Why the new Operations are threatening to kill the game.

[soowonlee]

One problem that's probably been stated multiple times in various threads is that the leveling process is only loosely connected to end game PvE. Mission objectives invariably come down to either killing x number of enemies or clicking on y number of things. So, healing or tanking plays little, if any role in leveling. Furthermore, dps requirements are almost non-existent. You could probably finish most quests using only your auto attack. Where there are boss fights, mechanics, if there are any, are usually trivial and can be ignored.

 

It would have been better if Bioware designed the leveling process to function more as an extended tutorial for end game PvE and PvP. Since they didn't, it should surprise no one that we have a player base the majority of which have no knowledge of how to raid.

 

Basically, instead of looking at the problem as a gap between two groups of players, it may be more constructive to look at the problem as a gap between two kinds of game content.

[JouerTue]

One problem that's probably been stated multiple times in various threads is that the leveling process is only loosely connected to end game PvE. Mission objectives invariably come down to either killing x number of enemies or clicking on y number of things. So, healing or tanking plays little, if any role in leveling. Furthermore, dps requirements are almost non-existent. You could probably finish most quests using only your auto attack. Where there are boss fights, mechanics, if there are any, are usually trivial and can be ignored.

 

It would have been better if Bioware designed the leveling process to function more as an extended tutorial for end game PvE and PvP. Since they didn't, it should surprise no one that we have a player base the majority of which have no knowledge of how to raid.

 

Basically, instead of looking at the problem as a gap between two groups of players, it may be more constructive to look at the problem as a gap between two kinds of game content.

 

last boss in makeb storyline wasn't and got nerfed at least twice..and there there was just a laser+slow, which was probably more than that tier of ops proposed to players in most fights in sm, and we don't count a lot of mechanics that involve tanks only..

[FerkWork]

last boss in makeb storyline wasn't and got nerfed at least twice..and there there was just a laser+slow, which was probably more than that tier of ops proposed to players in most fights in sm, and we don't count a lot of mechanics that involve tanks only..

 

When I did Makeb the first time this summer I had no idea about the bolster thing and wearing green armor so I did it without it and boy it was fun. Especially last boss and the Droid you had to use the lasers on.

[FerkWork]

One problem that's probably been stated multiple times in various threads is that the leveling process is only loosely connected to end game PvE. Mission objectives invariably come down to either killing x number of enemies or clicking on y number of things. So, healing or tanking plays little, if any role in leveling. Furthermore, dps requirements are almost non-existent. You could probably finish most quests using only your auto attack. Where there are boss fights, mechanics, if there are any, are usually trivial and can be ignored.

 

It would have been better if Bioware designed the leveling process to function more as an extended tutorial for end game PvE and PvP. Since they didn't, it should surprise no one that we have a player base the majority of which have no knowledge of how to raid.

 

Basically, instead of looking at the problem as a gap between two groups of players, it may be more constructive to look at the problem as a gap between two kinds of game content.

 

In essence it really is two games., leveling is essentially was designed almost as a spiritual successor to KOTOR with little emphasis on MMO raid prep as the selling point of it was the storyline. Since the addition of much more endgame and change of the people calling the shots at the top the game is becoming more of the standard MMO with heavier focus on endgame raiding.However due to the nature of the game BW at this point can't fix it without tearing down the whole thing.

 

Also a big issue I find that many things that are necessary for endgame raiding, class guides, stat builders, communication services, and what not come from third parties rather than BW and more importantly ingame. Dulfy and Zorz do a great job in getting these guides out but I think it just shows how as a community we are very dependent on these sources. I mean if Zorz and Dulfy decided one day for whatever reason to stop making guides we would be very lacking as BW doesn't provide any info to help out those wanting to learn how to raid. On the communication thing thos game would benefit by having a built in VOIP system.

Edited February 27, 2015 by FerkWork

[Declan_Vee]

Basically, instead of looking at the problem as a gap between two groups of players, it

may be more constructive to look at the problem as a gap between two kinds of game content.

Maybe, of course if there were any kind of "x-check" mechanics in the levelling process people would just complain, demand nerfs, or beg in genchat to group for it (see: Bothrium beast, Commander Zaoron and Archon)

[Pirate_Scuba]

Operations are the Team based Pve ENDGAME content and their difficulty should reflect this, which IMO it currently does. There should be no argument for content to be nerfed so that people can ignore mechanics or to easily gain ultimate comms that have no real benefit for anything, especially if you are not a raider. There are plenty of lower level and lower difficulty Ops for players to learn mechanics/gameplay/team strategy in the game, so they do not need to L2P in the max lvl environment (there are also a large number of guilds recruiting for "casual raiding" which will assist with this).

