Time to rethink your F2P model...

[Choloe]

You just have a knack for making generalizations, don't you? This is how you see things so that's how everybody else must do it or they're wrong. Your way isn't the only way and your broad generalization is way off base.

 

Why the hell not?? It's done to me so often enough on these forums by other idiots, I may as well be one when it comes to the "I'm too cheap to pay anything for the game you pay $12.49 - $15.00 a month for" crowd.

[Odlus]

Again, I'm sorry, but they have 14 levels to get 'drawn in'... If they can't make up their mind by the time they leave the starter planet, then you need to underastand thart they are too cheap to play the game in the first place.

 

I'm not sure where you got the impression from my post that they couldn't make up their mind. As I said, many of them DID make up their mind, and their decision was base experience was so frustrating that they weren't interested in putting any money in the game.

 

And you'll need to "underastand thart" just because someone doesn't throw money at the game after the first 2 hours of playing it doesn't mean they're "too cheap." The gamers I generally talk to and swap recommendations with aren't afraid to spend money on their hobbies. Quite a few of my friends are into CCGs and spend as much on card packs as many here spend on cartel packs. They just didn't see the point in spending money on a game that was actively making itself worse in an effort to frustrate them into spending money.

 

edit: And I really like how you're actually trying to act like you know my real life buddies and their spending habits better than I do. You can repeat your "too cheap" mantra all you want, it's not going to be any truer the next time than it was the last.

Edited February 2, 2015 by Odlus

[DesirableTom]

I wouldn't mind less restriction for F2P. Being a sub, and having been a sub for a long time now, it doesn't really affect me - and personally? I'd rather F2Ps experience more of the game, even if they can't afford to spend money on it like some of us do, than be restricted and turned away by all the restrictions.

 

That said, and I agree with whoever suggested there should be other levels. I don't remember who, and I'm a little too lazy to go back and look, but xD I've been subbed a long time, I've put a lot of money into buying CCs and such as well, and it really sucks that, should my financial situation ever drop to the point where I can't maintain my sub, none of that really means anything. You know?

[The-Kaitou-Kid]

Why the hell not?? It's done to me so often enough on these forums by other idiots, I may as well be one when it comes to the "I'm too cheap to pay anything for the game you pay $12.49 - $15.00 a month for" crowd.

 

Yes, because anybody who doesn't sub is "too cheap". You are seriously like a master of generalizations. You should write a book.

 

Also, just curious, have you ever heard the expression "Eye for an eye leaves the whole world blind"? Because somebody acts like that to you, that gives you some right to act like that to everybody else? No. That's not how things work. You're welcome to do it, of course, but you're also very welcome to get called out as the elitist child you're acting like.

Edited February 2, 2015 by The-Kaitou-Kid

[Kalfear]

There is no issue in F2P so great that $15.00/month will not completely solve

 

I never feel bad for F2P or Preferred status players.

 

They are freeloading a massive game for free

 

They already get far to much for free IMO.

Edited February 2, 2015 by Kalfear

[Choloe]

Yes, because anybody who doesn't sub is "too cheap". You are seriously like a master of generalizations. You should write a book.

 

Also, just curious, have you ever heard the expression "Eye for an eye leaves the whole world blind"? Because somebody acts like that to you, that gives you some right to act like that to everybody else? No. That's not how things work. You're welcome to do it, of course, but you're also very welcome to get called out as the elitist child you're acting like.

 

You are, unquestionably correct... Treating others as I have been treated is not justified. And, I sincerely apologize for that.

[Choloe]

There is no issue in F2P so great that $15.00/month will not completely solve

 

I never feel bad for F2P or Preferred status players.

 

They are freeloading a massive game for free

 

They already get far to much for free IMO.

 

ROFL, I guess I should have worded my reply this way.

[theUndead]

Honestly, it's really not that much better. The whole model seems very petulant to me.

 

Like I said, if you can afford a computer, you can afford a sub. Yet saying that, I will concede that some of the restrictions are poorly thought out. This includes the accepting loot rule which I think is stupid. On that note let me tell you a quick story. I was away overseas for two months and well I spent the majority of my entertainment budget on that trip. I am not complaining as that was just the way it was. Yet when I got home, I could not sub immediately. So I tried preferred and after about an hour playing I turned it off.

