12 x XP for class-missions

[FerkWork]

Since I'm suppose to work for this... Do I get paid overtime? What about Healthcare? These are important questions! Otherwise I will have to contact HR about this. As a Employee in the Leveling Department I also demand 3 weeks paid vacation to Rishi

[TUXs]

An aversion to effort by any other name is STILL an aversion to effort.

Aversion to boredom. I've done every the quest multiple times, I've leveled my characters (2 of them in my favorite class and multiples in beta)...doing them again would bore me to tears.

 

This has nothing to do with effort. It's that I have no interest in leveling another that way. It's not fun to me. I'd rather not play this game than to do it all again. You can call me names all you like, it doesn't change the fact that I simply don't enjoy it, and that's the true reason I play this game, to enjoy myself.

[EllieAnne]

Effort put forth in the past does not necessarily negate laziness in the present.

 

"Grinding" out those 8 characters in the past without 12XP would not be lazy. Demanding a "light speed, easy mode, fast pass to max level" simply so that you can avoid the effort required to level those new alts would be laziness as that demonstrates an aversion to the effort required to level those alts.

 

You still were to lazy to answer the last question. If someone were to be too lazy to grind except with 12xXP, then why should you care?

[Seldan]

Laziness is defined as "an aversion to effort". It makes no difference if what that effort is or would entail.

 

As someone else pointed out, if you are unwilling to put forth the minimal effort to level those alts, then by definition that would be laziness.

 

You can try to justify your aversion to the effort of leveling those alts you want, but that does not change the fact that that aversion to the effort of leveling those alts is laziness.

 

As far as having nothing better to do with my time? Let's see. I work 50+ hours a week. I bowl at least three nights a week. I have numerous other familial obligations on my time. I'm lucky if I get to play 3 or 4r hours a week. Unlike some players, I do not, however, think that my RL activities entitle me to a "light speed, easy mode, fast pass to max level", even though I have done all those pesky planetary side quests and run KDY til my eyes bled. I do not have to have that new 60 in two days. I know it may take some time, but I will get those alts leveled.

 

However, effort is subjective. Some may consider a task effortless, and be disinterested by that task.

 

I am willing to put the "effort" to either obtain the credits in game, or work at my employer for real money to purchase the Cartel Coins to unlock the 12XP boost. Is that not effort? Energy expended/exchanged?

 

If a Software Developer writes a script to automate tasks - is that lazy or efficient?

 

If a driver takes a shortcut - is that lazy or efficient?

 

This is turning into a circular argument based on your concept of lazy/effort. It's your opinion and I respect that, but I disagree.

 

The only "effort" associated with the planetary quests/side content is dealing with the boredom - do you consider that good game design?

 

I have done all those pesky planetary side quests and run KDY til my eyes bled. I do not have to have that new 60 in two days. I know it may take some time, but I will get those alts leveled.

 

That's great, so have I. You can continue to do so if that is how you wish to play. No one is taking that from you. You can choose not to purchase the 12XP boost. You'll have a choice.

[Ratajack]

You still were to lazy to answer the last question. If someone were to be too lazy to grind except with 12xXP, then why should you care?

 

I did not answer that last question, because it has already BEEN answered, numerous times. You just simply choose to cover your eyes and ignore those answers because they do not mesh with your desire for a "light speed, easy mode, fast pass to max level" to satisfy your aversion to the minimal effort required to level those alts.

 

You can go back and read those answers if you want, but I'm betting that even that is too much effort for you.

 

 

I'm sure you've seen what happens EVERY TIME BW gives the mice a cookie and does something nice for us.

 

Nothing is good enough for the mice. They always demand more.

 

Did we have threads demanding 12XP before BW gave us a BONUS, not something we were entitled to have, just a BONUS--a nice gesture. Now we have the mice demanding it, expecting it, feeling that they are entitled to it. There's already at least one mouse who says that even 12XP is not good enough and demands MORE.

 

Maybe it's time for BW to stop giving the mice cookies.