 

Do people jump straight into Ranked Pvp without any prior experience and then QQ because they get dominated and complain that expertise should be nerfed or bolster increased?

 

In regards to Casual players, i know that many guilds would be happy to have (irregular but skilled) Casual players who cannot commit on a regular basis but are available to fill holes in their rosters (insert shameless recruitment link here), so just not being able to attend regularly will not necessarily stop you from participating.

 

For inexperienced players many PUG's are actually quite patient in regards to explaining & allowing you to learn mechanics but get frustrated that people continue so fail at simple mechanics, showing either inattentiveness or lack of awareness of either the environment (after all it is Player vs Environment) or their class.

 

TL;DR - Disagree with OP, think they're fine as they are.

[Marb]

I feel that removing ultimates from boss drops in SM ops was a good change. It creates a clear gear progression path and places a greater emphasis on tokens. The rewards should reflect the gear needed to progress to the next tier, with ultimates giving you a sample of the gear from the next tier up. Commendations should be a carrot on a stick for the next tier, and allow you to fill in the gaps with temporary upgrades. This also keeps gear inflation down, and reduces the amount of double xp Kuat Drive yard ultimate comm heroes.

 

The devs should rebalance some specific SM Ops bosses (regardless as to how people may feel about making SM easier, the last boss should at least be the hardest, not the easiest). HM flashpoints are a waste of time, and are far too hard for the target audience.

Edited February 27, 2015 by Marb

[soowonlee]

Continuing from my point, here's a suggestion that seems relatively feasible. In addition to dailies, side quests, and heroic missions, why not add mini games that are designed to improve PvE or PvP gameplay? These sorts of things already exist in game in the form of challenges in the Raptus fight. These mini games can take various forms, like killing a target while avoiding circles and conals, healing multiple targets through burst and sustained damage, holding threat on multiple targets while using cooldowns to survive.

 

These missions would be optional, so people can't really complain, and they can be peppered throughout the leveling process, as well as being available as dailies. These can fit easily within the narrative framework of any class, since everyone loves training montages in action movies.

[Island_Jedi]

Operations are the Team based Pve ENDGAME content and their difficulty should reflect this, which IMO it currently does. There should be no argument for content to be nerfed so that people can ignore mechanics or to easily gain ultimate comms that have no real benefit for anything, especially if you are not a raider. There are plenty of lower level and lower difficulty Ops for players to learn mechanics/gameplay/team strategy in the game, so they do not need to L2P in the max lvl environment (there are also a large number of guilds recruiting for "casual raiding" which will assist with this).

 

Do people jump straight into Ranked Pvp without any prior experience and then QQ because they get dominated and complain that expertise should be nerfed or bolster increased?

 

In regards to Casual players, i know that many guilds would be happy to have (irregular but skilled) Casual players who cannot commit on a regular basis but are available to fill holes in their rosters (insert shameless recruitment link here), so just not being able to attend regularly will not necessarily stop you from participating.

 

For inexperienced players many PUG's are actually quite patient in regards to explaining & allowing you to learn mechanics but get frustrated that people continue so fail at simple mechanics, showing either inattentiveness or lack of awareness of either the environment (after all it is Player vs Environment) or their class.

 

TL;DR - Disagree with OP, think they're fine as they are.

 

PVP content does not change based on your skill level. Simply your opponents and rewards will change. What you are proposing is that "SM warriors" do not deserve to experience new content, that they helped pay for. They should enjoy the old content over and over, because SM's should be training grounds for real "progression" raiders. I hate to repeat myself, but NOT everyone views the SM's as a proving ground for the HM's, some of the server simply view them as content to be enjoyed.

 

Dont compare PVP to PVE because they are two very different things. By nature PVP is competitive and PVE is cooperative. Many people avoid pvp because they dont want the stress that comes with having to constantly improve to get some enjoyment of that type of content. Storymode PVE OP's should be a low stress environment where players can have fun playing the game. I dont think any pugs find the underlurker fight, to be low on stress.

 

Mr. Scubz of course you think they are fine the way they are, your a progression raider. Now try to pull your head out of the sand and think about the raids from a non-progression standpoint. Think about the raids as content simply there to A. tell some of the story of the game and B. Simply content to be enjoyed by a more casual audience, not a training ground to become more and not a part of some plan to raise the overall competence of the server. The SM's as they were (DF,DP era) gave "SM warriors" more to do after level up, it gave value to they're continued support as a subscriber. Now what I am hearing is L2P, L2P, L2P to an audience that does not want to learn to play, they simply want to have fun. You are also in essence saying if the game loses a large bulk of casual subsribers, that it is better for the game and we the "progression" raiders will somehow benefit from a game, that is now more underfunded and with a lower population.