 

I would rather wait till I can sub and not deal with those things then suffer through them and because of that despite some I disagree with, the F2P model did it's job which was to get me to sub.

[Sikknasty]

Like I said, if you can afford a computer, you can afford a sub.

 

what if a parent buys a kid a computer/laptop for graduation n doesn't have enough money for a game because he is starting college or moving into his/her own place?

 

not every 1 has the money but wish that they did

 

that is just 1 of many examples I could give

Edited February 2, 2015 by Sikknasty

[Reofeir]

Preferred players are former subscribers or anyone who spends at least $5 for Cartel Coins. No one STARTS as preferred.

 

True, but honestly even if they paid once (previous subscriber or just $5 at one point) at this point they do not give money to the game unless they pay for cartel coins or return as a sub. The reason I wish for a few less restrictions in odd things is because we want them to either continue buying cartel coins or one day purchase a sub for end game content. Bad restrictions make people leave, and some of those restrictions even as preferred are bad.

 

And even for F2P, I'm willing to let people get a very fun and non annoying experience for free for the chance of few of them ending up spending quite a lot on this game because they love it.

[Odlus]

ROFL, I guess I should have worded my reply this way.

 

Preferred players have spent money on the game, so they're definitely not "freeloading for free." And that post is still missing the point that incentives are more likely to get people to spend money than restrictions are.

 

Not to mention the subtler point that even if a player never spends a single cent on the game, that player is still providing value to the game by being active in it. MMOs live or die based on how active the player base, and a player who continues playing without ever spending any money on it is more valuable to the game than a player who subscribed for a month then stopped and never came back (no one wants to invest money in a MMO that appears dead). Plus there's the fact that free players indirectly increase the amount of money being spent on the game due subscribers buying things like weekly passes to sell on the GTN to free players.

 

The idea that free players add nothing to the game and are simply "freeloaders" is extremely shortsighted.

[LordArtemis]

I have mentioned suggested improvements to the F2P system many times. Unfortunately I can no longer repeat them because I am likely soon to be one of them, so to do so would be self serving.

[Mowermanx]

I'm not sure where you got the impression from my post that they couldn't make up their mind. As I said, many of them DID make up their mind, and their decision was base experience was so frustrating that they weren't interested in putting any money in the game.

 

And you'll need to "underastand thart" just because someone doesn't throw money at the game after the first 2 hours of playing it doesn't mean they're "too cheap." The gamers I generally talk to and swap recommendations with aren't afraid to spend money on their hobbies. Quite a few of my friends are into CCGs and spend as much on card packs as many here spend on cartel packs. They just didn't see the point in spending money on a game that was actively making itself worse in an effort to frustrate them into spending money.

 

edit: And I really like how you're actually trying to act like you know my real life buddies and their spending habits better than I do. You can repeat your "too cheap" mantra all you want, it's not going to be any truer the next time than it was the last.

 

Serious question, what do these fabled people do with other games at the shop, you don't even get to try them, you have to make a decision wholly on reviews and what is written on the website? and/or shell out the $50/100 to try it.

 

By the time you finish the capitol planet, you will have seen all the restrictions that are in place, then its up to you, as a consumer, to decide if you think its worth the fee to remove those restrictions, either by purchasing individual unlocks that you want most, or buy a 60 day time card and remove them all.

Other games do it differently, but there's nothing wrong with this system in my opinion.

Edited February 2, 2015 by Mowermanx

[Odlus]

Serious question, what do these fabled people do with other games at the shop, you don't even get to try them, you have to make a decision wholly on reviews and what is written on the website? and/or shell out the $50/100 to try it.

 

You're trying to make a false equivalency here. If a game doesn't have a demo or free trial then there are ways to learn about that game before you buy it. If it DOES provide a demo or free trial then it's assumed people will judge the game through that. If the demo is not enjoyable then there's no reason to buy the full game.

 

By the time you finish the capitol planet, you will have seen all the restrictions that are in place, then its up to you, as a consumer, to decide if you think its worth the fee to remove those restrictions, either by purchasing individual unlocks that you want most, or buy a 60 time card and remove them all.

 

Yes, and what I said is that many people choose not to bother removing those restrictions because the idea of spending money just to remove a penalty is not appealing. The kind of developer who feels the best way to get people to spend money on their game is to frustrate them into it isn't the kind of developer many people feel they could trust to run a MMO they would potentially invest months/years of their time into.

