12 x XP for class-missions

[TUXs]

Lots of words but no punch.

FPS or RPG got nothing to do with my point.

You still haven't eplxained how me getting a level capped toon instead of having to grind through stuff I ALREADY DID 3 TIMES BEFORE will damage YOUR gameplay.

It doesn't. Some people just have control issues.

[Ratajack]

Question for Ratajack, Liquor & Ekidu

Have you EVER had a toon under level 60 and

Used an XP tab?

Played during double XP weekend?

Received 12xXP during the promotion?

Been in a guild providing XP addons?

 

Yes, I have used the currently available XP boosts on characters below level 60.

 

No, I have never played during a double XP weekend.

 

Yes, I preordered the expansion and so was eligible for the 12XP boost, but I never leveled any characters during that time. The extremely limited time I spent in game during that promotion (due to RL commitments) was spent on managing crew skills and the GTN.

 

I have characters in three different guilds. I am the only account in one of the guilds, the other guilds have about a dozen accounts, not all of which are active. If any of those guilds give my characters bonus XP, then the answer to your question is "yes".

 

 

If the point you are trying to make is that XP boosts already exist in game, that has been acknowledged. The existence of XP boosts does not justify the creation of a "light speed, easy mode, fast pass, cater to my laziness" means of leveling, though.

Edited March 11, 2015 by Ratajack

[Yojiro]

OMG lol! Your false dramatization about how bad this was is complete and absolute bull.

 

12xXP was great for the game, bad players remained bad players and people got their gear like they always did.

 

Only nosy people with no life care how anyone reached 60...it's absolutely a non-factor...seriously, why the hell do you care HOW someone reaches 60?! It's a freaking game...enjoy it!!! If that means a new 60 to play with, great!!! If that means leveling up the original way, go for it!

 

12x Xp = 3/4 days, at the most, for anyone with a decent amount of time to level a 60. That means players will not have as much knowledge of their classes as it is recommended: which will impact their performance in endgame PVP/PVE group situations (Except of course if they are playing a class that they have already "mastered"), causing the group performance to drop overall, etc etc....

 

I don't think he's being nosy at all. He's just showing a (very, imo) possible outcome of the impact of speed leveling characters in endgame group content.

Edited March 11, 2015 by Yojiro

[TUXs]

12x Xp = 3/4 days, at the most, for anyone with a decent amount of time to level a 60. That means players will not have as much knowledge of their classes as it is recommended: which will impact their performance in endgame PVP/PVE group situations (Except of course if they are playing a class that they have already "mastered"), causing the group performance to drop overall, etc etc....

 

I don't think he's being nosy at all. He's just showing a (very, imo) possible outcome of the impact of speed leveling characters in endgame group content.

I think he is and I think you are being irrational.

 

First, most people asking for this are asking for it to be a LEGACY perk (meaning it's not the players first character). One character is all it takes to get the basics of SWTOR...this game's not nearly as complex as you are making it out to be.

 

Second, you're talking about group issues...even if he grinds his character 1-60 on every mission, there's a VERY good chance that a player will NEVER group from 1-60. This changes nothing.

 

Finally, I actually believe 12xXP made me a better player on my Microwave Merc because I out leveled all my gear and my companion was in whatever crap Treek comes in. Because I was so under geared, I absolutely HAD to play better!

 

Bottom line - 12xXP didn't have anything but a positive impact on the game.

[Ratajack]

I think he is and I think you are being irrational.

 

First, most people asking for this are asking for it to be a LEGACY perk (meaning it's not the players first character). One character is all it takes to get the basics of SWTOR...this game's not nearly as complex as you are making it out to be.

 

Second, you're talking about group issues...even if he grinds his character 1-60 on every mission, there's a VERY good chance that a player will NEVER group from 1-60. This changes nothing.

 

Finally, I actually believe 12xXP made me a better player on my Microwave Merc because I out leveled all my gear and my companion was in whatever crap Treek comes in. Because I was so under geared, I absolutely HAD to play better!