 

The amount of players that will improve and adapt to this tier of content, I do not feel will outweigh the amount of paying subscribers that will quit the game all together. We are sacrifing an important aspect of the community, especially because of the numbers they represent, to raise the overall skill of the game. I just hope if thats the way Bioware is going, they have a plan to replace all the lost revenue from the players that will leave the game.

 

Your argument Mr. Scubz is very one-dimensional and I have heard better arguments so far in the name of keeping the Ops as they are. You can not simply look at this game from what you want personally, you have to see the bigger picture and that picture is, you are a part of the game, not the master of others experience in game.

Edited February 27, 2015 by Island_Jedi

[Yezzan]

I have been wanting to respond to this thread for some time now but work has been hectic lately. There is so much to say, it's almost difficult not to write a wall of gibberish lol

 

Anyways, let's clear up the first misconception. There are two types of players; subscribers and free-to-play. Not progression raiders and casuals and PvP-ers.

 

Therefore, all content and their associated rewards should be available to subscribers hassle-free. I paid for the SoR update which came with 2 new Ops and guess what so far ,I have only reached level 60 and completed the Yavin 4 story arc. Haven't done any ops so BW should gimme my money back.

 

here's the thing. I am here because I watched the movies, read a few of the books and loved it. I am not here to clip masterstrike at 0.3 secs and work out complicated formulas for character's stat distribution. And if that's what I need ot do in order to play end game content then someone should be paying me; not the other way around.

 

Every content update should be for the average players who just want to jump in and have fun with a few online friends after a hard day at work IRL. People keep forgetting that this is a game, and treat it like competitive sports.

 

What's the difference between football and SWTOR? They are both games albeit different genres. Footballers actually get paid ALOT of money to play. They may have fun doing it but they definitely not playing for fun. We on the other hand are PAYING to play, and we pay because we want to have fun.

 

HM OPs and HM FPs should just be that. Content for those who which to test themselves but any reward should be mere cosmetic, and not fundamental. You want that cool mount or unique color crystal? Gotta do HM ravagers! The mount is still 110% speed, no faster than any plain ole speeder, and the crystal is still +41 whatever, not stronger than any other color crystal.

 

But if you want your 198 set bonus gear PUG any ole SM ops, get your gear and be out the door with your cup of coffee to catch that train to work. That's the life.

 

The population will continue to dwindle if the BW continue to listen to a few loud voices. But when the dust settles, they will find that the crowd has dispersed and only a handful of people remain.

 

What do I enjoy out of this game? The cutscenes (story), stomping on Jensyn's face, flinging my lightsaber from 30m away, choking the crap out of somebody and force storm. That's what I paid $15 per month for.

 

You cant even enjoy the frigging Ops because the whole time you are concerned about your buff/debuff bars, HP, CDs, DCDs and that of your teammates. Are you having fun while playing those OPs? Not likely. Wait that idiot did not move out of orbital strike! get away from sweeping blaster!! I'm pretty sure that idiot tried to move out of the BIG RED/BLUE circle but no one noticed that his server status bar was showing red.

[Shoraan]

Continuing from my point, here's a suggestion that seems relatively feasible. In addition to dailies, side quests, and heroic missions, why not add mini games that are designed to improve PvE or PvP gameplay? These sorts of things already exist in game in the form of challenges in the Raptus fight. These mini games can take various forms, like killing a target while avoiding circles and conals, healing multiple targets through burst and sustained damage, holding threat on multiple targets while using cooldowns to survive.

 

These missions would be optional, so people can't really complain, and they can be peppered throughout the leveling process, as well as being available as dailies. These can fit easily within the narrative framework of any class, since everyone loves training montages in action movies.

 

Mini-Games to improve one's knowledge wih gear and rotations are not a bad idea but if they don't offer rewards, I'm not sure if people are inclined to engage in them. At the end of the day, this is still a game that people play for enjoyment, and not something that should require taking practice lessons.

 

I would be very interested to see numbers regarding the use of training dummies. How many people have actually unlocked the training dummy on their ship and how many have used them or the public ones at least once. But even then, people would need to install parser software to actually get any useful information from them. How many people out there actually install a parser? And should that even be required to participate in SM ops? GSF and ground PVP offer ingame information after a match that is quite useful. Damage dealt, healing received, even hit %, are good indicators. I wouldn't be opposed to having something like that after finishing an operation or downing a boss.

