Those DPS who pull, go balls out and then blame the tank when you wipe....

[branmakmuffin]

Welp - this is one of the main issues I face as a DPS Jugg myself.

 

If I ever have to go GF when my guild isn't on - I get to play 20 questions before the run starts - and I get it - there are tons of bad DPS - but there are other times that people will flat out leave when i'm part of a GF - which is what is is - albeit annoying.

I'm not buying it that people announce they are leaving the group because you are in it. I've seen plenty of people drop group, but I have never seen anyone announce something like "I'm not playing with that guy" or "I'm not playing with a a DPS Juggernaut."

 

I don't do Ops so I will grant you that maybe it happens in Ops.

[souloferdrick]

There are awful players in every role.

[chrn]

I keep grouping with "tanks" who seem to think that they can just run around playing a stealth game, never pull ANY bosses, and then do things like stop mid fight to grab loot or secondary objectives rather than actually grabbing aggro from mobs or bosses. See that a lot on KDY.

 

Now of course, some folks will say "KDY is a tactical, and you don't *need* traditional roles" bla bla bla - but just how do you think people learn their roles exactly? Unless I'm with a group that I know is geared well enough and competent enough to fight fights correctly, I no longer just assume that anyone can run any tactical and not need to actually play their own role. Considering how many folks I have seen wipe in KDY, I can't imagine what it would be like to run an OP or FP that actually requires some level of knowledge with someone who never bothered to learn and play their class properly.

 

And...I know I'm not perfect. Lord knows due to having my own rotation not set up correctly my 1st encounter with the Underlurker didn't go so well, and I had to learn a lesson and took some criticism for it...and it just made me sit down and read through some walkthroughs and watch some vids to understand what I was doing wrong. I wonder how many people ever try and learn from these sorts of situations, or if they just keep rolling through these team based runs like little Leroy Jenkins'.

 

I can understand this. Generally when I run FPs I move pretty quickly. generally I don't warn or slow down unless it's requested by the healer. My main is a healer and I assume the tank is going to move fast. Experienced healers should know to be ready at all times. Paying attention is key to these games. I don't mind slowing down if someone says "hey, you're going to fast or I'm learning" etc etc though. I too don't like sitting in an FP for two hours when it should take 40 minutes unless I'm unfamiliar with said FP. This wasn't the case in this particular FP though. guy just ran ahead and started bashing crap.

[chrn]

The Tank should have aggro on everything, making them the only one taking damage because they can mitigate some of it, the healer has to keep them alive by spam healing them, which generates initial threat on anything that is aggro'd and doesn't initially get hit by the tank due to range issues or mid-fight spawns. This means guarding the healer is the best option to keep yourself alive IN FPs. Taking any and all stress off the healer means they can keep you alive longer, and odds are the DPS who may pull aggro should be aware and prepared to use their defensive CDs if they do. Honestly guard all depends on the individual fights you're about to pull, and can/should be swapped around accordingly, but the easiest answer in all FPs is to guard the healer if you're not able or willing to constantly swap it around.

 

To the OP:

If you're ever having issue holding threat off a DPS, be nice about it and accept blame. Just simply say "I'm having trouble holding threat off you, would you mind waiting a few seconds to start DPSing after I pull? It'll make this a lot easier on all of us." The biggest thing that holds groups back in Pugs is communication, most players out there are willing to work with people if they let them know up front what they're getting into. If you think you might not be geared for whatever you queued for, say so in chat. If you don't know the mechanics to a fight, say so in chat. If you've never been in that instance before, say so in chat. If you don't have much time and need it to be a quick run, say so in chat. If after you've said something to your group about your capabilities, they decide they don't want to run with you for whatever reason, then accept it and move on. Some players come in under geared or inexperienced, and others are elitests that expect every run to be as fast as possible. You can't control others, but you can at least let them know where you stand so you can try to find what works best for all of you.

 

I personally expect every run to be as fast as possible, but wont get upset if somebody tells me they need help before we start. I will either let them know I don't have time to do a slow run and ask them to replace me, or help instruct them on how to properly complete the content with the gear they're working with. Nothing wrong with either approach, and Group Finder isn't always perfect, sometimes the groups put together just aren't compatible with each other, and you have to be able to identify that and move on.

 

In the end it's creating an easier way to group people up than asking in random chats for exactly what type of run you're looking for. Try to find a guild or some like minded friends on your server that will run with you the way you want. Just have fun and don't take it seriously, it's a game.

 

Yes, normally I do do that. This guy however wasn't nice. He immediately started trash talk acting like he was God. I've seen the type before playing my healer. Basically, he's one of those DPSwho gets off on pulling aggro so he can brag that he's dpsing and tanking. Also, as I said, I was always able to pull threat off him but then the problem became the healer who was too busy spamming and not paying attention. However, in their defense they shouldn't have to deal with that in the first place. If it's a rough run for anyone in the group then that means someone isn't doing their job properly. This guy was literally pulling the trash while we were all still buffing each other. Then after. We'd get down to one or two mobs left and he'd run ahead and pull the next group. That's what we were dealing with.