 

Go to any general MMO/gaming discussion site and look at what people say about TOR when it comes up. Once you get past the "DAE hate EA" or "I wanted KOTOR 3 not a stupid MMO" posts, the thing that always dominates the discussion is how off-putting the restrictions are. Lots of MMO players will see that hotbars, a core UI feature, are locked behind a pay-wall and immediately write the game off right there, and I can't really blame them for it.

Edited February 2, 2015 by Odlus

[Brayla_Sana]

Even though this thoughtful post has since turned into a flame war, I will try to make an intelligent post anyway. My husband and I were both Preorder Collector's edition subscribers at the beginning of this game. Now, I have resubbed but he does not play at all. Why? because he does not play enough to pay a sub, but the F2P and Preferred credit cap is so poor, he would rather not play at all.

 

I can understand the credit caps to prevent gold farmers from going hog wild, but let's be reasonable here. A F2P cap of 500k and a preferred cap of 5 mil or so would be high enough for players to buy things and deck out their strongholds. I also think the crew skill mission caps should be removed for f2p. The rest of the restrictions are fine.

[theUndead]

what if a parent buys a kid a computer/laptop for graduation n doesn't have enough money for a game because he is starting college or moving into his/her own place?

 

not every 1 has the money but wish that they did

 

that is just 1 of many examples I could give

 

That is all well and good but irrelevant to the discussion. What is being discussed is this notion of a person who A) has a computer, B) posts on the forum, C) says that F2P should have less restrictions yet has enough money for what I mentioned.

 

No one said anything about how a person can be tight on money, but rather if people who can afford it, have a right to demand things be changed.

Edited February 2, 2015 by theUndead

[Mowermanx]

You're trying to make a false equivalency here. If a game doesn't have a demo or free trial then there are ways to learn about that game before you buy it. If it DOES provide a demo or free trial then it's assumed people will judge the game through that. If the demo is not enjoyable then there's no reason to buy the full game.

Tell me why that same principle doesn't apply here? I fail to grasp the difference, you try before you buy. And I'll repeat, if you haven't worked that out by the time you've finished the capitol, I don't think you ever will.

You either think its worth the money or you dont. Its not a difficult concept.

 

 

Yes, and what I said is that many people choose not to bother removing those restrictions because the idea of spending money just to remove a penalty is not appealing.

This is the crux of your argument... They choose not to.

You say, to remove a penalty, they say, to play the game and keep the doors open.

[Knorlac]

what if a parent buys a kid a computer/laptop for graduation n doesn't have enough money for a game because he is starting college or moving into his/her own place?

 

not every 1 has the money but wish that they did

 

that is just 1 of many examples I could give

 

If they don't have the 12.99€/15.00$ to spend I truly pity them...not because they're unable to play a MMO, but because they're probably having trouble to even feed themselves and are starving.

[Odlus]

Tell me why that same principle doesn't apply here?

 

The same principle DOES apply here, that was the entire point of the part of my post that you quoted. If a free trial is made available then people will judge the game based on it, including all of the restrictions the developers chose to put in place.

 

You either think its worth the money or you dont. Its not a difficult concept..

 

You're right, it's NOT a difficult concept, so I don't know why you keep going back to it when I've already addressed it. I've personally witnessed many people decide the game is not worth spending money on because they were so turned off by the restrictions. I've read many more online posts from people saying they left the game for similar reasons. You can disagree with me on whether you feel anything should be changed and I'll gladly have a civil discussion with you about that if you'll allow it, but this conversation is going to end right here if you're just going to keep acting like I don't know what I'm talking about and make me repeat myself over and over simply because you either can not or will not understand the clear point I'm making.

 

People spend money on things they think are worth spending money on, and don't spend money on things they don't think are worth spending money on. Now that we've both agreed on this point, how about we turn the discussion towards potential reasons why people may feel the game isn't worth spending money on, and what the game could do to make them feel otherwise. Which is, you know, the actual topic of this thread/discussion.

Edited February 2, 2015 by Odlus

[BrintoSFJ]

Those aren't even close to the things that are dumb about F2P.

 

Unifying Colors & Hiding Head Slot should be F2P. I literally pay $15/month so my characters don't look awful. It's really dumb.

 

Also, half exp past a certain level = retarded.