 

Instead of modifying the levelling content (which would be too late for those who already have their toons at max level and don't want to level another toon) I'd welcome the addition of Mini-Ops like TC. TC's mechanics are fairly easy but they cover the basics, e.g. move out of red circle, handle adds, move out of center every x seconds to not get one-shot.

 

Instead of having one ops with five bosses, make five ops with one boss. That would also avoid the lockout issue where people have difficulties to join a new group if the are locked out at the first boss. (Not impossible to find a new group, but certainly more difficult than finding one without any lockouts).

 

I think that these Mini-Ops would be more accessible than the current 5-boss-ops, because they are more likely to be completed. Some people may see downing the first boss as success already, but I rate everything below ops completion as failure. The chance to actually complete Rav or ToS with a PUG at the moment is very low. Downing the first boss, on the other hand, is quite possible.

 

I'm sure nobody wants players that join a PUG planning to leave immediately after the first boss, because they know that the chance to complete the ops is minimal. Mini-Ops would avoid that problem.

Edited February 27, 2015 by Shoraan

[Shwarzchild]

I have been wanting to respond to this thread for some time now but work has been hectic lately. There is so much to say, it's almost difficult not to write a wall of gibberish lol

 

Anyways, let's clear up the first misconception. There are two types of players; subscribers and free-to-play. Not progression raiders and casuals and PvP-ers.

 

Therefore, all content and their associated rewards should be available to subscribers hassle-free. I paid for the SoR update which came with 2 new Ops and guess what so far ,I have only reached level 60 and completed the Yavin 4 story arc. Haven't done any ops so BW should gimme my money back.

 

here's the thing. I am here because I watched the movies, read a few of the books and loved it. I am not here to clip masterstrike at 0.3 secs and work out complicated formulas for character's stat distribution. And if that's what I need ot do in order to play end game content then someone should be paying me; not the other way around.

 

Every content update should be for the average players who just want to jump in and have fun with a few online friends after a hard day at work IRL. People keep forgetting that this is a game, and treat it like competitive sports.

 

What's the difference between football and SWTOR? They are both games albeit different genres. Footballers actually get paid ALOT of money to play. They may have fun doing it but they definitely not playing for fun. We on the other hand are PAYING to play, and we pay because we want to have fun.

 

HM OPs and HM FPs should just be that. Content for those who which to test themselves but any reward should be mere cosmetic, and not fundamental. You want that cool mount or unique color crystal? Gotta do HM ravagers! The mount is still 110% speed, no faster than any plain ole speeder, and the crystal is still +41 whatever, not stronger than any other color crystal.

 

But if you want your 198 set bonus gear PUG any ole SM ops, get your gear and be out the door with your cup of coffee to catch that train to work. That's the life.

 

The population will continue to dwindle if the BW continue to listen to a few loud voices. But when the dust settles, they will find that the crowd has dispersed and only a handful of people remain.

 

What do I enjoy out of this game? The cutscenes (story), stomping on Jensyn's face, flinging my lightsaber from 30m away, choking the crap out of somebody and force storm. That's what I paid $15 per month for.

 

You cant even enjoy the frigging Ops because the whole time you are concerned about your buff/debuff bars, HP, CDs, DCDs and that of your teammates. Are you having fun while playing those OPs? Not likely. Wait that idiot did not move out of orbital strike! get away from sweeping blaster!! I'm pretty sure that idiot tried to move out of the BIG RED/BLUE circle but no one noticed that his server status bar was showing red.

 

I know these are your personal views, and I appreciate you sharing them here. I hold different views. I am on the opposite end of the spectrum. I don't want to be given things for basically no work. I love the challenge. The 198 gear with set bonuses is definitely more for the stat warrior than someone who just wants a taste so I have to ask why do you want it? Outside of just being a completionist of sorts, what's the purpose? I guess the main question is why do you run operations if they require you to do a bit more instead of not really worrying about anything? I guess another question I'd have is why can't you do older operations that allow for the quick easy type of play you desire, or just flashpoints which are much faster and don't require half as much thought? My problem with your post is that you seem like you feel entitled to all content, no matter what it is, and it must be designed with you in mind. There's millions of people in this game, and maybe more think like you, maybe more think like me. I have no idea. All I know is that there has to be a balance. There really isn't any balance with what you ask for in your post. For some the end game content in it's current form is what's fun for them. and what you propose with the basic stripping the operations of that value ruins it for them. And they pay for the game, too. I'd suspect a far greater percentage of end game content enthusiasts subscribe to the game than the casual person who simply wants to experience x for a small amount of time.