Edited February 15, 2015 by chrn

[chrn]

I personally think all flashpoints and operations should be tactical based, but i am thinking most players are just afraid of change, i mean i love the whole tactical style, where you actually don't have to bow down to an arrogant ***** that does the tank role to get what they want, most healers are like that too, since tanks and healers are harder to get then dps are, so dps get spat on and *****ed at for the slightest thing, while tanks and healers get treated like royalty.

 

I tend to only do a flashpoint and a tactical once per day each for the commendations, any more then that is pointless and a waste of time, i think all flashpoints should be like KDY, as in you can do it, no matter your level, that it scales to your level........since KDY come out, that is the only one that tends to get done, since everything else requires a 30+ minutes wait.

 

I couldn't disagree with the first half of this more. Healers and tanks get blamed for everything when often it isn't their fault. This is natural though because they also hold the most responsibility for the success of the group as they are almost entirely responsible for keeping everyone alive. If you role a healer you learn this very quickly. Playing a tank or healer is the best way to really learn the dynamics of playing in a group. Especially as a healer. You're sitting back and watching everything in that role and can see everything going on. So when someone is f'ing up you can spot it very quickly.

[chrn]

If i'm in a Guild Run, I do blame the tanks, it's not my fault YOU can't do your job of getting threat. If my DPS is so balls to the wall then maybe you should learn to GUARD A *********** DPS... It frustrates me to no end when my raid team is in Coratanni and the Walkers and the DPS never get guarded... In the walkers, i'm the bomb carrier, shouldn't I get a guard to reduce my damage taken when it comes time for me to grab the bomb? And in Coratanni, healing that fight is so easy as is, i've had a good 20s before when I was healing on my Op healer where I was able to deal damage and nothing was able to out damage my Kolto Probes and Infusions.

 

In a nutshell: Tanks, learn to guard a DPS, Healers don't produce that much threat (0.5 threat per heal point on all targets in the fight) whereas DPS pull alot of threat (1 threat per damage point to the target being hit). Guard a DPS next time your in an Ops fight.

 

Gaurd goes on the healer. Period, if you're having to gaurd a DPS they're a sh***ty DPS. If you pull aaggro unintentionally as a DPS you ease DPS. Doesn't matter if the tank sucks or not. Let them regain control. They can take more punishment than you and them getting hit requires the healer to heal less. Healer is more important than a DPS always. Healer goes down you all die. Healer gets attacked and their health drops too much, they have to spam themselves and can't heal anyone else. Then one guy dies. Then the tank dies. Then you all die. Seen it a million times. This guy seems like the type of person I was writing in the original post.

Edited February 15, 2015 by chrn

[Frenesi]

Gaurd goes on the healer. Period, if you're having to gaurd a DPS they're a sh***ty DPS. If you pull aaggro unintentionally as a DPS you ease DPS. Doesn't matter if the tank sucks or not. Let them regain control. They can take more punishment than you and them getting hit requires the healer to heal less. Healer is more important than a DPS always. Healer goes down you all die. Healer gets attacked and their health drops too much, they have to spam themselves and can't heal anyone else. Then one guy dies. Then the tank dies. Then you all die. Seen it a million times. This guy seems like the type of person I was writing in the original post.

 

Complete BS. Under no circumstance you should lower DPS - or you risk enrage. All tanks are able to keep up with EVERY DPS aggro, and yes - guard exists for it. If they can't pool off you with taunts, guard and aggro drop - it's their problem.

 

Healer, on the other hand, is never able to pull off tank. Their aggro generation is ridiculously low. The only time healer can get aggro is when some mobs are completely ignored by tank or DPS, and this way pull will happen with or without guard. Since it's DPS job to intercept and kill such mobs - it's their problem, not heal or tank. And infamous damage reduction on guard is non-existant outside of PVP. Learn to read.

Edited February 15, 2015 by Frenesi

[Yezzan]

It's not a simple matter, and just blaming the tank or DPS is plain stupid. Who do you guard as a tank? The most likely person to steal agro, and in that case I would go with the highest geared DPS.

 

Trash mobs , for some reason, tends to head straight for the healer when spawned. Depths of Manaan, for example, the droids just head in the direction of the healer. OFC, the healer needs to run to where you are (under the fire possible) so you can protect them, and shift the threat to you.

 

Everyone has a drop-threat skill, they need to use it. Tanks and healers can do so much and no more. Everyone has to play their part. Use your defensive skills, and their abilities situational. If the healer is struggling, and you can off heal, do it, so that the healer can get a reprieve.

 

The idea is to be a team-player.