[TUXs]

Did we have threads demanding 12XP before BW gave us a BONUS

 

Of course we did - we've had players asking to level via class quests since launch (which is the same as 12x).

[Ratajack]

Unless I missed it, you have NEVER addressed the point I made. Most MMO have just a few story lines. SWTOR has at least ten. Isn't that a fundamental difference that needs to be part of the discussion i.e. there is a difference between grinding out 3-4 stories and grinding 10 or more out?

 

Most MMO's have multiple classes, even those MMO's with just a few story lines. If someone wants to play all the classes in an MMO with only a few story lines, they must still level those alts, even though it means doing the same content over and over and over again.

 

Why do you feel you are entitled to a "light speed, easy mode, fast pass to max level" simply because this game has even more stories than most? I would think that the more stories there are, the more varied leveling those characters becomes.

 

Yes, there are quests that are the same for every class in each faction, but that is true of almost every MMO out there. The last time I checked, I didn't see many, if any at all, giving out a "light speed, easy mode, fast pass to max level" in the form of 12XP. There are some that will give XP boosts, such as WoW with the heirlooms. This game has XP boosts, rested XP, guild XP perks and legacy XP perks.

 

WoW will let you pay $60 to skip to 90, but even that is not max level and you still have to do the same quests on that new alt that you already did on all those previous max level characters to get to 100.

[Ratajack]

However, effort is subjective. Some may consider a task effortless, and be disinterested by that task.

 

I am willing to put the "effort" to either obtain the credits in game, or work at my employer for real money to purchase the Cartel Coins to unlock the 12XP boost. Is that not effort? Energy expended/exchanged?

 

If a Software Developer writes a script to automate tasks - is that lazy or efficient?

 

If a driver takes a shortcut - is that lazy or efficient?

 

This is turning into a circular argument based on your concept of lazy/effort. It's your opinion and I respect that, but I disagree.

 

The only "effort" associated with the planetary quests/side content is dealing with the boredom - do you consider that good game design?

 

 

 

That's great, so have I. You can continue to do so if that is how you wish to play. No one is taking that from you. You can choose not to purchase the 12XP boost. You'll have a choice.

 

The beauty of it is that you have the choice to level those alts as the game is designed, or not to level those alts.

 

 

 

IMO, it seems that the devs have made the decision NOT to cater to the "lazy, instant gratification, entitled, have to have it now and for as little effort or cost as possible" crowd.

 

I'm simply voicing my opinion that they should stick to their guns.

 

Will we ever see another 12XP event? Possibly. If we do, though, I suspect it not be until shortly before the next expansion and then only for a limited time, probably only for those that preorder. It may not even happen then, though. BW may not be willing to open that can of worms again.

[CloudCastle]

I read it as being able to do the class missions all the way through right from the start and potentially finishing the story at a lower level. I know this has many flaws though currently and would require a fair few changes to the game but I still feel it would be quite cool.

 

This is not how I read it. When people suggest "scaling," it generally means having the content self-adjust, in this case to the character's current level. So you'd be technically under-leveled for most of the class storyline, but functionally it wouldn't matter because level 20, 30, or 40 (for example) class quests would have an appropriate difficulty for your lower-level character.

 

Thanks. I do understand what it means to scale content, but I thought by scaling, he meant, "make all class quests level 60" and then go from there.

 

Ok, everyone back to the "laziness" arguments.

Edited March 23, 2015 by CloudCastle

[EllieAnne]

I did not answer that last question, because it has already BEEN answered, numerous times. You just simply choose to cover your eyes and ignore those answers because they do not mesh with your desire for a "light speed, easy mode, fast pass to max level" to satisfy your aversion to the minimal effort required to level those alts.

Actually, I'm just waiting to hear an answer that makes sense because your answer is basically "lightning-leveling alts means there will be less people on planets/flashpoints than if they had not played those alts at all".

 

Most MMO's have multiple classes, even those MMO's with just a few story lines. If someone wants to play all the classes in an MMO with only a few story lines, they must still level those alts, even though it means doing the same content over and over and over again.