 

Moreover, if you don't find the endgame content fun, why do you play it? And, why do you demand it be simplified for your desires? This game caters to a wide audience: story-aholics who want to experience lots of single player pve type stuff. People who want to pvp either in space or on the ground, end game raiders, collectors, you name it there's probably something in the game that is directed at them (regardless of quality). Not all of it is for everyone in a person's current state. There's a learning curve to all of it, and because you don't feel like learning doesn't equate to a necessary need to over simplify things. Your attitude is one I really really get ticked off by. Why is your fun any more important than mine when we both pay? Your idea of what this game should be is spacebar the content and see the movies. That's all well and good, but to demand that someone who thinks this game is fun for the operations and challenges those put forward change their idea of what a game is to them because you don't agree is far fetched. I honestly think you shouldn't be raiding. You don't need anything from them outside of just greed. Maybe you're trolling me, and totally baited me, Im not entirely sure. But wow, I definitely don't agree with you at all.

 

There really have been good ideas tossed around in here regarding specific bosses, which I'm sure Bioware is monitoring. After all Lost Island got a nerf after they found that not enough people were clearing it. Same with Soa in eternity vault back when. If the nerf doesn't come then everyone who is thinking they can't clear it because it's too hard might actually be wrong, and that the content IS being cleared at a sufficient or above sufficient level.

[Shwarzchild]

I wanted to add that the population is quite stable regardless of what anyone reads on this forum. If youve been here since the beginning you know what a dwindling population looks like. This game isnt in dire straits. There are things that need to be addressed, but overall this game is quite safe. Just because someone says they quit on here usually doesn't match reality. I've seen people who say they quit but never leave.

[Kacynski]

There really have been good ideas tossed around in here regarding specific bosses, which I'm sure Bioware is monitoring. After all Lost Island got a nerf after they found that not enough people were clearing it. Same with Soa in eternity vault back when. If the nerf doesn't come then everyone who is thinking they can't clear it because it's too hard might actually be wrong, and that the content IS being cleared at a sufficient or above sufficient level.

 

I think this is a very correct assessment. Time will tell if OPs are too hard or not in BW's book. I for one would be surprised if it is not going to be toned down a bit, but we can only wait and see. My guess is with NiM, they will tone down SM and HM respectively.

 

And inb4 "then the whiners got what they wanted". I don't think BW is listening to whining. They have their metrics and their internal goals they want to meet. Decisions will be made on that basis and not on how loud the crying is on the forums (which is rather silent in respect to OP's difficulty in General Discussion).

[Akushii]

I completely agree with this thread. I am part of two different guild (one on pub side and one on imp side). One of my guild is a progression PvE guild and has ~8 progression teams that run the content at different levels. We use the SM Operations as 'learning' operations in order to train newcomers, get people familiar with new mechanics and a chance for everyone on the team to get to know each other and their play style.

 

My other guild however is a medium sized casual guild focused on community and cooperation. I am a raid leader in this guild and lead people through all the contents. Prior to 3.0, it was my job (along with some senior members) to teach everyone participating in STORYMODE operations the mechanics of the game as well as to show them how to improve their play style and play their characters properly. The storymode operations were a no barrier entry point for any casual members and players new to operations as a whole. While there are many guides and information out there, I did not expect everyone to pour over all of this and do hours of research in order to run storymode OPS. Many of the players are parents and have limited time to play between work and taking care of kids. So after the kids go to bed, everyone comes together to run operations several times a night to enjoy each others company, have a laugh and more importantly relax. We come together to relive our stress by running content together for 2 hours a night, not be even more stressed out after running the operation. My goal as a raid leader is to make it easy for my guild members to log in in the evening and run a story mode operation and enjoy themselves.

 

We don't discourage new players or someone who just hit 60 and may not be as familiar with their characters. We have Hardmode operations for that and have a set of requirements to join Hardmode runs. Few of us in the guild have done the hard work, grinded through hardmode flashpoints and dailies and got our gear, so we can make it easier for others. We did the hard work as senior members of the guild, learned mechanics, tactics and geared up, so we can lead casual members by the hand easily and encourage them to come back next week.

 

However, with the status of storymode operations currently, this has proven a little difficult. While we are able to get through Ravagers with some adapted guild specific strategies for each fight, we cannot get past ToS SM. This has lead to our casual members dropping off the game and dwindling our raid runs.

 

I think HM is fine where it is, but SM definitely needs to be slightly easier to allow everyone to enjoy the content at least once.

[Shwarzchild]

I completely agree with this thread. I am part of two different guild (one on pub side and one on imp side). One of my guild is a progression PvE guild and has ~8 progression teams that run the content at different levels. We use the SM Operations as 'learning' operations in order to train newcomers, get people familiar with new mechanics and a chance for everyone on the team to get to know each other and their play style.