 

Bottom line - 12xXP didn't have anything but a positive impact on the game.

 

And all those forum threads made by people wanting free gear, and people describing how 12XP affected FP's and OP's never happened? Are you going to accuse them of being untruthful for some ulterior motive?

 

You may have had a positive experience with the 12XP, but not everyone did.

[Yojiro]

I think he is and I think you are being irrational.

 

First, most people asking for this are asking for it to be a LEGACY perk (meaning it's not the players first character). One character is all it takes to get the basics of SWTOR...this game's not nearly as complex as you are making it out to be.

 

Second, you're talking about group issues...even if he grinds his character 1-60 on every mission, there's a VERY good chance that a player will NEVER group from 1-60. This changes nothing.

 

Finally, I actually believe 12xXP made me a better player on my Microwave Merc because I out leveled all my gear and my companion was in whatever crap Treek comes in. Because I was so under geared, I absolutely HAD to play better!

 

Bottom line - 12xXP didn't have anything but a positive impact on the game.

 

I don't believe any of us (you included) are being irrational - at the most I would say you are showing far more... trust? I guess, in the community than we are (Hell, far more than I am anyway).

 

And to clarify a bit, in my post I am mostly talking about endgame grouping that relies on players knowing their characters and their skill sets from the inside out. This, however, does not validate the fact that there are many, MANY "traditional" 60's out there that have no clue of what they are doing. As for complexity, I am (almost) sure you'll agree with me that the Sniper class and, for example, the Assassin class are worlds apart - the game is not as dumb as you are making it out to be either .

 

Regarding the 12xp as a legacy perk unlock - I am inclined to think the idea less aggressive if it's instated like that, but there's something telling me that EA would want to capitalize on this and make it accessible via CM unlock, regardless of what Eric says... It's just too much of a temptation for them to resist.

 

As for it making you a better player, that is your opinion and, considering what you said, that would put far more pressure on you as a player. But I am pretty sure most players would have the mods at the ready for every possible orange gear upgrade so that they steamroll through everything, just in case their outleveling the quests wouldn't carry them on their own.

 

In the end, you can colour me skeptical, at the best.

[Yojiro]

And all those forum threads made by people wanting free gear, and people describing how 12XP affected FP's and OP's never happened? Are you going to accuse them of being untruthful for some ulterior motive?

 

You may have had a positive experience with the 12XP, but not everyone did.

 

I believe this is the bottom line of this discussion.

Edited March 11, 2015 by Yojiro

[FAAmecanic]

To give players a perk to level up faster at x12 XP on all toons, will cut down the time it takes to level up, players will interact with each other less during the level up process. Sure we will group up for end game, but not everyone is there for end game. With less of the player base interacting, the game fails to be an MMORPG. Instead it slowly turns into a MMOFPS with end game content. Part of the draw to MMO is the level up process, story lines, interactions between players, meeting new people, crafting and end game content.

 

I would honestly say when leveling my 9 other Alts the old fashioned way I rarely ran Heroics or FPs, and skipped planet quests when I could. And Im sure Im not the only one.... So this argument all the anti-12x XP'ers make is somewhat moot.

 

I would say I don't need 12x XP if I could change my characters Class from say Scoundrel to Gunslinger. Or Sentinel to Guardian... if that makes any of you feel better. At this point I have seen all the story lines (except counselor). And would be awesome if BW would allow you to re-run storyline missions (with no gear, credit, or rewards other than seeing the stories un-interrupted). My only 2 real motivations for wanting 12x XP.

[FAAmecanic]

And to clarify a bit, in my post I am mostly talking about endgame grouping that relies on players knowing their characters and their skill sets from the inside out. This, however, does not validate the fact that there are many, MANY "traditional" 60's out there that have no clue of what they are doing. As for complexity, I am (almost) sure you'll agree with me that the Sniper class and, for example, the Assassin class are worlds apart - the game is not as dumb as you are making it out to be either .