 

Also quickbar restriction should not exist. they are standard UI option, many free mmorpg these days come out with even 8-12 quickbars and we only have 6 and even they are being monetized. it seems since the name "star wars" added to the game it is perfectly alright to monetize things that should never be monetized. If a game goes free 2 play it's player base goes up 100 fold and it only continues to go up, for swtor that did not happen, staying in queue for pvp and even tactical fp for more than 20 minutes on most servers says the f2p model failed.

What they should have done : -

1. Blocked Jedi Knight, Jedi Consular, Sith Warrior, Sith Inquisitor class and put a 25$ price tag on each of them. Everybody wants to play those classes, giving them away for free was a mistake and no matter how they wanna monetize quick bar or title or head slot they can never attract that much players to actually buy these because if anything mmo players are adaptive and can even ignore such things totally and play like nothing is wrong in world.

2. Allowed f2p unlimited access to game up to 50 so that when a subscriber wants to start a new playthrough s/he doesn't have to stay in fp or pvp queue for hours.

3. Allowed them more credits and trade ability so that we could sell some stuff directly to them and also sell some pricy stuff to them to keep the economy running even at 50 mark. we would not have to lower the prices of 50 end game items because they would still have high demand among f2p.

Chat restriction can be removed too and maybe optimize a few others but those above would have benefitted us subscribers a lot.

[BrintoSFJ]

The same principle DOES apply here, that was the entire point of the part of my post that you quoted. If a free trial is made available then people will judge the game based on it, including all of the restrictions the developers chose to put in place.

 

 

 

You're right, it's NOT a difficult concept, so I don't know why you keep going back to it when I've already addressed it. I've personally witnessed many people decide the game is not worth spending money on because they were so turned off by the restrictions. I've read many more online posts from people saying they left the game for similar reasons. You can disagree with me on whether you feel anything should be changed and I'll gladly have a civil discussion with you about that if you'll allow it, but this conversation is going to end right here if you're just going to keep acting like I don't know what I'm talking about and make me repeat myself over and over simply because you either can not or will not understand the clear point I'm making.

 

People spend money on things they think are worth spending money on, and don't spend money on things they don't think are worth spending money on. Now that we've both agreed on this point, how about we turn the discussion towards potential reasons why people may feel the game isn't worth spending money on, and what the game could do to make them feel otherwise. Which is, you know, the actual topic of this thread/discussion.

Ok so current f2p model is a free trial to judge the game. i am a free trial, i enter the game, create a toon, ohh i got jedi and sith, i got both for free, how nice!! let's play sith, i continue to play, get stuck in a heroic quest and try to ask for help but chat is restricted until level 10, ok i can work it out, let's wait and see if anyone comes close i will use proximity chat to get attention. ok got that heroic down, let's play more.

keep going until i get a helmet, my 1st reaction : fugly ****... let's hide it..ouch i can't..i have to pay to hide..ok...let's stay fugly..i am playing for free after all.

after going through lots of hardship i finally completed my 4th flashpoint and i can not even roll for reward since i am f2p despite contributing fully to the boss battle same as the subscriber in my group...well this is disappointing, since i won't be able to get any reward i won't be doing any fp again until next week, ohh wait scratch that even if i do fp only 3 loot limit won't really give me any higher chance to get some good loot..**** the fp, i will just stick to planetary quests and buy gears from planetary vendor.

finally managed to compelete chapter 1 and i could not accept any of the rewards because i am f2p..ok.let's continue..i am now level 35 and got some new skills, ummm...i am out of quickbar and i will have to pay to get quick bars. ***!!!! quickbar??? really? what kind of cheap bastard monetize quickbar?

And that is the point where more than 90% f2p leaves the game, because they don't want to deal with people who are even more of a cheap bastard than them. there ends the judging of swtor. i am glad someone understands that beside me.

Edited February 2, 2015 by BrintoSFJ

[Mowermanx]

The same principle DOES apply here, that was the entire point of the part of my post that you quoted. If a free trial is made available then people will judge the game based on it, including all of the restrictions the developers chose to put in place.

Well, that's a ridiculous notion, as its clearly stated what is restricted to non subs.

That's like saying that because a demo only goes for 5 mins, that the game is no good because its too short.