 

Still avoiding the main issue. Is there not a difference in leveling four toons to get the full effect/stories as opposed to 10?

[EllieAnne]

The beauty of it is that you have the choice to level those alts as the game is designed, or not to level those alts.

 

Then don't complain about low planet populations or at least stop trying to convince us more alts being leveled (even at an accelerated pace) will result in lower planet populations.

[TUXs]

I'm simply voicing my opinion that they should stick to their guns.

 

Opinion?

 

Seems like all you're trying to do is be rude and insult people...have a look:

 

 

it seems that the devs have made the decision NOT to cater to the "lazy, instant gratification, entitled, have to have it now and for as little effort or cost as possible" crowd.

As I said, try to justify that aversion to the minimal effort required to level those alts all you want.

but I'm betting that even that is too much effort for you.

Laziness is defined as "an aversion to effort". It makes no difference if what that effort is or would entail.

 

As someone else pointed out, if you are unwilling to put forth the minimal effort to level those alts, then by definition that would be laziness.

 

You can try to justify your aversion to the effort of leveling those alts you want, but that does not change the fact that that aversion to the effort of leveling those alts is laziness.

Effort put forth in the past does not necessarily negate laziness in the present.

Try to justify your LAZINESS (aversion to effort, even minimal effort) all you want, but in the end it is still LAZINESS. You are too averse to the minimal effort required to level those characters and so you want a "light speed, easy mode, fast pass means to max level". LAZINESS is the driving force behind your desire for this "light speed, easy mode, fast pass means to max level".

That is, if they are not too lazy to do so.

If you were not too lazy to level that alt, you could likely have had that 60 by now.

 

I think we all know that LAZINESS is the driving force behind much of the demand for a "light speed, easy mode, fast pass to max level", though.

I've never seen such a disgusting post history. You're more interested in calling other players names than you are anything else. You don't argue why it would be bad, you just name call. I find it shocking you haven't been banned yet.

Edited March 23, 2015 by TUXs

[Ratajack]

Actually, I'm just waiting to hear an answer that makes sense because your answer is basically "lightning-leveling alts means there will be less people on planets/flashpoints than if they had not played those alts at all".

 

 

 

Still avoiding the main issue. Is there not a difference in leveling four toons to get the full effect/stories as opposed to 10?

 

WoW has 12 classes. If you want the "full effect" of experiencing all those classes, then you have to do the same quests 12 times. They make it easier to level with their heirloom gear, but they do not offer 12XP.

 

You can pay $60 per character to boost to 90, after which it is still the same quests from 90 to 100. Depending on how many classes you need to boost, that could get quite pricey.

 

Let me ask you, since you claim to be focused on "experiencing all the stories", would you be satisfied if they allowed you to create max level characters on the PTS. This would likely enable you to zoom through all the stories you still want to experience without having any interruptions.

[TUXs]

WoW has 12 classes

So go play w0w...that has nothing to do with SWTOR.

[Ratajack]

Opinion?

 

Seems like all you're trying to do is be rude and insult people...have a look:

 

I've never seen such a disgusting post history. You're more interested in calling other players names than you are anything else. You don't argue why it would be bad, you just name call. I find it shocking you haven't been banned yet.

 

Gee, the truth REALLY gets to you, doesn't it.

 

If BW wants to ban me for speaking the truth and calling a spade a spade, that is their option.

[TUXs]

Gee, the truth REALLY gets to you, doesn't it.

 

If BW wants to ban me for speaking the truth and calling a spade a spade, that is their option.

What truth? Your perverted reality? No lol. Doesn't get to me at all...in fact, I find it extremely delightful how upset you get over HOW someone reaches 60. I can't think of anything less meaningful to me, but it's funny how hung up on it you are.

[Spirited]

I've been watching this thread for the past few days, read all of the arguments so far and I thought I would just tip my two cents into the fray. I am pro-12xp or some other method to simply do class stories for a few reasons, all of which are below so please feel free to disregard the rest of this post and simply call me lazy and entitled if you're against the idea and don't want to read my argument.