 

And as I stated waaayyyy back on page 4 or 5 (lol).... a lot of players (myself included) couldn't play their class after grinding up the hard way. We had to rely on good guildmates, reading forums, or understanding fellow players to help us learn our class. This was my first MMO as far as traditional tank/dps/heal roles. I had NO CLUE how to play my class in a HM Op, and PvE story missions did little to train that.

 

A unknowledgeable player will still be pretty bad after hitting level 55 if all they have done is PvE story/planet missions.

 

Well said.....Yojiro

 

Bottom line.... a player, to be good at HM or OPs has to do some homework (for gearing), and also have some good coaching by someone to understand the intricacies of his/her new class. I did get pretty good at my assassin tank (good enough to be my guilds off tank and main tank if our main was out)...but when I went to play my Pyromech Bounty hunter I had to learn a lot all over again (gearing, rotation...etc) PvE didn't teach me that....I did.

Edited March 11, 2015 by FAAmecanic

[EllieAnne]

And all those forum threads made by people wanting free gear, and people describing how 12XP affected FP's and OP's never happened? Are you going to accuse them of being untruthful for some ulterior motive?

Not untruthful but that experiment is not fair comparison for a couple of reasons.

 

Everyone had access to 12xXP as long as they subbed and bought the expansion and many WABs did not have the account infrastructure to support the toons. I crafted blue gear for my companions, armor, crystals, mod and enhancements for my characters' orange gear and never had a problem. With our proposal even at the bare minimum (1 toon from each mirror class completed Corellia and lvl 50 or higher) gearing should not be an issue.

 

Who would have run a FP or OP or WZ or KDY as it took time from a limited XP boost. Only speaking for myself I dropped an XP tab and ran KDY only to get back on track levelwise as 12xXP tends to have you lag by 2-3 levels by the late 20s. If it were permanent I would run FPs.

[LoverNoFighter]

Take away that piece of **** signature that you have, then. Until then, a pathetic SWG troll is what I'll consider you.

 

I sense much anger towards a dead game in you.

[Yojiro]

I sense much anger towards a dead game in you.

 

Be quiet, the grown ups are talking.

[LoverNoFighter]

Be quiet, the grown ups are talking.

 

Oh the irony.

[CloudCastle]

I'm just having trouble seeing the downsides with this. I'm reading the "no 12x" posts, but I can easily make the exact opposite argument for some of these things and have it be just as likely.

 

I don't think it would lesson the number of people on the lower level planets. I think it could actually increase it, and even bring new life to them. People who don't really level new characters much anymore would have the incentive to do so, and to do so multiple times, not just once.

 

I think it would have zero affect on flashpoints. I could easily make the argument that the people most likely to use this perk aren't doing flashpoints as they level anyway (I never have) and have no interest in doing so. And plenty of long-term players aren't leveling new chars at all, so their loss is null.

 

I don't think it'll affect end game in a negative way, but I do think it could be positive. "Bad" players are often just inexperienced players, who a) probably wouldn't qualify or use this perk anyway and b) aren't learning how to group doing the leveling process as is, especially since FPs are optional anyway.

 

But players already at end game might now have the increased incentive to try a new AC, or to level up an AC they already know from the opposite faction. This could help fill in holes for raiding guilds, or players might find that they actually like a new class better. After 12x, I discovered that I actually liked a few of my new chars more than my current end game ones, and maybe I'll switch to playing them now, who knows. (Still trying to get all my 55's to 60 at the moment.)

 

12x is not how the game was "meant" to be played? Aside from obvious exploits, the game is "meant" to be played any way that the player enjoys it. And there's a big difference between the game play of your first character and your 21st.