 

My other guild however is a medium sized casual guild focused on community and cooperation. I am a raid leader in this guild and lead people through all the contents. Prior to 3.0, it was my job (along with some senior members) to teach everyone participating in STORYMODE operations the mechanics of the game as well as to show them how to improve their play style and play their characters properly. The storymode operations were a no barrier entry point for any casual members and players new to operations as a whole. While there are many guides and information out there, I did not expect everyone to pour over all of this and do hours of research in order to run storymode OPS. Many of the players are parents and have limited time to play between work and taking care of kids. So after the kids go to bed, everyone comes together to run operations several times a night to enjoy each others company, have a laugh and more importantly relax. We come together to relive our stress by running content together for 2 hours a night, not be even more stressed out after running the operation. My goal as a raid leader is to make it easy for my guild members to log in in the evening and run a story mode operation and enjoy themselves.

 

We don't discourage new players or someone who just hit 60 and may not be as familiar with their characters. We have Hardmode operations for that and have a set of requirements to join Hardmode runs. Few of us in the guild have done the hard work, grinded through hardmode flashpoints and dailies and got our gear, so we can make it easier for others. We did the hard work as senior members of the guild, learned mechanics, tactics and geared up, so we can lead casual members by the hand easily and encourage them to come back next week.

 

However, with the status of storymode operations currently, this has proven a little difficult. While we are able to get through Ravagers with some adapted guild specific strategies for each fight, we cannot get past ToS SM. This has lead to our casual members dropping off the game and dwindling our raid runs.

 

I think HM is fine where it is, but SM definitely needs to be slightly easier to allow everyone to enjoy the content at least once.

 

This is a great post, and seriously well done on taking the load to help new people out. What I like about this post is it should show the casual people in here claiming they can't join a guild, or do this, or do that, that there are guilds / places out there that fit their desired play styles, and that pugging isn't the only option they have if they are on a limited schedule, or what not. I hope it shows them that there are better options available that will help. All it takes is a little effort.

 

I think after a lot of back and forth, we all can agree that to balance story mode a nerf is most likely in store for certain bosses, and when that comes it should help those who are feeling a bit overwhelmed by the new content.

[lorddahl]

the story modes are not that hard they require alittle bit of thought though this is different than the painfully easy sm dp and df where u could be asleep at the wheel and still beat it by pushing random buttons. The problem is that people dont want to learn the mechanics and want stuff handed to them

[FerkWork]

the story modes are not that hard they require alittle bit of thought though this is different than the painfully easy sm dp and df where u could be asleep at the wheel and still beat it by pushing random buttons. The problem is that people dont want to learn the mechanics and want stuff handed to them

 

I agree but want to point out that that the new ops are as "hard" as DF and DP were on release before nerfs and everyone was way over geared. When they first came out wipes were as common on Draxus by pugs as Bulo is now. And until people learned to kill the small adds first on Bestia many pugs still failed the first boss. Don't forget the pre nerf Council with Tyrans make it a fun fight by spamming death marks . To me the bosses are as difficult as when all the new ops came out on SM. And heck, ToS only needs 2 tanks for Malaphar and Sword Squadron, the rest can be easily down with 1 tank.

Edited February 27, 2015 by FerkWork

[Lecto]

There are also L2P problems in this game and plenty of them. Progression raiders can have a tendency to exaggerate problems that can be solved with L2P, but they are also a real phenomenon as the massive weird people you meet in groupfinder thread attests.

 

How do we solve these issues? The WoW system that might be helpful is proving grounds-type pre-requisites to queue for harder content. Proving grounds are a test which shows you can at least perform basic tasks for your role, whether ti be DPS, healer or tank. To queue for heroic dungeons, the WoW equivalent of HM FPs, you have to pass the silver proving ground test for your role. Again this would mitigate, but not of course eliminate, stupid behaviour in higher end content. It should include things which require a particular level of DPS/EHPS to be displayed and also include explicit tests for how not to stand in fire and how to get out of telegraphed boss attacks. In SWTOR it would need to be tweaked of course. The tests would need to be account-wide and take into account advanced class mirroring. So if you pass the DPS test on a sage on one server you should never again be DPS tested for either a sage or sorceror on any other server. This would also stop people who have never tanked or healed before selecting those roles simply to get a quick pop on the content. Another thing that would probably be needed is a warning system when pre-mades queue for HM FPs and SM ops. This would work so that if someone has not passed the relevant proving ground requirements a warning pops up for the rest of the group with the name(s) of the player(s) who do not have the relevant proving grounds requirement. If all of the group agrees to take the player(s) anyway they can click to enter the GF queue. Queue entry would only occur if agreement were unanimous, and the names of those who did not click agree would be displayed in chat. The group leader could then sort out the issue either by removing the players who do not meet the proving grounds requirements or removing the players who object. This would allow guilds to carry someone through content if they want to for example.