 

I am not your typical MMO player, I abhor any sort of grind and I suffer heavily from alt-itis. This means that since I started playing MMO's in the early 2000's I have only been able to get one character to the highest level in an MMO. (Incase you're curious the game is WoW, I could also count SWG since I did master a few professions but I don't know if that counts.) I don't heavily do dungeons and I ignore raiding and PVP like the plague, infact I can really only do a dungeon a few times I get incredibly bored and can't stand doing it again. Therefore most of the time I spend in an MMO is spent socialising, RPing or crafting or simply travelling around the virtual word. I currently have a level 50 bounty hunter who will remain that level because I've finished the class story and don't want to do the grind to 60, especially since I've read the expansions storylines are tied to factions rather than classes.

 

Now that I've spoken about my philosophy about MMOs I'm going to argue about the reason why I think 12xp or some form of story mode should be available to ALL players. Marketing. When EA and bioware market this game they basically never show the raiding or pvp. The story is front and centre as the games USP in an ever crowded MMO market. Add to this that to a KOTOR/Star Wars junkie like myself the claim that SWTOR is 'KOTOR 3,4,5 and 6 combined' (Paraphrasing that quote) I'm left wanting to to ONLY the story but I'm blocked out due to grind.

 

You could argue that the planet story missions do contribute to the characters story and I would agree with that if the quest structures ever actually changed based on class. (E.G. If you're a more stealthy class you go a different route with different interaction) However they're simply the same every time and I do not like the idea of having to re-do those quests again just to see the story quests of another character. Again lazy, entitled, whatever.

 

TL;DR (For us lazy and entitled folk) I only want to do the story (Which I believe is the games USP), nothing else in the game and would highly appreciate either 12xp or a story mode. Whether I need to pay or subscribe for it.

Edited March 23, 2015 by Spirited

[Ratajack]

I've been watching this thread for the past few days, read all of the arguments so far and I thought I would just tip my two cents into the fray. I am pro-12xp or some other method to simply do class stories for a few reasons, all of which are below so please feel free to disregard the rest of this post and simply call me lazy and entitled if you're against the idea and don't want to read my argument.

 

I am not your typical MMO player, I abhor any sort of grind and I suffer heavily from alt-itis. This means that since I started playing MMO's in the early 2000's I have only been able to get one character to the highest level in an MMO. (Incase you're curious the game is WoW, I could also count SWG since I did master a few professions but I don't know if that counts.) I don't heavily do dungeons and I ignore raiding and PVP like the plague, infact I can really only do a dungeon a few times I get incredibly bored and can't stand doing it again. Therefore most of the time I spend in an MMO is spent socialising, RPing or crafting or simply travelling around the virtual word. I currently have a level 50 bounty hunter who will remain that level because I've finished the class story and don't want to do the grind to 60, especially since I've read the expansions storylines are tied to factions rather than classes.

 

Now that I've spoken about my philosophy about MMOs I'm going to argue about the reason why I think 12xp or some form of story mode should be available to ALL players. Marketing. When EA and bioware market this game they basically never show the raiding or pvp. The story is front and centre as the games USP in an ever crowded MMO market. Add to this that to a KOTOR/Star Wars junkie like myself the claim that SWTOR is 'KOTOR 3,4,5 and 6 combined' (Paraphrasing that quote) I'm left wanting to to ONLY the story but I'm blocked out due to grind.

 

You could argue that the planet story missions do contribute to the characters story and I would agree with that if the quest structures ever actually changed based on class. (E.G. If you're a more stealthy class you go a different route with different interaction) However they're simply the same every time and I do not like the idea of having to re-do those quests again just to see the story quests of another character. Again lazy, entitled, whatever.

 

TL;DR (For us lazy and entitled folk) I only want to do the story (Which I believe is the games USP), nothing else in the game and would highly appreciate either 12xp or a story mode. Whether I need to pay or subscribe for it.