 

I think we also need to make a distinction between new players and experienced players. I don't think new players should have the option to use 12x on their first character because they would be at a terrible disadvantage, would probably get frustrated, and might give up and quit. I sure can't imagine trying to play this game with nothing but under-leveled greens and no legacy class boosts. Plus, they would miss out on so much! Therefore, we are only talking about players who have already "paid their dues."

 

Which brings me to the last topic. Laziness. To me "working" for something means overcoming challenges, learning new things, or doing something that is required in order to achieve something else. You work hard to become a black belt in karate, or to make enough money to support your family. Once a person has already achieved their black belt, would you expect them to only practice low level forms over and over and over? Would they be "lazy" if they wanted to skip those exercises and instead work their high level forms? Wanting to play the best parts of the game with future chars is not "lazy." It's called maximizing my fun in my free time.

 

Before 12x came out, I had 8 level 55's, one level 45, three level 25's and a slew of baby alts. I also had legacy level 50 and have played this game uninterrupted since launch. You know what? I think I've paid my dues. Requesting a perk that rewards long term players is not unreasonable.

[Clarian]

Let's look at this logically.

 

Right now, you are playing the game, and subscribing. That generates $15/month. You claim to want to see those stories, some for the first time, and some again. You might quit tomorrow if BW does not cater to your laziness and give you a "fast pass", but you might not. That depends on whether your desire to see the stories outweighs your laziness.

 

Now multiply yourself by all the other players who want the lazy, "fast pass". Some will quit if BW does not cater to their laziness, but I would bet that most will stay. Some of those that stay will likely do what is necessary top level those characters and see those stories and some will leave their low level alts collecting dust waiting for BW to cater to their laziness. Regardless of whether they leave their alts collecting dust or level them, those players are STILL PLAYING and likely paying the subscription.

 

Now let's look at what happens if BW caters to the lazy, "fast pass" crowd. Many will likely pay for the 'fast pass", resulting in a quick one time infusion of revenue for BW, although some will complain that the cost is too high, whatever it is. However, once those players finish the stories, how many will leave, having finished the stories? This could easily result in BW losing substantial long term revenue for a quick one time burst. Which is better for BW in the long term?

 

As far as the economics of what you're saying, I think you're spot on.

 

The accusations of laziness are both uncalled for and irrelevant. It simply doesn't matter what people's motives are - regardless of their motives, 12x xp would have the same negative impact on the longevity of the game.

 

Again, this is a MULTIPLAYER game, not a solo game with cheat codes so that you can skip the game. If you want to play a solo player game, I'm sure you can find one if you check your local game store, There are multitudes of them.

I also don't think this is a single-player vs. multi-player issue. First, every single-player Bioware game has plenty of side-quests. Second, the side-quests and planetary quest lines in this game are soloable, not group only.

 

Specifically, single-player doesn't have to mean non-subscription - witness the fact that many of the people who subscribe to this game have no interest in the multi-player aspect. The subscription model is great for solo players who want to get invested in their characters over the long term and have new content to do with them.

 

(The problem with the multitudes of single player games a the local game store, is...they don't have the stories, voice performances, artwork, music, etc. that this game has. The more solo stuff in this game, the better.)

[TUXs]

You may have had a positive experience with the 12XP, but not everyone did.

Maybe that's true...I'll try to be more polite on this topic, sorry if I came off as hostile.

 

Please keep in mind that the 12xXP we had for this accelerated the number of players using it all at once because it was only available for a short period...if this were to become a Legacy perk, I don't think we'd see another flood like we had.

I don't believe any of us (you included) are being irrational - at the most I would say you are showing far more... trust? I guess, in the community than we are (Hell, far more than I am anyway).

Meh...you're being kind, I was and I apologize.

 

I guess the bottom line for me is, there will ALWAYS be bad players...12xXP doesn't bring in more than anything else does. Players asking for handouts, they'll always exist too. I don't see where 12xXP increased the number of poor players, nor does it take long for the "average" player to be decent at any new class...leveling the traditional way is not as beneficial, imo, as you both seem to think it is.