[FerkWork]

Gaurd goes on the healer. Period, if you're having to gaurd a DPS they're a sh***ty DPS. If you pull aaggro unintentionally as a DPS you ease DPS. Doesn't matter if the tank sucks or not. Let them regain control. They can take more punishment than you and them getting hit requires the healer to heal less. Healer is more important than a DPS always. Healer goes down you all die. Healer gets attacked and their health drops too much, they have to spam themselves and can't heal anyone else. Then one guy dies. Then the tank dies. Then you all die. Seen it a million times. This guy seems like the type of person I was writing in the original post.

 

When people ask me to guard a healer instead of a DPS because they are "more important"

[Loc_n_lol]

First sign is when they guard a healer. This tank apparently know nothing about threat generation.

Nah, most dps just arent good enough to steal aggro from a tank in the first place, so they don't need a guard.

Edited February 15, 2015 by Loc_n_lol

[DEuZZ]

Talking as an dps are some very poor tanks out there. Not talking about DPS pulling all, but i have played with "tanks" who focus on ONE target alone, while 2-3 other mobs runs around killing of the party 1 by 1.

 

A tank have the ability to get aggro from more then just one mob at the time, if he has brain that is. But tunnel vision at only 1 target at the time sais all about your tanking skills.

 

I even tryed to run to the tank for him to take the aggro away, guess what, he didn't. So you can rage at dps, but some people should learn how to tank as well!

Edited February 15, 2015 by DEuZZ

[souloferdrick]

IHealers and tanks get blamed for everything when often it isn't their fault. This is natural though because they also hold the most responsibility for the success of the group as they are almost entirely responsible for keeping everyone alive.

 

Everyone is equally responsible for the execution of their roles in a group setting.

[FerkWork]

Everyone is equally responsible for the execution of their roles in a group setting.

/thread

[Levram]

Gaurd goes on the healer. Period, if you're having to gaurd a DPS they're a sh***ty DPS. If you pull aaggro unintentionally as a DPS you ease DPS. Doesn't matter if the tank sucks or not. Let them regain control.

 

This advice is the opposite of what should be done in almost any circumstance. Threat generation from healers is very low and only mobs that are untouched by either the tank or DPS will aggro on a healer.

 

A tank should be guarding the DPS who generates threat high enough to cause problems for the tank to be able to hold aggro. If neither DPS is capable of pulling aggro, then the guard goes on the DPS who's the squishiest for the damage reduction.

 

Under no circumstances should DPS ever be asked to "ease DPS." That is the best way to A) have a tank never improve their gameplay, and B) fail at content. Maximum DPS should always be expected, unless there is a specific hit-point trigger mechanic on a boss or mob that is being carefully managed in a fight. Expecting DPS to use their threat reduction ability at the appropriate time, in coordination with the tank, is all that should be asked of them.

 

Tanks are provided with enough threat generation, that in combination with the appropriate use of taunts, can hold threat against any DPS output. Watch some videos from nightmare tanks that are clearing the new HM operations. They are successfully holding threat against some of the best DPS in the world.

And infamous damage reduction on guard is non-existant outside of PVP. Learn to read.

 

Actually, you need to take your own advice and learn to read the tool-tip for guard. The damage reduction aspect works in all content, including PvE. It is only the damage transfer mechanic that is specific to PvP, and requires the guarded player to be within 30 meters of the tank for it to work.

Edited February 15, 2015 by Levram

[Gertbeefrobe]

Talking as an dps are some very poor tanks out there. Not talking about DPS pulling all, but i have played with "tanks" who focus on ONE target alone, while 2-3 other mobs runs around killing of the party 1 by 1.

 

A tank have the ability to get aggro from more then just one mob at the time, if he has brain that is. But tunnel vision at only 1 target at the time sais all about your tanking skills.

 

I even tryed to run to the tank for him to take the aggro away, guess what, he didn't. So you can rage at dps, but some people should learn how to tank as well!

 

Situational. Is the tank focusing the harder mobs? Are those loose mobs weak and easy to kill? It's a damages job to clean the fight of any weak enemies before engaging heavier targets. This makes fights easier on heals and by proxy everyone else.

[Foambreaker]

Oh I know...but then they should actually lead. Not just stand there waiting for DPS to do their job for them and then not even attempting to do their job whatsoever. lol

 

Don't be so impatient, the whole horrible 3 seconds you have to wait won't kill you.

[Pagy]

The Tank should have aggro on everything, making them the only one taking damage because they can mitigate some of it, the healer has to keep them alive by spam healing them, which generates initial threat on anything that is aggro'd and doesn't initially get hit by the tank due to range issues or mid-fight spawns. This means guarding the healer is the best option to keep yourself alive IN FPs. Taking any and all stress off the healer means they can keep you alive longer, and odds are the DPS who may pull aggro should be aware and prepared to use their defensive CDs if they do. Honestly guard all depends on the individual fights you're about to pull, and can/should be swapped around accordingly, but the easiest answer in all FPs is to guard the healer if you're not able or willing to constantly swap it around.

yikes

 

this is why I dont do fps with pug tanks.