 

I will ask you the same question I asked an earlier poster.

 

Would you be satisfied if BW allowed the creation of max level characters on the PTS?

 

At max level, you should be able to go a zoom through the stories uninterrupted.

 

IMO, anyone who's TRUE goal is simply to experience the stories should find this satisfactory.

Edited March 23, 2015 by Ratajack

[Seldan]

The beauty of it is that you have the choice to level those alts as the game is designed, or not to level those alts.

 

IMO, it seems that the devs have made the decision NOT to cater to the "lazy, instant gratification, entitled, have to have it now and for as little effort or cost as possible" crowd.

 

I'm simply voicing my opinion that they should stick to their guns.

 

Will we ever see another 12XP event? Possibly. If we do, though, I suspect it not be until shortly before the next expansion and then only for a limited time, probably only for those that preorder. It may not even happen then, though. BW may not be willing to open that can of worms again.

 

Which is more healthy for the game? A veteran player not rolling alts due to the tedium/disinterest, or providing veteran players incentives to roll alts (which is a common feature for other MMOs)?

 

I disagree that professional game developers are not implementing 12XP because "they don't want cater to the lazy, instant gratification, entitled, have to have it now and for as little effort or cost as possible crowd". It's more likely that they are discussing the best ways to implement and monetize the feature.

 

Speculation from both of us, sure.

 

WoW has 12 classes. If you want the "full effect" of experiencing all those classes, then you have to do the same quests 12 times. They make it easier to level with their heirloom gear, but they do not offer 12XP.

 

I believe the current boost WoW offers from a full heirloom set is 45%. One of the main attractions of 12XP is it allows the Class Story chapters to be played seamlessly, which is the centerpiece of the leveling content. If N% XP provides the same result, then sure.

 

The PTS concept is an interesting idea - however the PTS is a volatile environment. I'm not sure how Bioware could properly monetize that idea, and it has the risk of fragmenting the player base by pulling players over to the PTS. The 12XP boost is an already developed feature, re-introducing it as a CM Consumable or Legacy Perk would be the most logical choice.

Edited March 23, 2015 by Seldan

[Spirited]

I will ask you the same question I asked an earlier poster.

 

Would you be satisfied if BW allowed the creation of max level characters on the PTS.

 

At max level, you should be able to go a zoom through the stories uninterrupted.

 

IMO, anyone who's TRUE goal is simply to experience the stories should find this satisfactory.

 

I'd be absolutely fine with any form of experiencing the story including that. Again, I don't want to do FP's, OP's or PVP, the level itself means nothing to me apart from the fact I know I need to be a certain level to do the story at a certain point.

[EllieAnne]

One issue I would have with the PTS idea is simple logistics. We saw that new players had trouble with gearing and credits because they leveled to fast. "That wouldn't be a problem." we claim, " The only people getting 12xXP would be those with enough leveled toons to support their alts." On the PTS the gearing & money would be an issue since we don't have toons established there.

[Ratajack]

Which is more healthy for the game? A veteran player not rolling alts due to the tedium/disinterest, or providing veteran players incentives to roll alts (which is a common feature for other MMOs)?

 

I disagree that professional game developers are not implementing 12XP because "they don't want cater to the lazy, instant gratification, entitled, have to have it now and for as little effort or cost as possible crowd". It's more likely that they are discussing the best ways to implement and monetize the feature.

 

Speculation from both of us, sure.

 

 

 

I believe the current boost WoW offers from a full heirloom set is 45%. One of the main attractions of 12XP is it allows the Class Story chapters to be played seamlessly, which is the centerpiece of the leveling content. If N% XP provides the same result, then sure.

 

The PTS concept is an interesting idea - however the PTS is a volatile environment. I'm not sure how Bioware could properly monetize that idea, and it has the risk of fragmenting the player base by pulling players over to the PTS. The 12XP boost is an already developed feature, re-introducing it as a CM Consumable or Legacy Perk would be the most logical choice.

 

45% is a far cry from 1200%, wouldn't you say?