 

If you're so worried about bad players, stick to your group of friends...if you're in a PuG that's going terrible, jump out or vote kick...you have tools at your disposal already to get rid of terrible players. I don't believe 12xXP makes anyone worse than they normally would be...there are always learning curves when someone attempts something new...and I'm ok with that.

[Yojiro]

And as I stated waaayyyy back on page 4 or 5 (lol).... a lot of players (myself included) couldn't play their class after grinding up the hard way. We had to rely on good guildmates, reading forums, or understanding fellow players to help us learn our class. This was my first MMO as far as traditional tank/dps/heal roles. I had NO CLUE how to play my class in a HM Op, and PvE story missions did little to train that.

 

A unknowledgeable player will still be pretty bad after hitting level 55 if all they have done is PvE story/planet missions.

 

Well said.....Yojiro

 

Bottom line.... a player, to be good at HM or OPs has to do some homework (for gearing), and also have some good coaching by someone to understand the intricacies of his/her new class. I did get pretty good at my assassin tank (good enough to be my guilds off tank and main tank if our main was out)...but when I went to play my Pyromech Bounty hunter I had to learn a lot all over again (gearing, rotation...etc) PvE didn't teach me that....I did.

 

I guess that varies from player to player. I tend to get a pretty good feel of the class as I level up, or so I believe anyway: usually the rotations I use aren't far off from the optimal, the gearing is as I'd imagine etc etc after I check the internet and talk with more experienced class players. Please note I am not gloating - I guess it's just the best way for me to learn the class. This, I will admit, may skew my views on this particular issue .

 

And even though I agree that the internet and other, more experienced players helping out with their knowledge is a wonderful help that will minimize the shock that is the speed leveling under the 12x XP regime, I am pretty sure not all players will bother doing that. And those players will have even less experience with their class than they previously had - they will suck even more, causing the endgame group impact aforementioned.

[Yojiro]

Oh the irony.

 

Prove me wrong. Stop being a (stupid at that) troll and grow a brain.

[EllieAnne]

I guess the bottom line for me is, there will ALWAYS be bad players...12xXP doesn't bring in more than anything else does.

 

Two days ago I ran KDY with a tank that couldn't hold aggro and a healer that had no clue how to lower threat. Can't blame that on 12xXP Incidentally they were both in their 50s.

[LoverNoFighter]

Prove me wrong. Stop being a (stupid at that) troll and grow a brain.

 

Please stop with the irony already.

[Yojiro]

Two days ago I ran KDY with a tank that couldn't hold aggro and a healer that had no clue how to lower threat. Can't blame that on 12xXP Incidentally they were both in their 50s.

 

I am not saying there aren't bad players already. There are and they will always exist. And while I agree that good players will adapt easily to the new class after awhile and will blend seamlessly back into the fray, those bad players will be worse and will make for worse PUG experiences. They will affect Regular PVP, solo Ranked PVP (the latter being the catastrophe we all know it already is), Group Finder, etc, etc.

 

Maybe I am just showing too little faith in the community, or I am just tired of seeing 60's who already have no idea of what they're doing and am letting that affect me. Meh.

[DarthDymond]

Prove me wrong. Stop being a (stupid at that) troll and grow a brain.

Getting into a back-and-forth accomplishes nothing if you're dealing with a genuine troll - the 'ignore' button, on the other hand, works wonders.

 

On-Topic: even if there are legitimate concerns about how a 12x XP purchasable or Legacy Perk will impact the 'quality' of the average player and lower the availability of players looking to PUG at lower levels, I believe the benefits would significantly outweigh those 'costs'. I can deal with walking a healer through the process of dropping threat a lot easier than I can deal with there not being enough healers available. And BW has already hinted that they may look into putting in solo-modes for some of the story-heavy low-level FPs.

[Yojiro]

Getting into a back-and-forth accomplishes nothing if you're dealing with a genuine troll - the 'ignore' button, on the other hand, works wonders.