 

guarding a healer is the first clear sign that the tank has no idea how agro works. a healer will only be at the top of the threat list on untanked and undamaged mobs. giving them a threat reduction won't change this fact.

[Pagy]

Gaurd goes on the healer. Period, if you're having to gaurd a DPS they're a sh***ty DPS. If you pull aaggro unintentionally as a DPS you ease DPS.

when I read the op I thought to myself: while this dpser sounds bad I smell some signs of a terrible tank.

 

well looks like I was right.

 

guarding the healer...sigh dude....sigh. there are very rare exceptions where healers should be guarded.

 

and no if I'm pulling agro on a boss it means youre not generating threat well enough. period.

 

ive had tanks hold agro off me on every fight. and some tanks lose it to me even after I detaunt. youre saying its my fault? luls.

[Halinalle]

and no if I'm pulling agro on a boss it means youre not generating threat well enough. period.

 

Actually, smart tank uses bursty dps to buff their own threat. It requires well timed taunt every now and then.

If you do it properly, after 30 seconds or so it is almost impossible for dps to get to #1 on list.

Edited February 15, 2015 by Halinalle

[Max_Killjoy]

You could just title this thread "Why Killjoy gave up on heavy-duty group content in MMOs years ago".

[Frenesi]

 

Actually, you need to take your own advice and learn to read the tool-tip for guard. The damage reduction aspect works in all content, including PvE. It is only the damage transfer mechanic that is specific to PvP, and requires the guarded player to be within 30 meters of the tank for it to work.

 

My bad. Has it changed with 3.0, or am i having memory problems?

[DEuZZ]

Situational. Is the tank focusing the harder mobs? Are those loose mobs weak and easy to kill? It's a damages job to clean the fight of any weak enemies before engaging heavier targets. This makes fights easier on heals and by proxy everyone else.

 

If they was easy to kill i wouldn't have written that i tryed to run to tank to lose aggro. We died many times with that tank since he tunnel vision on one mob at the time. When ever its easy mobs we clear them out fast, at least i do.

[Pirana]

Gaurd goes on the healer. Period, if you're having to gaurd a DPS they're a sh***ty DPS. If you pull aaggro unintentionally as a DPS you ease DPS.

 

Incorrect on so many levels.

 

when I read the op I thought to myself: while this dpser sounds bad I smell some signs of a terrible tank.

 

well looks like I was right.

 

guarding the healer...sigh dude....sigh. there are very rare exceptions where healers should be guarded.

 

and no if I'm pulling agro on a boss it means youre not generating threat well enough. period.

 

ive had tanks hold agro off me on every fight. and some tanks lose it to me even after I detaunt. youre saying its my fault? luls.

 

My thoughts exactly.

[Kheldryn]

Have to agree with some people here.. Shielding a healer... Umm.. only if the healer is better geared than everyone else and has way too much healer aggro as a result (Or that they're overhealing), otherwise.. shield a DPS. I've played both sides (Heals and Tank), Typically I don't get shielded, and why should I be shielded when on my healer (A sage), I can "Bubble" myself to ignore damage or instantly reduce my aggro with the touch of a button. As for tanking, if I don't have most, if not all of the aggro, somethings wrong in a FP, during an OP its usually understandable, as i know my guildmates are better geared, so if I loose aggro its simple because they're putting out more damage, but I can usually steal aggro back with a well placed taunt.

 

Of course, the OP did state that the DPS pulled, which is not the DPS's job, sadly that's either the DPS not knowing his role, impatient or dumb as a post (possibly all 3). Like others here said, fairly typical in PUG groups. Kinda hit or miss in PUG matches.. then again GF sucks, I been thrown into FPs where GF set up the FP with 2 Tanks and 2 DPS, not one of us was a healer or had a healer role (2 Trooper Tanks, I was one, and 2 Sentinels), so BW can take half the blame for bad matches.

[TACeMossie]

I'd like to point out something: He states the DPS jumps in and goes all out, and then the OP (Tank) AoE taunts after this.

 

THEN OP STATES THAT THE DPS BUILDS SO MUCH AGGRO DURING THE TAUNT THAT WHEN IT WEARS OFF THE MOBS GO BACK TO THE DPS

 

Dear OP

 

Taunt is a multiplicative threat increase as well. If you can't hold aggro on a DPS thats run out of burst after you've taunted over his threat, you suck.

 

Note: The DPS shouldn't have been pulling before the tank, but regardless, the wipes there are your fault for not being able to hold aggro at all.

Edited February 16, 2015 by TACeMossie