 

As far as monetizing the creation of max level characters on the PTR as opposed to transferring an already leveled characer, they could simply charge a set CC fee to allow the creation of a max level character. Obviously not a huge amount as it would be the PTR, but IMO, a reasonable amount would be somewhere in the range of 200 CC's. This is less than half the monthly stipend for a subscriber. It is important to remember, though, that this figure is reasonable ONLY for the creation of a max level character ON THE PTS, IMO.

 

As for your concern about "fragmenting the player base", that is one of the reasons why those against 12XP are against it. While the players would all be on the live servers, those who pay for the "light speed, easy modem fast pass to max level" would still be fragmented from those that either chose not to purchase, or did not meet the eligibility requirements for the "light speed, easy mode, fast pass to max level".

 

Why would anyone be concerned about fragmenting the player base if that max level character was on the PTS and choose to dismiss player base fragmentation concerns if that "fast passed" max level character was on the live servers? Could it possibly be because their TRUE motivation is not to see the stories, but rather to have that "light speed, easy mode, fast pass to max level" on the live servers?

[EllieAnne]

I am not your typical MMO player,

...

Now that I've spoken about my philosophy about MMOs I'm going to argue about the reason why I think 12xp or some form of story mode should be available to ALL players. Marketing. When EA and bioware market this game they basically never show the raiding or pvp. The story is front and centre as the games USP in an ever crowded MMO market. Add to this that to a KOTOR/Star Wars junkie like myself the claim that SWTOR is 'KOTOR 3,4,5 and 6 combined' (Paraphrasing that quote) I'm left wanting to to ONLY the story but I'm blocked out due to grind.

qft^

 

One issue is that MMOs are evolving. Gone is the Holy Trinity of Tank, Healer or DPS (except in the end-game where it is very much alive). Black Desert claims it will have support roles instead of pure healers. SWTOR follows the trend of current MMOs having every class be DPS with the "Trinity" being Some tanking, Some healing or More DPS. Skill-trees was revolutionary when it came out 7-8 years ago and the idea of crew skills and companions is very new (You used to have to run quests by yourself or a PUG). Some MMOs are dispensing with the concept of leveling all together. Grinding is a characteristic of Korean MMOs and while it may be traditional to grind in an MMO I think many here have decided that "traditional" means correct. SWTOR was meant to be (or at least marketed as) an new idea in MMOs - one I think 12xXP (limited to those with a certain number of toons at level 60) would work out very well with.

[Ratajack]

One issue I would have with the PTS idea is simple logistics. We saw that new players had trouble with gearing and credits because they leveled to fast. "That wouldn't be a problem." we claim, " The only people getting 12xXP would be those with enough leveled toons to support their alts." On the PTS the gearing & money would be an issue since we don't have toons established there.

 

BW could set it up so that when you create that max level character, you get the max level character of the class you choose, a set of reasonable--not BIS, but let's say blue quality level 60 gear (and at 60 even level 60 greens should be enough to do the stories) and an adaptive speeder. Companions could also have a set of blue quality when you get them. I may be wrong, but I would think that it would be possible to set it up so that when you complete the quest granting the companion, a set of blue quality gear is mailed to you.

 

If you are creating max level characters on the PTS, with reasonable (not BIS, but reasonable), there should be no gearing issues. The characters are ALREADY max level and geared. You are sent a set of reasonable for each companion when you get that companion. There should also be no issues with money, as skills are free. I fail to see the urgent need to purchase anything, since the only thing those interested parties claim to want is to see the stories.

[Clarian]

 

Would you be satisfied if BW allowed the creation of max level characters on the PTS?

 

At max level, you should be able to go a zoom through the stories uninterrupted.

 

IMO, anyone who's TRUE goal is simply to experience the stories should find this satisfactory.

From what I've seen, the reason most people want 12x xp is to see the class stories. And putting it on the PTS doesn't change the economics of it at all. Bioware would still likely be forgoing revenue (due to people spending less time with the game than without 12x xp).