 

True enough. Thanks.

[EnkiduNineEight]

I am going to address just ONE of these points. Because its one of them that is most often missed/misunderstood. The rest of them as well have been explained and re-explained, you can not present an equal opposite argument/explanation butt... whats the point.

 

I'm just having trouble seeing the downsides with this. I'm reading the "no 12x" posts, but I can easily make the exact opposite argument for some of these things and have it be just as likely.

 

I don't think it would lesson the number of people on the lower level planets. I think it could actually increase it, and even bring new life to them. People who don't really level new characters much anymore would have the incentive to do so, and to do so multiple times, not just once.

 

The concern is NOT how many low level players there are. The concern is how many low level players doing low level content that requires a group there are, and how many low level players who will be interacting with other low level players because they are doing the same quests and experiencing the same leveling curve there are.. Most specifically, NEW players or players without a 12x boost.

 

12x EXP boost for 'just class quests' means that you do not need to do any other quest on most all of the starting planets or subsequent planets. This means you only have to do your class story quests to gain more than enough experience to leave the planet.

 

This means you don't do any of the other 'grindy' quests (though most every single one of them is voice acted and part of a story) meaning the 12x Player has no reason to tal to, group with, interact with any other player.

 

So sure, you may have 60+ people on Tython or Korriban, but only 3 of them are actually playing the game, and the others are zooming through class missions on their way to the fleet so they can rush off to Coruscant/Dromund Kaas and blitz through the class quests to get their ship so they can rush off to another planet and do more class quests and never once interact with or do anything with any other player, touch any planetary quests, find a group or respnd to a grouping request toperform a heroic, etc.

 

Sothey are 'present' but they are not contributingin any way t the population.

 

Which may actually be WORSE than a slightly barren planet because the new players experience is that the majority of the players are impatient a-holes who can't be bothered to give you the time of day, who rush through and take mobs etc that you were killing and then rush off to the next step without so much as a how do you do... etc. because they are too focused in rushing through the main story line and don't want to be bothered with anything else.

 

YES, I understand some players ill still putter and do other things, but then they don't really need the 12x then do they?

 

But the vast majority of the people using this easy mode/accelerated leveling will be doing it with the express purposes of maxxing out their character so they can move on to the next one or their next FOTM build and they really don't care at all about anything but that.

 

it was bad enough as a brief pre-order bonus, it would be much worse if it were on 100% of the time for whoever could 'afford' it.

[EnkiduNineEight]

On-Topic: even if there are legitimate concerns about how a 12x XP purchasable or Legacy Perk will impact the 'quality' of the average player and lower the availability of players looking to PUG at lower levels, I believe the benefits would significantly outweigh those 'costs'. I can deal with walking a healer through the process of dropping threat a lot easier than I can deal with there not being enough healers available. And BW has already hinted that they may look into putting in solo-modes for some of the story-heavy low-level FPs.

 

There's no evidence that these people will remain attached. Most who make the arguments for 12x state they are quitting or already have quit because it takes too long to see the content for subsequent characters.

 

The logical extrapolation of this is, if they are already willing to quit because they are bored of doing stuff, if you give them a fast way to do stuff, they'll do it all, then get bored and they'll still leave.

 

So what you gain, at best, is a very short term period of activity and then lose the player just as you had already supposedly lost the player. They're not suddenly going to decide that doing planetary quests was boring and a grind but doing the same FP/Ops over and over and over again is not a grind and is not boring.

 

Or if they want to run through story quests over and over and over again as that's the only thing they want to do, they're not going to be contributing to your need for an extra healer anyway because they're off re-doing the story for the 'n'th time.

 

Any gains in population will be short term because these gains are from players who have already demonstrated they quit when they get done with something or hit a wall and the inevitable outcome of 12x X is they hit the get done with it/hit that wall and they are enabled to do so faster.