 

These tests would only be appropriate as a gate for HM FP and SM ops GF queues since they're the places where roles really do matter and people get seriously cheesed off by noobs wrecking the run.

 

For ranked PvP the fix is simple: do not allow people to do it until they have 2018 expertise.

 

Once the L2P concerns are addressed then we move onto the three real issues with this tier that I outline above.

 

I like this idea.....however, I do feel the new SM content is too hard. I can do it, but not everyone in my Guild can. This has lead to people just not doing the content....heck you can't even gear up in HM-FPs anymore because they are just as hard as the raids, if not more-so in some cases!

[FerkWork]

I like this idea.....however, I do feel the new SM content is too hard. I can do it, but not everyone in my Guild can. This has lead to people just not doing the content....heck you can't even gear up in HM-FPs anymore because they are just as hard as the raids, if not more-so in some cases!

 

Serious question and not trying to be mean: What bosses/parts and why are they failing? You should record your runs and review combat logs to see where the exact problem is if it's a recurring problem. That said, do these guildes read guides beforehand, parse or read the class guides and gear accordingly? In my old guild we had problems with people not doing any and wanting to raid everyday. I honestly don't know what to say other than the cliche of practice more to get better and see it as. A learning experience rather than get discouraged. Gear won't fix the problem, only by learning your class and the fights can you succeed.

 

192 gear is meant for HM, if people can clear SM with 186 gear optimized then I doubt by having 192 hear will make up for lack of experience. Gear makes it slightly easier if your doing it right not a magic fix if you aren't . As for your guildies I would tell them to practice their rotations and do all of the above.

 

As for the HM FPs, the lack of Vanity items discourages me. BH first boss can be easily cheesed to make it into a tank and spank. The rest of the HM's are easier.

Anyways, it's all about learning the fights and your class. The more they do the easier they will find it.

Edited February 27, 2015 by FerkWork

[MotorCityMan]

A little off the point but in the same vein are the lvl 60 flashpoints. They should be repeatable content that you can do with groups thrown randomly together as a way to gather comms and gear up. As it is, they are too challenging for that.

[soowonlee]

At this point there really shouldn't be any problem with nerfing the SM raids to the ground. All serious progression groups have long since moved past these raids and are only doing them to gear their 3rd or 4th alt. The raids have already been nerfed and will likely be nerfed again.

 

To the casuals out there complaining, what's the big deal? If these raids are too hard for you, then there are are SEVEN other raids available that are well within your grasp. Occupy your time with those until Bioware sufficiently nerfs Rav and ToS to match your playing ability.

 

What I'm basically hearing is this: "I paid $20 of my hard earned money to get the expansion, so I want to be able to clear the content NAO." This just reeks of consumerist entitlement. It follows the formula, "I paid x amount of money, so I am entitled to have whatever unreasonable demand satisfied." People that follow this formula are the ones that make life miserable for those that work in retail.

 

I think Bioware's approach of nerfing by degrees is the right one. The subscribing population is one divided into various tiers of playing ability. Since SM is a gear gateway into HM, it should be sufficiently hard to prepare more serious raiders for HM content. Once the hardcore raiders have moved on, casuals can also see the content at a lower level of difficulty. It makes no sense to reverse this formula and start with the SM raids being easier.

 

People talk about how they pay money to be able to see the content without having to work. There is also a non-trivial number of people who pay money to experience a challenge. While there are some casuals that are subscribers, all, or almost all hardcore raiders are subscribers. Casuals threaten to leave the game because it is too hard. Whether or not a significant number of these players have actually left the game due to its difficulty is unclear. However, every progression raider can tell you of at least a few people who have unsubscribed because the game is too easy. Bioware has given plenty of things for casuals to do in this game: leveling, dailies, bounties, GSI, Dread Seed missions, datacrons, world bosses, conquest, world events, space missions, strongholds, flashpoints, etc, etc, etc. We hardcore raiders only have our raids. Please don't take that away from us.

[DieGhostDie]

At this point there really shouldn't be any problem with nerfing the SM raids to the ground. All serious progression groups have long since moved past these raids and are only doing them to gear their 3rd or 4th alt. The raids have already been nerfed and will likely be nerfed again.

 

To the casuals out there complaining, what's the big deal? If these raids are too hard for you, then there are are SEVEN other raids available that are well within your grasp. Occupy your time with those until Bioware sufficiently nerfs Rav and ToS to match your playing ability.

