at your teammates, but you are back on him almost instantly.

 

Then there's over a minute of flying where he tries to exhaust you, something made very difficult by your F3 and the fact that you are coming off a purple. Around 3 minutes he tries to scrape you off using the landscape, and you don't fall for it. His engine is likely low from the microboosting, and you deal shield and hull damage as he begs the gods for breath.

 

During this time, he still can't do anything to actually look at you, face you, or shoot you in any way. His best hope is that someone assists (two mediocre pilots try but you just shake them off) or that you run into a wall (spoiler: you don't).

 

Starting around 3:07, he has enough boost to make a play. He runs hard through a dogfighting, hoping folks will swap to you or that you mismanaged your boost. Neither happens, and you get both his barrel and his disto. Then he's back to running around narrows hoping to get his breath back, his big play countered by you. During this time, you've dealt damage to his shield and hull, and he's dealt nothing to you, because he can't even get you on his screen, because you'd have fly a ton worse for that to happen.

 

Eventually, he gets a purple. He boosts super hard and, assuming that you will be following instead of doing anything else (a good bet given the last 4 minutes with no assistance from his team, ability to interact with the board, or do anything at all) he finally gets to face his assailant from range. Your misplay here is strategic, not tactical, and given his position at the corner of the map, with plenty of targets safely behind the pillar, you should swap off him. He has every advantage if you just fly that distance manually and without barrel, but you instead put your faith in RNG. Seven times out of ten the video would end with you killing him here, but he lands the shot through distortion, and once that happens it's no big deal for him to finish once your disto FINALLY goes away.

 

 

Up until 3:50, it wasn't an even chase- it was you beating him to death, an invisible and invincible foe. Your hull is yellow at the start, his is green. When you finally die after a strategic misplay and him getting a purple powerup and nailing a shot through disto because he's entirely out of any other option, his hull is deep red. During this time, your team went from 1-0 to 19-3, and he was utterly unable to do anything while your teammates tore his teammates limb from limb.

 

 

Even?

 

 

Even chase?

 

 

It was nothing of the sort. That last moment was the Darth Vader moment- even though he knew he'd die, he wanted to see you with his own eyes.

 

 

 

 

You thought that was a fair fight? A fight against an opponent who couldn't fight back until the literal gods intervened?

 

The scout versus gunship matchup is awful for the gunship. You being annoyed because your enemy wasn't dying fast enough is ludicrous.

 

I'm not saying any of this is fundamentally unfair- given what a free shooting gunship can accomplish, they need to be weak if focused.

 

But don't call it a fair fight, or even. You had every advantage. Again, if you recorded that video 10 times, 7 of them you'd have won.

 

It boggles my mind that anyone thinks that video is some argument about how powerful gunships are or something.

 

 

I just showed that, a GS pilot is not a battlescout meat. Please notice that I at the end was hit twice with total 4 shots fired in a full evasion mode.

 

I saw two hits, only one of them through distortion (and he had wingman up for all the shots, which I think was five).

 

He played the lottery because you had left him no other options. If you know the math behind what you are watching, "nerf scouts" would be your honest conclusion. The 3:50 shot hits you through your evasion, and he has wingman up. His odds for that shot are still crap. He has to take it. No other choice. It's also possible your distortion didn't count- like every other buff in this game, there's the time when you press it and the time the server registers it. Since the disto and the shot are almost simultaneous, it's possible that you didn't actually have distortion up when he shot. At 3:52 he takes a shot that misses, as you would expect. At 3:55, he misses again, point blank, because, again, that's what shooting at a scout is like. At 3:54 I think he BLCs at you and misses again, and at 3:57, without your distortion, and with his wingman, he lands a hit and you die.

 

Yes, you were unhittable. Luckily, a couple of his shots landed. If you had gotten behind him, boosted to his right or left instead of head on, you would also have won. You chose to attack him, you chose to not be faced by him for 3 and a half minutes, you chose to eventually let him get shots at you. You rolled dice weighted in your favor and lost.

 

 

And you want to blame the system. You think that's a fair fight. That's ludicrous.