If you're so anal about that and not actually looking at gameplay features to make a judgment, I dont know what to say, other than its not a demographic that I would be looking to entice to my game, and EA probably shares the same opinion.

[Jeweledleah]

I could not care less about the 'economy' of the game. I pay my subscription, I enjoy the game, but giving a moocher more because they can't afford to play the game? Sorry, I have no sympathy for them. Pay $5 and become preferred. If you can't do that, you're QQing to the wrong people.

 

except the difference between preferred and f2p is nearly nonexistent. you still cannot accept a lot of the quest rewards. your chat is still limited. and even if you buy all the unlocks, you know extra skill bars, unify colors, titles, etc - you are still limited. even as a paying customer, you are limited.

 

so there's my friend, who I admit I dragged into this game to play with me (he tried to get me to play rift, but it didn't quite stick) a friend who is actualy financially strapped, but still managed to scrape up 20 bucks to buy shadow of revan. a friend who cannot get those basic com rewards, cannot get those companion gear boxes, despite doing every quest in sight with xp boosts (and including forged alliances) I sent his way - still falling short of reaching lvl 55 by about a level, thanks to xp nerf.

 

literally, the fact that I play this game is pretty much the only reason he still plays. the two of us tried out a lot of different games, a lot of them f2p, some buy to play with subscription optional. the only game that I can think of that came sorta close to the level of nickle and dimeing that TOR does - was LOTRO. and even then, it was nowhere NEAR that bad.

[Jeweledleah]

I think there's a difference between an F2P model that rewards a player for subscribing and one that punishes a player for not. That difference may be subtle, but it's there. EA's F2P model nickels and dimes you more than almost any other F2P MMO model, really.

 

You really get the sense that EA introduced the F2P model in a grudging and petulant "we don't really want to do this, but we're forced to, so we're going to make it as difficult as we can" sort of way.

 

I mean, I'm a subscriber and have been since launch. CE and all the trimmings, etc etc. I'm unlikely to unsub, at least in the foreseeable future, so it doesn't really affect me, but I can't help feeling that unlike many other F2P models, EA's model has insincere and petty written all over it.

 

pretty much.

 

and the thing is... SWTOR went f2p becasue they needed more players. because even those who continued to stay, needed more poeple to play with and were leaving becasue those people weren't there. consolidating servers was a first move, but by the time they did that it was already too late. so no, continuing to push people away is NOT in bioware's interests. and its certainly NOT in interests if subscribers, seeing as if you all want to keep playing this game? it needs to retain players and it need to encourage them to want to pay, instead of pushing them away through pettiness

[Knorlac]

Ok so current f2p model is a free trial to judge the game. i am a free trial, i enter the game, create a toon, ohh i got jedi and sith, i got both for free, how nice!! let's play sith, i continue to play, get stuck in a heroic quest and try to ask for help but chat is restricted until level 10, ok i can work it out, let's wait and see if anyone comes close i will use proximity chat to get attention. ok got that heroic down, let's play more.

keep going until i get a helmet, my 1st reaction : fugly ****... let's hide it..ouch i can't..i have to pay to hide..ok...let's stay fugly..i am playing for free after all.

after going through lots of hardship i finally completed my 4th flashpoint and i can not even roll for reward since i am f2p despite contributing fully to the boss battle same as the subscriber in my group...well this is disappointing, since i won't be able to get any reward i won't be doing any fp again until next week, ohh wait scratch that even if i do fp only 3 loot limit won't really give me any higher chance to get some good loot..**** the fp, i will just stick to planetary quests and buy gears from planetary vendor.

finally managed to compelete chapter 1 and i could not accept any of the rewards because i am f2p..ok.let's continue..i am now level 35 and got some new skills, ummm...i am out of quickbar and i will have to pay to get quick bars. ***!!!! quickbar??? really? what kind of cheap bastard monetize quickbar?

And that is the point where more than 90% f2p leaves the game, because they don't want to deal with people who are even more of a cheap bastard than them. there ends the judging of swtor. i am glad someone understands that beside me.

 

What you wrote here already totally exceeds what I'd consider a reasonable amount of time to find out if you like the game. Lvl 35? Seriously? By the time you finish the starter planet and your faction's capital world, you've already sunken more hours into it than some full priced SP games offer.

 

So at this point, you either spend some cash to lift the restrictions that bother you most or sub. BW/EA are NOT a charity.