 

What I'm basically hearing is this: "I paid $20 of my hard earned money to get the expansion, so I want to be able to clear the content NAO." This just reeks of consumerist entitlement. It follows the formula, "I paid x amount of money, so I am entitled to have whatever unreasonable demand satisfied." People that follow this formula are the ones that make life miserable for those that work in retail.

 

I think Bioware's approach of nerfing by degrees is the right one. The subscribing population is one divided into various tiers of playing ability. Since SM is a gear gateway into HM, it should be sufficiently hard to prepare more serious raiders for HM content. Once the hardcore raiders have moved on, casuals can also see the content at a lower level of difficulty. It makes no sense to reverse this formula and start with the SM raids being easier.

 

People talk about how they pay money to be able to see the content without having to work. There is also a non-trivial number of people who pay money to experience a challenge. While there are some casuals that are subscribers, all, or almost all hardcore raiders are subscribers. Casuals threaten to leave the game because it is too hard. Whether or not a significant number of these players have actually left the game due to its difficulty is unclear. However, every progression raider can tell you of at least a few people who have unsubscribed because the game is too easy. Bioware has given plenty of things for casuals to do in this game: leveling, dailies, bounties, GSI, Dread Seed missions, datacrons, world bosses, conquest, world events, space missions, strongholds, flashpoints, etc, etc, etc. We hardcore raiders only have our raids. Please don't take that away from us.

 

Agree +1

[flaviusthelewd]

The new SMs are a joke I scoff at them weekly and look down upon Revan and Cora/Ruugar/Pearl in all of their lameness...The Dread Council ***** all over them, I'm sorry but Dread Council is probably one of my most favorite boss fights of any video game..The first time I saw all of them I was like Mind Blown, Look at all the mechanics 0.o Then we get these new Ops...And that Draxus?? The difficulty of Sms seems to have dropped drastically for sure

[Elyxin]

Fantastic thread folks, I wish we had more like this one in the forums.

 

I'm a player of middle ground. half my game time i can't focus 100% on the game, So I enjoy doing smaller things that i can leave for 10m at a time (solo stuff). other times i enjoy really trying and working on progression content. I was a hardcore raider in many MMO's in the past, and even in SWtOR. I remember back in the day when HM Black Talon was a "gear check" for entry level raiding, and back when you were happy to get a piece of tionese gear (no more blue!). EV was the testing grounds for many a guild...

 

I really think the issue isn't just the difficulty of SM Ops. It's also the gap right now between hitting 60 and getting into HM flashpoints and SM Ops. It may be just me...but didn't the last few expansions have a smoother transition between "hitting level cap" and actually being able to do the entry tier Ops? i hit 60, and i pretty much had my set of 186 gear. the comms i had got from running the expansion got me 80% of a full set of gear. but other then the dailies on the planets, we have the SM FP's and thats about it.

 

I think that the difference between the Op's now and the Op's before was the transition point. prior to this, the transition point for the Ops was HM. SM was where you learned mechanics, and got used to group dynamics for those bosses. HM was for people that actually wanted to step up their game.

 

Right now it's mixed up. SM Ops are for the progression minded, and HM FP's are a mixed bag...half people steamroll, the other half you can almost see the players shudder as the cut scene fades out. It shouldn't be that mixed up...and there should be a smoother transition between difficult as it pertains to gear. When you have groups in 192+augs that wipe on an HM FP, and those FP's are need to get to the SM Ops...it just seems a bit weird to me. and clunky. i almost didn't need to run the SM FP's...and the HM's are hit and miss...and SM Ops is out of the question if im PuGing. Im glad i joined a guild thats moderately active...but it seems like even casual guilds are running into issues in SM Ops.

 

I think that if they just went back to having the SM ops as a staging grounds, with HM being the barometer, things would flow allot smoother. and do something about BH and Rishi FP's...I had no problems with LI when it first came out, but thats because they had a whole different tier in the GF window for LI (think the other one was the rakghoul one...can't remember the name). that made sense. if they stuck rishi and BH in an elite FP category, it could also be a decent stepping stone like LI was when it first came out.

 

Honestly, I've been playing this game since early release, and this is the first time I've hit level cap, and felt like there wasn't a solid sense of direction. Maybe ill make it through that FP today...Maybe not. or Maybe ill just run old content like I've been doing this last year...

 

the new stuff isn't accessible as it used to be. even if you don't want huge rewards and accomplishments. even if you just want to see the story...it feels out of reach, when it didn't up to this point. although based on what im hearing, im not missing much story...