 

 

And for the end... I really find it amusing, how so-called 'aces' are trying to convice that a GS wall can be easily countered by a swarm of 'most OPed' scouts... and yet most of the TDM I see 40-50% GS at least, and - even without bombers - no 'most OPed' scouts to counter them

 

That's not actually what happens, but given how you only see what you want to see and tell yourself the story you want to hear...

Edited February 26, 2015 by Verain

[Asbetos]

And to add to Verains analysis:

YOU missed plenty of shots. No evasion, no RNG, no tracking penalty, but plain out of the reticule shots. Some of them were hard shots, but most were simple shots where you had the time to take your aim and blast him to bits which is exactly what would've happened had you hit less than a half of those shots.

[Drakkolich]

I'd also like to add something to Verain's analysis. In the final confrontation you actually did have a worse chance to hit him then he did you, that's how bad your decision to attack him here is. Engine Overcharge the power up actually gives you +25% evasion so in this final instance he actually had a better chance to hit you then you did him.

 

You had 10 + 9 + 9 + 5 = 33 passive + 35 + 15 = 83% evasion - 20 (his wingman) 63% evasion

 

he had 9 + 9 + 5 + 25 = 48% passive + 35 = 83% evasion - 10 (your targeting telemetry) 73% evasion

 

Both of you are using burst lasers, the difference is you had to use distortion to bridge the gap he created with the power up and he landed that lucky shot with the rail while your distortion was up. Just to be clear on lucky shots, you do hit him at the end just as you die while he has distortion up.

 

It takes you 4 shots to him which is exactly what you would expect from someone with 73% evasion. Had he not had Engine Overcharge you theoretically would have hit him twice with your 4 shots and he would have died.

 

 

This was more to show how important it is to check their buffs often to decide when to engage. Those power ups change everything.

[Bolo_Yeung]

Your video begins after a few seconds where you acquire the target. If you watch from about 40 seconds to 1:20, you'll see you are chasing the gunship the whole time. You deal light damage with bursts and clusters over this time, and the gunship can do nothing but run. Do you understand that if you are chasing an opponent who has less maneuverability than you and no way to EVEN SEE YOU, that this is not "an even chase"? You're the predator, he's the prey. At 1:10ish he tries to get you to fly past. This invites a misplay on your part, and you don't take him up on the chance, instead smacking him around a little bit. Again, he can neither face nor see you.

 

Funny thing. I am myself pretty good in evading scouts in a GS (especially T3 but let;'s say about T1). It is easy to make a scout overfly - accelerate over a corner, wait until he accelerates too, press rclick. I mentioned it already ...

 

Starting at about 1:20, he uses barrel to make distance, baiting your clusters. He's trying hard to keep enough purple to not die. If you had had barrel here (and likely powerdive) you would have probably have sealed the deal. Retro is not your top pick for fighting a type 1 gunship, after all (it excels at other things).

Sure. Assuming I have scout especially designed to chasing GS. Also, the rightclick trick works pretty well on scouts with BR...

 

At around 1:40, you make a mild misplay, losing him when he takes a fork offscreen. This lets him get back some energy, but that's it- you're back on him soon enough.

 

A bit later, you swap off him for about 15 seconds to get an engine. This is a good call. He responds appropriately, by firing at your teammates, but you are back on him almost instantly.

 

Consider the fact that he was pushed back - in a hypothetical 'scouts vs gunships' scenario there is much more ocassion for a chance shots - and even a lovetap from ion rail will practically remove an ability of the scout to chase teammates.

Scouts won't get much of a chance shots since they have to be within 5k range to score a hit

 

Then there's over a minute of flying where he tries to exhaust you, something made very difficult by your F3 and the fact that you are coming off a purple. Around 3 minutes he tries to scrape you off using the landscape, and you don't fall for it. His engine is likely low from the microboosting, and you deal shield and hull damage as he begs the gods for breath.

 

During this time, he still can't do anything to actually look at you, face you, or shoot you in any way (...)

 

Up until 3:50, it wasn't an even chase- it was you beating him to death, an invisible and invincible foe. Your hull is yellow at the start, his is green. When you finally die after a strategic misplay and him getting a purple powerup and nailing a shot through disto because he's entirely out of any other option, his hull is deep red. During this time, your team went from 1-0 to 19-3, and he was utterly unable to do anything while your teammates tore his teammates limb from limb.

 

 

Even?

 

 

Even chase?

 

 

It was nothing of the sort. That last moment was the Darth Vader moment- even though he knew he'd die, he wanted to see you with his own eyes.

 

Consider the fact that in even numbers situation this was the WORST possible scenario for a GS - getting ambushed by a battlescout. And in that *worst* scenario it was a 4 minute chase. Even assuming I didnt make some mistakes, it would be still 1-2 minutes.

Now, how would this end if the GS would be aware of the ambush a little earlier? How would it end if the GS would shoot first?...

Yes, I have elminated the GS from play for 4 minutes (and to be honest, I guess for the entire rest of the game... )

 

 

 

You thought that was a fair fight? A fight against an opponent who couldn't fight back until the literal gods intervened?

Nope. It wasn't a fair fight, but. considering the cicumstances, an even chase. And, if my team didnt have a serious advantage then, it would probably end badly for me (another GS shoot down, then respawning just in nice position to assist a teammmate with well placed ion rail... then either one would finish me easily)

 

The scout versus gunship matchup is awful for the gunship. You being annoyed because your enemy wasn't dying fast enough is ludicrous.

Please, dont judge people by yourself. I wasn't annoyed... impressed and laughing at the same time

 

I'm not saying any of this is fundamentally unfair- given what a free shooting gunship can accomplish, they need to be weak if focused.

A scout catched in the open with first shot has no real chances. Assuming the fact his engine pool isn't full, he is pretty much a sitting duck with either turtle speed or no boost at all for 7-8 seconds.

 

But don't call it a fair fight, or even. You had every advantage. Again, if you recorded that video 10 times, 7 of them you'd have won.

Where did I call it a 'fair fight' It was an even chase, assuming all the disadvantages the GS *should* have at the moment*

 

It boggles my mind that anyone thinks that video is some argument about how powerful gunships are or something.

 

Well, if the GS can oneshot scout from afar, and - being chased - can hold his own pretty well (and I am preetty sure that would me more of fight in T3 GS) - does that mean the GS are perfectly ballanced and scouts are 'most OPed'?

 

 

I saw two hits, only one of them through distortion (and he had wingman up for all the shots, which I think was five).

Yep. My mistake, the disto ended just a second before final hit. However, that time was nearly all spent closing the distance (and didnt help against first slug hit)

However, please notice that instead of Disto, I had additional 24% evasion from retros at the time... so the difference isn't as bad.

 

He played the lottery because you had left him no other options. If you know the math behind what you are watching, "nerf scouts" would be your honest conclusion.

And if you would take into consideration the match behind GS shots with ion rail (because you surely know it) you should cry for GS nerfing as well.

Again - I watched last week movies from my matches and never I could see a swarm of battlescouts going against a decent GS wall, with or without bombers. Try to draw conclusions...

 

The 3:50 shot hits you through your evasion, and he has wingman up. His odds for that shot are still crap. He has to take it. No other choice. It's also possible your distortion didn't count- like every other buff in this game, there's the time when you press it and the time the server registers it.

Since the disto and the shot are almost simultaneous, it's possible that you didn't actually have distortion up when he shot.

Are you sure that icon can show up before the distortion field is activated?..

 

At 3:52 he takes a shot that misses, as you would expect. At 3:55, he misses again, point blank, because, again, that's what shooting at a scout is like. At 3:54 I think he BLCs at you and misses again, and at 3:57, without your distortion, and with his wingman, he lands a hit and you die.

You conveniently overlooked the fact that distortion got exchanged for evasion bonus from retros.

 

Yes, you were unhittable. Luckily, a couple of his shots landed.

It is self-contradicting, don't you see?

 

If you had gotten behind him, boosted to his right or left instead of head on, you would also have won. You chose to attack him, you chose to not be faced by him for 3 and a half minutes, you chose to eventually let him get shots at you. You rolled dice weighted in your favor and lost.

If I would boost to his flank, he would just boost away. And since he had the engine overchargehe could try to set the trap again.

 

 

And you want to blame the system. You think that's a fair fight. That's ludicrous.

For the 3rd time you are putting the words that I didn't say (or type, whatever). Schopenhauer would be proud.

 

So to be clear and hopefully, stop the topic.

That WASN'T a 'fair fight'.

The same way that getting one shotted by 16% chance rail crit isn't a 'fair fight' as well.

That was a 'pretty even chase'. Considering the fact that the scout should have an advantage when he gets close... even assuming skill/gear gap (gear, I am not sure, skill - working on it , though I have to admit that Saevius is better... for now ) the amount of time an focused single GS can evade an angry battlescout without any serious help from the team, - is pretty better than the opposite situation.

 

That's not actually what happens, but given how you only see what you want to see and tell yourself the story you want to hear...

Again, please don't judge others by yourself .

 

@Dracolich up: Well, maybe, didnt know about EO evasion bonus (but then why do I get hit so often with it, disto and wingman active?... must be my bad luck Thanks for the info anyway.

Edited February 26, 2015 by Bolo_Yeung

[Ramalina]

Bolo started the chase low on engine energy, which may be doable on a scout, but it's not wise.

 

Another issue was that he was trying to stick too close to the gunship for it to have a chance to do anything, but was so focused on this that he didn't create good positioning for centered shooting. Almost all of those BLC shots were very high deflection, and by trading a bit of range control for a bit of angle control, enough might have hit to end the chase in the scout's favor. Normally for the scout the goal is to get a kill under the initial system buff cooldown, so that's fairly important.

 

The value of sticking close to harass vs. maneuvering for a quick kill depends partly on whether you're playing for team success or individual success. From an individual perspective, it would have been better to work harder at getting a quick kill. From a team perspective, keeping a top notch gunship defensive and low on resources may actually be better than killing them and letting them respawn with full resources and maybe killing several of your teammates before you can get back to harassing them.

 

There was also an awful lot of lag pursuit. That's not what you want to do in order to close distance or conserve fuel when chasing a target. Lead pursuit is what should be used for that. Following the GS through the maze was also somewhat questionable as a choice in my opinion. There's clear space higher up, and if you can cut a few km off of your path by taking an alternate route, there's no reason not to do it as long as you're not exposing yourself to excessive fire from other hostiles.

 

In the engine energy pool management battle, Bolo was very solidly out-flown, but he started from a pretty bad position in that regard.

 

Still, if you tally up: keeping a high skill GS pilot tied up for at least 25% of a match, a poor energy position to start from, interference from at least 2 other enemy ships, and getting the GS extremely low on hull health that's a pretty good result from a BLC scout with a suboptimal build for GS hunting.

 

As far as ship balance goes, that does tend to indicate scales tipped in favor of the scout. There were a lot of unfavorable elements impairing the scout, and it still very nearly killed the GS, and it absolutely crushed the gunship in terms of team vs. team outcomes.

 

Keep in mind that ship balance and meta balance are not always on a one to one relationship. Scouts are by far the deadliest ships against strikes, scouts, and gunships, they just get countered very hard by bomber + gunship combos. At present there's no real counter to bomber + gunship other than bomber + a bit more gunship, hence the reduction in swarms of battlescouts. If there was another good option for countering bombers you'd probably see a more diverse mix of ships in the meta, but it's not a matter of scouts being weak, and especially not of them being weak against gunships.

 

Edit:

Probably also worth noting that upgrades have a very significant effect on the burst kill potential of BLCs, Clusters, and TT.

Edited February 26, 2015 by Ramalina

[Bolo_Yeung]

Sigh... started the chase with low engine . Unless I have booster recharge (or engine overcharge that I had at some time BTW), it is kinda hard to sneak at GS with full engines (that means I have to stay close for some time, enough for him to notice me).

 

Anyway, I am still waiting for someone to answer the basic question:

 

If the scouts eat GS of equal skill so easily, why don't we see often a 'scout swarm' counter to 'gunship wall' even with bomber absence?...